Thursday Volume 565 4 July 2013 No. 29

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 4 July 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1037 4 JULY 2013 1038

if one has more than six dogs, one requires planning House of Commons permission? We should not be too prescriptive here—if I want to own a number of pugs, it should not be for the Thursday 4 July 2013 state to tell me whether I should own two or four pugs, providing those pugs behave themselves properly.

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Mr Heath: My hon. Friend has stated the position exactly. Irrespective of the number of pugs he has in his possession, the key thing is whether he is a responsible PRAYERS owner of those dogs, whether he has them under proper control and whether they represent a danger to himself [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] and his neighbours. Mr Speaker: It would be a bit worrying if the Second Church Estates Commissioner, of all people, were other Oral Answers to Questions than a responsible owner.

Endangered Species

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS 2. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effects of UK policy on the protection The Secretary of State was asked— of endangered species worldwide. [163115] Dogs TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): The UK is an 1. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What assessment influential leader in the protection of endangered species, he has made of the effectiveness of measures to control through our own actions as well as our input to relevant the number of dogs being kept within a domestic global agreements. For example, we recently helped to property. [163114] secure additional protection for various marine and timber species through the convention on international The Minister of State, Department for Environment, trade in endangered species. The UK has contributed to Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): While there various assessments of global biodiversity, but it is are no measures that control the number of dogs kept difficult to assess the effects of one country’s policies on a single property, a number of laws regulate the alone. effects of keeping animals, which include welfare, cruelty, safety and environmental effects. Furthermore, the Anti- John Mann: We used to be a great leader on this issue, social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, with which but now we do not even properly fund wildlife crime the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) is very prevention in this country, despite the change to the law familiar, had its Commons Second Reading on 10 June that I successfully moved under the previous Government. and it provides further measures to help tackle irresponsible Why do we have almost silence from this Government dog owners. on protecting endangered species and promoting the issue abroad? Julie Hilling: Following the tragic death of Jade Lomas Anderson, my constituents in Atherton and Richard Benyon: The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. across Bolton West believe that more should be done to We have funded the wildlife crime unit, which does reduce the number of dogs in houses where they create great work, both at home and abroad; we have been a a nuisance and create fear, because of their ferociousness. leader in global forums on dealing with international Will the Minister amend the current legislation so that crime—for example, we have co-funded Project Wisdom, there are specific clauses whereby owners can be made through Interpol, to tackle the illegal trade in endangered to reduce the number of dogs if they are causing fear species; we are involved in a variety of different operations and potential danger? in Africa and other range states to protect wildlife species; and the expertise we have at home is part of a Mr Heath: I am aware that the hon. Lady has tabled fantastic partnership between the UK Border Agency, amendments to the Bill exactly to that purpose, and the police and various other agencies, which other countries they will be considered in Committee. I do not wish to come to look at. pre-empt that discussion, but she will know that our view is that the antisocial behaviour orders available in Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): My hon. the Bill, on which guidance will be available shortly Friend will be aware of the key role that Chester zoo is following discussions with all the appropriate authorities, playing in the “If They’re Gone” campaign, whereby it will deal with the very nuisances that she seeks to is leading on orangutans and it has orangutan month in remedy. August. Will he tell us about the key role the campaign is playing in promoting awareness in the UK? Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Of course it is right that the legislation should protect postal workers Richard Benyon: The “If They’re Gone” campaign is and utility workers, and make provision against antisocial one of the highlights of what this country is doing in behaviour. But may I just tell my hon. Friend that there giving leadership. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of is actually High Court authority—a settled law—whereby State has launched the rhino part of the campaign, and 1039 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1040 the elephant part highlights the importance of making The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural people aware of the risks that ivory poaching poses to Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The new CAP framework that species. The next phase is the orangutan phase. The through pillar two provides a good basis, with a range orangutan is an endangered species and this country is of tools to help us, to improve the environment and our determined, through our footprint abroad and in terms biodiversity. Farmers and other land managers already of the palm oil we all use—making sure we are responsible provide a range of environmental benefits. The new at home and abroad—to protect that very special species. arrangements will allow us to enhance the effectiveness of existing schemes and consider new approaches that Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): The contribute to our “Biodiversity 2020”quantified outcomes. Minister mentioned rhinos and elephants and recent reports have shown that terrorists are slaughtering those Kerry McCarthy: Will the Secretary of State now animals to raise revenue for terrorism. In making their make good on his promise of public money for public assessment, will the UK Government link up with the good and ensure that the new CAP is implemented in experts in counter-terrorism in the Foreign Office to the most effective way possible by maximising the transfer ensure that we make as big a contribution as possible to of funds from pillar one to pillar two, ensuring a central stopping that dreadful trade? role for agri-environment schemes and implementing an ambitious approach to the greening of pillar one funding? Richard Benyon: The Foreign Secretary recently convened a meeting of Ministers to do in this country precisely Mr Paterson: I am happy to confirm my long-standing what is happening in the United States. There has been belief that we should transfer 15% from pillar one to a realisation that this is not just an environmental pillar two. Our pillar two schemes do real good for the problem—it is about security, too. In large parts of environment and 70% of our arable land uses those Africa, organisations such as al-Shabaab and the Lord’s schemes. We also need to develop new schemes, as 30% Resistance Army are helping to finance the evil they do of the new pillar one will depend on greening. We also through this trade. There is a realisation that we need a have a guarantee, which we drove through the negotiations, cross-government approach and that was the basis of that 30% of the rural development funds will be spent the event that the Prince of Wales hosted at Clarence on the environment. house. We will formulate that approach in a meeting later this year to ensure that we are co-ordinating things Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): The settlement across government while pooling resources with other for farmers across Britain is a tough one and they need Governments to ensure that we are doing precisely what to compete in a single market with all their continental the hon. Gentleman suggests. competitors. Can we ensure that we implement our part of the single farm payment in this country in the most Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Of course, sympathetic way possible so that we can have effective the largest area on the planet’s surface given over to the and competitive food production? protection of endangered species is the Chagos marine protected area, which we established when we were last Mr Paterson: My hon. Friend is right to raise that in government. The Pitcairn governing Council and the point. I have said on many occasions—I frequently Bermudan Government are now asking the UK to repeated myself during the negotiations—that we must designate marine protected areas in the south Pacific ensure that the way in which we impose CAP reform is and the Sargasso sea. What technical assistance will the simple and easy to understand. We will not make the Minister’s Department give to ensure that those excellent mistakes of the previous Government, who caught us proposals become a reality? up in a horribly complex system that cost us ¤590 million in what the EU calls disallowances but in what I would Richard Benyon: First, let me congratulate the hon. call a fine. Gentleman on his appointment to the Front Bench; I am sure that he will adorn it with his skills. I think that he is the sixth shadow Minister in opposition to me, and Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May he is very welcome. I urge the Secretary of State to be a champion of joined-up government? The G8 settlement on social The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The scheme impact investment was a breath of fresh air; can it link in the Chagos islands is exemplary and we want to see to anything in the CAP settlement, so we can get some such schemes developed throughout the overseas territories. serious social impact investment in the rural economy? There are already plans to see proper marine protection around St Helena and a very exciting project in South Georgia. I want to see a necklace of marine protected Mr Paterson: As I told the hon. Member for Bristol areas that can be this country’s legacy from our imperial East (Kerry McCarthy), we intend to modulate 15% into past to the future protection of marine zones. pillar two, and there are real benefits for the rural economy, the rural environment and rural society from our rural development programme for England schemes. Common Agricultural Policy Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Upland 3. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What farms in the UK, particularly those in England, are assessment he has made of the effects of the final good at delivering environmental objectives. What will common agricultural policy settlement on the UK’s the reformed CAP do to ensure that upland farms ability to achieve its environmental objectives and 2020 maintain their financial viability, so they can continue targets. [163116] to deliver those public goods? 1041 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1042

Mr Paterson: I confirm again my belief that because Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman is mixing up food in parts of the UK, such as upland areas, it is tough to security and affordability, and the two are not exactly make a living purely from food production, there is a the same. I answered his original question about food significant role for taxpayers’ money to be spent on security, on which this country is in a pretty good environmental schemes supporting the valuable work position. However, rising food prices are a real problem upland farmers do to protect and improve the environment, for many families across the country. The factors that upon which sits a tourism industry worth £33 billion. affect food prices, which include commodity and oil prices and currency changes, are largely out of the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The “State control of any single country. We need to make sure of Nature”report produced by 25 major UK conservation that, as he says, we boost UK production as much as organisations found that 60% of UK species reliant on possible and make affordable food available on our farmlands are in decline. Does the Secretary of State shelves, and that is exactly what the Government are agree that there has been concern about a shortage of doing. funding for high nature value farming areas? What steps will he take to support farmers so that they can Andy Sawford: The 700 children in food poverty in continue to produce high-quality food in those areas my constituency and their parents would find the Minister’s and protect threatened species as well? answer that we are in “a pretty good position” incredibly complacent. I have visited the food bank in Corby, and Mr Paterson: I think the hon. Lady knows that we get the people there attribute the massive rise in the number real value out of our existing higher level stewardship of people coming to them directly to this Government’s scheme. As I made clear in previous replies, I will economic and social policies. Will the Minister visit the endorse the transfer of money from pillar one to pillar Mustard Seed food bank in his constituency to find out two for environmental schemes, which will bring real why demand is rising so quickly? benefits to our biodiversity and the species about which she is concerned. Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands the meaning of the term “food security”, which was the Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): The financial question I was asked and gave a response to. I have said viability of smaller farmers in Warwickshire is of concern. clearly that there is an issue about rising food prices and What reassurance can the Secretary of State give my about poverty across the country, and the fact that smaller farmers that transfers from pillar one to pillar families sometimes find it difficult to buy the food that two will not cause them hardship? they need. If he thinks there is a direct correlation between the number of food banks and poverty, will he Mr Paterson: It is simple: the funds will be spent on explain why the number of food banks increased by projects related to agriculture and the rural environment more than 10 times during the previous Administration? and economy, and farmers both small and large will Was that the result of the same factors or not? benefit from the transfer of the funds. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): With world Food Insecurity population set to rise to 9 billion, we need to nearly double world food production with half as much land, 5. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): energy and water. Does the Minister agree that British What assessment he has made of trends in levels of agriculture science and research from GM to a range of food insecurity in the UK since 2010. [163118] other technologies has a major part to play in helping us feed the world? 11. Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): What assessment he has made of trends in levels of food insecurity in the Mr Heath: It is absolutely right that we have the UK since 2010. [163125] know-how in this country to exploit a wide range of technologies which could make a real difference to The Minister of State, Department for Environment, being able to feed the rising population not just in this Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): The UK food country, but across the world. I hope the agri-tech security assessment published in 2010 is a detailed strategy that we are in the process of launching will analysis of the global and domestic factors affecting make a real difference in getting research into the right UK food security, including productivity, supply, areas, making that usable in terms of applicability, and affordability and safety. The Government continue to then sharing that expertise with those people who can monitor trends, but overall the assessment concludes put it into effect on the ground. that the UK is well placed to deal with future challenges. In 2012, officials reassessed the report and concluded Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I very much that it still represents a robust analysis of food security agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk in the UK. (George Freeman), who asked the last question. Does the Minister agree, in addition, that the use of otherwise Mr Bain: This week, The Economist’s global food productive land for biofuels in particular and for solar security index ranked the UK 20th this year, behind power is a waste of perfectly useful productive agricultural Germany, France and Spain. Can the Minister confirm land, and that we ought to minimise those things and that food prices in this country rose by more than 4% in maximise the amount that we can produce in this country? the year to May? In the absence of a strong plan from the Government to boost lower-cost, home-grown food, Mr Heath: We have to get the balance right between is it not the poorest who bear the largest share of the land that is used for energy, which we need—let us not burden? get away from that—and land that is best used for food 1043 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1044 production. Those decisions are often best taken at I hope that when the detail is worked out with the local level. Nevertheless, I am conscious of the need to representatives of the farming unions, they will see that make full use of good agricultural land for food production. we stood by British farming and stopped a lot of really bad things coming through this reform. Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): The Minister’s complacency and definitional hair-splitting on the issue Several hon. Members rose— of food insecurity, at a time when half a million people were fed in this country by food banks will go down Mr Speaker: Order. I am keen to get through another very badly outside this place. This week, his ministerial half a dozen questions, if possible, so we need to speed colleague in the other place said it was difficult to make up. the causal connections between the benefits squeeze and the soaring use of food banks, yet the Trussell Trust Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Does the Secretary says that 45% of the people who need the help of its 300 of State agree that the best possible reform of the CAP food banks have come because of benefit delays or would be to return agricultural policy to member states? benefit changes. Which of those statements is true? Will the issue of agriculture be on the table when the Prime Minister renegotiates our relationship with Europe? Mr Heath: I am sorry that the hon. Lady fails to understand the terms that she obviously fed to her Back Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman knows that I am a Benchers to ask me about. Food security is a well strong supporter of being able to make more decisions understood concept. We are talking about feeding the on these matters in this House. It might reassure him to world. We are not talking about food prices in the UK, know that this reform means that a lot more decisions but food prices in the UK are a very serious issue and will be made locally, so there will be, in effect, an not, I think, a matter on which to try to score political English CAP and each of the regions, which were very points. I am grateful to the various charities which help keen to be able to make decisions, will have power to those who find themselves in difficulties. It is important decide on all four regulations. that we support that in every way we can. I notice that the hon. Lady, with some fanfare, issued a policy review Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): last night, “Feeding the Nation”, which supports virtually The key will be how the reform is implemented in this all our policies. I give her just one word of advice. If you country. Will the Secretary of State assure the House are going to mention one of our great British cheeses, that the active farmer will remain the main beneficiary, get the name right: it is single Gloucester, not single particularly those in the uplands, tenant farmers and Gloucestershire. commoners whose animals graze on common land? Common Agricultural Policy Mr Paterson: Emphatically, yes: I am very happy to confirm to the Chair of the Environment, Food and 6. Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): What Rural Affairs Committee that, as we work out the detail recent progress has been made on reform of the of the implementation of the reform in England, our common agricultural policy. [163119] drive will be to ensure that the agricultural sector gains from it. As I made clear in my comments on pillar two, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural we want to direct this towards rural areas in a way that Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): At the Agriculture and benefits the rural environment and rural farmers. Fisheries Council on 26 June political agreement was reached on the CAP reform regulations. Overall the Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is, of course, right CAP package does not represent a significant reform, that public money should be spent on public goods. At but we substantially improved the Commission’s original a time of severe austerity, what public good is there in proposals and fended off attempts by others to introduce spending hundreds of thousands of pounds—indeed, a number of regressive measures. By agreeing to the £1 million cheques—on large landowners who do not regulations now, we are able to provide certainty to need the money? farmers and paying agencies.

Mr Robertson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend Mr Paterson: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. for that answer and congratulate him on his work at the The fact is that we are going from 7 billion to 9 billion council. Will he enlighten the House on what those people. There has been complacency in this country regressive measures were, because my farmers remain over recent years, because there was unlimited, safe and very concerned that they will be worse off as a result of easily accessible food to be bought abroad. We want to some of the changes compared with their continental make sure that we have an extremely efficient, high-tech competitors? agricultural sector producing food. I take food security extremely seriously and welcome large, efficient farmers. Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity to enlighten the House. It Marine Conservation Zones was extraordinary that at a very late stage in negotiations the European Parliament made moves to penalise the 7. Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): What most efficient dairy processors and reward the least progress his Department is making on the establishment efficient. There were extraordinary moves as late as last of marine conservation zones. [163120] Monday night to introduce coupled payments for tobacco, pigs, poultry and cotton. I think the UK played a part, TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, working closely with our allies, and we saw off a number Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): We are analysing of other regressive measures, such as double funding. all the responses and evidence submitted following the 1045 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1046 recent consultation before making final decisions on he actively encourage people who live in flood-prone designating the first tranche of marine conservation areas to take up the capped premiums and not risk zones later this year. being uninsured?

Sir Andrew Stunell: I thank the Minister for that Richard Benyon: My right hon. Friend should take a reply. He will know that the Select Committee was large slice of the credit for the deal that we have achieved. getting a bit frustrated about this, and the Government’s She worked hard to set in train something that the response to the Committee did not improve the situation. previous Government did not even look at, which is a Does the Minister understand that there is real frustration successor to the statement of principles. I assure her about the slow speed at which this is going and the that the key part of the deal is ensuring that we cap apparently arbitrary way in which the Government premiums, particularly for the most vulnerable, and, have selected the zones? Will he reassure the House that importantly, that we cap excess charges. they are serious about delivering the policy? Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): After the great flood, Richard Benyon: I assure my right hon. Friend that I in the words of the old negro spiritual, share his frustration. I inherited a system that created “God gave Noah the rainbow sign, huge expectations but which did not match the evidence No more water but fire next time”. required to make these zones work. We are now seeking Smethwick has certainly suffered from fire this week. to make sure that they are evidence-based, affordable, Will the Minister, with other Departments, look urgently fit in with what happens locally in the seas and part of a at banning sky lanterns and, with the Environment coherent package. Agency, look at the licensing arrangements regarding storage at recycling sites that have large quantities of Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Vital marine habitats flammable material? off Devon and Cornwall will be lost for ever because this Government are not implementing a fully ecologically Mr Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman might wish to coherent network of marine conservation zones or following seek an Adjournment debate on the matter. the time scale laid down in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Will the Minister please think again Richard Benyon: I have huge sympathy for the people and tell the Chancellor that the costs of inaction in the of Smethwick, but this matter is nothing to do with long run will be far greater than the costs of protecting floods or flood insurance. I assure the right hon. Gentleman our marine environment now? that we are taking the question of Chinese lanterns very seriously indeed. Richard Benyon: The right hon. Gentleman is looking at marine conservation zones as if they are the only Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): People show in town. We have 42 special areas of conservation in my constituency who have been flooded will welcome and 37 special protection areas around the English the news about flood insurance and the extension of the coast. About a quarter of our inshore waters are protected £50 off their water bills. Does he agree that that shows a and we have more than 300 sites of special scientific commitment to the people of the south-west that was interest in the intertidal zone. What we are trying to do never shown by the previous Government? with marine conservation zones is part of a much bigger picture of marine protection. We will be one of Richard Benyon: I agree entirely. I am grateful to my the leading countries in the world for marine conversation hon. Friend for pointing out that we have addressed an and the right hon. Gentleman should feel proud about intrinsic, long-term unfairness for people in the south-west. that. We have proved that we are doing that not just for today, but for the long term. Flood Insurance Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): We have a 8. Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): What proposal from this Government, not a deal. The Secretary recent progress he has made on flood insurance; and if of State said that he will make a statement. [163122] “this announcement means that people no longer need to live in fear of being uninsurable”. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, However, all band H properties are excluded, as are Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): Last week, we so-called “genuinely uninsurable” properties and all announced a headline agreement with industry to guarantee properties built after 2009. Given that it has taken the affordable flood insurance for people in high-risk areas. Minister three years to get to this point, will he now The Association of British Insurers has assured Ministers admit that his proposals do not provide universal access that implementing Flood Re will have minimal impact to cover? on customers’ bills. We will be seeking the necessary powers in the Water Bill. Tackling flood risk will help to Richard Benyon: What an uncharacteristically graceless keep insurance terms affordable in the long term. We question from the hon. Gentleman. When the deal was have announced record levels of capital investment of announced from the Dispatch Box last week, there was more than £2.3 billion for 2015-16 to 2020-21. an audible sigh of relief, not only from Government Back Benchers, but from Opposition Back Benchers. Mrs Spelman: I congratulate the Minister on securing The deal has been welcomed and I am sure that the hon. that new deal for universal and affordable flood insurance, Gentleman knows in his heart that it is a good deal and which eluded the last Labour Government and me. Will one that will last for the long term. 1047 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1048

Rural Broadband a satellite solution that was providing an extraordinary benefit to the eight houses at the end of a long valley, so 9. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I am well aware of the points that he makes. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the roll-out Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I very much of broadband in rural areas. [163123] welcome the moneys that the Minister’s Department has made available to extend broadband into the hardest- TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, to-reach places, but identifying exactly which places Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): The Secretary those are and what it will take to achieve that is no of State meets regularly with his counterpart at the trivial exercise. Will he reserve some of the funds for Department for Culture, Media and Sport to discuss councils such as Wiltshire that have submitted an expression the roll-out of the £530 million rural broadband programme. of interest but still need to conduct the detailed survey We are determined to deliver that quickly to provide work required? 90% of premises with superfast broadband at 24 megabits a second and elsewhere with standard broadband of at Richard Benyon: My right hon. Friend the Secretary least 2 megabits a second. Further discussions will focus of State for Culture, Media and Sport is convening a on the £250 million of additional broadband funding meeting in the next few days with a number of community- that was announced as part of the spending review. led schemes that are concerned about the uncertainty over whether they will be among the final 10% hardest- to-reach areas. Over the next few weeks, we will have a Chi Onwurah: It is clear that the Department for much clearer view of where there are problems. We Culture, Media and Sport has been briefing against want to ensure that we iron out those problems so that Broadband Delivery UK in recent weeks. The Minister people know that they are in that 10% and can then must acknowledge that it is his Government’s decision access money through the rural community broadband to abandon Labour’s pledge of good broadband for all fund. by 2012 in favour of superfast broadband for some by 2015 that has left rural businesses and residents in the Topical Questions digital slow lane. How does he justify the devastating impact of that on the rural economy? T1. [163133] Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): If he Richard Benyon: I am sorry, but I cannot accept that. will make a statement on his Departmental responsibilities. One reason why the hon. Lady is sitting on the Opposition Benches is that her party lost the rural vote, partly The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural because it left rural Britain in a digital no-go zone. We Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The Department’s priorities have set out a programme that, by 2015, will see the are growing the rural economy, improving the environment rural economy playing its part in the rest of the economy and safeguarding animal and plant health. Today, I through the extension of superfast broadband, and have published a draft strategy for achieving official I think she knows it. bovine TB-free status in England over 25 years, and a copy has been placed in the Library. The strategy draws on international experience demonstrating the need to Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I would like to report bear down on the disease in cattle and wildlife. It sets that there is good progress in rolling out superfast out our determination to work in partnership with the broadband in Gloucestershire. Does the Minister agree industry to develop and deploy new technologies, and that that is one of the core reasons why the private we will also explore new options for governance, delivery sector is able to create more and more jobs? and funding. Tackling the disease will require long-term solutions and national resolve. Our cattle industry and Richard Benyon: I am delighted that things are moving countryside deserve no less. on in Gloucestershire. Of the 44 county projects, 27 are now contracted and the remainder will be by September. Hugh Bayley: Ash is a huge and important part of We will start to see fibre being laid in huge quantities woodland scenery in Yorkshire, especially in upland around rural Britain, and it will be as easy to run a areas, and ash dieback is increasing at an alarming rate, creative industry firm in a converted farm building in with more than 500 cases having been identified. The my hon. Friend’s constituency as it would be in the Secretary of State has reduced the staffing of the Forestry middle of Gloucester. Commission by more than 500. How will he deal with something that could be a catastrophe for our woodlands Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Has the Minister without shifting staff and closing other parts of the carried out any assessment of the impact of digital Department? exclusion on deprived communities such as mine, particularly for young people, who increasingly need Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman is right that the internet connections to complete schoolwork, apply for potential damage of Chalara to our rural environment jobs and so on? is absolutely devastating. We will make our dispositions of the resources within the Department in the autumn, Richard Benyon: We have indeed. We know, for example, but I assure him that I have made plant health an from the work that PricewaterhouseCoopers has done absolute priority, right up with animal health. I have that there is an average benefit of £365 a year to families been to Australia and New Zealand to see what they are who have proper digital access, for precisely the reasons doing on biosecurity, and the plant taskforce has made that the hon. Gentleman gives. I was at a remote location some important recommendations, such as the risk in Northumberland national park the other day seeing register, which we are already implementing. 1049 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1050

The answer for ash is to find a genetic strain. There is Mr Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for recognising sadly no magic potion that we can spray on ash trees the importance of the national pollinator strategy, which yet, although we are testing 14 of them, so a genetic strain we hope to have in time for consultation at the end of is the real answer. For that reason, we have put out this year. A wide range of other pollinator-friendly 250,000 young ash trees to see which ones are resistant. policies and initiatives are in place, but there are gaps we want to fill, particularly in research. That will give us T3. [163135] Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): the opportunity to look across Government and work The average household loses £700 of food each year to with non-governmental organisations to review everything waste. The Government have improved the date labelling we are doing and establish our commitment to the of food, but will the Minister help even further by future security of pollinators. supporting prominent labelling advice on how food can best be stored at home to prolong its freshness? T9. [163142] Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The single-use plastic bag tax has proven successful in The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Wales. It is being adopted in Ireland and will soon also Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): My hon. be adopted in Scotland. Will the Minister update the Friend is right, and through the recently announced House on the Government’s current plans regarding the third phase of the Courtauld commitment, the Government introduction of a similar tax in the rest of the country? are working with retailers and manufacturers to design products in ways that help households reduce food waste Mr Heath: As my hon. Friend knows, the Government and save money, including improved storage instructions. have been looking at this issue for some time and we The Waste and Resources Action programme—WRAP—is believe there is a need to bear down on the use of plastic working directly with consumers through the Love Food bags, particularly those that are non-recyclable. We are Hate Waste programme, to help people know how best looking carefully at evidence from Wales and note the to store different foods. decision in Scotland. We hope to come forward with plans in due course regarding what is appropriate for Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The Government the English market. spent £25,000 on a consultation into sky lanterns which concluded that the fire risk is significant, and that they T4. [163136] Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): Now pose a risk to planes and a significant risk to the that the Government of millionaires for millionaires operation of coastal rescue services. With an estimated have waged war against the poor people of this country £6 million damage caused by a single sky lantern at by driving down their incomes and pushing up the cost Smethwick, and a fire that needed 200 firefighters and of fuel through the roof, what will the Minister do left only one spare fire tender to cover the whole of the about food prices, which are increasing three times west midlands, are the Government still seriously saying faster than the pay packet of the average worker? they will do absolutely nothing?

Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman knows all about Mr Heath: It will come as some surprise to my wife to doing absolutely nothing on sky lanterns. I asked questions learn that I am a millionaire. The hon. Gentleman about sky lanterns year after year from the Opposition mentioned fuel prices, but it was this Government who Benches, and within a month of taking office I abolished the fuel price escalator, and the Labour party commissioned a report into the potential harm they which put it in place. cause to farm animals. The report concluded that it was not possible to quantify the damage to animal welfare Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): in ways that would justify a ban, but it indicated that Given the importance of the common agricultural policy there was a significant danger of fire. I have communicated to the EU, does the Minister share my frustration at the that to my colleagues in the Department for Communities lack of Europe-wide food labelling? We heard yesterday and Local Government, and I plan to meet them to from the all-party group for European reform that this discuss further action. was down to language problems, but food labelling can be done with symbols and pictures. Will he pursue this T7. [163139] Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I to make sure that we can trade more of our food across know that the Secretary of State takes a close interest Europe? in EU affairs and how they interfere with businesses in rural areas. What steps is he taking to ease that Mr Heath: The most important thing about food situation? labelling is to have systems that are readily understood by the consumer. One of the difficulties is that there is Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that a huge weight of information that could be put on a question because it pertains to every business in the packet, but putting everything on a packet does not countryside. Through the red tape challenge, DEFRA necessarily make it more intelligible and useable for the will have reviewed all its regulations that emanate from consumer. We have to get the balance right, and talk the EU by the end of the year, and as a result there will to other member states in the EU about it as it is a be 12,000 fewer dairy inspections per year. Since 2011, European competence, but we are absolutely determined for every £1 of compliance cost, we have removed £13. to provide proper understandable information that allows consumers to make informed choices. T2. [163134] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): News of a national pollinator strategy is welcome, T5. [163137] Julie Hilling (Bolton West)(Lab): Blackrod but will the Minister confirm whether other relevant town council recently passed its second resolution to Departments as well as DEFRA will be involved in its ban Chinese lanterns because of the risk to animals and development? the danger of fire. The Minister says that he is taking 1051 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1052 the issue seriously and that he raised it in opposition. expected to upload data both to the Rural Payments Three years on, when will we see legislation to do Agency and to HMRC online when they have no something about this problem? possibility of getting a connection. Will the Minister stop this demand? Mr Heath: The hon. Lady raises an important point that has been raised before. I am clear about the potential Richard Benyon: One of the absurdities under the last danger but we must act proportionately. We have done a Government was that they wanted things done online study as far as our departmental responsibilities are but farmers did not have the ability to do so. That is one concerned, which are to do with animal welfare. Other reason why we have made roll-out of rural broadband issues—for instance fire—fall into the areas of responsibility so important. The hon. Lady knows that it is on the of other Departments, and I must now talk to my verge of being rolled out in her area, which will be of counterparts to take their views on it and on how we great benefit to some remote communities. take the matter forward. But I have to say that we have done more in the past 12 months than was done in the Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): What proportion previous 13 years. of those living in rural areas have not just slow broadband, but no affordably priced commercial broadband at all, Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): The Minister is familiar such as the village of Isfield in my constituency? Will with the concerns of my constituent Andrew St Joseph the Minister liaise with the Department for Culture, about the lack of involvement of landowners in decisions Media and Sport to ensure that these “not spots” are taken about flood defences and maintenance. Will he given priority in the roll-out of superfast broadband? look into it and give me an assurance that this will no longer happen and that landowners will be consulted on Richard Benyon: Beyond 2015, the intention, with the the maintenance of defences? extra money that has been allocated, is to get superfast broadband to 99% of properties. I have seen technology TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, that gets good quality broadband to very remote Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): I have huge communities, so I hope my hon. Friend’s constituents respect for Mr St Joseph and his Essex Coast Organisation. will soon be online and able to compete in the global If he feels that he is not being consulted, I want to make economy. sure we address that. My understanding from the regional director and others is that they have regular meetings with him and with the Essex Coast Organisation. If my hon. Friend has other information, I will want to work CHURCH COMMISSIONERS closely with her to ensure we correct that.

T6. [163138] Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church Following the horsemeat scandals, there are still serious Commissioners, was asked— concerns about meat in the supply chain. When will we Bats in Churches get a full report? In Leicester there are still concerns about halal food. What discussion has the Minister had 1. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): What recent with the Food Standards Agency on this? assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the effects of bats in churches; and if he will make a Mr Heath: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have statement. [163103] commissioned a major review of food safety as it relates to contents, led by Professor Chris Elliot, which will be The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony made available to the House and discussed. On halal Baldry): A small number of bats living in a church can food, we have held discussions with the faith organisations be manageable, but parish churches are finding an because it is a critical issue for them; not necessarily a increasing number of bats taking up residence in large Government issue, but certainly something that matters roosts. There are significant costs in financial and human to them. terms to those who worship in these churches, and to the wider community. The present situation is simply Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Farmers in unsustainable. the Kettering constituency told me recently that their greatest concern was rural crime and the theft of farm Mr Nuttall: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that equipment. What work is the Department doing with reply. As a church warden, I know that many members the Home Department to address this problem? of parochial church councils live in fear of bats taking up residence in their church buildings, because of the Richard Benyon: Rural crime is a real concern and damage bats cause and the difficulty they have in removing needs to be resolved locally, which is one reason why we them because of EU rules. Will my hon. Friend give the have directly elected police and crime commissioners House some idea of what costs can be incurred by who can now be held accountable to their local electorate. churches that have to remove a colony of bats? But there is also a firm role for Members of this House to make sure that local police forces are making this a Sir Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend makes a good priority. point. Parish churches have to raise the money for bat mitigation at considerable cost to their community, and T8. [163141] Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): that can prevent their own mission and ministry. The The Government’s rural broadband roll-out is such a sums of money can be large. For example, the church disaster that I have farmers in my constituency who are of St Hilda’s in Ellerburn in the constituency of my 1053 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1054 hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss by former permanent secretary Sir Joseph Pilling. The McIntosh) has spent a total of £29,000 so far, which is a work of that group will assist the House of Bishops in significant sum for a small congregation to finance. As its deliberations. yet, there is no resolution in sight, but I was grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food Mr Bradshaw: I am grateful for that reply, because I and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for recently came across a case of a Christian couple in a Newbury (Richard Benyon) for indicating in a recent same-sex relationship and with children in the local debate in Westminster Hall that there might be a prospect Church primary school to whom it was made clear by of St Hilda’s, Ellerburn at last receiving a licence from the local conservative evangelical church that they would Natural England to resolve this issue. not be welcome to worship in it. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that such intolerance and bigotry have no place Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I must say that whatever in the Church of England? When the Church I rise with some trepidation on this topic, given the issues guidance, it is very important that that is made explosive response from the Second Church Estates quite clear to both parishes and Church schools. Commissioner to my gentle question in a Westminster Hall debate last week. Since then, I have been told that Sir Tony Baldry: Of course I agree with the right hon. the Bat Conservation Trust and the Church Buildings Gentleman about that. If he would like to give me the Council were having productive conversations on the details of that case, I will most certainly take it up with bats, churches and communities pilot project funded by the diocesan education officer. Children in Church schools Natural England until February this year when they come from a wide variety of family backgrounds, and stalled. Will the hon. Gentleman use his good offices to teachers offer the same compassion and care for all. bring the two together to continue those conversations? Each child is valued as a child of God and deserving of the very best that schools can offer. I would not expect Sir Tony Baldry: My concern with the hon. Lady’s any Church school to discriminate against any child, approach and the Bat Conservation Trust is that they whatever their personal or family circumstances. If any seem to think that this is an issue that can somehow just right hon. or hon. Member comes across any instance be managed. I have to keep on saying to her that this is where he feels that a Church school is in any way falling not an issue that can be managed. Large numbers of short of the standards that this House would expect, churches are being made unusable by large numbers of I hope they will get in touch with me. bats roosting in them. Churches are not field barns; they are places of worship. Following my debate in Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): Westminster Hall, I had a number of letters from clergy Notwithstanding any differences we may have over the up and down the country saying how distressing it was same-sex marriage legislation, does my hon. Friend for them, before they could celebrate communion on agree that one immediate contribution that the Church Sunday, to have to clear bat faeces and bat urine off the of England could make towards improving pastoral altar and the communion table. That is not acceptable. care for same-sex couples and their children would be to recognise blessings for civil partnerships in churches? Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): May I take this opportunity to thank my hon. Friend Sir Tony Baldry: Those are all matters that I suspect the Second Church Estates Commissioner and the Under- the House of Bishops will give thought to in its Secretary for helping St Hilda’s, Ellerburn? It is a matter considerations following the Pilling report. of urgency that the congregation can reclaim their church from the bats. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Further to the important question asked by my right hon. Friend Sir Tony Baldry: Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), is the Second an important point. [Laughter.] This is not a joking Church Estates Commissioner aware that one of the matter. This is serious and people have to understand weaknesses of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill is that. I am grateful for the attention paid to this issue by that the rights given to children of same-sex couples are the Under-Secretary. We are making real progress, but not planned to be the same as those for children of we need to ensure that places such as St Hilda’s, Ellerburn traditional couples? Will he have a word with his colleagues can continue to be places of worship and are not closed on the Front Bench about rectifying that? as a consequence of bat faeces and bat urine. Sir Tony Baldry: The hon. Lady makes an important Pastoral Care point. Perhaps she would like to talk to me about it in greater detail afterwards. If this is an issue that needs to 2. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): What guidance be resolved, it will have to be resolved in the other place, the Church of England plans to issue to parishes and where the Bill currently lies. Church schools on pastoral care for same sex couples and their children. [163104] Closed Churches (Alternative Use)

The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony 3. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What the policy Baldry): The House of Bishops issued a pastoral statement of the Church Commissioners is on finding alternative before the Civil Partnership Act 2004 came into force in uses for churches which are closed. [163106] 2005. I expect that the House of Bishops will want to issue a further statement before the legislation on same-sex Sir Tony Baldry: Under the Mission and Pastoral marriage comes into force. The House of Bishops is due Measure 2011, the Church Commissioners are responsible to consider this December a report on sexuality, chaired for settling the future of closed church buildings. For 1055 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1056 most, we are able to secure suitable alternative uses in Credit Unions partnership with a local diocese, but I should stress that the Church of England is not in the business of closing 5. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) churches unless absolutely necessary. (LD): What support the Church Commissioners plan to give to the Archbishop of Canterbury’s initiative to Andrew Stephenson: Although I hope that churches promote credit unions; and if he will make a statement. will always remain principally used for worship, it was [163109] great to visit the grassroots family centre at St Philip’s church in Nelson recently and see the job club IT Sir Tony Baldry: Archbishop Justin wants to see a courses and other programmes now being run from the more flourishing community finance sector, and he has building by the Blackburn diocese. That stands in stark asked those responsible at Church House to explore contrast to St Mary’s in the same town, for which the how the Church of England can support the credit Church Commissioners have not had responsibility for union movement. The Church Commissioners have agreed over 20 years and which has remained boarded up since to provide support for that initiative. it was deconsecrated back in 1987. Does my hon. Friend agree that the St Philip’s family centre is a great example Simon Hughes: Following the welcome summit called of an alternative use for a church building? by the Government on payday loan companies, and given the view of many in this House that there should Sir Tony Baldry: What has happened at St Philip’s in be a cap on the interest that such companies can charge, Nelson is outstanding. I pay tribute to all who have will my hon. Friend suggest that an all-party group goes made it happen. St Philip’s now homes a Sure Start to see Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation project, a drug rehabilitation project and an Early Break and Skills to encourage support for the Church’s credit project. I hope that churches and church buildings can union initiative and to persuade the Government that always be at the centre of the community for wider we need to cap the interest on payday loans? community use. Sir Tony Baldry: I agree with my right hon. Friend. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): It is also The Anglican Mutual credit union is raising capital important to prevent churches used by other denominations from a number of sources to increase its capacity. I have from closing. Will the hon. Gentleman look at the been checking, and I think that practically every book situation facing St John’s, an historic building in Burslem? in the Old and New Testaments exhorts against usury. A different denomination wishes to continue worshipping In the other place, the Archbishop of Canterbury wisely there, but urgent action is needed to ensure that all the stated: community groups can continue to use the church as “The Financial Services Act provides for a study of the well. consequences of a cap to be looked at and then for the cap to be brought in at an appropriate level. Caps are needed at a sensible Sir Tony Baldry: I have sufficient difficulties sorting level that does not choke off supply and send people into the hands of loan sharks…Caps are there to prevent usurious lending…We out the problems of the Church of England. I do not need to…cut out legal usury from our high streets.”—[Official have responsibility for how other denominations open Report, House of Lords, 20 June 2013; Vol. 746, c. 485.] or close their churches. That will be, if anything, a I entirely agree that we need to work out how we can matter for the local planning authority. prevent legal usury from continuing in this country.

Financial Performance Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May I press the hon. Gentleman on this matter? Surely what 4. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What assessment was said at the G8 about social impact investment is he has made of the financial performance of the manna from heaven for the Church of England, because Church Commissioners in 2012; and if he will make a it can be used to provide an alternative for social statement. [163108] enterprises at the heart of the community. This is not just about payday loans; fixed-odds betting is the curse Sir Tony Baldry: For the financial year 2011-12, the of our urban communities. commissioners achieved a total return of 9.7%. Over the last 20 years the commissioners have returned an Sir Tony Baldry: I am not entirely sure where the hon. average of 9.9%, which outstrips our personal aim of Gentleman seeks to differ from me on this. I certainly meeting the challenging target of retail prices index think that we need to sort out legal usury, and I hope inflation plus 5%. that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and I will form Fiona Bruce: Can my hon. Friend update the House part of an all-party delegation to discuss with Ministers on the current ethical investment policies of the Church how we can cap those rates of interest that seem somewhat Commissioners? usurious.

Sir Tony Baldry: The Church of England has very Association of English Cathedrals tough ethical investment policies, and we can demonstrate that the Church Commissioners have significantly 6. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): What recent outperformed the market while investing ethically, and discussions have taken place between the Church that it is possible to invest ethically and get a genuinely Commissioners and the Association of English Cathedrals. good return on those investments. [163110] 1057 Oral Answers4 JULY 2013 Oral Answers 1058

Sir Tony Baldry: Recent discussions between the Church Mr Hollobone: I thank Sir Tony for his late-night visit and the Association of English Cathedrals have covered to the Kettering street pastors. Does he agree that their such topics as promoting the impact of cathedrals on work is making Kettering town centre a better place, their locality and on national tourism, and determining and that the country would be a better place were it to how best to fund fabric repairs and maintenance. follow Kettering’s example?

Hugh Bayley: English cathedrals are among the Sir Tony Baldry: No greater luck hath an hon. Member cornerstones of English culture, of our music, of our than to spend a Saturday night with my hon. Friends art, of our sculpture, of our writing in the English the Members for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) and for language and even of our engineering innovation. Unlike Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and their street pastors. The our museums and art galleries, however, they get no work that the street pastors do is genuinely impressive. regular Government funding. I know that the Under- Large numbers of volunteers from all denominations Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the are concerned to ensure that those who are enjoying the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) has agreed to night economy are well looked after and that they get meet representatives of the Association of English home safe and sound. I pay tribute to both my hon. Cathedrals. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us when that Friends for the support that they are giving to those meeting will take place? initiatives. Mr Speaker: I do not want to delay for long, but Sir Tony Baldry: York Minster is one of the glories of before the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) England. Maintaining our cathedrals is a huge responsibility. explodes, we must hear from him. The hon. Gentleman was present when the Under-Secretary met cathedral deans recently. That meeting raised a Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The secondary number of issues, and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary reason why my hon. Friend came to the two constituencies agreed to meet representatives of the association. I was to judge the night life. Will he please tell us whether hope that the meeting will take place shortly, and I will Wellingborough or Kettering had the better night life? try to ensure that the hon. Gentleman can be present at it. Sir Tony Baldry: Well, I fear that however I answer this question, I am likely to receive invitations from Kettering Street Pastors right hon. and hon. Members of all parties to go and sample the night life in their constituencies. I thought the way in which the night economies were managed by 8. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What he the police, by the street pastors and by everyone in learned from visiting the Kettering street pastors on Wellingborough and Kettering made them both attractive 8 June 2013. [163112] destinations for people to go and visit.

Sir Tony Baldry: I was greatly impressed by my visit Mr Speaker: That was a diplomatic answer of the to the street pastors in my hon. Friend’s constituency; kind that one would expect from a former Minister at they do outstanding work. the Foreign Office. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. 1059 4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1060

Business of the House This Government have a woeful record on telling the media what is happening before they tell this House—in breach of the ministerial code. Yesterday, we reached a 10.35 pm new low with the Defence Secretary’s spectacular failure Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Notwithstanding to provide Members with crucial documents relating to the night life in Kettering, will the Leader of the House his statement on Army reserves. You, Mr Speaker, have give us the business for next week? rightly admonished the Defence Secretary in the strongest possible terms, and today’s Order Paper says that there The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew will be a clarification statement, but by the time I rose Lansley): The business for next week will be: to speak, we had still not received it. Surely the Defence Secretary should now have the guts to come back and MONDAY 8JULY—Remaining stages of the Financial subject himself to the scrutiny of Members, who will Services (Banking Reform) Bill (Day 1). finally have adequate information in front of them. TUESDAY 9JULY—Conclusion of the remaining stages I pointed out a few weeks ago that the Education of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill, followed Secretary is at the bottom of the Government’s by consideration in Committee of the Northern Ireland correspondence class, with a damning report from the (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Procedure Committee showing that eight out of 10 of WEDNESDAY 10 JULY—Opposition Day [5th allotted his responses to MPs are answered late. This week, we day] (1st part). There will be a debate entitled “The have discovered why: he has been so busy composing an Effect of Government Policies on Disabled People” on edict on the content of his departmental letters that he an Opposition motion, followed by motion to approve a is not doing the day job. Apparently, he has demanded statutory instrument relating to terrorism, and the Chairman prose worthy of Jane Austen, George Orwell and, rather of Ways and Means has named opposed private business oddly, Matthew Parris. Does the Leader of the House for consideration. agree that if the Education Secretary spent less time THURSDAY 11 JULY—Debate on a motion relating to telling everyone else how to do their jobs and more time parliamentary consent to arming of anti-Government doing his, we would not have a shortage of a quarter of forces in Syria, followed by a general debate to mark the a million primary school places? Does he also agree that 25th anniversary of the Piper Alpha disaster. this is further proof that with this Government it is all The subjects for both debates have been nominated about spin and never about substance? by the Backbench Business Committee. The Back-Bench Bill to be presented by the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) is becoming FRIDAY 12 JULY—Private Members’ Bills. a classic parliamentary farce. I hear that in order to The provisional business for the week commencing keep Members here for the big day, the Prime Minister 15 July will include: has been forced to invite his mutinous colleagues round MONDAY 15 JULY—Second Reading of the Defence for a barbecue tonight. While millionaire donors get Reform Bill. kitchen suppers at No. 10, the poor Back Benchers are I should also like to inform the House that the shoved out into the garden. business in Westminster Hall for 11 July and 5 September will be: Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): It will not THURSDAY 11 JULY—Debate on social care reform for be a pyjama party. working age disabled people, followed by debate on large scale solar arrays. Ms Eagle: If it is a pyjama party, perhaps Rebekah Brooks should be there. THURSDAY 5SEPTEMBER—Debate on the sixth report of the Communities and Local Government Committee I am told that the Prime Minister will be flipping the on councillors on the front line. “posh burgers”, while the Cabinet will be dishing them out. That may sound like a rare treat, but there will be Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for trouble if members of the Cabinet do their burgers the announcing next week’s business. We have all been same as they do their policy: reconstituted, undercooked watching with concern as events in Egypt unfold. There and over-garnished. I certainly would not relish them. are many British nationals in the country, so will the I note that the Tory Taliban continue to fire on all Leader of the House ensure that Members are regularly cylinders. Tomorrow they will debate the introduction updated on this fast-moving situation? of a Margaret Thatcher day, and next Friday they will The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill returns debate the abolition of any protection against sexual to this place on Monday, as the right hon. Gentleman harassment in the workplace. Their alternative Queen’s has announced. The hon. Member for Chichester Speech is so off the wall that I cannot help wondering (Mr Tyrie) and I asked him last week whether he what they will come up with next. A Bill to disfranchise would provide extra time to ensure consideration of all but the landed gentry, perhaps? The repeal of the all the necessary amendments stemming from the Factory Acts? A Bill to confirm that the earth is indeed recommendations of the Parliamentary Commission flat? on Banking Standards. I thus thank the right hon. It is not just the Prime Minister’s Back Benchers who Gentleman for responding by granting an extra half are out of touch. On Tuesday, Tory welfare Minister day, which will allow some extra time for this important Lord Freud denied that there was any link between the Bill? Will he confirm that he will protect the additional rise of food banks and the Government’s benefit chaos. time he has allocated so that we do not lose it to Since the Government’s benefit changes, there has been Government statements and find ourselves back where a sevenfold increase in visits to food banks in Wirral. we started? They were visited by 9,000 people this year, and in most 1061 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1062 cases the reason was the benefit changes. This is a Ms Angela Eagle: We don’t. Government who have given a tax cut to their millionaire donors while plunging a third of a million more children Mr Lansley: I understand that the hon. Lady does not into poverty. May we have a debate on what they can have the text. I will not read it all out now as it would possibly mean by their increasingly ludicrous phrase take too long, but I will gladly share it with Members “We’re all in this together”? and it will be available in the Vote Office shortly. This week, in an attempt to seem like a man of the people, the Prime Minister told a group of Kazakh Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): students that he aspired to be the most high-profile We needed it earlier. member of an élite club at an élite school: Harry Potter. That outraged Potter fans everywhere, and inspired The Mr Lansley: I will read the text out if the hon. Daily Telegraph to organise a poll which concluded that Gentleman wishes me to. Rightly, we said that we he was actually more like Draco Malfoy. The Defence would clarify the answers given, and that is what the Secretary cannot make a statement to the House, the text does: it clarifies the issues relating to Kilmarnock, Education Secretary cannot answer questions, and the Vale of Glamorgan and the Scottish and Northern the Chancellor cannot organise a burger stunt. Is not Irish Yeomanry headquarters. Therefore, that will be the reality that the Prime Minister is presiding over a available for Members. I regret that we did not share the Cabinet of muggles? documents in advance, provide the documents referred to on time, or give the House all the information necessary Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the shadow Leader of to respond to the statement. We owe the right hon. the House for her response to the business statement. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) and other Let me begin by saying that I think all that Members colleagues an apology for that, and on behalf of the continue to be very disturbed by the turn of events in Government I give that apology. We will endeavour to Cairo, and in Egypt generally. As we know, this is a very ensure that it does not happen again. fast-moving and fluid situation. The Foreign Office has The hon. Lady asked about responses to parliamentary increased our consular presence in Egypt. I join my questions. As she knows, I am proud of the fact that, colleagues in advising British citizens to avoid non-essential during my time as Secretary of State, the Department travel to the country, apart from the Red Sea resorts, of Health, a busy Department that is asked many and to monitor, as necessary, the travel advice that is questions, responded to questions on time in 99% or available on the Foreign Office website. sometimes 100% of cases, a record that it has maintained Like the Foreign Secretary and, I think, all Members following my departure. I know that the Secretary of on both sides of the House, I hope for restraint and State for Education and the permanent secretary at the calm and an end to the violence—especially given the Department are acutely aware of the need to raise their very disturbing accounts of sexual violence—but I also performance. I share with the Secretary of State the believe that this provides us with a salutary lesson about desire to ensure that, in doing so, good prose is used. the nature of democracy.What is necessary in a democracy My personal preference is for colleagues, when composing is for people to resolve their conflicts peacefully, and to answers, to pay more attention to Sir Ernest Gowers do so by means of democratic processes. I think we all than to Jane Austen, but that is just a matter of taste. agree that while that should not include military Barbeques in Downing street is not really a matter for intervention, which we deplore, we expect those who are business questions, but the hon. Lady does not seem to elected to govern in a constitutional framework that realise that we are united while Labour is run by Unite. respects the rights of minorities and enables all people That is the difference. We would love to see her at the who live in a democracy to feel that they are fully barbeque. Perhaps she would like to come. If she does represented. To answer the hon. Lady’s question directly, so, we can use the opportunity to see what her position I know that the Foreign Secretary and other colleagues is on a referendum on the future of this country in in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will take Europe. We are determined to give the people of this every step to ensure that the House is kept fully informed. country that choice and to secure the best interests of I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s welcoming the this country through a negotiation of its relationship additional time for the Financial Services (Banking with the rest of Europe. Looking at the business before Reform) Bill. Never let it be said that we are not a the summer recess, I hope that there will be a further listening set of business managers. I do not think that opportunity for a debate in Opposition time. She might my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) like to use that to go beyond the debate that the Opposition is here, but I am grateful for his representations. We are had on lobbying and to consider third party influence in moving towards the end of term before the summer the political system. We will bring forward a Bill relating recess. As the House knows, inevitably, a range of issues to that issue, but the Labour party, before it deals with will require to be announced before the recess, but we any motes in anyone else’s eye, must take the beam out will take steps to ensure that the time that is available of its own eye, which is that it is run by the trade unions. for that debate is protected, so that it happens as It is a party where third-party influence is rife. It is a planned. party where 81% of its funding comes from the trade The hon. Lady asked about yesterday’s statement by unions, and that does not just buy influence; it apparently my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. buys the opportunity to select Labour party parliamentary Mr Speaker, you will have received a letter from him candidates. That is an outrage. The legislation we introduce apologising for the Ministry of Defence’s failure to will not change that situation, but it is in the gift of the deliver documents relating to the statement. As the hon. Labour party to do it, and the fact that it has not and Lady rightly said, the House will see a written ministerial that the Leader of the Opposition does not do it is a statement from my right hon. Friend. I have the text of demonstration of how weak he is in his own party, as he the written ministerial statement— would be in any other situation. 1063 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1064

Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): May young people, and over the last year youth unemployment we have a debate on transparency in local government fell faster in this country than it did in the United in the modern digital age, to raise in particular the States, Germany, Canada, France or Italy. concerns that council senior officers and monitoring officers, notably those in the London borough of Tower Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): In my constituency of Hamlets and others, have sought deliberately to undermine Wansbeck, we have always had a healthy horse population, recent guidance by the Secretary of State to encourage as they have been well looked after by careful owners, more widely available filming and broadcasting of council but recently we have seen an explosion in irresponsible meetings by local residents and journalists? horse ownership, with horses being tethered next to almost every available blade of grass. Will the Leader of Mr Lansley: I am interested in what my hon. Friend the House grant a debate on this problem, because if it says, and I will certainly raise it with my hon. Friends at is not effectively and efficiently tackled by local authorities the Department for Communities and Local Government we will see loss of life and serious injuries to residents in who, he will know, feel very strongly about the importance Wansbeck and other parts of the country? of such openness and transparency. Previous issues in relation to the desire of some councils—only a very few, Mr Lansley: I am sure the House will agree with the we hope—to try to control the media in their area is in hon. Gentleman that that is a most unsatisfactory situation, part what has led to the Local Audit and Accountability which might apply in other constituencies. I do not Bill that is currently in another place, but my hon. know whether he has had an opportunity to raise it with Friend raises a further important point. my hon. Friends at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but if he has not I will certainly draw it to their attention and ask them to respond. I Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): Further know in my own constituency and elsewhere that there to what my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey can be difficulties with people bringing horses on to (Ms Eagle) said about food banks, the Trussell Trust land and then sometimes simply abandoning them, and estimates that almost 350,000 people are using them, the responsibilities of the landowners in those circumstances and that figure has tripled since 2012. As the Department can be very onerous. for Work and Pensions does not record or measure these referrals, how can the Government be sure there is Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Accessing no link between food bank usage and welfare cuts? May Government services using 0845 numbers can cost as we have an urgent debate on this issue? much as 41p per minute via mobile phones. May we have a statement on what progress the Government Mr Lansley: I cannot give the hon. Lady a debate on have made on transferring this access to local-rate 0345 this subject, but she will have heard the answer given numbers to ensure that the Government do not directly repeatedly at this Dispatch Box both by me at business profit from the delivery of their own services? questions and by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. The use of food banks increased tenfold under the last Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important Government. One of the critical changes that have point. The Government are aiming, as far as is possible, taken place is that before the election the Trussell Trust through the digital by default strategy, to give members had been looking for food bank access to be advertised of the public access to direct online channels of in jobcentres, but whereas that was not given by the last communication, so that they do not have to rely on Government, it has been given under this Government. telephony so much. Some departments, such as Her There is therefore greater access to food banks, which is Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, have made considerable important for people who are in need. progress in moving away from 0845 numbers; I am told that 95% of its personal tax callers now use an 03 or Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): equivalent number. I know from my experience at the Last week it was my pleasure to open the East Midlands Department of Health that part of the principle behind airport academy, which is working with young unemployed the shift from NHS Direct to the 111 telephone system, people to give them the skills and confidence they need which is in principle the right thing to do, is moving to take their place in the workplace. Despite youth away from an 0845 number to a simple, easy to remember unemployment being down 15% last year in my and free 111 telephone system. constituency, we must do much more. May we have a statement on what steps the Government are taking to Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I help reduce the scourge of youth unemployment? wonder whether the Leader of the House has had an opportunity to look at early-day motion 337, which Mr Lansley: The whole House will be glad to hear of stands in my name and those of other hon. Members, the East Midlands airport academy, and I am sure my on the 125th anniversary of the Bow match women’s hon. Friend is proud of the contribution it is making strike. and of his constituency for the job creation that is [That this House welcomes the first Match Women’s helping to reduce youth unemployment, as he described. Festival being held in London on 6 July 2013 to mark the Fortunately, we are not remotely complacent. We have 125 years since the 1888 strike by 1,400 mainly women seen a reduction in youth unemployment in the latest workers at the Bryant and May factory in the Bow area of data, which are for the last quarter, and since last year, East London; notes modern research by the historian but we continue to take further action. We have put Louise Raw that proves that the strike was instigated, £1 billion into the YouthContract, more apprenticeships, organised and led independently by the match women more work experience places, and more incentives in themselves and then supported by others, after many relation to wages to encourage employers to take on years of dangerous working conditions, poverty wages and 1065 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1066 bullying by the match women’s employers; further notes Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Tourism in that the match women’s strike in 1888 led directly to the Cleethorpes has been badly hit in recent months following Great Dock Strike of 1889 in the same part of London the closure of the main rail route out of the resort as a and, therefore, set in train the historic events from which result of a landslip. The incident has highlighted the the Labour Party was created in 1900; and believes that economic fragility of many seaside resorts, so will the the match women’s victory was also an inspiration to the Leader of the House find time for a debate on such Suffragette movement and for all those campaigning for matters? equality today, especially on issues such as violence against women.] Mr Lansley: I know that my hon. Friend has been May we have a debate that would allow hon. Members assiduous in pursuing the issue and, in response to to tell the true story of what happened to those brave questions that he has asked before, I have raised it with women, neglected by historians for many years, and my hon. Friends at the Department for Transport. I how they changed the course of history by standing up cannot promise a further immediate debate on rail for their rights at work? matters—of course, some rail issues were open for discussion yesterday—but I will of course raise the issue Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her with my hon. Friends once again on his behalf. question. I had not had, but now have, an opportunity to see early-day motion 337. I will take an opportunity, Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): When can we as I know many hon. Members will, to read it and debate the office of police and crime commissioners, perhaps to read about it. I very much welcome what she which is causing disruption, waste and unhappiness has had to say; she rightly raises important issues that throughout the country? The concept of having two we need to commemorate and always reflect upon in people in charge, one of whom has almost unlimited current circumstances. Henry VIII powers while the existing chief constables have their powers diminished and threatened, is a matter of great concern and a threat to the independence of Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): May we our police. have a debate on the anomalous situation of precipitous demolitions ahead of planning applications being considered? High Trees in Eastfield road, Peterborough, Mr Lansley: I know that the hon. Gentleman has a striking Victorian house, previously occupied by the raised the issues relating to the police and crime Family Care charity, faces the threat of demolition as a commissioner in his part of the world with me and with result of a speculative application for 90 student bedsits the Prime Minister, and he will have heard the reply. I by a mystery developer. Will the Leader of the House would say two things. First, democracy matters and, in persuade his colleagues in the Department for Communities this context, the accountability that comes with election and Local Government to look again at this issue, so is important in itself. I know that it is enabling people that we can avoid precipitous demolitions ahead of across the country to feel that to a greater extent than in planning application consideration and, thus, protect the past their priorities can be directly reflected in the our heritage and built environment? priority setting of police services for their area. Secondly, if he has specific issues about his constituency my hon. Friends from the Home Office will be available for Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his questions on Monday 15 July. question. I can imagine how he and his constituents might be alarmed by an experience of that kind. I will, Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): of course, raise it with my colleagues at DCLG and The Leader of the House will be aware of the Prime encourage them to respond to him regarding what Minister’s written statement yesterday that the Department powers are available and how they are appropriately for Education has ceased to have responsibility for used. He might note that our DCLG colleagues will be youth policy—ironically, at a time when the commission here answering questions on Monday, which might give considering youth work, which I chair, has been inundated him an opportunity to raise the matter then. with evidence from academies and other schools about the importance of the links between classrooms Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The Leader of the and youth work. Given the disproportionate impact of House spoke about the need for a debate on third-party local authority funding cuts on youth work, may we influence. Does he feel that should include consideration have a debate—I do not believe we have had such a of the impact of large, multi-thousand-pound donations debate in this place for some years—soon after the from individuals such as John Nash, a chairman of recess on the future of youth services in this country? Care UK, to Government Members? We could then consider the progress on the Government’s Positive for Youth policy in the light of yesterday’s Mr Lansley: I was a director in Conservative central announcement. office 20 years ago, when the Conservative party made it absolutely clear that donations to the party would not Mr Lansley: I cannot immediately offer a debate and secure influence—they would not come with strings I know that my hon. Friend will understand that the attached. In those two decades the Labour party appears ability to relate issues to do with young people across to have forgotten nothing and learnt nothing. It continues government and to give them a renewed focus was at the to be a party dominated by its paymasters; 81% of the heart of the Prime Minister’s changes, as announced resources that the Labour party depends on comes from yesterday. I am glad that this week we had the trade unions. In quarter four last year, one trade union, announcement of a major extension of funding for Unite, gave Labour £832,990 and that did not come youth sport, which will, I hope, form part of the Olympic without strings—it came with many strings attached. and Paralympic legacy. That is very important. I shall 1067 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1068

[Mr Lansley] were a £50 billion pot to invest in those cities—a wonderful opportunity—the city leaders would spend it on fast raise the issues he mentions with my colleagues and as rail to Manchester instead? the opportunity for such a debate will probably not arise immediately in Government time, he might consider Mr Lansley: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman asking for such a thing in the context of priorities did not acknowledge not only what has already been through the Backbench Business Committee. achieved in some of our great cities, but the importance of the city deals. To take the example of Manchester, Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): May we have a debate the city deal reached there is visionary and far reaching, on the demands for a public inquiry into the allegations and if the earn-back scheme does what it is intended to that the Metropolitan police sought to undermine the do, it will provide enormous investment in the infrastructure Macpherson inquiry? There are revelations today that a of the city. Other cities across the country—I think report has been referred to the Independent Police Huddersfield is one of them—are bidding for a city Complaints Commission that a senior officer sought to deal. This is their opportunity to come forward with a gather information on someone who was about to give vision for their city—it should be not top-down, but led evidence to the inquiry and did so with the intention of locally—and the Government are looking to give support undermining that individual. If that proves to be true, it to those city deals. seriously calls into question the way that senior officers across the country approached the Macpherson inquiry Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Supporters of and further undermines the process of the police Coventry City football club, including myself, are dismayed investigating the police. Only an independent inquiry that the club’s owners are applying to the Football with the right to summon people and to have them give League to move the club to Northampton for the next evidence under oath will satisfy the public that the three years. The board of the Football League has to matter is truly being looked into. sanction the move, which I strongly urge it to oppose. Will my right hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to make an urgent statement Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will recall that the on this important matter? Home Secretary made it very clear in the House that she has confidence that a number of inquiries that are Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises an issue that I can being undertaken into the issues surrounding Stephen imagine is of significant concern to his constituents and Lawrence’s murder continue to be independent, but others in the area. Although it is not an immediate that she has not taken off the table any further steps responsibility of the Government, this is something that might be needed to ensure that there is the rigour that I know my hon. Friends at the Department for and independence required. She continues to keep the Culture, Media and Sport dealing with the governance issue under review. of football take seriously and I shall of course raise it with them. I know that they will respond to my hon. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Back in 2008, Bradford Friend, so that he can keep his constituents informed of & Bingley was expropriated by the Labour Government what the circumstances are and what the Government’s in a horrid and flawed decision taken by the then Prime view may be. Minister and Chancellor. Nearly 1 million shareholders and bondholders still do not know how and why their Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): company was confiscated. Surely the Leader of the I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey House agrees that it is time the Government and the (Ms Eagle) for giving me some leeway to raise this issue. Financial Conduct Authority made it abundantly clear I have now seen a copy of the written ministerial what decisions were taken in the run-up to the confiscation. statement, which the Library received at 10.43, although Will he arrange for the Chancellor to make a statement it is actually a draft, so perhaps we should not be too laying out exactly what decisions were taken, so we can confident about it. The WMS contains no details of the find out once and for all why Bradford & Bingley was number of personnel who will lose their job or have to treated so unfairly compared with other banks in a move, or what the requirements are for each of the similar situation? bases; it does not provide any moving dates; it does not say which constituencies personnel are going to; it does Mr Lansley: On behalf of my hon. Friend and other not state if they are moving locally; it does not give the Members who share his views, I will raise the matter base locations in any of the cities; and it does not with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. explain how Kilmarnock ended up, in handwriting, on My hon. Friend will be aware that our right hon. Friend the list. May we have a proper statement from the will not himself have direct access to the papers of the Ministry of Defence at the earliest opportunity—perhaps previous Administration, but I will ask him what steps, even on Monday? not least in the context of the continuing inquiry into banking standards, it is appropriate to take to find out Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman knows that many more about the circumstances. of the matters he raises would not have formed part of the original circulation of documents. I have made very Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will clear our regret that the information that should have the Leader of the House consider having a debate as been available when the Secretary of State sat down at soon as possible on how we restore and achieve a the end of his statement was not available at that time. renaissance of the great towns and cities, such as The information, in so far as it was incorrect at the time Huddersfield, Leeds and Manchester, in the north and it was given to him, is being corrected in the written midlands of our country? Does he believe that if there ministerial statement, but as the hon. Gentleman rightly 1069 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1070 says, there are further questions to which he wishes to Mr Lansley: That is why I was not confident that it have answers. I will of course ensure that my hon. Friends was there. I am very clear that we did not meet the at the Ministry of Defence take note of those questions standard that we were looking to meet yesterday. We are and respond to him as soon as they can. determined to ensure that we make this information available, and make it available when the House has a Mr Speaker: I should, perhaps, mention to the House need for it. that, as the Leader of the House indicated earlier, I have myself received a gracious letter of apology from the Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): May we Secretary of State for Defence, a copy of which I am have a debate on the need for a change of culture in the content to place in the Library of the House. BBC? I would have hoped that scandals over recent years and even in recent weeks would allow the BBC to Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Will the Leader of the be more transparent and open with its viewers and the House raise with the Chancellor of the Exchequer licence fee payers. I recently tabled a freedom of information the inequitable and unjust situation whereby a banker request to ask how many journalists and staff travelled who wishes to sell a derivative or hedging product, such with the British Lions to follow them in Australia, and as interest rate swap agreements, has to be registered, the BBC refused to answer it because it falls outside the authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Freedom of Information Act. Is this not a bad example Authority, but the directors of many thousands of of how the BBC works? small and medium-sized businesses, who are classified under the FCA’s test as sophisticated enough to take Mr Lansley: Many Members in the House will have responsibility for signing such an agreement, are not sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. Many Members registered, authorised and regulated by the FCA and will also remember the long struggle that took place to therefore are ineligible for the FCA’s redress scheme? secure access to the BBC for the National Audit Office. When one sees, for example, the report that the NAO published recently in relation to severance agreements Mr Speaker: This is a matter of notable interest and at the BBC, that entirely justifies the openness that possibly no little complexity. It is not immediately obvious resulted from its access. I am sure Members will be to me, which may be the result of my own stupidity, that looking to the Public Accounts Committee’s hearings it represents a business question, but the ingenuity of with the chairman of the BBC Trust and looking to the the Leader of the House is legendary and I shall leave it BBC Trust which, as regulator of the BBC, must take to his interpretation. responsibility now for ensuring that the cultural changes that are required in the BBC are seen through. Mr Lansley: I think that what my hon. Friend is looking for is a response from Ministers at the Department Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): It cost £73,000 for Business, Innovation and Skills and I will try to to help prepare three NHS chiefs for a recent Public secure that. She may find that it is none the less in order Accounts Committee hearing. May we have a Government to raise some of the issues that she describes in the statement on how and why consultants were hired for context of the discussion on the Financial Services 52 days in advance of a two-hour PAC hearing, and (Banking Reform) Bill, as they are clearly relevant to who will be called to account for this gross misuse of that. I am pleased to say that we have now allocated a taxpayers’ money? day and a half to enable such issues to be raised. Mr Lansley: As far as I am aware, that should not Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I am have happened and it was an excessive use of resources sorry to have to come back to the debacle that was for that purpose. I am sure my hon. Friends at the yesterday’s defence statement, but we still do not have Department of Health and in particular its permanent clarity. I find it astonishing that a Secretary of State, secretary will want to examine precisely why that happened. whether that is the Secretary of State for Defence or for [Interruption.] I think it happened after I was Health Education—there is a similar problem there—can come Secretary. Rather than rehearse or receive training, civil to the House and give a statement with incorrect or servants and others who give evidence to Select Committees inadequate information for Members in all parts of the would be well advised simply to think through what House to peruse. I ask respectfully why the Leader of their responsibilities are and how they discharge them. the House, having seen the statement this morning, even That is the most important thing they can do and the though it appears to be only a partial statement, did not proper preparation they should undertake. make it available prior to today’s business questions. Surely that would at least have shown some willingness Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Aldi, Morrisons on the part of the Government to try to keep Members and Tesco want to build big stores in my constituency; informed on this very complex matter. some people are against and some are in favour. Yorkshire Water, meanwhile, wants to rip up the listed Victorian Mr Lansley: I will continue to ensure that we make reservoir spillway at Butterley in Marsden, and nearly the information that is provided to the House available everybody is against that. May we have a debate on how as quickly as we can. As I say, I had the language of the communities can be involved, how the process can be a written ministerial statement shortly before I stood up, lot more transparent and how local views can be heard but I did not have it in a form that I could distribute to on such major planning issues? Members and I was not confident that it was in the Vote Office at that point. Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises important issues with which the House has become familiar, not least Thomas Docherty: It was not. through his robust advocacy of the heritage represented 1071 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1072

[Mr Lansley] contrary, the reason they should be here is to explain to their constituents whether they are in favour or not of by the Butterley spillway. I reiterate that my colleagues giving the people of this country a say over our relationship from the Department for Communities and Local with Europe. Government will be available to answer questions on Monday, which my hon. Friend might find helpful. In Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): May we have an addition, the Government are focused on securing local urgent debate about who is in charge of the Department decision making, not least through neighbourhood of Health? They are like Laurel and Hardy. The Secretary plans, which, if used to their fullest extent by local of State appears to be more interested in—I am sorry, communities, give some of the protection that he rightly I have completely forgotten the rest of my question. is looking for. Mr Lansley: Suffice it to say that the Secretary of Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I have just State is in charge of the Department of Health. benefited from a period of paternity leave following the birth of my first child, Ruby Erin—8 lb 7 oz and both Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I regret to have to mother and daughter are doing well, since you ask, again ask for a debate on the plight of the young Tamil Mr Speaker—as a result of a right that was extended by children who, at the end of the conflict a number of the previous Labour Government. Could time be made years ago, disappeared. They have never been found available to discuss the extension of employment rights and their parents and relatives have never been told to parents, including those who find themselves in the what happened to them, even though we fear that we impossibly sad situation of losing a child immediately know what happened to them. May we please have an after birth? urgent debate on that matter? Mr Speaker: My profuse apologies to the hon. Gentleman; I should have been listening to what he was Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend’s concern is entirely saying. understandable. Ministers at the Foreign Office continue to take a close interest in Sri Lanka and to make Mr Lansley: I think the House will join me in representations to its Government on the human rights congratulating the hon. Gentleman and wishing his abuses of the past and, in so far as is needed, improvements daughter Ruby and her mother the very best in the in human rights now. I will ask them to respond to him future. with what they know about the possibility of resolving those unhappy issues. We take very seriously the availability of paternity leave and, indeed, flexible leave, which is why we included additional relevant provisions in the Enterprise and Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Will the Leader Regulatory Reform Act 2013. There are issues concerning of the House use his good offices to ask the Home bereavement and sadly we have not legislated for additional Secretary whether we may have a debate or, at the least, rights in that regard, but there is a responsibility on an oral statement on gun controls and firearms licensing? employers to consider and look sympathetically at requests That is a hotly debated topic and there are issues of for leave in circumstances of family stress, and I hope public safety. Ministers have indicated that they are that they will do so. consulting on changing the guidance. It might be opportune to have such a debate at an early opportunity. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Lansley: I will talk to my right hon. and hon. Mr Speaker: Order. May I just point out to the House Friends at the Home Office. I cannot promise an immediate that there are still about 20 colleagues seeking to contribute? debate or a statement, but I will see what they can do to I would like to accommodate them all, as I almost respond to the hon. Gentleman. As I said earlier, they invariably do, but there is a statement to follow and will be available for questions on Monday 15 July. then two debates under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, so there is intense pressure on Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Last week, a man died time necessitating exemplary parliamentary brevity, which when he was hit by a train close to Rugby station. That will now be shown by Mr Peter Bone. was one of an increasing number of such incidents. There have been 238 in the past year, leading to distress Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): May we for families, psychologically scarred train drivers and have an urgent statement from the Leader of the House disruption for travellers. Network Rail is about to install about tomorrow’s business? There will be a very important new fencing along the west coast main line and is debate and I praise the Government’s Chief Whip for working with the Samaritans on suicide prevention. using his power to ensure that Conservative Members May we have a debate to consider what further steps will be present, but I understand that the other parties may be taken on this important matter? are trying to persuade their Members not to attend. What advice does the Leader of the House have so that Mr Lansley: Members will know that fatalities at Members can come here tomorrow and vote for Margaret level crossings and on railway lines are intensely distressing. Thatcher day? My hon. Friend may like to know that the number of trespass fatalities in 2012-13 fell below the average level Mr Lansley: I say to all Members, and Opposition of the past 10 years. Through its community safety Members in particular, that they should not come here campaigns, Network Rail is educating young people because their Whips tell them to or absent themselves about the dangers of the railways, particularly for because their Whips advise them not to be here. On the trespassers, and it is working with the Samaritans on 1073 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1074 initiatives to reduce the incidence of railway suicide. Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): Will the Health Secretary I will ask Ministers at the Department for Transport come to the House and give a statement on the opportunity whether they can add to my response. to expand on his health tourism consultation to include an examination of the cost to the taxpayer of visitors Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Will the securing repeat prescriptions that are then posted back Leader of the House arrange for the Home Secretary to to their home country for friends or relatives? I believe come to the House and issue a clarification on the that is becoming more prevalent. apparent proposal to introduce £3,000 visa bonds for visitors to this country from India, Pakistan and Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend raises an important Bangladesh. That proposal has caused much dismay in point. I cannot promise an immediate statement, not Leicester and threatens to put a strain on our economic least because my right hon. Friend the Secretary of ties with those nations. State for Health has published a consultation this week and will no doubt wish to take account of the responses Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman might have heard before announcing further measures. I hope that my the Prime Minister make it clear on Tuesday—I think in hon. Friend and anybody else who has evidence of response to a Member from Leicester—that we are abuse of our NHS will bring it forward, because it is working towards a pilot scheme of that kind. The right that we respond to such abuse and take measures Home Secretary will announce the details of that pilot against it. scheme in due course. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I declare an Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): There is interest as a patron of Gate-Safe, an unpaid position unprecedented interest in the 100th Tour de France, that I took up following the tragic death of two children, which is currently taking place. I am sure that all including one of my constituents, Karolina Golabek. Members would salute Mark Cavendish’s fifth stage There have been numerous other accidental deaths and victory. There is huge excitement in Yorkshire about the serious injuries caused by automatic electronic gates. 101st Tour de France, which will start in Leeds and go May we have a debate on the need to review their design around Yorkshire, through Sheffield and on to Cambridge and installation, and on the need for regular maintenance and London. May we have a statement from the by properly trained and authorised manufacturers of Government, who are working hard to make sure that it manual and automatic gates, to prevent future such is a success, to ensure that we make the most of this deaths? thrilling opportunity next year? Mr Lansley: Many Members listening to what the Mr Lansley: Yes, there is great excitement, not least in hon. Lady says will be interested to learn more. If I may, my own constituency, which, as my hon. Friend says, I will contact my colleagues at the Department for the Tour de France will reach after the grand départ in Business, Innovation and Skills in the first instance to Yorkshire. The Cabinet was briefed about it some months see how they might respond to the issue that she rightly ago, and I thought it was an interesting and exciting raises. proposal. I am pleased that the Government are backing it. I cannot promise a statement, but I urge my hon. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Friend to be here when Ministers from the Department (Con): Following the Chancellor’s announcement in of Culture, Media and Sport answer questions on last week’s comprehensive spending review that the 5 September. That may be a timely moment to talk Government will use the LIBOR fines to fund charities about further support for the Tour de France. such as Combat Stress, and yesterday’s announcement that the Ministry of Defence will make greater use of Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Earlier, in Environment, reservists in defending our country, may we have a Food and Rural Affairs questions, I raised the lessons debate on mental health, especially for reservists but of the Smethwick fire for Chinese lanterns and waste also for regulars? storage. During that fire, the West Midlands fire service and its firefighters performed magnificently, but the Mr Lansley: I cannot promise an immediate debate, service was stretched to breaking point. Indeed, I am but I hope that the mental health services that we provide informed that during the first night only one West through the NHS and in support of the armed services Midlands fire engine was left to cover the rest of the are not only comprehensive and effective but continually west midlands. May we have a debate to give a Minister improving. We are continually seeking to improve them. from the Department for Communities and Local My hon. Friend will recall that my hon. Friend the Government the opportunity to reconsider the severe Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), who cuts to the West Midlands fire service and the other is now the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, produced metropolitan authorities? the “Fighting Fit” report. In implementing it, we have put in place a number of measures that will deliver Mr Lansley: I am sure the House will share the hon. additional support to any service personnel or veterans Gentleman’s recognition of the strain that that dreadful who have mental health problems. I hope we will follow fire put on the local fire services and the magnificent through on that as fully as we can. way in which they responded to it. I will raise the issue that he mentions, but rather than wait for a debate, it Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): We expected might be better for him to be in his place on Monday the publication of the Foreign Office’s business and when DCLG Ministers are here, so that he can raise the human rights strategy towards the end of last year. It issue with them. I hope they will be able to give him has still not been published, but rumour has it that it some reassurance. will be before the summer recess. Will the Leader of the 1075 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1076

[Kerry McCarthy] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Today, the Select Committee on Education will publish its report on House ensure that it is not slipped out at the last moment, school governors and governance. It is a timely report, and that the House has a proper opportunity to debate as Education Ministers are also thinking about that it and question the Foreign Secretary on its contents? subject. May the House have the opportunity to consider school governance, not least to salute what is done by Mr Lansley: I am not aware of a planned publication our governors, and also to update their role? date, but I will inquire with my hon. Friends about what opportunities there may be to ask questions about it Mr Lansley: I hope that an opportunity will arise for subsequently. such a debate although I cannot immediately promise that. I share with my hon. Friend the sense that giving James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): greater freedoms and responsibility to schools to govern Shortly before the last election, the Leader of the House themselves through academy status and free schools went with me to Rowley Regis hospital, which at the depends not only on the professional leadership of the time had just lost its last two in-patient wards. While he school, but on the support it receives from the governing was Secretary of State for Health, the hospital opened a body. Members of those governing bodies are to be new in-patient reablement unit, and it has just announced congratulated on the support they give. that another ward will reopen in autumn. As we celebrate the NHS’s 65th birthday, may we have a debate on the Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): May I press the Leader steps taken by the Government to ensure that local of the House further on the statement made yesterday health services are driven by doctors in partnership with by the Defence Secretary? Based on what we heard this local patients? morning, the draft statement leaves many questions unanswered. For instance, I do not know why Widnes Mr Lansley: I cannot promise an immediate debate, TA barracks is being closed, or the consequences of but it is timely to recognise the work done in the NHS. I that. Clearly I am opposed to that, and it is important remember visiting Rowley Regis hospital—if I recall that the Leader of the House speaks to the Secretary of correctly it is part of the Sandwell and West Birmingham State about coming to the House to answer further NHS Trust, which was at the forefront of clinicians questions. taking greater ownership of the services they provide. Tomorrow is the 65th anniversary of the NHS, and Mr Lansley: I think it would be fair for the hon. universal access to comprehensive health care for all at Gentleman to recognise that in addition to the White the point of need is one of this country’s greatest assets, Paper yesterday, there was a written ministerial statement— of which we are rightly proud. albeit that it came later than it should done—that set I want personally to say to the one and a third million out the order of battle, as it were, for reserve forces, people who work in the NHS that we thank them and which are re-shaping because of their extended role and value what they do. I know, not least from personal increased numbers. There is a complex relationship experience on many occasions, that they want to achieve between those things, and the Secretary of State could the best care for patients. That is why I put clinical hardly attempt to explain that in detail in relation to leadership, with accountability for quality and excellence individual locations in his statement yesterday.All Members in outcomes and care for patients, at the heart of our should accept that that could not have been achieved NHS reforms. To be true to its mission, we need an that day in any case, and the issue needs to be examined NHS that is envied for its excellence, not just its availability. afterwards. If Members want further detail on particular That is why the shift from a top-down target culture locations, they should correspond with Ministers at the that covers up failure to one that is open and accountable Ministry of Defence to hear more about that. in its outcomes will be a validation of the NHS, not a condemnation. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The Prime Minister’s request in February for Professor Bruce Keogh to review Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): On Tuesday, the the quality of care provided by NHS trusts with above Select Committee on Home Affairs heard evidence average mortality rates has put 14 hospital trusts, including from the police and crime commissioner for Gwent. At East Lancashire Hospitals NHS trust, under the spotlight. that meeting, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Following the announcement, I wrote to Sir Bruce to Clwyd (Chris Ruane) asked a number of extremely ask him to look specifically at the impact of the perceptive questions. I was therefore surprised to read a downgrading of Burnley General’s accident and emergency tweet after the meeting by the Gwent PCC, who said department in 2007 under the previous Government. that my hon. Friend was there as a “plant” for Gwent The findings of the review will not be made available MPs. Such a remark is a huge discourtesy to Gwent until 19 July, I believe—the day after the House has MPs, to my superb hon. Friend the Member for Vale of risen for the summer recess. May we have an early Clwyd, and to a Select Committee of this House. May debate once the House returns to discuss the outcome we have a debate on this? of the review?

Mr Lansley: If I may, I will just say that I entirely Mr Lansley: I must confess that I was not aware of agree with the hon. Gentleman. I know as a matter of the date on which Bruce Keogh was planning to publish simple fact that Members of this House do not go to his review of mortality rates at 14 hospitals, but I will of Select Committees as a plant for anybody else; they ask course inquire of my colleagues as to what is planned. questions on their own account and on behalf of the Clearly I cannot anticipate the conclusions of the review. House. We should respect them for that, as should I remember visiting Burnley with my hon. Friend and witnesses to the Committees. I am very pleased that we were able subsequently to 1077 Business of the House4 JULY 2013 Business of the House 1078 secure additional investment into Burnley to support Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): May services. It was transparent to all of us that the previous we have a debate on the Government’s latest plans to changes had left many people in Burnley and related reform civil legal aid? Last Thursday we had an excellent districts very unclear as to what services were available debate in the Chamber on the reforms, but the issue of to them, or ought to be available to them. I hope that civil legal aid was largely missed, particularly with what has been done subsequently has significantly remedied regard to judicial review and the Lord Chancellor’s that. barmy idea not to allow prisoners to access legal advice unless and only if they are opposing a parole decision. Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Twenty three- year-old Tafadzwa Sarupinda and 15-year-old Tapiwanashe Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman must recognise the Sarupinda came to the UK in 2000 with their aunt, who requirement to reform legal aid; there are issues of now has British citizenship. The children do not. My fairness, of quantum and of the resources expended on predecessor wrote to the Home Secretary two years ago legal aid, and there is also the need to secure savings. asking for this to be resolved. Tafadzwa says: My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor rightly has made it clear that those savings had to be achieved, but “I pray and cry as each year passes. My life is on hold.” has listened to the representations made in the consultation. Will the Leader of the House assist me and prevail The Law Society was very clear that it was able to upon the Home Secretary to try to intervene and resolve accommodate additional choice while understanding this case? that the need for savings had to be met. It was very fair on the part of the Lord Chancellor to respond positively Mr Lansley: AsIhopeIamabletodoforallMPs,I to that. will endeavour to secure a response to the hon. Gentleman in relation to his continuing problem with his constituent. Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Please may we have a debate on tomorrow’s 65th birthday Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): This week we of the NHS? As the NHS changes from a target-based have learned that, over the past three years, the BBC has culture to a more open culture, and when various historic spent £25 million on severance packages for 150 senior failures are coming to light, some of the achievements executives, a quarter of whom received more than they of the NHS, such as the removal of mixed-sex wards, were entitled to, while in Whitehall a permanent secretary improved cancer and stroke care, and the sheer hard has accepted a severance package of almost half a work of those who work in it, are all in danger of being million pounds, £200,000 of which was in the form of missed. If we were to have a birthday debate, we would a discretionary payment. My constituents in Kettering be able to take a more rounded and celebratory view. are outraged at this public sector largesse. May we have Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I had statements from the Department for Culture, Media the privilege of attending the 50th and 60th anniversary and Sport about the abuse of licence fee-payers’ money celebrations. At 65, the value that this country derives and from the Cabinet Office about what it will do to from having a national health service, with the principles stop mandarins getting excessive compensation payments? that underpin it, is undiminished. As I said earlier, it is important that people in the NHS know full well that Mr Lansley: If I may, I will not repeat myself; I am the NHS will carry that respect and valuation into the sure my hon. Friend will have heard what I said earlier future only if it continues to put quality and outcomes about the BBC and about what the role of the Public at its heart. Building on recent announcements on Accounts Committee might be. I shall raise the other publication of data and greater transparency on outcomes issue with the Minister for the Cabinet Office, my right will enable clinicians and the NHS to demonstrate hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), or internationally not only that it is the most universally the Chief Secretary, both of whom are very concerned accessible service anywhere in the world, but that it can about the issue. be among the most excellent, too. 1079 4 JULY 2013 Remploy 1080

Remploy when details become available. I can also confirm that offers have been received for the E-Cycle business, which has factories based at Porth and Heywood. I am pleased 11.41 am to say that the E-Cycle business will remain in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work commercial process, as Remploy begins to work with and Pensions (Esther McVey): With permission, Mr Speaker, the preferred bidder, with the aim of completing the I would like to make a statement on Remploy. business sale in mid-August. Today’s announcement by Remploy means that jobs Following independent and expert advice, Remploy for approximately 70%—515—of the disabled employees has carefully considered best and final offers received in the remaining Remploy factories and CCTV sites for the three other businesses: Frontline textiles, Marine could be saved through the commercial process. The textiles and packaging. Remploy, together with an sites and businesses are subject to final negotiations independent panel of experts including KPMG, has with preferred bidders looking to take over the businesses. assessed the viability of these best and final offers Hon. Members will agree that our first concern must be against a series of published criteria, including the Remploy employees, and they have been informed of continued employment of disabled people, value for the latest decisions by the Remploy board today. There money and the sustainability of the businesses. Our are now 234 disabled people at risk of redundancy and priority throughout the process has been to safeguard they will take part in individual consultations with jobs, which is why we have offered a wage subsidy of up Remploy. All employees affected will be supported by to £6,400 for disabled employees to encourage interested the £8 million tailored package of support to help them parties to come forward. move into mainstream work. Despite considerable interest in the Marine and Frontline If I may remind the House, the Government announced textile businesses at Leven, Cowdenbeath, Stirling, Dundee in March 2012 that we would implement the and Clydebank, Remploy did not receive a best and recommendations of the Sayce review to withdraw funding final offer for these businesses as part of the commercial from Remploy factories and redirect it to enable more process. Additionally, there are no viable bids for the disabled people to get jobs in the labour market. We packaging businesses based at Norwich, Portsmouth, have always made it clear that this is about supporting Burnley and Sunderland. These sites will now move to individuals in factories and disabled people across the closure. In line with the Remploy redundancy procedures, country. As it stood, Remploy factories were losing all 284 employees at the packaging, Frontline and Marine £50 million—a sixth of the specialist disability employment textile businesses, including 234 disabled employees, budget. That money was not going to people but to will be invited to individual consultation meetings over failing factories, and that cannot be right. As announced the next 30 days to discuss the options and the support in the spending review, the Government have confirmed that will be available to them. £350 million to support disabled people to move into, Our experience with stage 1 shows that businesses remain in or progress in work. such as textiles that did not have commercial interest On 6 December 2012, I tabled a written statement to and closed afterwards re-opened as social enterprises or inform the House that the Remploy board had commenced new businesses. In fact, nine sites have been sold on that stage two of its commercial process. The aim was to basis. This has resulted in employment opportunities transfer the remaining seven businesses in 18 factories for the original employees. For example, businesses have and the 27 CCTV contracts, potentially affecting opened under new ownership in Bolton and Wigan, and 1,016 employees. The Remploy board identified three at similar factories, which are looking to create 35 jobs businesses as potentially viable and appointed KPMG, for disabled people, including former Remploy employees. as a professional agent, to manage the sale of the In addition, Remploy has already confirmed that it has CCTV, furniture and automotive businesses. Of the received an asset bid from a social enterprise organisation 27 CCTV contracts, 17 are subject to the commercial for the purchase of assets of the textiles business. This process. KPMG, appointed by Remploy, is currently may create potential job opportunities for those disabled working through that process, which it hopes to complete people. shortly. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that We have put in place a people help and support eight of the remaining 10 contracts have either been package for all disabled employees to provide a taken back in-house by the local authorities or moved to comprehensive range of support for all disabled individuals alternative service providers. This means that approximately made redundant as a result of Remploy factory closures. 50 employees will be, or have been, transferred to new This tailored support is available for individuals to employers. However, it is likely that the remaining two access for up to 18 months after their factory closes and contracts will be terminated. I can also confirm that in includes access to a personal caseworker and a personal addition to CCTV, the furniture businesses based in budget to help individuals with future choices. I can Port Talbot, Sheffield and Blackburn will remain in the confirm that the personal caseworkers have already commercial process. begun engaging with employees on stage 2 Remploy I confirm that Remploy has received a number of sites. This has provided an important opportunity to good-quality innovative bids for its automotive business. give individuals currently at risk of redundancy the In the next few weeks, KPMG will continue commercial information they need about their opportunities moving discussions with a number of bidders who have expressed forward. We will continue to do everything we can do in an interest in acquiring the whole business, which has finding them work. 217 employees, including 179 disabled people based in We have also built into the package a community the sites in Birmingham, Coventry and Derby. KPMG support fund to provide grants to local voluntary sector aims to have identified a preferred bidder in a matter of and user-led organisations to run social job club projects weeks. I will provide further written updates on progress to support disabled people and their families. Some 1081 Remploy4 JULY 2013 Remploy 1082

32 organisations have already been awarded funding, The textile division based in Scotland has a long and supporting 748 ex-Remploy employees locally. There proud tradition of making security and chemical protection has been welcome success during stage 1 in terms of the wear for the Ministry of Defence, and the disappearance number of disabled former Remploy staff who have of the skills built up over many years will be a great loss. found alternative employment. We have every expectation The textile division recently lost a major MOD contract that job outcomes from stage 2 will be similar. As at that it was eminently capable of carrying out, given the 28 June, 400 of the 1,103 disabled former Remploy quality and timeliness of its work. Given that the factories workers who chose to work with us are currently in are under pressure of closure, will the Minister tell us work and a further 328 are working with Work Choice whether she or any of her officials had any engagement to undertake other training activities. with MOD procurement officials to encourage them to In closing, let me confirm that the factories going use Remploy as a supplier, given that it had carried out forward in the commercial process are the CCTV contract, the work successfully over many years? It has never the furniture businesses in Port Talbot, Sheffield and been properly recognised that much of the kit worn by Blackburn, the automotive sites in Birmingham, Coventry our service personnel in Afghanistan and Iraq was and Derby, and the E-Cycle business in Porth and made in Remploy factories. Did the Minister use her Heywood. Those that will be closing are the Marine good offices to encourage the MOD to award that and Frontline textile businesses in Leven, Cowdenbeath, contract to Remploy, if necessary using article 19? Stirling, Dundee and Clydebank, and the packaging Will the Minister also explain what she meant when businesses in Norwich, Portsmouth, Burnley and she said that there was an asset bid from a social enterprise Sunderland. I have written to all affected MPs and company for the textile section? What opportunities parliamentarians, inviting them to a briefing session does she believe that that bid will open up? Many of us today at 4.30 pm in Room S, Portcullis House. I commend on this side of the House see the words “asset bid” and this statement to the House. worry that they might really mean asset stripping. We need to know exactly what is involved. 11.49 am I also want to ask the Minister to define the word Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I thank the Minister “success”, which she used in the closing paragraph of for her statement, and for giving us advance warning of her statement. She mentioned that about 1,100 former it just after 9 o’clock this morning. If there were a Remploy workers were choosing to work with personal league table for the way in which Departments advise us caseworkers to find other jobs. In other words, they are of ministerial statements, hers would certainly be ahead not currently in employment. Another 400 are in work of the Ministry of Defence. and another 300 are in training, so by my calculation, Given the great interest in Remploy, will the Minister significantly less than 50% of the former Remploy tell us what efforts were made to inform Members with workers who have already been made redundant are a Remploy factory in their constituency that their factory currently in employment. I am wondering what the was due to close? I understand that a letter went out at Minister’s benchmark for success is. 11.40 this morning, just one minute before she stood up Given that the Work programme is performing three to make her statement— times worse than doing nothing for disabled people—

Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What did you do when The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain you closed Remploy factories— Duncan Smith): Rubbish.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Mrs McGuire: The Secretary of State keeps saying “rubbish”, but he needs to listen—[Interruption.] I did Mrs McGuire: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am not realise that the Minister had brought along— sorry; I might have touched a nerve. [Interruption.] I also wonder, given the way in which the House works, whether the Minister had given Members advance Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am warning of her briefing at 4.30 this afternoon. sure that we need to hear both sides. I was happy to hear I shall turn now to the substance of the review. The the Minister and will certainly be happy to hear and Minister often cites the Sayce review, as did her predecessor, wish to hear the shadow Minister. Interruptions are not as protection for her decisions. I would remind the helpful. House, however, that the Sayce review did not recommend the speedy closure of the Remploy factories in the way Mrs McGuire: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. If that the Government have progressed it. Indeed, it the Secretary of State wants to say something, he should recommended a phased development of the process. make his own statements and not heckle. Once again, however, the review has been brought into play. The Government’s aim has always to get rid of the Given that the Work programme—[Interruption.] Remploy liability in this financial year, and no matter This is ridiculous, Mr Deputy Speaker, frankly. Given what else was said, this was always going to be the that the Work programme is not performing for disabled cut-off point. That has been confirmed this morning. people, can the Minister say how the former Remploy Of course I welcome the fact that viable bids have been workers are going to be supported in their quest for received for some of the factories and that 17 of the employment? 27 CCTV businesses are in the commercial process. I Finally, if the Minister looks at the areas where the also welcome the Minister’s comment that it appears Remploy closures are happening, she will find that there that eight of the other 10 will continue in one form or are unemployment rates of 7.5%, 8.2%, 8.1%, 7.4% and another. 7.9%—nearly double the national average—in the majority 1083 Remploy4 JULY 2013 Remploy 1084

[Mrs McGuire] into whether an increase in public sector procurement was possible, but it proved not to be, following an of cases. Does she really think that the closure of these overestimate of 130%. factories today is an indication that she is really there to The right hon. Lady also forgot to mention that she support disabled workers? had closed 29 factories in 2008. In that instance, 1,637 people were not tracked, and did not benefit from an investment Esther McVey: I am led to believe that the etiquette of of £8 million and the provision of personal caseworkers. the House is to come here first to give a statement, We have done all those things. I have met ex-Remploy which is entirely what I did. I believe, too, that this is a workers. I went to Talit’s house in Oldham, and asked working parliamentary day—a full working day—so all him what he wanted, and I met Chris from Burnley here the processes we undertook were carried out to the best at the House of Commons. We helped to reshape the possible standard. People were informed through a whole package with the help of those people. correct process and in the correct way. I am glad that we We have done a great deal, and, although there is can put that on the record. more to do, I am proud of what we have done. Moving forward, what this was all about was supporting disabled people. We had a situation in which £50 million—a Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Does my hon. sixth of the entire budget—was not supporting individuals, Friend agree that at a time when there are 6.9 million but going into failing factories. We cannot allow that to disabled people of working age in the United Kingdom, be case. We have therefore made sure that we support we need to find a better way of using the budget that is those individuals. There are 8,500 disabled people in the available, rather than supporting loss-making factories constituency of the right hon. Member for Stirling which employ only a tiny fraction of those people? (Mrs McGuire), but only 29 of them, along with two non-disabled people, were employed at Remploy, making Esther McVey: I entirely agree. We must proceed with a total of 31 people. The Remploy factory in her care and consideration, and we must also listen to the constituency turned over £71,000 a year, but actually views of disability groups, advisers and experts, all of lost £439,000 a year. whom say that they would like to see more disabled I have faith in Remploy employment services to be people in mainstream work. That is what we must do: able to find those people jobs. Since 2010, Remploy provide proper, sustainable, full-time jobs. employment services have found a job for 109 people with the same disabilities. That is 109 in two years, while Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Today’s there are only 29 disabled people at this factory. Those announcement will not affect the Remploy factory in are the statistics for the right hon. Lady’s constituency, Aberdeen, because it has already closed, although a and they are the same for many others. social enterprise has been running the textiles business very successfully, which suggests that the factory had I did indeed look into the MOD contracts. There are the potential to be more successful than the Minister various criteria, which have to be adhered to—the cost has suggested. However, the social enterprise was formed to taxpayers, for example, and various others—and I by the more able workers, and those who have remained also looked at article 19. It was put in place, which unemployed are the most disabled. Do the Government meant that Remploy factories could be considered, but think that there is still a need for sheltered workplaces article 19 also says that offers have to be viable and in this country? value for money, which was not the case. On the asset bid, I said that no best and final offer Esther McVey: I agree with what the hon. Lady has came forward, although there were expressions of interest said about what happened in Aberdeen. People have in the Marine and Frontline textiles businesses. An asset come together, and some of the workers involved have bid, however, has now come forward from a social made progress. However, the most severely disabled enterprise, so we have faith that this can move forward. need to be helped into work and supported while they Our criteria for the bid involve, first of all, the employment are there. We have therefore announced a £350 million of disabled people. strategy, on which we shall be working over the summer. Let me add, to put the right hon. Lady’s mind at rest, Moreover, in July we shall be launching a two-year that following the submission of assets bids during awareness campaign at an employment conference, bringing stage 1, the factories in Wigan, Wrexham, Oldham, together employers, employees and disabled entrepreneurs north London, Motherwell, Bridgend, Bolton and Birkenhead have reopened. John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): As the Minister knows, a social enterprise bid has been submitted I described as a success, and warmly welcomed, the for factories in Coventry, Birmingham and Derby. It process during stage 1 which led to 400 people obtaining has received considerable public support, including from jobs and 328 being involved in some form of training, me. It is well financed and well advised, and above all it because that has happened at a faster rate than has been is inclusive. Can the Minister suggest a way of ensuring the case following any other regular redundancy. that it succeeds? Furthermore, nine factories have reopened. I have read the written statement made by the right Esther McVey: At present, that bid is still part of the hon. Lady in November 2007, and the report of the oral commercial process. There have been several significant statement made during the same month by the right bids for the automotive industry. KPMG is currently hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). At that time, everyone working on the process with Remploy. We must ensure was looking for a way of making the factories work. that the best bid is successful, so that there are jobs now The Labour Government put in more than half a billion and there will be jobs in the future for those disabled for modernisation, but that did not work. They looked people. 1085 Remploy4 JULY 2013 Remploy 1086

Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): On Monday, I asked the It absolutely has not. A year after the factory closed, many Minister how many disabled people stayed in a job after of the workers still do not have a job. There is no 12 months. She said: guarantee that when that factory is eventually opened by “Of the nearly 13,000 people who have started on Work someone else any ex-Remploy worker will get a job there. Choice, a third—30%—have stayed in work.”—[Official Report, 1 July 2013; Vol. 565, c. 595.] Esther McVey: I read out the names of the factories, Given that many disabled people have been employed including Bolton. It is anticipated that up to 10 employment for 12 months, has she assessed why 70% of them are opportunities for disabled people will result as social not staying in work long term? enterprises come forward. The hon. Gentleman is right: the factory may not be open at this moment but it is Esther McVey: The hon. Gentleman makes a good going through the process of opening, so considerable point. We are looking at that, at what we can do and at work is being done. That is why I can say that that has the best way forward. That is why we have a brand new, happened and is happening—we have been dealing with two-year specialist disability employment strategy, which it for two years, knowing that it is happening. will start later in July, to see what is the best support we can give to those people. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that work programmes for the disabled should be Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Could efficient but, most important, they should be effective? my hon. Friend confirm for people in Norwich what Esther McVey: My hon. Friend is correct. They have kind of support package they will have? She mentioned to be effective—that is what everybody wants—but the something about access to personal budgets and similar answer is more complex than that, because they have to support. be tailor-made and we have to look at the individual. So, yes, they must be efficient, but first and foremost Esther McVey: My hon. Friend asks a good question: they must be effective, caring and tailored to the individual. what support do we offer and how do we provide that support? It is tailored to what the person needs, whether Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): But is not the truth it is help with CVs or extra training, or support into the that amid all the Minister’s spin and management-speak, workplace. Therefore, it is dictated not by me but by the she is strangling Remploy to death, and there is no person who is coming forward who needs that help. prospect of the most vulnerable disabled workers in their 50s who work there all the time getting jobs in Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The Minister referred to mainstream employment? By the way, her description the Wrexham site. She should claim no credit whatever of the 2008 programme is a total travesty. There was a in respect of Wrexham. It was she and Remploy who £550 million subsidy for that, which she has cut savagely, made the decision not to allow the business to continue and there was a programme for getting people into there, and it has now moved to an alternative site. The mainstream work, too. Also, she has given no guarantees, factory remains closed and empty. When the Government despite my asking the Secretary of State, and nor has asset-strip the Wrexham site, what will they do with the the preferred bidder, who is based in Yorkshire, that the proceeds from the sale of the land? Neath Port Talbot site at Baglan will remain open. Can she give a guarantee on that now? Esther McVey: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that the Wrexham site is being Esther McVey: I have a couple of points to make to sold with a view to making 10 to 20 jobs available for the right hon. Gentleman. There was no spin in what I some of the ex-Remploy staff. That is the reality, which said; those were the numbers, and he is more than is far from the picture he is painting. welcome to verify them. As for his comment about strangling, that is incorrect, too. I would say “liberating”. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Minister will be That is why some of the factories that closed have aware that I have always been and remain opposed to reopened and we are supporting them as best we can. the closure of the Remploy factories, but given the If I were him, I would claim no credit for spending amnesia among those on the Opposition Benches, may £555 million in 2008 on a modernisation process that I remind her that when the last Labour Government went nowhere, or for estimates for contracts in the closed the Remploy factory in Bradford, they gave next public sector that were grossly exaggerated—by 130%—and to no support to the workers there and did not even which never came to pass. Ours are real, they have been monitor whether they found a job? Does she agree that justified, they are monitored by an expert panel and that was totally unacceptable and that what is most KPMG is involved as well. important is that we do everything to find these people, who want and deserve to work, a job? The Government Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): To put today’s have a duty to help them as much as they can. statement in context, is it not fair to say that over the past three years Remploy employment services has found Esther McVey: My hon. Friend raises many key points, employment for 35,000 disabled and disadvantaged people, which are correct. Stages 1 and 2 were so difficult many of whom have similar disabilities to those employed because there was no blueprint in 2008, and those in the factories? people were not supported, tracked or monitored. It was shameful of Labour not to do that. Esther McVey: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is exactly what it has been doing. It has Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): I do found people jobs in mainstream work at a fraction of not understand why the Minister is misleading the the cost. It can do it, we know we can do it, and that is House by saying that the Motherwell factory has opened. what we are going to do. 1087 Remploy4 JULY 2013 Remploy 1088

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): As far so can my hon. Friend the Minister give us a sense of as I am concerned, Remploy was one strand of social the additional disabled people who could be helped into services to help people with disabilities and give them work as a result of these changes? dignity. More specifically, however, what is the Minister going to do to help Remploy in Coventry to develop a Esther McVey: My hon. Friend asks a very good social enterprise there? It is facing problems with the question: how many more people can be helped into acquisition of the land. Will she meet me, along with work, and into mainstream work? That is what we are one or two of my colleagues, to discuss that? doing. We now have £350 million to do that. We have got to look at what works, get value for money and Esther McVey: I will indeed meet the hon. Gentleman support as many people as possible. to discuss that. I should add that that is one of the automotive businesses, and it has attracted considerable Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): interest because it is a viable business. KPMG is currently First, may I echo the positive message from my right working on that with Remploy, and I will table a written hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) statement shortly about what will happen there. The about the advance notice given? That certainly compares hon. Gentleman is right, however, that this is about very favourably with the MOD. On Cowdenbeath Remploy, dignity and supporting disabled people, and that is there will be great disappointment in my constituency what we are doing. and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy), and the Minister knows the excellent Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Following on from work done by us and my right hon. Friend the Member the comments of the Chair of the Work and Pensions for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Will she Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame meet the three of us as soon as possible to discuss what Anne Begg), many of us are interested in the details of the options are for the two factories in Fife? the Government’s national strategy for helping disabled people back into the world of work, whether through Esther McVey: I will indeed. I have met the hon. Jobcentre Plus, social enterprise, or supporting job clubs. Gentleman and his colleagues as a collective group in My hon. Friend has talked about work that will be done the past, and I will certainly do so again. in the summer, so will she give an undertaking to come back to the House when Parliament returns in September George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): One or October to update us on the national strategy, because of the barriers to disabled people going into mainstream all of us have disabled people in our constituencies who employment is a misconception among employers that want to get back into the world of work, and we are it will somehow cause them difficulty, although the keen to understand how we can engage with them and evidence shows that the employers who overcome their the Government to make sure they do get back into the apprehension often find that the disabled person world of work? compensates for their disability by having much greater ability in other respects and therefore becomes a very Esther McVey: I will indeed come back to the House valued member of their team. What more can be done to speak about our national employment strategy; that to educate employers and persuade them to give disabled is only fair and correct. We have been working on it for people a chance? some time. We have been analysing the Work Choice and Work programme figures and looking at other Esther McVey: My hon. Friend makes a terrific point. social support, such as job clubs, and we have developed This is all about awareness, and it is important to for the first time ever this community support fund and understand that only 3% of people are born with disabilities opened 32 different sites across the country helping but most of us will acquire one during our life, probably almost 750 disabled people. in our 40s and 50s, so we have to do what we can because we all have a vested interest. On my hon. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): Friend’s specific point, we will be holding a disability The disabilities Minister has talked a lot about opportunities employment event in July, bringing together some of and moving forward, so is she satisfied that in Hull in the biggest employers locally, nationally and internationally the first year of the Work programme only 10 people to ask them, “What are you doing, how do we spread with disabilities were found work? Is that acceptable? best practice, and what can we do to support you?”

Esther McVey: As the hon. Lady says, we are working Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): How many on the Work programme and taking huge strides forward, employees at Remploy in Abertillery, closed last year, and I am looking at the specialist disability support have now got jobs? Unfortunately, as of December, just such as Work Choice and how to reshape it to make it three out of 21 had jobs. even better. Esther McVey: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): In the There were 35, actually, in December who had a job, last Parliament we on the Work and Pensions Committee and because of that we completely reshaped the process, looked at the Labour Government’s decision to close a so now, he will be pleased to know, 400 people have a number of Remploy factories, and I have to say that the job, 328 are in training, and that is out of the 1,100 who collective amnesia of Labour Members, which was most came forward for support. ably demonstrated by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), who oversaw the closure of Remploy factories Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): May I thank in Wales when he was Welsh Secretary, is extraordinary. the Minister for coming to the House and the Secretary The people concerned is what is important here, however, of State for being present? May I also thank the Minister 1089 Remploy4 JULY 2013 Remploy 1090 for the way this statement has been presented to the is used to help as many disabled people as possible back House, with the ministerial briefing that will be given to into work, as opposed to spending such a large sum on colleagues later and the fact that she took the time a small number of loss-making factories. to write to Members who were affected by this? That is the way a statement should be handled, and she should Esther McVey: My hon. Friend makes a good point. be congratulated—and I am afraid I must say that Yes, that budget was protected in the spending review the speech by the right hon. Member for Stirling and we have committed to £350 million to support (Mrs McGuire), who spoke for the Opposition, was one disabled people into work. That money has got to be of the worst I have ever heard. best spent on people—not on failing businesses—to support them into work. Esther McVey: I do not know what to say to that, but I think I might even be blushing. Thank you. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): The loss of a further five Remploy factories in Scotland will Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): The Government be a devastating blow to disabled people in Scotland. spent £248 million less than anticipated on the Work Does the Minister not accept that, with the National programme in 2012-13, owing to provider under- Audit Office now conducting an inquiry into the shambles performance under payment by results. In view of the of a tendering process at the Springburn factory in my disappointing figures about the number of ex-Remploy constituency, with growing evidence of asset-stripping workers who have managed to find re-employment, can and of confidential contracts signed on this Government’s this underspend be used to extend proven alternative watch between Remploy and private companies, this programmes for disadvantaged jobseekers, like the Work Government have sold the jobs of disabled people down Choice programme for disabled people and Access to the river? Work, which helps them cope with some of the obstacles they might face in the workplace? Esther McVey: I ask the hon. Gentleman to be very cautious with the words he throws around the Chamber, Esther McVey: I am not sure that the hon. Lady has many of which are inaccurate. He is correct to say that been listening. These are not disappointing figures; they more information has gone to the NAO about the are better than those for most other redundancies—that health care business and the commercial process that is how fast these people are getting into employment. was undertaken, but the NAO will then just be considering We have given personal support. People are going on whether it wants to take this further and look further Work Choice and getting the tailored support they into the programme. There has been no asset-stripping. need, and we are doing this for 18 months. There has been full governance and procedure in this commercial process, undertaken by an independent panel Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): and by KPMG. Remploy is a legal entity in its own Does my hon. Friend recall a fantastic Marks & Start right and it is the legal steward of what goes forward. I event she attended in my constituency last year, where warn the hon. Gentleman to be very careful with his not only were more than 1,000 newly created jobs accusations. announced, but 200 of them were reserved for people with disabilities? Does she agree that that is an excellent Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): If nothing had been model of how to help those with disabilities into sustainable done and Remploy had continued to suck up resources, employment? what would the impact have been on other programmes to help disabled people back into mainstream work and Esther McVey: I do indeed remember being at Castle on the inclusion agenda? Donington with my hon. Friend at the Marks & Start site. This was a distribution centre looking for 1,000 Esther McVey: We have to look at what disabled employees, many of them disabled. He, like me, will be people want to do now, and they have said clearly that pleased to know that it is ahead of its target and is they want to be a part of mainstream society. They getting more disabled people into work there. want to be in mainstream jobs and they are looking towards their goals and aspirations. We are helping Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): In them with that, be it as part of the alliance, as part of terms of helping people with their future choices, will disabled people’s user-led organisations, as part of the the Minister give the House a commitment that she role models programme or, as I said, as part of our new will continue to track the fortunes of these people? Will disability employment strategy. she regularly update us on how many find themselves in full-time work and how many end up in part-time, Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does the hon. temporary or unpaid work? Lady have any guarantees that the companies that will be taking over the Remploy businesses will continue to Esther McVey: I will indeed, and I keep abreast of the focus on employing disabled people in the future? figures on a weekly basis. That figure of 400 who have got a job did not include people who were on less than Esther McVey: Let us examine how the bids were 16 hours, so more than that number are in work on looked at and what the key criteria were for being taken fewer hours. forward and selected as the preferred bidder. The No. 1 criterion, goal and aim was the employment of disabled Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Will my hon. people. After that came viability, sustainability and Friend confirm that the specialist disability employment value for the taxpayer, so employing disabled people budget has been protected in the latest spending round? was first and foremost at the heart of these commercial Consequently, it is all the more important that this money processes. 1091 Remploy 4 JULY 2013 1092

Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Roughly what Points of Order percentage of Remploy employees are disabled ex-service personnel? 12.25 pm Esther McVey: I will have to get back to my hon. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point Friend on that. I do not know who were ex-service of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is about the extremely personnel, because now all types of disabled people, offensive remark made by the shadow Leader of the from all different backgrounds, are working there. However, House, to whom I have given notice, about me and I know that our key aim is to help all disabled people some other Members at business questions. She accused into mainstream work. us of being Taliban, and at a time when the brave men and women of our armed forces are fighting these evil people, and some of us have very close personal relationships with people serving in Afghanistan, I found that to be a completely objectionable remark. I wonder whether there is any way in which it could be withdrawn.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Would the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) like to comment on that before I make a ruling?

Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman has indeed given notification to my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), who regrets that, because of the running of the day, she is unable to be here. She has been clear that this is not the first time she has used the phrase “Tory Taliban”, and she has said on many occasions that that is what is said on ConservativeHome. As far as she understands it, it is a self-proclaimed term and she means no disrespect to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), for whom she has a great deal of affection.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I would say that this is about using moderate language in the Chamber. Obviously, if people are offended, of course we do think about what we say in future. It is not a point of order, but it has certainly been aired a little bit.

Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I seek your advice, because last week the chief executive of NHS England appeared before us on the Public Administration Committee. He gave a clear answer to a question that I asked, saying that he would ensure that e-mails were released to the Yorkshire and Humber health and scrutiny committee. Since then, NHS England staff have again refused to do that. How do we ensure that when people, particularly those with such an important role in the public sector, give an answer to a parliamentary Select Committee they are held to it to ensure that they do what they say they are going to do?

Mr Deputy Speaker: As the hon. Gentleman will know, that is not a matter for myself in the Chair on the Floor of the House. The message has certainly been sent out loud and clear, and it will be recorded. I feel it is something that the Chair of the Committee may wish to take up as well. 1093 4 JULY 2013 1094

SUPPLY AND APPROPRIATION (MAIN ESTIMATES) BILL Backbench Business Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time. NATO Question agreed to. 12.28 pm Bill accordingly read a Second time. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I beg to move, Question put forthwith, That the Bill be now read the That this House has considered NATO. Third time. Let me begin by thanking the Backbench Business Question agreed to. Committee for granting us time for this afternoon’s Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. debate. I thank colleagues, particularly fellow members of the UK delegation to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, for joining me in requesting this debate. We used to have three or four defence debates a year in this House in Government time, but when the Government allocated time to the Backbench Business Committee they gave up, among other things, those general defence debates. I am therefore grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for giving those of us with an interest in defence and security some of that time back. I hope that when members of the Committee read the report of the debate they will feel that it was worth while and that if we make applications in the future we might get similar debates, perhaps twice a year after the two annual sessions of the Assembly. As delegates to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly—I see in the Chamber many colleagues on both sides of the House who are part of the delegation—we have a responsibility to report back to colleagues on the work of our Assembly and of NATO. On my way into the House today, an hon. Member who had seen the agenda for this afternoon simply said to me, “You are having this debate, but why do we need NATO?” It is a question that those of us who believe that there is still a need for collective security and joint action with our allies must answer convincingly, not just for fellow Members of the House who do not share our view, but for members of the public who are often sceptical about the defence and security missions with which our country is involved and increasingly want a say in defence and foreign policy matters. NATO, in a attempt to address that question, recently adopted a new strategic concept to define its role and mission. I do not believe, however, that we can any longer be satisfied that Ministers, ambassadors and generals understand what NATO is for. We need to explain to the public—and, clearly, from this morning’s conversation with a colleague, to other Members of Parliament—why it is still relevant and necessary. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I commend the hon. Gentleman and others for securing today’s debate. Will he confirm to other Members that his dealings with delegates from other NATO member states, particularly those from northern Europe, including Norway, Denmark and Iceland, show that they believe that the challenge of the Arctic and high north—in our backyard—should be taken seriously? Does it concern him that the Arctic and high north did not feature once in the last strategic defence and security review published by the Ministry of Defence and that the UK has declined to take part in NATO air policing operations operating from Keflavik in Iceland? Hugh Bayley: I certainly agree that that is an extremely important issue in security, trade and environmental terms. The Arctic Council is one of the forums in which 1095 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1096

[Hugh Bayley] security and co-operation rather than developing NATO as a stronger, bigger military force, and that that could NATO member countries—the United States, Denmark have brought about a level of disarmament rather than and Canada—meet and discuss matters with Russia rearmament? and other Scandinavian countries that border the Arctic. I do not think they would want the United Kingdom to Hugh Bayley: There has been considerable disarmament join the Arctic Council as a full member, but we most and a big peace dividend on both sides of the former certainly need to co-operate on these issues. iron curtain since the collapse of the Berlin wall. An attempt was made to rebuild a different relationship in Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Will my hon. Europe in which the Assembly played a large part, Friend give way? working with the emerging democratic movements in central Europe and in the eastern European countries Hugh Bayley: I will, because I know that my hon. Friend to help them establish the institutions that enabled them has taken a particularly strong interest in this matter in the fullness of time to join both NATO and the within the Assembly. European Union. The door remains open—to countries such as Georgia, for instance. Indeed, I have had heard Mrs Moon: Let me reassure Members that NATO Russian delegates—they attend the Assembly as a takes the high north seriously. I have been fortunate confidence-building measure and because we have a enough twice to go as a delegate to the high north and a joint NATO-Russia parliamentary committee—ask whether NATO conference was held in Tromsø two years ago to if, at some future date, Russia were to want to form an consider the issues of climate change and the defence association with or to join the alliance, it would be risks to our back door, which is largely vulnerable and possible for it to do so. It is important not to build new undefended by NATO. barriers between parties in Europe or between Europe and other parts of the world but to seek to build co-operation where we can. Hugh Bayley: If we go back to the time of the cold war, we can see why it was relatively easy to explain why Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): In connection we needed collective security. with the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), does not my hon. Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): I do not Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) wish to delay my hon. Friend, but I thought it important think that it is a bit peculiar that Croatia, a former to intervene following the remarks made by my hon. Soviet bloc country, entered the European Union a few Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) to point days ago whereas Turkey, which has been a staunch ally out that one of the sub-committees of the NATO of European countries for many years and is a member Parliamentary Assembly will visit Greenland in September, of NATO, still finds considerable opposition to its which shows NATO’s interest. British Members of this membership of the EU from within the EU? House, including me, will participate in that visit. Hugh Bayley: I must say I strongly agree with my Hugh Bayley: I am glad that my hon. Friend will be hon. Friend, but I do not want to turn the NATO on that visit, discussing the matter with colleagues from debate into a debate about the future of the EU. Turkey other NATO countries. I look forward to hearing from plays and has played an important role ever since it him when he reports back. joined the alliance in helping to defend our freedoms in During the cold war, it was fairly easy to explain why Europe, and that ought to guide the views of other EU we had NATO and why we needed to work jointly with member states when decisions are made about Turkey’s allies to defend ourselves. Europe was divided by an accession to the EU. iron curtain. We in democratic states to the west wanted I mentioned the history, but only to show that things to preserve our freedom, our human rights, trade union have moved on. Despite our foreign policy differences rights, property rights, freedom of speech and freedom with Russia on certain matters, such as Syria, we co-operate to protest while the states in the east—the USSR and its on many matters. Russia provides the land bridge to fellow travellers in satellite states—did not share those convey NATO’s non-military assets to Afghanistan and values. The Soviet Union was well armed with conventional will help us remove many of our assets from Afghanistan and nuclear weapons and demonstrated that it was as we bring our troops home. prepared to use those military assets to crush the Hungarian The question that we must answer for Members of uprising in 1956, to blockade Berlin, to invade Czecho- this House who do not share our views and for the slovakia in 1968 and to try to destroy the Solidarity public is, “If the cold war is history, why isn’t NATO?” movement in Poland. It was quite clear to most of the It is not history because we still need international public why we needed military assets to protect ourselves co-operation and solidarity with our allies and shared and why we needed to co-operate with other countries and permanent structures to plan to deal with the to do so. security risks we face, to deter those risks and, when That was long ago. We still have foreign policy differences things go wrong, to manage military action. with Russia—for instance, over Syria. No single NATO state, with the possible exception of the United States, has sufficient military assets to protect Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I thank my itself from today’s risks without the help of colleagues. hon. Friend for giving way and putting NATO in its Actually, I do not think the United States should be historical context. Does he not think that with some excepted, because it needs and gains international legitimacy hindsight the 1990s, when the Warsaw pact collapsed, at the UN and elsewhere when it engages in military was a time when we should have promoted European action that is supported by its allies. 1097 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1098

Since the end of the cold war, we have needed NATO Even in 2002—more than a decade ago—we were to end conflict in the heart of Europe—in Bosnia, for stressing the link between security and development example; to respond to the threat of global terrorism, assistance; and from 2006, in reports and resolutions we which had devastating effects on the streets of New called for what is now described as the comprehensive York, London, Madrid and a number of cities in east approach: diplomacy, defence and development Africa and elsewhere; and to protect human rights and co-operation. Again as early as 2004, we identified that stop ethnic cleansing, as in Bosnia, Kosovo and Libya. much aid was used inefficiently because it was not We needed NATO to provide humanitarian assistance channelled through Afghan institutions, and now even during the 2005 floods in Pakistan and, indeed, following 50% of US aid is channelled through the World Bank’s Hurricane Katrina in the United States, when other trust fund and the Government of Afghanistan. NATO states sent humanitarian assets. We have needed Interestingly, in 2006—seven years ago—we called for NATO to counter the threat of piracy off the horn of reconciliation talks with moderate elements in the Africa: the losses suffered at the hands of pirates now insurgency. Since 2006, we have stressed the need to cost insurers and shipping companies many hundreds challenge the safe havens in Pakistan and we have been of millions of pounds less than they used to, thanks to involving Pakistani MPs in meetings of our Assembly. I NATO and EU coastal patrols. We also need to work have visited Afghanistan five or six times during the collectively with our allies to deal with new and emerging period our forces have been in the country, and I have to threats—cyber-attack, transnational crime, people say that many of the prescient ideas reflected in reports trafficking or the drugs trade. All are threats that affect of our Assembly came from British commanders, British the United Kingdom, but none is a threat to which we diplomats, DFID staff or British aid workers. can successfully respond and against which we can The Assembly is an effective forum for sharing good protect ourselves against on our own. ideas and good practice and, where we identify good What does the NATO Parliamentary Assembly bring practice adopted by one country, we try to persuade to the table? Where is our added value? After fall of the others in the alliance to support similar approaches. Berlin wall, as I said in response to my hon. Friend the Often, it is easier for legislators who do not have executive Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the Assembly responsibilities to reach conclusions on these matters sought to build bridges with democrats in the former than it is for members of a Government. We are still, Warsaw pact countries that wanted to move closer to even now, debating defence budgets, following the reports the west. Indeed, the Assembly moved faster than NATO we produced some years ago on burden sharing. As we itself or the Governments of many member states to know, Robert Gates, the former US Defence Secretary, open a dialogue with those democrats. in his outgoing statement, called on Europe to step up At the end of last week, General Nick Carter, the UK to the mark on defence spending, and it is clear to our soldier and deputy commander of the international Assembly that most countries in Europe do not spend security assistance force, said that peace and reconciliation enough on defence. Indeed, only two—Britain and talks with the Taliban should have started a decade ago, Greece—spend the 2% of GDP that NATO recommends. and he is right. There were people engaging with moderate When I put that point to our Secretary of State, as I leaders in the insurgency in the mid-2000s, and I met have a number of times, he says that, with the economic them during some of my visits to Afghanistan; but situation so fragile, now is not the right time to press there were disputes at the time about who should do Governments of other countries to increase their defence this—whether it should be the Government of Afghanistan, expenditure, but I believe it is necessary for security or perhaps the United States. I remember when two reasons, and that the way to get through the difficulty is people who had been involved in talks with elements to seek commitments that, as the economic situation within the insurgency were expelled from Afghanistan. improves and Governments receive a taxation dividend from growth, they will devote a proportion of it to Last week, lead responsibility for security passed greater defence expenditures. I do not think we have from ISAF to the Afghan national security forces in public opinion on our side for that proposition at the every part of Afghanistan. As our role changes so that moment, which is another reason we need to do more to we no longer provide the security lead in that country, explain why we have the security structures we have in we need to learn lessons from NATO’s biggest, longest NATO and why it is necessary to maintain them and and costliest military operation. Our Parliamentary finance them properly. Both the NATO Parliamentary Assembly has visited Afghanistan 11 times in the past Assembly and NATO itself need to do more to get their eight years, and when preparing for this debate I looked case into the public domain, and I congratulate the back at our reports. Secretary-General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen— In 2004, we argued that NATO, which at that time had a role in Kabul but not throughout the country, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. May should expand its presence throughout Afghanistan. In I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that he has been reports in 2004, 2005 and 2006, we called for a unified speaking for 20 minutes, and it was to be 10 to 15 minutes? command, encompassing both ISAF, the NATO mission, I am sure that he is nearing the end now. and the US-led Operation Enduring Freedom. Between 2005 and 2008, we published reports calling for better Hugh Bayley: Mr Deputy Speaker, I should not have burden sharing between NATO member states and for taken so many interventions. caveats imposed by some of the national contributions to NATO to be lifted. As early as 2004—nine years Mr Deputy Speaker: You have had some extra time. ago—we highlighted the need to accelerate the build-up and strengthen the training of Afghan national security Hugh Bayley: I simply want to say this: we have a forces; we stressed that particularly strongly from 2006 responsibility to make the case for defence spending in onward. our constituencies and through debates such as this. 1099 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1100

[Hugh Bayley] although at the moment the acting commander is French because the last US commander became chief of staff We need to stress also—this is the final point that I of the US air force—the Allied Maritime Command is shall make—the importance of maintaining the trans- not only based in the UK at Northwood, but is commanded Atlantic relationship, which underpins NATO as an by a British vice-admiral, Peter Hudson. We have an alliance. We share much with the United States and important and respected role to play in NATO. Canada in terms of our culture, history, family links And we play it to the full, with our crucial role in from not just the United Kingdom but many European ISAF, our joint leadership in Libya, our contribution to families, and trade links. The United States and Canada Mali and the Balkans, and our operations in Sierra exported more to the European Union last year— Leone and elsewhere. Some of those were not, of course, $304 billion worth of goods and services—than they NATO operations, but even when NATO itself did not did to Japan, China and Korea combined, to which they deploy, as the hon. Member for York Central said, exported $266 billion. EU exports in the opposite direction the command structure, the training, the equipment are more than $400 billion to the United States and convergence and the sheer competence of NATO were Canada and $300 billion to east Asia. fundamental to our own command structure, training, We need to stress these things that we have in common. equipment and competence. NATO is a vital resource Of course the United States should focus on security and a valuable pool from which coalitions of the willing concerns that it faces in the Pacific, but it should not can be drawn. forget the common interests it has with us in Europe, on which we need to work together. The Defence Committee has been told that the United Kingdom is still regarded by its NATO allies as a leader, and so it should be. Unfortunately, the last strategic 12.50 pm defence and security review spoke of “no strategic Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): shrinkage” while shrinking the means available. That I congratulate the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh led to a perception that there is a gap between the Bayley) on securing this debate and I have agreed with United Kingdom’s stated policy and its delivery. The all he said—with one exception, which I will come to Defence Committee recently heard from Professor Lindley- —particularly about the need for NATO. The one exception French, who told us: was that I think there is a bit of work to be done on the “The German-Netherlands Corps, which I know well, had need for the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. I was several British officers in. About a week after we had made the once a Member of what was then the North Atlantic statement in SDSR 2010 that we were going to reinvest in the Assembly for six months. Then I realised that for two alliance as a key element in our national influence policy, somebody years I had been a Defence Minister and had been in the MOD decided that they had to pull those British officers completely unaware of the existence of the North Atlantic out of the German-Netherlands Corps headquarters. The Dutch Assembly.Therefore I suggest that the NATO Parliamentary and the Germans said, ‘Right, we will pull the Dutch and German Assembly needs to do some work in order to build its officers out of the ARRC.’”— profile. that is, the allied rapid reaction corps— It is a great pleasure to see the Minister of State, “In a sense, what is happening is that we are declaring policy at Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend one level, and somebody lower down the food chain is taking a the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire) in his place, spreadsheet action at another level, so we are sending conflicting ready, willing and able to answer this debate. It is also a signals.” bit of a surprise, as some of us in our ignorance might Not only the UK but NATO itself is facing have thought that NATO was a matter for defence, but unprecedented challenges. The fundamental one, as the there we are. hon. Member for York Central said, is how to maintain My great-great-great-great-grandfather, Captain George a strong alliance without a war, whether it is a cold or a Duff of HMS Mars, who was committed to the deep, hot war. The withdrawal of combat troops from along with 28 of his crew, off the coast of Cadiz at the Afghanistan will throw this matter into even starker end of the battle of Trafalgar, and whose memorial is relief than did the events of 1989. This will be exacerbated next to Nelson’s tomb in St Paul’s cathedral, would have by the economic woes of the western world. How do been proud to find the French, the Spanish and the you spend money on defence if your people are in British working as closely together now as NATO allows financial pain, cannot see an external threat and are at us to do. Interestingly, at the battle of Trafalgar there the very best ambivalent about the use to which we have were a lot of French and Spanish sailors in the British put our armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan? fleet, just as there were quite a number of British sailors in the French and Spanish fleets. That was not a matter Mrs Moon rose— of treachery—more a matter of expediency. In those days, when a ship was taken by the enemy, its sailors were given the not very difficult choice of joining the Mr Arbuthnot: I give way to the hon. Lady, who plays enemy crew or sleeping with the fishes. I do not want to such a valuable role on the Select Committee. describe Trafalgar as the beginnings of NATO, but it could be described as an early example of exchange Mrs Moon: I thank the right hon. Gentleman and postings. our Chairman of the Defence Committee. Is not part of Allied Maritime Command is the central command the vital role of NATO in these straitened times to of all NATO maritime forces and the commander of enable key competences to be maintained by allowing MARCOM is the prime maritime adviser to the alliance. capacity sharing and allowing officers and service personnel While the Allied Land Command is held by a US to train, particularly in relation to platforms that have general, and the Allied Air Command by a US general— been cut in various countries? 1101 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1102

Mr Arbuthnot: I agree. Capacity sharing is essential That is hardly surprising, because the US still spends and there is a lot that we can do together. NATO at its more on defence than the whole of the rest of the world highest levels keeps talking about pooling and sharing, put together. but there is not much that can be pooled and shared if I have a dream, and it has tinges of nightmare about member countries are constantly cutting their defence it. I foresee that the economy of the west will gradually capabilities, so that is a real worry and it is all caused by get stronger, and that we shall therefore eventually be in the financial concerns that we have. a position to spend more on our own defence. However, The economic downturn has meant that the defence before Europe decides to do that, and to create the expenditure of most countries has declined, with the defences that the instability of the world requires, we exception of countries that are definitely not in NATO, shall have to go through a major—perhaps catastrophic— such as Russia and China, whose expenditure is increasing. incident that reminds our people that without strong Perhaps we in Europe know something about world defences we have no schools, hospitals, welfare payments stability that the rest of the world does not know, but in or economy. Then, and perhaps only then, we shall Europe, the United Kingdom is, as the hon. Member painfully learn our lesson. Let us try to do it without for York Central said, almost the only country which having to go through too much pain. meets the NATO target of 2% of gross domestic product 1.2 pm spent on defence. Greece does, but for increasingly irrelevant reasons of its own. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for North I believe that the 2% target has considerable importance East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), some of whose relatives which is not only symbolic. I am glad that the Secretary died in unique and novel ways. It is also a pleasure to of State for Defence confirmed in answer to a parliamentary follow my hon. Friend the Member for York Central question last week that the UK will continue to meet (Hugh Bayley), who has brought to the United Kingdom this 2% target until 2015-16. I believe it is very important the great honour of his election as president of the that it is met after that as well. NATO Parliamentary Assembly. It is one thing to garner In February this year, in Oslo, the Deputy Secretary- the votes of one’s constituents, but quite another to General of NATO, General Verschbow, suggested that garner the votes of 28 NATO member countries for the the 2% target might be replaced by an aspiration that no presidency of their body. single ally needs to provide more than 50% of certain Unlike the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire, critical capabilities. I am always suspicious about aspirations, I value being a member of the NATO Parliamentary but what would the consequence of this be? In my view Assembly. I think it provides an opportunity to look at it would reduce the last remaining pressure on our defence from the wider European point of view and to European NATO allies to maintain their defence spending discuss and reflect on issues in the wider world in a way at respectable levels. It would be a negative aspiration that the at times UK-centric Westminster bubble does rather than a positive one—it would say what countries not allow us to do. did not need to do rather than what they did need to do. I am pleased to take part in this debate on a subject Sadly, our European NATO allies have no difficulty in that, as the previous two speakers have said, requires agreeing what they do not need to do. greater attention. Public awareness of NATO is low and The only clear practical difference it would make I would suggest that that is influenced by the fact that would be that the United States would not need to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office does not maintain commit so many of its forces to NATO. That would, at a specific budget for NATO-related diplomacy campaigns. a stroke, weaken the alliance and result in reduced I am aware that an FCO meeting will be held in about ambition overall. It is my clear view that it would be the two weeks and I look forward to seeing whether that wrong road to go down. I think we should stick with will represent the beginning of a new way of highlighting the 2% target and that we in the United Kingdom the importance of NATO. should find innovative ways of encouraging our allies I think that NATO helps us consider the challenges to meet it. we face today and how to address them. Like the other The United States historically has provided the lion’s speakers, I start by pointing out the need for a dose of share of NATO expenditure. That country is now in the reality. The UK has rarely, if ever, gone to war on its grip of sequestration over and above the originally own. In all the major conflicts of the past, we have agreed defence spending cuts. Nevertheless, our US nearly always acted in concert with others—including interlocutors assured us that despite the rebalancing it our Commonwealth partners—and we have drawn on is currently going through, the US still attaches importance support, equipment and people from other nations. It is to NATO and, within NATO, its relationship with the a fantasy to think that the UK will ever again act United Kingdom. The US looks on its allies for niche unilaterally in deploying its armed forces. All future military capabilities and says that it needs its friends more than operations will be conducted as part of a coalition. We ever, but when the Defence Committee visited the US a no longer have the range of platforms, personnel or couple of months ago it made it clear that it expects financial resources to go it alone. We also face an other NATO nations to provide a larger share of their increasingly complex set of challenges, many of which own defence, and well it might. The Libyan operation do not respect international borders or the traditional demonstrated that the US intention of taking a back rules of engagement. We need the greater thinking power seat whenever possible shines a stark light on the poor of those 28 countries in NATO. capabilities of its European allies in NATO. Air Marshal NATO is under pressure from a number of different Harper told the Defence Committee: sources, all of which make its long-term survival very “There is no question but that this operation throws into stark important. Getting every member of NATO to make an relief the capability gaps that exist between the non-US members equal contribution will never be easy—it will probably of NATO and the United States.” never even be possible—and debates on burden-sharing 1103 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1104

[Mrs Madeleine Moon] “The future of politics will be decided in Asia, not Afghanistan or Iraq, and the United States will be right at the center of the are not new, but cuts made to defence budgets across action.” the European partnership, coupled with the budgetary President Obama, in a speech to the Australian Parliament, pressures in the United States, pose a real threat. The provided reassurance that the US defence cuts would dose of reality that everyone in NATO needs to take is not impact negatively on its commitment to the Asia-Pacific that we can no longer rely on a 70% contribution from region: the US to our defence. “As we end today’s wars, I have directed my national security Leon Panetta pointed out that the example of burden- team to make our presence and missions in the Asia-Pacific a top priority. As a result, reductions in US defence spending will sharing in Libya made it clear that the current level of not—I repeat, will not—come at the expense of the Asia-Pacific.” US commitment to NATO would not continue. Robert Gates was more forthright: They will, however, come at the expense of Europe. By 2020, 60% of US naval assets will be in the Asia-Pacific “If current trends in the decline of European defence capabilities region. are not halted and reversed, future US political leaders—those for whom the Cold War was not the formative experience that it The US is responding to reality and we must do the was for me—may not consider the return on America’s investment same. The recent “Balance of Trade” study concluded in Nato worth the cost.” that defence budgets in Asia will have increased by 35% Those words should hang above the desk of every to £325 billion by 2021, eventually overtaking the US. Secretary of State for Defence in NATO. China has increased its defence spending by 7.8%. Russia has increased its defence spending by 16%. The Most recently, General Odierno, a senior American UK will not launch a military operation alone again. commander, said: The change of focus in the US puts pressure on NATO, “As the British Army continues to reduce in size we’ve had making it essential that we take a central role in the several conversations about keeping them integrated in what we’re NATO Parliamentary Assembly and in the forum of trying to do…In a lot of ways they’re depending on us, especially in our ground capabilities into the future.” NATO. Finally, at NATO’s 2012 Chicago summit, Dr Andrew New threats emerge all the time and it seems that old Dorman said: threats are reappearing. Russia is reasserting itself. China is developing its armed forces and its capability at great “There is a very real danger that as individual nations make speed. The collapse of Syria has implications for the cuts to their armed forces they will increasingly assume that some capabilities will be provided by others without necessarily wider region. There are threats to our cyber-security. communicating this assumption. Such a policy of risk-sharing The growing militarisation of south-east Asia, with the can only really work if there is some degree of central management potential for disputes in the South China sea, is underlined of the attendant risks to ensure that capability gaps do not appear by the clamour to augment submarine fleets across the across the alliance.” region. Most countries, including China, Malaysia, Vietnam He noted in the same breath that the UK Government’s and Indonesia, have submarines and are looking to decision to cut maritime control capability would be expand their numbers. Thailand is seeking to procure reasonable if other NAO members were able to cover its first submarines. the gap. Meanwhile, the Asia-Pacific highway to Europe is A quick survey, however, shows that we failed to take opening up. The high north will make it possible for that into consideration. Norway has one maritime patrol Russia, China, Japan and the south Pacific nations to aircraft, while Belgium and Holland have none. During reach our back door much faster, and we will not have a recent NATO Parliamentary Assembly visit to the the ability to monitor it and see that they are coming. Netherlands, I asked its chief of defence whether he The high north has 22% of the world’s undiscovered oil. regretted cutting their maritime patrol capability and With the opening up of those sea routes, we will have a selling it off, and he replied that he regretted it deeply. growing area of vulnerability. That is heightened—I am Ireland has two long-range MPAs, primarily to protect sorry to keep going on about it—by our lack of maritime fishing. We are all, therefore, reliant on the French fleet patrol capability. Those issues can be dealt with only if of about 24 aircraft. We have little or nothing to protect we work together as NATO. our vital sea lanes. Pooling and sharing works only if there actually is something to pool and share. Jeremy Corbyn: I am interested in what my hon. Friend is saying about the high north and the Arctic. On defence, it is constantly said that strategic thinking Does she not think that it would be better if there were is not being done, that it has been left wanting in the serious negotiations about a nuclear weapons-free Arctic, race to cut budgets and that there is a real danger that which would have to include Russia, Canada, the USA the one forum we have to facilitate joint operations is and all the European countries, as a way of bringing being undermined by our failure to realise its worth. I about some peace, rather than accelerating our expenditure? do not think that we can rely on the much-anticipated peace dividend after our withdrawal from Afghanistan. Mrs Moon: My hon. Friend hopes against reality. It will cost significant sums to get troops and equipment Norway has taken 40 years patiently and persistently to home. negotiate a treaty with Russia on joint responsibilities As European members of NATO wake up to the in the Arctic circle. I think that it would take slightly budgetary pressures in the US, we also have to face longer than 40 years to get all countries across the globe the fact that the US is pivoting towards Asia. Ministers to agree to nuclear non-proliferation. have made it clear that they see that as presenting no threat to the US’s commitment to NATO, but it does Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): pose such a threat. Hillary Clinton noted in the Foreign The hon. Lady is making an extremely interesting and Policy journal: well-informed speech. Should she not also say in response 1105 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1106 to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) My first real awareness of NATO came when I was that if there is an aggressor in the high north, it is interviewed to join the Royal Air Force in the 1980s. I Russia, which is aggressively arming and renewing its was asked how many countries were in NATO and who vast nuclear weapons stockpile in an attempt to dominate was the Secretary-General. Of course, all Members will the high north? The idea that we should lie down know that there were 16 member countries at that time meekly and let it do that unchallenged suggests that the and that the noble Lord Carrington was Secretary-General. hon. Gentleman starts from a rather naive standpoint. NATO has now grown to 28 member nations, with Russia’s fuelling of the conflict in Syria and the way in former Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen which it just walked into Georgia show how prone it is as Secretary-General. Like previous speakers, I now to reasonable negotiation. serve on the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, which brings together parliamentarians from the Atlantic alliance Mrs Moon: I do not want to be as personal as that in and contains 257 delegates from the 28 nations. I serve response to my colleague. However, I agree with the on one of the five committees, the defence and security hon. Gentleman that the opening up of the high north committee. I am proud that a UK member, the hon. makes it imperative that we maintain a continuous Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), is the current at-sea deterrent. Perhaps Russia is rearming, but we president of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly and is must also be aware that China is moving in our direction. well into the first year of his two-year term. Congratulations, It has sent through an ice-enabled ship on at least two el Presidente. occasions recently and is agreeing mineral trading rights with Iceland, which will facilitate regular voyages into NATO’s essential core tasks and principles are summed our backyard. We need to be aware of that. I am not up in the strategic concept, and I will run through them. necessarily saying that it poses a threat, but we must not The cornerstone of the alliance, of course, is collective ignore it and must prepare for any risk that comes our defence. NATO members will always assist each other way as a result. against attack in accordance with article 5 of the Washington treaty. That commitment remains firm and I want to comment briefly on the NATO training binding. mission in Afghanistan, which has been essential in building post-conflict capability. Capabilities of different levels are available across the NATO alliance. It is Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): May I ask my hon. important that we recognise that the end of the cold Friend’s opinion of whether French Guiana, in south war brought back allies from the eastern European bloc America, might be defended under that collective security that have expertise in building capacity and creating umbrella if it were attacked by Brazil? democratic capabilities that we should utilise more. I am aware that a number of Members want to speak, Jason McCartney: My hon. and gallant Friend makes but I want to comment briefly on the Government-owned a good point. There are a number of anomalies, such as contractor-operated model. I recently asked a Minister the situation of the dependency of the Falklands Islands what capacity the GoCo would have to facilitate bilateral and the tensions between Greece and Turkey, which of and trilateral procurement with our NATO allies. The course are both member nations, in Cyprus. There are response was a bit pathetic, because I was told that certain cases, of which he gave a prime example, in nothing would change. which article 5 perhaps has a little leeway. The NATO Parliamentary Assembly gives us the Crisis management is another core task of NATO, opportunity to test such ideas with our allies face to and it has a unique and robust set of political and face. We can hear their assessment of what we are doing military capabilities to address the full spectrum of and their understanding of why we are doing it. I look crises before, during and after conflicts. Of course, my forward next week to asking the French how they would hon. and gallant Friend was involved in one such conflict feel about negotiating the joint procurement of equipment in Bosnia. with an agency that could potentially be owned by a third power on our behalf. Next week, along with some Another task is co-operative security. The alliance of my NATO Parliamentary Assembly colleagues, I will engages actively to enhance international security, through travel to the US and attend briefings at the Department partnerships and by contributing actively to arms control, for Defence, the State Department and Capitol Hill. I non-proliferation and disarmament. Other recently added will raise all the issues that I have raised today at those facets of NATO’s work are cyber-security, which has meetings. been much in the news in the past fortnight, energy security and the threat posed by climate change. In conclusion, NATO provides the opportunity to share our understanding of the world, its problems, its NATO has been at the heart, and at the head, of risks and conflicts, and to build a shared understanding command and control for current and recent western and response. On a personal level, having the opportunity military interventions and operations. In many ways, it to meet people and share our thoughts and views on now delivers the military aspects of the United Nations’ defence issues is invaluable. Long may it continue. Long work. I will highlight three examples. First, as we have may NATO provide Europe with the peace and security heard, there is the international security assistance force, that it is dedicated to defending jointly among its the NATO-led security mission in Afghanistan that the 28 members, and which it has succeeded in providing UN Security Council established in December 2001 for a long time. under resolution 1386. Secondly, there was Operation Unified Protector, the NATO operation enforcing UN 1.19 pm Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973, concerning Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I, too, thank the Libyan civil war. Those resolutions imposed sanctions the Backbench Business Committee for granting time on key members of the Gaddafi Government and for a debate on NATO in the main Chamber. authorised NATO to implement an arms embargo and 1107 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1108

[Jason McCartney] move between the two different organisations, largely because of the different rules of engagement. They said a no-fly zone and to use all necessary means, short of that the European rules of engagement gave greater foreign occupation, to protect Libyan civilians and civilian- flexibility. We should bear that in mind. populated areas. Jason McCartney: And of course, as the hon. Lady Thirdly, there is Operation Ocean Shield, which was will remember, another interesting aspect was the Japanese referred to earlier. It is NATO’s contribution to the air base, which I think is the only place in the world anti-piracy campaign off the coast of the horn of where Japanese forces are operating militarily outside Africa, following the earlier Operation Allied Protector. their own sovereign area. Naval operations began early in 2009, having been approved by the North Atlantic Council, and primarily Expansion is another area of concern. Ever more involve warships from the UK and the United States, former Warsaw pact countries are joining. Poland, Romania, although vessels from many other nations are also included. Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have already done so, and many more are waiting to join and are That brings me to some of the challenges facing already acting as observers. It is sometimes asked whether NATO, a big one of which is duplication. The operation even Russia will join NATO at some point. It already against Somali piracy is a good example. I have been has observer status at the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, with the NATO Parliamentary Assembly to Djibouti, and I have chatted to the leader of the Russian Communist which is strategically placed on the horn of Africa, and party in the Duma while on a NATO briefing. Having there are clear signs of overlap and mission repeat. We been a serviceman in the late 1980s and ’90s, I found have not only the NATO-led mission but an EU-led that very strange indeed. operation called Operation Atalanta, also known as European Union Naval Force Somalia. There is also What would happen if Scotland were to go independent? an independent French air base, a US army camp and How long would it have to wait in the long queue to join a Japanese air base. Time and time again, I ask the NATO? By the way, our NATO assets, including our commanding officers how much liaison there is between Trident submarines, which I have visited on the Clyde, the different operations, and I have never got a satisfactory would have to be relocated. answer. My final area of concern is budgets, to which many Members have referred. There is an increasing balance Mike Gapes: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that of capabilities within NATO. Eighteen member nations at Northwood, in this country, there is close co-operation are spending less on defence from their current budgets between the NATO and EU activities, and there is also than they were four years ago, and as others have said, UN discussion about anti-piracy activity. I do not think only three allies have spent the target of 2% of more of we should be quite as pessimistic as he implies. GDP on defence in the past couple of years—the United Kingdom, the United States and Greece. We have already heard about the situation in Greece because of its GDP. Jason McCartney: I guess that the hon. Gentleman is Would an independent Scotland be able to commit a bit more pro-EU than I am. That is probably what 2% of its GDP to defence spending? There is pressure is behind his comments. I will give another example of on the United States, which now provides 77% of allied what duplication does. It can confuse command and defence spending within NATO. Just a decade ago, it control, and further evidence of that is the EU force was 63%. The United States’ commitment to European headquarters being set up in Belgium, in a similar defence as it shifts its focus to Asia is one of the biggest location to NATO’s headquarters on the outskirts of uncertainties. Brussels. That is more costly duplication of command and control. NATO is at the heart of western defence and overseas operations. It is changing and adapting, and it has Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman many challenges, but we on the NATO Parliamentary should be celebrating the success of the anti-piracy Assembly will continue to scrutinise the Atlantic alliance, operation off the coast of Somalia. I will mention support it, celebrate its achievements and remember unnecessary duplication in my speech, but the activities what is was set up for—keeping the peace in Europe. that he has mentioned are complementary, as are those of the Chinese and a number of other Asian countries. 1.29 pm They are all operating together successfully to achieve a Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I thank my common goal. It is a success, not a problem as he is hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) trying to make out. for introducing the debate and describing the work of the Assembly, and for dipping into the history of NATO. Jason McCartney: I disagree with the right hon. That is a good starting point. Gentleman. He will be well aware how confusing it can At the end of the second world war there was a be to answer to two leaders—for example, the leader of triumph and a tragedy. The triumph was the end of the one’s party and a union. As a serviceman myself, I war, the defeat of Nazism, the foundation of the United believe it is important to have a clear command and Nations and the universal declaration of human rights control structure and for people to know whom they and the UN charter. The tragedy was the descent into answer to. the cold war, the foundation of the Warsaw pact and NATO, and the decades-long nuclear arms race with Mrs Moon: The hon. Gentleman will remember that costs borne by both sides and the economic problems I was also a member of the delegation to Djibouti. I that ensued as a result. Then there was the election of specifically remember the response that we received to Gorbachev as President of the USSR, and his proposals our questions, which was that people found it helpful to for disarmament. The Reykjavik summit was unfortunately 1109 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1110 neutralised by Reagan’s proposals, and Gorbachev’s United States or approved suppliers that produce NATO- proposals for a common European home and promotion issue equipment. We must think far more seriously of European security and co-operation were not responded about why we are in NATO and what it is achieving. to effectively by the USA or NATO. Gorbachev eventually Let us consider Afghanistan from 2001 onwards. Yes, went and the Warsaw pact collapsed. Surely the 1990s 9/11 was a dreadful event and an act of murder against were a time for reassessment and looking at an alternative. civilians, but was it an appropriate response to invade Why did NATO continue at that point when its cold Afghanistan? Twelve years later, 400 British soldiers, a war raison d’être had gone? larger number of American soldiers, and a very much The Library briefing contains a helpful statement by larger number of Afghan civilians, and others, are dead. J. L. Granatstein, a distinguished research fellow from Drone aircraft are operating in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute. In and there is a real threat to the civil liberties of everyone the National Post on 5 March 2013 he wrote: in the world from Guantanamo Bay, extraordinary “Perhaps it might have been better if NATO had wound itself rendition and anti-terror legislation. That has not made up at the end of the Cold War. The alliance instead sought for a the world a safer or more secure place. new role, a new strategic purpose, and it found it outside the boundaries of the alliance.” Mike Gapes: Does my hon. Friend accept that in He goes on to mention Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, 2001, an estimated 10,000 terrorists came out of training and later the Libyan adventures of NATO. camps in Afghanistan from areas that the state had I think we should seriously consider the whole purpose effectively handed over for al-Qaeda to operate in? Was of NATO. It was founded as part of the cold war and there not a need to protect communities around the had a specific area of responsibility—the north Atlantic. world by removing those terrorist bases from Afghanistan? It successively increased its operations out of area, and with the Lisbon treaty it does two things. First, it vastly Jeremy Corbyn: I question the figure of 10,000 and I expands its area of operation to include Afghanistan, would take my Friend back a little further. In 1979, which by no stretch of the imagination can be anything Soviet support for the then Afghan Government provoked to do with the north Atlantic, any more than can the a massive US response and arming of the mujaheddin seas off Somalia or North Korea, South Korea and in Afghanistan. Massive amounts of US money went south Asia. into Afghanistan from 1979 onwards and—hey presto!—the Taliban were formed with US weapons. Al-Qaeda was Mr Spellar: Does my hon. Friend accept that in a founded by US trainers. What goes around comes around more communicated and linked-up world, threats to and we should think more carefully about instant our security from other parts of the world can have a information and instant sending of vast amounts of significant impact on our security at home? Piracy off weapons to opposition groups. The same may happen if the coast of Somalia is a real threat to trade lanes we decide to send arms to one group in Syria. Where between western Europe and east Asia. Those are massive will those arms end up? A little bit of historical analysis trade lanes for the continuing prosperity of the world. might be helpful. Is that a threat to our security, and should we respond to it? Mrs Moon: My hon. Friend is right to say that what comes around could go around. Does he also accept Jeremy Corbyn: Of course piracy off the coast of that some of the conflict in Afghanistan perhaps also Somalia is not a good thing. Instability in Somalia is led to the collapse of the Soviet Union, bringing freedom very bad, but surely one solves that problem by political and democracy to swathes of people across Europe? support for changes in Somalia—to some extent that is Some of those countries are now members of NATO, happening and considerable changes are taking place. I having recognised the importance of joint defence in sometimes get the feeling that NATO spent the 1990s securing independence and democracy. and early 2000s looking for something to do, and that it was more than pleased to get involved in Afghanistan Jeremy Corbyn: Of course the Soviet intervention in and present itself as the armed wing of the United Afghanistan was a mistake; it was just as disastrous as Nations. It may be that the UN should have its own previous British interventions and the current NATO force, and that is a matter for consideration and debate. intervention in Afghanistan have been. It did irreparable However, when NATO calls itself the arm of the UN, damage to the leadership of the Soviet Union through what does that say to countries that are not in or aligned its cost and loss of life. It was a disaster and a contributory to NATO, or indeed are deeply suspicious of NATO factor—not the only one—to the break-up of the Soviet and its activities? Members who talk about NATO as Union. Is NATO the answer to the problem? Should we being the effective arm of the UN should think carefully not have a more assertive policy of peace and disarmament about the implications of what they are saying. around the world, rather than the NATO policy of The costs of NATO membership are considerable— rearmament above what any country can realistically probably far greater than those of membership of the afford, which in turn encourages more rearmament? European Union, which seems to excite massive debate I was alarmed by the whole discussion about the on the Government Benches. NATO requires 2% of our Arctic and the so-called threat from the north. A whole gross national product to be spent on defence, and new scenario seems to be being built up, namely that Members complain that other countries do not meet China will somehow occupy the Arctic and invade us those demands. Presumably, NATO membership requires from the Arctic ocean, and therefore we must develop a a level of expenditure that many countries simply cannot new missile shield—as we already have aimed against afford, yet they are required to make that expenditure Russia—to protect ourselves. The USA is moving more and, for the most part, to buy those arms from the into the Asia-Pacific region. Should we be thinking 1111 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1112

[Jeremy Corbyn] My plea is simply this. We live in a world where a quarter of the world’s population are hungry, if not more about regional peace and security measures? That starving. We live in a world where the environmental has been achieved to a large extent in Africa, Latin consequences of what we are doing are catastrophic for America, and parts of central Asia. Should that not be future generations. Yet we are spending a vast amount our direction of travel, rather than one that involves of money on armaments, which, in turn, encourages large levels of armaments? others to spend vast amounts of money on armaments. The other point I want to raise—this will not be We have a growing arms race between NATO and popular with many, if any, Members in the Chamber Russia, despite the apparently cosy chats between members today—concerns NATO’s preference for being the nuclear of the Russian Communist party and delegates to the umbrella, and the holding and potential use of nuclear NATO Assembly. I absolutely welcome those and wish weapons. These are the ultimate weapons of mass they could be videoed and portrayed to the whole destruction. There is no “limited use”of nuclear weapons. world. The same applies to China. There is no limited availability of them. You either use If we are to live in a world of peace in the future, it them or you do not. If you do, it brings about the death will not be achieved by spending more and more on of very large numbers of people, a nuclear winter and weapons. It will be achieved by spending less on weapons the destruction of the lives of millions of people. Those and more on dealing with the problems of human who argue that NATO should hold nuclear weapons misery and human insecurity. I hope that instead of must in reality be saying that they would be prepared to developing a nuclear shield or the missile shield along use them, with all the consequences that that would the eastern flank of NATO, we will instead move towards bring about. much better relations with all the power blocs as a way of bringing about a more peaceful world. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I am grateful to the I do not believe in the continuation of defence alliances hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a lot of time. On this that have within them a built-in accelerator of cost and issue, however, I disagree. Does he agree that nuclear of danger, as well as massive pressures from the arms weapons cannot be uninvented and that it is in the and other industries to sell more of their goods, when interests of global security that the democracies of the the needs of the world are health, education, food and world join together in a common nuclear defence rather housing. Those are the issues that we should prioritise, than unilateral nuclear disarmament, which would only not weapons of mass destruction. I realise that this is a hand greater power to countries and forces in the world minority position in the Chamber today but I am not that do not wish to see democracy prosper? actually alone among the wider public in holding those views. Jeremy Corbyn: Of course the technology of nuclear weapons cannot be uninvented; indeed, Einstein in his 1.44 pm later years said that if he had his time again, he would have been a clockmaker rather than making the discovery Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Of he did. He did not make it with the intention of starting course the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy nuclear war, but that was a danger that came from it. Corbyn) has outlined a minority perspective, but that Obviously nuclear weapons cannot be uninvented, but shows the value of this Chamber in allowing those it is possible to give them up. South Africa did so, as did perspectives to be aired. Argentina, Brazil, Ukraine and Kazakhstan. There are I disagreed fundamentally with the hon. Gentleman nuclear weapons-free zones around the world. The prize on a number of points. First, he said that NATO was surely would be a nuclear weapons-free middle east, looking for a role in the early 1990s and was therefore which would require the nuclear non-proliferation treaty keen to latch on to Bosnia and Kosovo, whereas at the conference that was envisaged to include Iran and Israel time NATO commanders were very reluctant to get to actually be held rather than endlessly procrastinated involved in those conflicts. It was the international on. It will not be easy; of course not. But if we do not community, through institutions that I am sure the hon. start somewhere, more people will get off the nuclear Gentleman supports, that was looking for a mechanism non-proliferation treaty trail and go elsewhere. Egypt to deliver its collective will on the ground. The only has already left the NPT because of inaction by the mechanism available to the international community at nuclear powers over the middle east nuclear-free zone. the time was NATO. Should not we be doing the same in terms of an Arctic nuclear weapons-free zone as a step towards a nuclear-free Bob Stewart: May I just confirm what my hon. Friend world? Everybody says they want a nuclear-free world, is saying? At the time, I was the chief of policy at but at the same time are rearming, rather than going Supreme Allied Commander Europe’s headquarters. It forward on it. was my job to try to avoid getting involved in Bosnia We are spending £34 billion a year of our money on and places like it, but I was given political instructions defence and we are bound to spend at least 2 per cent. of that we had to start thinking about it. What my hon. GDP as long as we remain members of NATO, as all Friend says is absolutely accurate; the hon. Member for other countries must do. Those countries that are in the Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) is wrong. EU and NATO obviously accept both treaties. Those that are in the EU but not in NATO have a problem Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and because of the close relationship between the EU and I am pleased that he has been more successful in some NATO. One can hardly say that the traditional neutral of his more recent endeavours than he was in getting foreign policies of, for example, Sweden and Ireland NATO to stay out of the Balkans. It was the international can be maintained while the EU maintains this close community looking for a vehicle to deliver its will on relationship. the ground that led to the NATO involvement in south-east 1113 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1114

Europe, which shows the benefits of an alliance that to the Pacific. That poses fundamental questions for brings together collective action in support of common NATO, an organisation that remains embedded in the values. regional geopolitics of Europe and the Atlantic. I do not entirely share the view of the hon. Member The US remains by far the largest contributor of for Islington North on Afghanistan. Hundreds of thousands money and matériel for NATO. In 2011, the US spent of people are now going to school there in a way that 4.8% of its GDP on defence. Germany, Italy and France they did not before. There is now a freedom for women failed to contribute even 2% of their respective GDP. that has not been felt recently. There is also the beginning Like many hon. Members, I think it is deeply unfair of self-determination. NATO has helped to bring an that our European NATO allies expect the US and the end to a religious dictatorship there and my hope is UK to bankroll European defence. It is right to expect that, as the negotiations go forward, it will continue to our allies in NATO to contribute fairly to the upkeep of protect the newly won rights for people there. NATO forces, and I call on Ministers not to be shy in I would like to pay tribute to the hon. Member for their discourse with our European counterparts. Calling York Central (Hugh Bayley) and to my hon. Friend the for member states to contribute fairly is one part of Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) for securing ensuring that the organisation remains effective. For this very important debate. My hon. Friend talked NATO to be effective, we do not just need a willingness about the danger of unnecessary duplication—we may to deploy military force when necessary, but for our see that in some of the remarks today—but that in itself European allies to be willing to fund that resource, so pays tribute to the work of the Parliamentary Assembly we have the ability to deploy when the time is right. and to its British delegation, which works on a cross-party On procurement, we can and should do things differently. basis, putting the British national security interest first. There are many ways to work more closely with our The delegation is able to come back to this House and European allies. We must ensure that the sum total of a to the country and share a fairly coherent and joined-up country’s specific specialised contribution exceeds its criticism of NATO where there are criticisms to be individual parts. By procuring equipment and weapon made. We also play a key role in advocating the benefits systems together, we can create the flexibility essential of the alliance for everybody. to meeting the array of challenges in the 21st century. We all recognise that the world has changed. NATO For example, it is wasteful to buy planes that cannot was born into a Europe that was divided, and it formed land on another country’s aircraft carriers, to have to the bedrock of our security for 60 years. The world was supply different types of bullets for different countries, split between two diametrically opposed systems of or to have radio systems that cannot be integrated or government that were forged out of the second world talk to each other. We must ensure that our armed war, the largest conflict in history. For much of its forces can operate as effectively as possible with troops existence, NATO has been preoccupied, rightly, with from other countries. That underscores the point made conflicts between states, but as hon. Members on both by the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) about sides have said, that has now shifted. It is no longer how unlikely it is for this country to go to war by itself. simply about interstate warfare. In Bosnia and in Kosovo, The more likely scenario is that we will always be acting NATO has involved itself with civilians as well as states as part of a coalition, so it is important to make that and this new role has been cemented in Afghanistan and, coalition effective—very basic stuff that NATO continues more recently, under the right to protect mandate delivered to get wrong. by the UN in Libya. That latter conflict displayed Let us be clear: Britain should always be able to a strong example of how NATO, in accordance with retain control over the deployment of its forces. We international will and international agreement, was able must do so wisely and with appreciation of the consequences to deliver effective military capabilities to prevent, I of engaging our men and women in armed conflict. believe, the escalation of that conflict and to hasten the However, the EU can play a role in developing institutions end of hostilities. and structures that allow humanitarian access and Humanitarian-led intervention is only one part of peacekeeping missions in partnership with NATO where the changing landscape. There has been a paradigm possible. As I and other hon. Members have said, the shift towards focusing on international terrorism and gaze of the United States is now firmly on the Pacific. piracy, as we have heard, and UK forces are highly Having EU structures, where appropriate and necessary, active alongside NATO and EU allies in these regards. to help plug the gaps left by the Americans, who are Cyber-security is also a new frontier for NATO. The now more concerned with Beijing than Berlin, will be in unrelenting computerisation of our society and our the UK’s national interest. Deeper EU defence co-operation reliance on the internet bring many opportunities makes economic sense for the same reasons that it does for NATO Governments and citizens, but it brings within NATO. We are stronger together, and if we are significant dangers too. The scale of such infrastructure smart, it will not be an additional burden to the taxpayer. is something that no state could have anticipated in 1949. It requires a completely different approach that, Mr Jenkin: Will my hon. Friend explain why it is through common endeavour, is better delivered within necessary for the EU to duplicate what European nations the alliance. can already do on a military and politically co-operative The power structures of the world have shifted far basis through NATO? Does he agree that it is essential more rapidly than many predicted. We now live in a not to waste resources by duplicating NATO structures world where China is the world’s second largest economy, that already exist? and it looks set to overtake the United States this century. This, coupled with the relative demise of the Stephen Gilbert: I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. Russian economy and the break-up of the Soviet Union, It is clear that we need to reduce duplication both has seen the attention of the United States shift firmly within the EU and between the EU and NATO. There 1115 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1116

[Stephen Gilbert] Hugh Bayley rose— will, however, be certain fundamental operational ways Mike Gapes: I give way to the president of the NATO in which a resource on a European basis can best plug a Parliamentary Assembly. gap that NATO does not move into. I suggest that these things are best looked at on a case-by-case basis. Hugh Bayley: My hon. Friend makes an important point about the new military co-operation between Mr Jenkin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Britain and the Irish Republic. When I was in Mali, just a week or two before him, I saw a training unit led by a Stephen Gilbert: No, I will not. British major and, from the Irish Republic, an Irish It is my view, and that of the Liberal Democrats, that captain. However, my hon. Friend made a slip of the NATO should remain the bedrock of our international tongue: he referred to the Royal Irish Regiment, but of defence obligations. It should be properly and fairly course those forces were from the Republic of Ireland. funded, but it must adapt for the 21st century. Mike Gapes: I am grateful for that intervention. Let me turn to some of the other issues that have 1.55 pm been raised. An important point was made about the Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure internet and cyber-warfare. NATO has a facility in to follow the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay Estonia—I have visited it with the Select Committee on (Stephen Gilbert), who, like me, is a member of the Foreign Affairs and I know that the NATO Parliamentary NATO Parliamentary Assembly. I want to pick up on a Assembly has also visited it—to bring together best reference he made—it has come up in other contributions practice for dealing with cyber-warfare. As we have seen too—to Kosovo. from the media headlines in the last few days, we will During the Whit recess, I went with a NATO face significant challenges, not just from states but, I Parliamentary Assembly delegation to Serbia and Kosovo. suspect, over the coming decades from private interests We went by road from Belgrade through north Mitrovica and private companies spying and stealing data and and south Mitrovica down to Pristina. We visited a commercially sensitive material. We also know of reports—I Serbian orthodox monastery in Kosovo, which is now am not in a position to say whether they are true—that in an area overwhelmingly populated by Kosovo Albanians, the Iranian nuclear weapons programme was seriously rather than Kosovo Serbs. One interesting development set back because of the activities of some countries and is that in Belgrade, Mitrovica and Pristina everybody the so-called Stuxnet, and there are other areas where unanimously praised the work of KFOR, the NATO-led these matters are also of great importance. force doing the vital job of providing stability and International security is enhanced by co-operation, protection to the minority Serbian communities and not just in hardware and personnel but in intelligence religious places in Kosovo, as well as acting to prevent and security sharing. We need to be honest: these are conflict in north Mitrovica. not issues that can be dealt with by simplistic headlines KFOR divided Kosovo into five areas of operations, in The Guardian or any other newspaper. They have to and its commanding officer is German. The most difficult be looked at seriously. There needs to be international area covers north Mitrovica, in which approximately co-operation to deal with threats to our security, which 80,000 Serbs live. Many do not accept that they live in might come not from terrorist bombs but from somebody Kosovo—they still identify with Belgrade. Significantly, sabotaging a banking system or undermining the supply the KFOR commander for this area does not come of electricity or water to our major cities by making a from a NATO country—he is from the neutral country minor change to a software programme, albeit one with of Switzerland. Through its structure, infrastructure potentially disastrous consequences. We need to look and continuity, NATO enables partner countries and at those issues. I believe that NATO has a role in that others to participate and play important roles in NATO respect. structures. My final point relates to the United States, which has There is a similar situation in Afghanistan, with an already been referred to several times. We have heard alliance of 28 countries—or 43 countries, I am not sure about the so-called pivot towards Asia, President Obama’s what the actual figure is now—that participate in strategy of leading from behind and all the other concerns international operations. NATO has played an essential that we have as Europeans. The NATO Parliamentary part in providing the framework for that to happen. Assembly provides one of the few forums for members Similarly, EU co-operation is happening in different of the US House of Representatives and the Canadian places. Wearing my Foreign Affairs Committee hat, I Parliament to come to meetings at which we can have was in Mali last month. I was pleased to meet and talk regular discussions with them. Sadly, given the nature to the EU’s training mission, led by French officers who of the insane political system in the United States and are doing a fantastic job, which includes 46 British two-year elections to the House of Representatives, it is forces personnel. Interestingly, for the first time British difficult for its members to get abroad very often, officers will be in charge of Irish soldiers, from the because they have to spend all their time raising election Royal Irish Regiment. The two flags will be working campaign money or fighting re-elections, normally in together for the first time since the 1930s. That is a their primaries. symbol of international co-operation. That work is The NATO Parliamentary Assembly is important, done under an EU initiative, so that Ireland, Sweden because it means that there is a group of Americans and other EU countries that are not in NATO can from the Republicans and the Democrats who have had nevertheless contribute and work with NATO countries. contact with and learnt about European politics. In the Often, the assets and resources of NATO are used in same way, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly provides that way to enhance our European defence and security. a way for people from European countries to understand 1117 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1118 the politics of other countries better. The current President have said that they are now ready to supply lethal of Turkey, Abdullah Gul, was a member of the NATO military equipment to Syria. I want to bring before the Parliamentary Assembly for many years. I am sure that House what I believe is a critically important case study that was important, given that he comes from the AK before those countries, and possibly other NATO countries, party, which comes out of an Islamist tradition. He has decide in specific detail whether they will supply military clearly learnt a great deal and built confidence and equipment to Syria and, if so, what types. understanding with other European parliamentarians Over the last few days, I have been analysing what and those from across the Atlantic. was supplied to Gaddafi’s Libya in the five years prior The forum that is provided, the specialist committees to the outbreak of the Arab spring. The UK was one of and the reports that the NATO Parliamentary Assembly the NATO suppliers, and was far from the only one. publishes provide members of Parliaments in different Non-NATO countries were supplying arms as well, and countries with vital information that they would not contributing to the substantial Libya-Gaddafi arms always get from their own Ministries of Defence—I am stockpiles. That five-year period ran from the beginning glad that the Minister is in his place to hear this. In the of 2006 until the end of 2010, which was of course the more than 10 years that I have been attending meetings eve of the Arab spring. of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, I have found that the access we get to high-level meetings and the I shall give the House a brief snapshot of the arms export information we get in those meetings is often far superior licences that were approved by the previous Government to the level of information I used to get as a member of here. They covered items including components for the Select Committee on Defence or the Foreign Affairs assault rifles, armoured personnel carriers, command Committee. That is not something to be proud of. and control vehicles, military utility vehicles, military communications equipment, cryptographic equipment, Jeremy Corbyn: Can my hon. Friend say—I am genuinely electronic warfare equipment, artillery computers, and interested in this—what degree of influence over NATO components for surface-to-air missile launching equipment. policy and strategy the Parliamentary Assembly has? The decision to issue an export licence for that last item— components for surface-to-air missile launching Mike Gapes: Without straying too far from what I equipment—was made here in London, in blissful but was going to say, I can say that the NATO Parliamentary understandable ignorance of the fact that within a few Assembly produces reports which are published online months NATO aircraft, including those from this country, and are published in draft form before final versions are would be overflying Libya to establish the no-fly zone. produced. Every year the NATO Secretary-General Then came the change of Government in May 2010. produces a response to the points made. It is a bit like In the subsequent seven months leading up to the the relationship between Select Committees and the outbreak of the Arab spring in 2011, the present coalition Government. Recommendations are made, reports Government continued the policy of the previous are published and then the NATO bureaucracy—the Government. Indeed, I believe that they somewhat enlarged Secretary-General, on behalf of NATO as an institution— it. The export licences that were granted to Libya’s responds to the assembly’s recommendations. The Gaddafi regime covered items including small arms Secretary-General and other senior NATO figures come ammunition, semi-automatic pistols, sniper rifles, assault before our meetings. We hold them to account, whether rifles, machine guns, military communications equipment, at the February session in Brussels or the autumn cryptographic equipment, military cargo vehicles and, meeting, which rotates among different countries. once again, components for surface-to-air missile launching There is therefore a level of connection and accountability, equipment. although NATO is not a democratic parliamentary I raise this case study because the key issue for NATO structure. It works through a consensus arrangement in relation to supplying arms to Syria is to determine between the different member Governments. In a sense, what has happened to the Libya-Gaddafi arms stockpile. the NATO Parliamentary Assembly is far less democratic To help us to answer that question, we are indebted to than other bodies—there is no qualifying majority voting, one key public source: the report presented to the like in the European Union—while the European United Nations Security Council by the panel of experts Parliament has a lot more powers. Nevertheless, the charged with reporting to the Security Council on the work we do as parliamentarians, representing our national implementation of Security Council resolution 1973. I Parliaments but also understanding and working in believe that that report should be made compulsory co-operation with others, is vital. Under my hon. Friend reading for all Ministers considering whether NATO the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), the president countries should supply weapons to Syria and, if so, of the assembly, I believe we will have a much higher what weapons they should be. profile in future. I wish to place before the House a few key sentences from that recently published report. The panel of experts 2.7 pm states that Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I, “the proliferation of weapons from Libya has continued at a too, congratulate the hon. Member for York Central worrying rate and has spread into new territory: West Africa, the (Hugh Bayley) on securing this debate. He has fulfilled Levant and, potentially, even the Horn of Africa. Since the his responsibilities as president of the NATO Parliamentary uprising and the resulting collapse of the security apparatus, Assembly in an exemplary manner, to the credit of including the loss of national control over weapons stockpiles Members in all parts of this House. and the absence of any border controls, Libya has over the past two years become a significant and attractive source of weaponry All three of the major military contributors to NATO in the region. Illicit flows from the country are fuelling existing have in the last few weeks made a significant policy conflicts in Africa and the Levant and enriching the arsenals of a change on the supply of equipment to Syria. All three range of non-State actors, including terrorist groups.” 1119 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1120

Jeremy Corbyn: I compliment the right hon. Gentleman stockpile. They should ask themselves the questions, on his excellent speech. Does he agree that, once those “Where are the British weapons that went into that weapons have leeched out of Libya, there is no way of stockpile; which countries are they now in; and in retrieving or controlling them, and no way of knowing whose hands are they now in?” Most of all, they should where they will end up? This happened in Afghanistan ask themselves, “If Britain is going to supply military in the past, and it could well happen in Syria. equipment to Syria, what is the risk of putting petrol on the fire?” Sir John Stanley: The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to learn that he has anticipated a point I am 2.20 pm about to raise. I raised the future of the Libya-Gaddafi arms stockpile Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): with the director-general of the Royal United Services If I may say so, it is a privilege to follow such a powerful Institute, Professor Michael Clarke, when he gave oral speech about the spread of weapons. The whole House evidence to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee last respects my hon. Friend’s extraordinary devotion to his week. His answers were extremely illuminating. In reply work on arms control for the Quadripartite Committee. to my first question to him, he said: He approaches his subject with a passion and knowledge that is probably unrivalled in either House of Parliament. “The arsenals that existed in Libya, as we all know, were extensive, and there has been almost no control over those weapons If I may, however, I would like to respond, perhaps stocks. The new Government has proved virtually incapable of impertinently, to my hon. Friend’s implied rebuke to the preventing those weapons stocks draining away.” Government for their helping to persuade the European He went on to make this key point: Union to lift the arms embargo on the supply of weapons to the Syrian National Council—the least unrespectable “Weapons never go out of commission; they just go somewhere else. Almost all weapons find a new home once a war is over.” part, if I may put it that way, of the Syrian opposition, which we would want to be properly represented in the On Syria, he said: peace negotiation or peace settlement that we are all “There is a lot of evidence that Libyan weapons are now striving to achieve. I support the Government in seeking circulating pretty freely in the Levant, and that seems to be where to redress the extraordinary imbalance affecting the they will have the most destabilising effect.” more reasonable forces involved in this extraordinarily The huge geographical dispersal of the Libyan stockpile bloody and complex conflict. is happening not only because of the breakdown NATO should be agonising over this whole issue of security in Libya following the end of the Gaddafi because it will have to pick up the pieces of a spreading regime but because, in the middle east and in north Africa, war and conflagration that almost inevitably will occur all through Saharan Africa and down to west Africa, unless the United States, Russia and the other major arms are seen in a different way than they are in NATO powers in the region—including, perhaps, even Iran—start countries. In NATO countries, the value of weapons to sit around a table and work out how to contain the relates to their military capabilities. We ask how capable conflict. a weapon is, how much firepower it has, how accurate it is, and so on. In that part of the world, however, there We were right to question whether there might be a is a different approach to weapons. It is not merely a case for sending arms into Syria to try to redress the matter of their military utility. They are tradeable items. imbalance, because the regime is already using a massive stockpile of weapons. Russian-trained pilots are flying I put that point to Professor Clarke: Russian aircraft, dropping Russian munitions and firing “Would you conclude from that, as some people have, that the Russian shells out of Russian guns at civilians all over very act of supplying weapons in those circumstances means that Syria. I find it very difficult to tolerate the idea that the you are basically supplying weapons into a commercial market? Russians should be able to do whatever they want in The moment the weapons leave your possession—whether it is weapons or ammunition—they become commodities to be sold at their bloody way in that country, while the west sits idly the highest price.” by doing nothing. It is not just the Russians, as extremist Sunni factions, too, are being armed by Qatari and He replied: Saudi interests, which are pouring weapons into the “I would agree with that. There is no such thing as an end-user Syrian conflagration. guarantee on anything other than the most sophisticated of weaponry. Everything below the level of major aerial, maritime The danger is not that our sitting back and doing and ground-based combat systems—the really high-tech stuff nothing will mean that nothing happens or that the that we produce—that is classed as small arms, light weaponry or pre-2010 stasis will reassert itself as Assad reasserts his even medium-range weaponry, is on the market once it is sold to power. The danger is that this conflagration will grow anybody.” and grow and grow. I therefore think the Government A key question for NATO is whether our decision are right to try to redress the political balance and to takers will take account of the very different way in tempt the Americans into entering this crisis—otherwise, which arms are seen in that part of the world. Arms are NATO will finish up having to pick up the pieces in a seen not merely as weapons but as money-making very much more active and perhaps unfortunate way opportunities. Arms are bazaar items; they are there to than we would wish. be bought and sold at a profit if at all possible. That brings us back to our subject, Madam Deputy In conclusion, I say to my right hon. Friend the Speaker—I hear you heaving a sigh of relief—which is Secretary of State for Defence, to my right hon. Friend the question, “What is NATO in our modern age?” I the Foreign Secretary and, most particularly, to my thought that my right hon. Friend the Member for right hon. Friend the Prime Minister: before deciding North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman whether to supply particular lethal weapons and equipment of the Defence Select Committee, was right when he to Syria, take note of what happened to the Libyan said that NATO has become a coalition of the willing—an 1121 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1122 organisation or a military alliance from which a coalition Mr Jenkin: I am ahead of the right hon. Gentleman, of the willing can be drawn. I do not rebuke the Minister and ahead of the official Opposition. I have tabled a for representing the Government at this debate because question to the Prime Minister, and I am waiting for his NATO is a political alliance that represents the foreign written reply. I cannot tell the House any more than policy of this country, albeit backed by national military that, although my hon. Friend the Minister might be capability, pledged in co-operation to support the objectives able to do so. of that political alliance. We know that there is no alternative to Trident, Why is NATO still needed? I hope that I have just because we have been briefed to that effect, so why does exposed one possible reason—to prevent war and to this uncertainty still hang over our deterrent? The answer contain conflict. The reason NATO seems to be redundant is that there is now talk of our no longer needing and out of date to so many of our citizens today is that continuous at-sea deterrence. It is being said that we could it has been so successful—the most successful military have, or could risk having, a part-time deterrent by alliance in modern history—at containing, deterring having fewer than the four submarines that are essential and preventing conflict so that our continent feels perhaps to the guaranteeing of continuous at-sea deterrence. deceptively safe from foreign conflict. NATO not only I need hardly explain to the House why that idea simply won the cold war, but keeps the peace. People should does not bear scrutiny. At a time of crisis, putting a not forget the adage “If you want peace, prepare for nuclear submarine to sea to stand guard over our country war”, as that is what NATO is about. is a very public act, because submarines go to sea on the Deterrence is the watchword—preventing wars rather surface. The submarine would be exposed to possible than fighting them. That is why we spend money on enemy pre-emptive attack, and our foreign policy would defence—not to use the military capability in hot conflict, be exposed to accusations of escalation and inflammatory but so that we do not have to use the capability at all. Its acts at a time when sensitive international negotiations use is pacific. That is one of the reasons the nuclear were taking place. A continuous at-sea deterrent that is deterrent lies at the heart of NATO military doctrine. It not at sea 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, is not a viable is the relationship between the future of NATO and the deterrent. It would be vulnerable to attack and vulnerable continuation of our own nuclear deterrent that I shall to misinterpretation, and at a moment of crisis we explore briefly this afternoon. would hardly ever dare to put it to sea. I cannot imagine There are three NATO nuclear powers: France, Britain why it takes intelligent people so long to work out that if and the United States. What threatens the future of we are not going to order four submarines, we might as NATO today is not just apathy or the parsimony of its well not order any. member Governments’ defence budgets, and neither is I regret to say that that uncertainty is being sustained it ignorance about its vital role. NATO is not going to by our Liberal Democrat coalition partners. The implication be abolished suddenly. Nobody is going to make a must be that they want the issue to be a bargaining chip decision at some NATO summit that NATO has had its in the negotiations of a future coalition. As my hon. day and will be wound up. The great danger is that Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) has NATO withers. I put it to the House that, with the war repeatedly pointed out, if they have a choice between fatigue following Iraq and Afghanistan and the lack of coalition partners at the next general election and one appetite for NATO to play its deterrent peacekeeping of the parties offers unilateral nuclear disarmament—which and stabilisation role across the world, NATO is already is what this amounts to—that is the party that they will withering. The collapse of key components of NATO is choose. another danger, as is the uncertainty and the question The hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen mark that still exists over the continuation of our own Gilbert) is shaking his head. If I am wrong and the nuclear deterrent. In fact, that is a threat to the continuation Liberal Democrats are now committed to the renewal of NATO. of the Trident deterrent with four submarines, I invite With the greatest respect to those who advocate the hon. Gentleman to put me right. European Union alternatives or supplements to NATO, I say that without NATO European defence is sunk. Stephen Gilbert: Like the hon. Gentleman, we are all NATO has been doing European defence and security eagerly awaiting the publication of the report that is and it is doing European defence and security: there no being prepared by the Prime Minister and the Deputy substitute or alternative to NATO. Prime Minister. When we have seen that report, we can We have left a question mark about the vital part of have a debate on the basis of some facts. NATO’s capability. Our nuclear deterrent is pledged to the defence of NATO and our NATO allies. The Mr Jenkin: I do, indeed, eagerly await the report’s Government have conducted a study into possible publication. I wonder what the delay can be. alternatives to the Trident nuclear deterrent. Now is not the time to go into great detail about that, except to say I do not think that the report turned out to be quite that we understand that it has exposed the truth: that what the Liberal Democrats wanted, although many of there is no viable or cheaper alternative to our nuclear us had been saying that submarine-launched Cruise deterrent. Trident is the only viable nuclear deterrent on missiles, land-based systems or new air-launched weapons offer to the United Kingdom. would be not only impossibly expensive, but probably illegal under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. However, Mr Spellar: Can the hon. Gentleman—who is probably I am glad that they have learnt that much. Perhaps they better informed than Opposition Front Benchers on will now learn something else. this—give us any idea of when he expects the outcome Because that uncertainty rests over our deterrent, it of the study to be published so that we can have that rests over the whole of Europe’s deterrence system. We informed debate? should not imagine for a moment that it would be easy 1123 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1124

[Mr Jenkin] British nuclear deterrent will remain at Faslane. It would be impossibly expensive to move it, and were they to for a French Government, equally afflicted by austerity insist on scrapping it, they would deliver a fatal blow to and public pressures, to sustain their deterrent if we the affordability of our nuclear deterrent. If it were were going to wind ours down. We should not believe brought down to some other part of the United Kingdom for a second that the United States would remain as over a short period and stationed there—if a deep-water committed to NATO and the transatlantic alliance if it port were found where all the weapons systems and became apparent that the European powers were no weapons storage and protection facilities would be longer prepared to shoulder their burden of nuclear welcome—not only would Scotland be giving up the responsibility in the defence of our own continent. We largest employer on its own the west coast, but it would should not think for a minute that the United Kingdom’s be wrecking NATO. The fact that Scotland has taken a relationship with the United States could stay the same stronger anti-nuclear stance than any other NATO if we threw the gift of the Trident nuclear deterrent member—refusing, unlike any other NATO member, back in its face after the US had gone to such lengths to not just to admit visiting nuclear forces but to allow any share the costs, development and risks of the system nuclear forces to be stationed on its soil, even in a that we both deploy. crisis—means that it would never be allowed to join The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) rightly NATO. referred to the importance of continued co-operation between our conventional forces. It is true that we 2.39 pm engage in extensive military co-operation. The airborne Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I am going to return forces based in the constituency of my hon. Friend the to the theme that the vice-president of the NATO Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) need to be Parliamentary Assembly started us on: why NATO? By integrated with the American military command when the end of next year, we will be out of combat in necessary, so that we have a role in supplementing Afghanistan. Clearly, there will be a period of readjustment American forces. The Americans can do so much less for western armed forces. The British Army is being unless they have international support, and we are reduced by 20%. The other armed forces—the Air Force always their first port of call in that regard. It is our and the Navy—are being reduced by a similar amount. influence over American policy that gives us our leverage. The Americans are already declaring that sequestration That is why, when there is a really big international will take $50 billion a year out of their $550 billion budget, crisis, the American President does not call the French, which is a lot. Therefore, fundamentally, there will be the Germans, the Japanese, the Indians or the Chinese. big changes. It is always the British Prime Minister whom the American When NATO started in 1949, General Lord Ismay President calls first. said that its purpose was Many people are aware of the importance of the “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans intelligence-sharing relationship between the Americans down.” and GCHQ, which demonstrates an extraordinary degree Obviously, the situation has changed a lot. The Warsaw of trust, but it is not widely known how integrated our pact was formed in 1955 as a reaction to NATO. We nuclear forces are. We send our submarines to the could not have had NATO without German rearmament. United States, and the Americans subject them to I and other members in the House spent most of our readiness-at-sea trials. The Americans train our crews military careers preparing for what we loosely called the for NATO operations, and, indeed, we train theirs. We third world war, hoping it would not happen. Thank certify their crews for readiness at sea. The relationship goodness it did not happen on the north German plain. between our two nuclear submarine fleets is deeply When the Berlin wall fell, everything changed and NATO symbiotic. It is burden-sharing in the real sense of the had to change. As I have explained to the House on term. If we were not to maintain continuous at-sea previous occasions, after I came back from Bosnia, in deterrence, we would deliver a mortal blow to the my last two years in the Army, I was a member of the US-UK relationship, to our ability to contribute to planning team at Supreme Allied Commander Europe. global security, and to NATO. We most definitely were not seeking a new role outside Let me make two more points, which will serve as a Europe; it was largely thrust upon us. Therefore, doubts coda. Last week the Public Administration Committee remain about NATO and its solidarity. I agree that we published a report, “Engaging the public in National must keep banging on about NATO’s target of spending Strategy”, which explains how “deliberative” polling 2% of GDP on defence. We must keep it. The problem can be used more effectively to help us to understand is that some people, particularly in France, suggest that what motivates our voters, what aspirations they have, the alliance is and what sort of country the British people want ours “an alliance of the unable and unwilling”. to be. Members of the public were asked a number of A French academic said that. I put it to the House that questions, one of which concerned nuclear forces. It NATO has a good future. became clear that most people in the United Kingdom Twenty years ago, who would have thought that would order the four submarines: 57% said that they Russia would be resurgent? Russian military spending is would rather do that than give up our nuclear weapons now increasing by three quarters of a billion dollars; it altogether, which is what the alternative amounts to. will have increased by 53% by 2015. Russia still possesses Let me say finally that the great danger—the wild more than 1 million troops and it has 20 million in the card—is Scotland. The Scottish people must make their reserve. However, the Russians have big problems. Russian own decision about their independence, but even if they military prosecutors recently said that about a fifth of vote for it, if they want Scotland to continue to be a the budget had been embezzled, so they are trying to member of NATO, they had better accept that the sort that out. However, look at the Russian navy. We 1125 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1126 have talked about the high north. That navy has been whatever we do within NATO, we must try to work in transformed in the last eight years: 45% of the ships in such a way that our armed forces can deal with as many the Russian navy will be replaced by 2015. By 2007, envisaged eventualities as possible while also expecting Russia was building as many ships every year as the that we will still be surprised. NATO gives us more Soviets did at the height of their power. combat power, by collaboration with others. My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North I am about to conclude Mr Deputy Speaker—I think Essex (Mr Jenkin) made an excellent speech on the you might be looking at your watch. The problem is nuclear deterrent. The Russians certainly think in terms that our potential enemies remain our potential enemies. of flexible response. They envisage using tactical nuclear Symmetric warfare between states is not dead. We may weapons in their exercises; a recent exercise that they think it is. We have not had a war for 70 years, when undertook in the Baltic states suggested exactly that. Europe historically had six or seven each century, and Part of their war-fighting ability is to use nuclear weapons. thus the public ask, “Why do we have to spend money That is one of the reasons that we must retain our on defence?” The problem is that that has not gone nuclear deterrent. away and we may well be surprised. Defence is an insurance policy, therefore. We want to Mr Jenkin: Not only do the Russians exercise that deter the possibility of war. We do not want to use capability, but they talk about it, have not renounced nuclear weapons. The point of possessing nuclear weapons first use and have said that they would use their nuclear is to avoid using them by avoiding threats. The aim is to weapons in a conventional conflict against their neighbours. help our country be left alone and not be attacked, and, in NATO terms, the aim is to avoid all NATO countries Bob Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. being attacked. He puts it better than I could write it. I believe very strongly that we must remain part of In China, Xi Jinping has consolidated his power. He NATO as I believe it has a big future. I disagree with talks of fighting to win wars. There has been a 10.7% those who say its purpose, in Lord Ismay’s definition, is increase in the Chinese military budget. The strategic gone. No, NATO is required because it helps us, as a forces of China now have 3,000 miles of tunnels. They medium-sized nation, to combine with other nations—the have 850 nuclear warheads ready to launch. They are French, the Germans, the Spanish and other nations almost at strategic parity with the United States. They that are not members of NATO—and form a coalition are also building globally deployable forces, which are of the willing to deal with problems in the world. now edging into the Mediterranean, as we have heard, We must have the resilience to adapt, to deter and to and coming through the high Arctic. They are challenging deal with the unexpected, and we should try to do that western strategic military superiority. as cheaply as possible of course. The days of huge Something else is new, and we have touched on it in military budgets are over; they are long gone. The best the debate: cyber-warfare. The Defence Committee has way is for us to collaborate and work with like-minded just completed a report on that. It is a new form of war. states, and NATO is most certainly the best means to It is invidious and evolving at unimaginable speed, with that end. serious consequences. Cyber-space is an aspect of 2.51 pm asymmetric warfare. It is very difficult to identify sometimes Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I congratulate the where these attacks are coming from. State actors such hon. Members who have secured this debate, especially as China, North Korea, Iran and Syria are devoting my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh resources to it. Hacking can be more deadly than the Bayley), a long-standing colleague and the president of gun. The targets are government, industry and the the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. May I also say, military. There is great concern in the west about how Mr Deputy Speaker, how pleased I am to be participating disruptive cyber-attacks can be. For example, on 23 April, once again in a defence debate, although, like the right in seconds, the United States stock market dropped 1%, hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), losing $136.5 billion, because of a false tweet put into I am slightly puzzled as to why the Minister for the the system, possibly from Syria. Armed Forces is not responding? Sometimes the working The United States is changing some of the focus of of the minds of Government business managers baffles its direction. Its strategy now, as the Defence Committee even me. heard when we were in the US, is to concentrate on The debate also takes me back to the first defence trying to avoid war much more. The Americans do not team of the incoming Labour Government, with Lord want any war that is not short term. They are looking at Robertson, Lord Reid and our late and much-missed Asia. Sequestration will cost an enormous amount in friend and defence stalwart who died recently, Lord military terms. The Americans consider that Russia is Gilbert. I am proud to have been part of such a formidable not a great threat at the moment—although its military team. spending is increasing, as I have mentioned—but that I was very pleased and encouraged by the nature of China is and it is growing in power. However, as one the debate, which demonstrated the bipartisan support American academic put it to the Committee, “Going to for Britain’s defence in NATO and our own armed war with China would be like going to war with your forces. It is right, therefore, to stress the bipartisan bank if you are an American.” Thankfully, since 2001, support for NATO by all Governments of both political there have been huge improvements in US intervention parties since the war, which has also reflected the solid power: there has been a two thirds increase in its intervention support of the British people. Members on both sides power capability. of the House have spoken in that spirit in the main, The lesson of European, and world, history is that recognising, I am sure, that it was Attlee and Bevin surprise is normal. The unexpected should always be whose foresight founded NATO and also, incidentally, expected, so we should expect to be surprised. Therefore, commissioned Britain’s first nuclear weapons programme. 1127 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1128

Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): NATO The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office was originally a political grouping and then became (Mr Hugo Swire): Would the right hon. Gentleman say military after the Berlin blockade, and particularly after that that created more of a problem or less of a problem the Korean war. The right hon. Gentleman is right to than the £35 billion black hole that his Government left mention that the Labour Foreign Secretary of 1948 this Government to sort out? prepared the basis for the Western European Union, however. It has now gone, but it was an important part Mr Spellar: Interestingly, Government Members have of the history of political and military co-operation in got back to their default answer to every question being Europe. the so-called black hole, as these days Unite and Len McCluskey are normally the cause of all the problems. Mr Spellar: The hon. Gentleman will also find that This is a ridiculous way for Government Members to the North Atlantic treaty, including article 5, was signed continue, because many Conservative Members at the in 1948 and that Ernie Bevin was the prime instigator of time of “Options for Change”—those who were involved that. The hon. Gentleman is right that there were a very much on the military side—were concerned at the limited number of countries and that other countries cuts that were taking place. They did recognise that they came in later, but that demonstrates the foresight of were not planned, that the Treasury was taking too that Government, who saw the nature of the threat and much out of defence and that that was to the detriment recognised Britain’s responsibility to play our part in of defence. addressing it—and, as I have said, who saw the need to Unfortunately, the current Administration seem to be commission Britain’s first nuclear weapons programme. repeating that error with their policy of drastic retrenchment in our military capability. That is damaging not only in We should also recognise and celebrate the fact that itself—we will have a debate on that—but in the message NATO has been one of the most successful military it sends to Washington, because there is a proper debate alliances in history, if not the most successful, especially in Washington about the balance of military expenditure if judged by the attainment of the objectives in restraining and its deployment. We need to get that into perspective, and containing an aggressive and virulent Soviet threat because it is undoubtedly true that, as President Obama until the ultimate, and, in George Kennan’s prediction, says, America is still the indispensible power. We should inevitable—even if it was rather protracted—implosion recognise that US defence spending is twice as much as of that empire. NATO protected the free world and that of the other NATO countries combined, including western Europe, and also provided a beacon of hope for Canada and Turkey. Furthermore, as we all know, the the liberation, with minimal bloodshed ultimately, of US spends its money, particularly in the equipment eastern Europe. programme, more efficiently. That does not mean that we should unthinkingly There have been exaggerated concerns about a US continue an organisation that has served us well in the pivot towards the Pacific, which my hon. Friend the past, but we must give serious consideration to adapting Member for Bridgend mentioned. The move from an such an effective organisation to deal with emerging estimated 60% focus on the Atlantic and 40% focus on challenges and threats. I was very much taken by the the Pacific to a 50:50 balance is a shift, but 50% of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend US defence budget is still more than that of the rest of (Mrs Moon) about the ability, through NATO, to undertake NATO put together; the US is still a formidably effective strategic thinking. The success of that policy of NATO and overwhelming presence. Our real concern should inevitably and legitimately raised questions about the therefore be voices on Capitol Hill, as people there may role of defence and collective security through NATO become weary of what they would see as carping criticisms at the end of the cold war. My hon. Friend the Member from Europe. They may question whether, after the end for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) touched on that of the cold war, the US still has that obligation to show period during his contribution. I have to say, and I such a commitment to European defence unless European think that there would be some agreement on this countries, including ourselves, show a similar level of among some Government Members, that the then commitment. Conservative Government, under their policy programme Hon. Members have mentioned Secretary Gates’s “Options for Change”, too readily reached for the so-called comments about the need for Europe to pull its weight peace dividend, cut too far and too fast, and badly in NATO. Otherwise, he said, NATO will have little undermined our capability. They did not comprehend future. He has called for the European nations to step the stark warning from Senator Pat Moynihan that the up to the bar. world was still a dangerous place and that the end of the cold war represented perhaps less threat but also less We are either all in this together, committed to playing peace. our full parts, or we are not an alliance that will last. We should also recognise that our public are becoming wary and weary and that there is public reticence about Mr Arbuthnot: I remember, because I was then a international military expedition. Mixed and impatient Parliamentary Private Secretary in the Ministry of Defence, European public opinion on Libya demonstrated that, that the Labour party was begging us to cut further and and I would say to the right hon. Member for Tonbridge faster at that time. and Malling (Sir John Stanley) that if he looks in Hansard he will see that at the time of the Libya Mr Spellar: The Labour defence team I mentioned situation, I was raising questions in this House about recognised fully how the impact of the cuts the Conservative the fate of surface-to-air missiles—an issue that had Government had put through under “Options for Change” been raised with me at a very senior level by concerned had caused huge problems, particularly on the manning officials in the Russian administration; they had sold side. Huge disruption was caused to manning levels, them to Libya in the first place, but they were concerned recruitment and training. about their location. 1129 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1130

We need to recognise that there is a danger that The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel multilateralist proactive action will be hampered by Kawczynski) has only just walked into the Chamber, public scepticism and reserve arising from the experience but he seems to have a lot to say. of recent conflicts and that that will be a problem in all our countries. I recognise that the percentage of GDP Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I spent on defence by the UK is greater than that of other think I know when people came in, but not to worry European nations whose defence spending, as a number about that. I am more concerned about the fact that of Members have mentioned, is at a level that is you have been speaking for 15 minutes and only have a unsustainable if we are to continue to have an effective minute left, Mr Spellar. European component in the alliance. Those are significant issues with which Ministers and the NATO Parliamentary Mr Spellar: I have been giving way, Mr Deputy Assembly will have to continue to deal. Speaker. I say to the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney), regarding his remarks about Somalia, that Mr Deputy Speaker: Giving way does not extend the I think it is unfortunate for us to start to pose NATO debate, and we have given a lot of extensions. There are against the EU in that context. Somalia is a particularly 15 minutes for each Front Bencher. I am very lenient bad example to pick. There is no uncertainty in the and can allow a minute or two, but not much more. mind of a serving rating or officer about the chain of command—the person who is giving him the orders is Mr Spellar: In that case, Mr Deputy Speaker, I shall above him in the chain of command. In fact, Somalia move on to two other areas I think we need to consider has been enormously effective in dealing with piracy—not in the context of NATO. One is security, the work of one ship has been captured by the pirates this year and GCHQ and operations in cyberspace. there has been a dramatic drop in piracy and in the For Britain, more than for any other alliance country, number of people being held—and in integrating the our relationship with NATO is intrinsically bound up international efforts of countries with different traditions, with our defence and security relationship with the and perhaps even different objectives, but with a combined United States. That is clear to those who serve in the objective of trying to keep the sea lanes open and to Parliamentary Assembly and other right hon. and hon. protect seafarers, vessels and cargos. Those operations Members who take defence and security matters seriously. have been well synchronised between the various parties. Our relationship with the United States is unique and It shows that where there is a properly organised European indispensable, not only in the hard power defence of component that can play a useful part and is an our liberties and interests, but in the developing struggle encouragement to countries of the EU to step up their against international terrorism and organised crime— contribution to defence within that framework, rather especially the trafficking of people, narcotics and weapons, than a cause for criticism. as my hon. Friend the Member for York Central said—and Jason McCartney: Would the right hon. Gentleman in the sphere of cyberspace, through our security services be happy to know that there is an EU mission staffed and GCHQ. with 80 people in Djibouti, duplicating the effort provided Unfortunately, albeit for understandable reasons, success by our embassy, the French embassy and the German against those threats cannot be widely publicised, but embassy? Or is he happy yet again to spend yet more the pooling of technology resources and intellectual money on more bureaucracy? analytical capacity, and indeed the courage of individuals who often have to operate in very dangerous environments, Mr Spellar: Again, the answer to everything is Europe. is a joint endeavour. We owe a great debt to all those If efficiencies are needed, that is worth considering—and involved in that work and should acknowledge it more they would be welcome—but I notice that the hon. widely, and I am pleased to do so here today. Gentleman in no way denied that this was an effective Military and security cohesion is a necessary but not operation. There might be some surplus people, and let sufficient condition for the ongoing health of the alliance. us have a look at that, but the integration of the NATO Other elements of the transatlantic relationship also operation and Operation Atalanta has been very successful. need to be refreshed, which is why the talks on the We should be celebrating that, because other piracy transatlantic trade and investment partnership are so problems are emerging in other parts of the world that encouraging. As ever, there will be a host of complications will need to be dealt with and the United States will be and vested interests to overcome, but if the participants neither able nor willing to participate in all of them. can keep their eye on the main prize, it will be considerable. Issues might well arise in west Africa partly because of Achieving greater integration of the north Atlantic terrorism but partly because of the serious rise in the market, with five of the G8 countries and approaching influence of organised crime. half the world’s GDP, would not only provide a vital Jason McCartney: Of course it is a successful mission economic boost, but further consolidate our political in Somalial; there are so many people there doing so and security relationships. many things. Another example of the overlap came when NATO, founded by the great post-war Government we went to Northwood for a briefing: we had a briefing of Attlee and Bevan, has served this country and the from the NATO admiral—a three-star—and had to free world well. It faces challenges, and we should be have exactly the same briefing an hour later from an EU prepared to meet them. We should remember that some admiral. Too many three-stars and top brass—come on! of those who argue NATO’s irrelevance today are those who, at the height of the cold war, were most opposed Mr Spellar: No doubt in the second world war, the to NATO. Collective defence and collective security hon. Gentleman would have complained if he had to have served us well throughout my lifetime. May they meet both Montgomery and Eisenhower. [Interruption.] continue to do so into the future. 1131 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1132

3.8 pm The United Kingdom remains committed to filling The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office 100% of our allocated slots in the NATO command (Mr Hugo Swire): I thank the hon. Member for York structure. At the organisational level, we need to ensure Central (Hugh Bayley) and my hon. and gallant Friend that NATO remains open to change and able to build the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) for on its experience, that it is reform-minded and continuously requesting this debate, which has highlighted NATO’s reforming, that it is fully accountable and that its activities continued importance to the UK’s interests. I pay tribute and procedures are transparent and fully in line with to their work and that of other right hon. and hon. best practice, which will underpin its future credibility. Members who serve in the NATO Parliamentary The UK has been leading efforts to ensure that NATO Assembly—an institution that, as we have heard today, remains lean and effective, evolving as the security provides an important link between NATO and the environment changes so that it stays relevant and responsive, public in its member countries. and we will continue to do so with energy. I join all those who have congratulated the hon. Afghanistan will remain an important focus for the Member for York Central on being elected president of alliance after the end of combat operations. ISAF’s the Parliamentary Assembly by parliamentarians from transfer of security responsibility to the Afghans is on NATO parliamentary delegations in November. He has track for completion by the end of 2014. As my right visited Afghanistan more than half a dozen times, so hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, we can be I also pay tribute to his unwavering support for our proud of what we have done in Afghanistan, but along armed forces. with other members of the international community, our work is far from over. Post-2014, the UK will take Since it was established in 1949, NATO has been the coalition lead at the new Afghan national army fundamental to transformations in regional security: officer academy and look to operate in NATO’s train, consolidating the post-war transatlantic link; preventing advise and assist mission, Resolute Support. This is in the re-emergence of conflicts that had dogged Europe addition to the £70 million that the UK has committed for the preceding 50 years; contributing to the fall of to funding the Afghan national security forces. communism and the gradual democratisation of the former Soviet bloc; and leading operations in the Balkans, It will be crucial to the alliance’s future credibility Afghanistan and Libya. Purely through its existence, that it is able to maintain an open door to those NATO serves as a potent deterrent to those who would European democracies which meet the standard and wish us harm. It remains the best tool we have for tackling wish to join. The United Kingdom remains firmly certain threats to our national security further afield. committed to the prospective membership of Georgia, NATO is at a crucial juncture. The end of combat Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia and Montenegro, operations in Afghanistan will change the nature of once they are ready to join. The hon. Member for Ilford daily life for the alliance. The continued pressure on South (Mike Gapes) asked about Kosovo. KFOR continues defence budgets and the US rebalance towards Asia to maintain freedom of movement and a safe and further change the strategic context in which NATO secure environment in Kosovo, in line with United operates. Yet the threats and challenges that face us in Nations Security Council resolution 1244. As he will the 21st century make NATO more, not less, important: know, the UK fully supports the continued NATO continued instability in the middle east, north Africa presence in Kosovo as long as conditions require. Supreme and the Sahel; the growing risk of nuclear proliferation; Allied Commander Europe has advised that strategic and increased threats from failed and failing states, patience is the order of the day and we share that view. from both state and non-state actors. Against this complex NATO’s ability to work with partners will be crucial. backdrop, it is all the more important that NATO is fit A number of right hon. and hon. Members touched on for purpose in political and military terms. this during the debate. Partners considerably augment Despite concern over the US’s rebalance towards NATO’s capabilities—for example, providing 10% of Asia, the United States has been clear that it remains the air campaign in Operation Unified Protector in committed to transatlantic defence, but we need to Libya in 2011. Partnerships also boost NATO’s political ensure that Europe is seen to be carrying its fair share weight: partners see mutual benefit in working with the of the burden of that defence. The hon. Member for alliance and it is an incentive to do defence better. The St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) and others UK will continue to lead the way in giving focus and raised the issue of the Government pressing our European momentum to NATO’s partnerships. allies to meet the target of 2% of GDP defence spending. Considerable attention has been drawn to NATO’s As my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary said at relationship with one partner in particular—Russia. I his most recent meeting with NATO colleagues, we will fully agree with those who have highlighted concern continue to press them to do that, while doing what we over Russia’s political direction in recent months and can to protect defence investment and maximise its years, but it is vital that we continue to engage with impact in the shorter term. I agree with the hon. Member Russia. It is already a key security partner in areas such for York Central that we need to explain to allies and as counter-terrorism and maritime security. We should our own public why this spending is important. continue to look for common ground where it exists in We will also continue to press to make the NATO order that we can more constructively discuss the issues defence planning process as robust, transparent and on which we do not agree. That is the approach we will rigorous as possible, and for all Europeans to organise continue to take, both bilaterally and within NATO. our collective capabilities in a more cohesive, coherent The middle east is a region of obvious strategic and prioritised way. Small multinational frameworks importance, as demonstrated by current developments such as that which we have achieved with France through in Egypt. It is absolutely right that NATO continues to the Lancaster House treaties may be the best way of monitor and discuss developments in the region, including doing this. considering their impact on the alliance and whether it 1133 NATO4 JULY 2013 NATO 1134 can contribute to security there. That is why we support of the first multinational taskforces was at the battle the current careful deliberations in NATO on whether it of Trafalgar. He went on to describe NATO as a vital might provide some assistance to the Libyan Government. resource from which a coalition of the willing could be It is also why we believe it is right for the North Atlantic formed. That probably encapsulates this debate as well Council to discuss the situation in Syria, including with as anything else should any headlines emanate from it. NATO’s partners in the region, such as Jordan and My right hon. Friend also discussed value for money, Morocco. which is incredibly important. The United Kingdom Various Members, including the hon. Member for emphasises the importance of resource management Moray (Angus Robertson), who is no longer in his and rigorous prioritisation of military requirements. place, the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who Our national position is that NATO budgets should serves on the Defence Committee, and the hon. Member operate within the framework of zero nominal growth, for Ilford South, who serves on the Foreign Affairs but approved budgets will require the consensus of all Committee, asked a number of questions about the high 28 member nations. Within agreed common funding north. The Arctic is not currently a region of high tension ceilings, NATO prioritises all military requirements. As and the Arctic Council has proved to be successful at my right hon. Friend will know, there is an ongoing maintaining inclusivity in the region. Although some debate within NATO regarding the limited use of common regional actors may look to NATO to deter selected funding as an enabler for NATO forces in 2020. The activities and act as a guarantor of security, the Secretary- United Kingdom consistently urges realism and applies General recently stated that NATO currently has no a rigorous standard to all NATO expenditure. intention of raising its presence and activities in the high north. The hon. Member for Bridgend and other Members Members will have noted with interest the strong talked about the implications of the US pivot. The US support given by the hon. Member for Bridgend and has been clear that the rebalancing towards Asia should my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North not be seen as a threat to the transatlantic relationship. Essex (Mr Jenkin) for maintaining a continuous at-sea Security threats and challenges evolve; so should the deterrent. Deliberations are underway and we will just response. The US is increasingly a security partner to have to wait and see the results of the review. I was Europe, rather than the provider of security for Europe. interested by the statistic that 57% of those consulted in The unbreakable bond between north America and a recent poll would rather order four more Trident Europe remains the bedrock of our security. The US submarines. has demonstrated its commitment to NATO, including through practical investments, such as the bases for The high north is not neglected by the Government. NATO’s ballistic missile defence. It is worth repeating The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend that even after the withdrawal of US army personnel the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), from Europe, their numbers remain higher in Europe visited the headquarters in Bodo in May, where he met than anywhere else outside America. There are about senior military personnel and discussed threats and 70,000 US personnel in Europe. challenges in the high north, not least those resulting from climate change. The question of whether Scotland would remain a member of NATO were it to vote to leave the United Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Minister give way? Kingdom next year has been raised. The SNP Minister for Transport and Veterans, Keith Brown, this week Mr Swire: I was just about to address the points admitted for the first time ever, before the Defence raised by the hon. Gentleman. He mentioned the peace Committee, that Scotland’s membership of the defence dividend following the collapse of the Soviet bloc. As he alliance would not be “automatic”. It most certainly knows, NATO is a collective security alliance and deterrence would not, and nor would its membership of the EU, remains one the alliance’s fundamental security tasks. the UN Security Council, the OECD and almost every The fundamental purpose of the nuclear forces of the other international forum that it enjoys being a member allies is political—to preserve peace and prevent coercion of through being part of the United Kingdom. and any kind of war. He will know that NATO has reduced the types and numbers of its sub-strategic My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and nuclear forces by more than 85%. Moreover, the alliance Malling (Sir John Stanley) made a very good speech has declared its reduced reliance on nuclear weapons about Syria, which my hon. Friend the Member for and has ruled out their use except in the most extreme Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) also referred to. cases of self-defence. The circumstances in which any I say clearly again that the United Kingdom has made use of nuclear weapons might have to be contemplated no decision to arm the Syrian opposition. Our priority by allies are extremely remote. remains finding a political solution and establishing a The hon. Member for York Central asked about the transitional Government. We are providing advice, non- state of NATO-Russia relations. NATO and Russia lethal equipment and technical assistance to the moderate have been co-operating through the NATO-Russia Council opposition, whom we recognise as the sole legitimate for 10 years. The alliance, including the UK, remains representatives of the Syrian people. committed to the NATO-Russia relationship. We have In closing, I come back to my earlier argument. The seen much in the way of good, practical co-operation uncertainties of the 21st century make an alliance such on a number of mutual security challenges, including as NATO more, not less, important. As my hon. Friend Afghanistan, counter-narcotics, transit routes and helicopter the Member for Harwich and North Essex said, NATO maintenance, as well as work against piracy. remains the world’s most successful military alliance, My right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Defence based on a shared set of democratic values. The Committee gave us a little vignette of his ancestor Government fully intend to maintain that success and ending up in Davy Jones’s locker and described how one to build on it. 1135 NATO 4 JULY 2013 1136

3.22 pm Corporate Structures and Financial Crime Hugh Bayley: I cannot respond to all the wonderful, well-informed, thoughtful and powerful contributions 3.24 pm that colleagues have made to this debate. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I beg to move, I will respond briefly to the exchange between the That this House has considered the use of corporate structures hon. Members for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen in the UK and money laundering, tax evasion and other financial Gilbert) and for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) about NATO’s crime. initial reluctance to get involved in the former Yugoslavia. It gives me pleasure to introduce the debate and to In the early ’90s, before I was a member of the thank the many Members from all parties who proposed Parliamentary Assembly, I was part of a cross-party it to the Backbench Business Committee, which we also delegation to NATO along with Max Madden, who thank for granting us the time for it. Perhaps in anticipation would have been close politically to my hon. Friend the of it, earlier this week the Financial Conduct Authority Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), and the made by far its strongest ever comment, including those late Michael Colvin, who was a mainstream Conservative. of its predecessor organisation the Financial Services We went to ask how practical it would be in military Authority, about the banks and so on. As a relevant terms to intervene. Everybody at NATO said that it was introduction to the debate, let me quote Tracey McDermott, utterly out of the question, until we got to meet the head of enforcement at the FSA, who this week said chairman of the military committee, Sir Richard Vincent. that banks’ trade finance businesses He said that it would have to be done sooner or later, and the longer we waited, the more difficult the military “remained particularly vulnerable to abuse by criminals and terrorists, and that in some cases the shipments being funded by options would be. lenders were just ‘fresh air’.” I welcome the contribution of my hon. Friend the Martin Wheatley, the new chief executive of the FCA, Member for Islington North. He is very much in a warned that organised criminal gangs “filtered, cleaned minority in the Chamber, but he speaks for many people and rebottled” £10 billion in the UK every year using in the general public whom we have to convince. The banks and other financial services. Chairman of the Defence Committee, who made an extremely good speech, said that he disagreed with me Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will the hon. on one point. He said that the NATO Parliamentary Gentleman give way? Assembly is not doing enough to make the case for the Assembly or for NATO itself. I would agree with him John Mann: I will finish my introduction first, because about that. Perhaps we have made a start today in this banks are just one aspect of the problem and I want to debate. focus on all aspects in my brief comments. This has been an exceptionally good debate. It is my The problem is that we have opaque structures that intention to go back to the Backbench Business Committee mean that people can avoid tax and participate in illegal and request debates twice a year after the spring and activities such as smuggling and money laundering. The autumn plenary sessions of the NATO Parliamentary amount of unregistered money involved is estimated by Assembly. If they are as good as this debate, they will some analysts worldwide as being in excess of £20 trillion. be worth while and will help to explain why we are a A third of that is estimated to be directly linked with the member of the alliance and what the Parliamentary European Union, and a third with UK Crown dependencies. Assembly does. I will illustrate how the problem works. An individual Question put and agreed to. sets up a firm in a country that keeps the names of Resolved, directors a secret, then links that firm with another firm That this House has considered NATO. in a respectable place such as the United Kingdom, where the details of who owns a company do not have to be registered if it is owned by another company. They then set up nominees to be directors of the opaque firm, register with the corporate registry in the initial country, open a bank account for the original firm and funnel money through the firm in the legitimate area to the original firm in the opaque country. There are many examples of that, and all areas of our national life, such as football, now seem to be covered by such structures. Whether it is illegal or legal, it is a major problem for transparency. We as legislators should be particularly concerned about any illegal aspects, and the banks have been at the forefront of those, as we have seen with the problems of money laundering. HSBC funded Iran with transactions involving £19.4 billion through shell companies over seven years, through the Channel Islands and the Cayman Islands. That broke sanctions but was incredibly hard to trace, because it happened through opaque shell companies In the case of crime, in one year alone the same company funnelled £7 billion through the Mexican Zetas drug cartel, the biggest and most violent 1137 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1138 Crime Crime criminal agency anywhere in the world. Again, it did to create criminality; they are turning a blind eye while so through shell operations. Various mafias have also their structures facilitate criminality. Others are using been involved. weaknesses in corporate structure to create criminality. The BBC’s “Panorama” exposed rather efficiently a Of the half a million companies that struck themselves woman called Lana Zamba, a Russian-born Cypriot off the UK corporate register in 2010, 40% had never yoga teacher, who was the director of a firm called filled in accounts with Companies House, and 33% had Nomirex and 23 other UK-based firms. Records showed paid no corporation tax that year. If large numbers of that those firms were inactive between 2007 and 2009, companies are not submitting accounts and returns to but “Panorama” demonstrated that £350 million had Companies House, we have a fundamental problem. passed through them in that time. Our problem in dealing with this issue is demonstrated, rather ironically, if we look at the two Front Benches. Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): The hon. Members present are excellently and diligently I thank my hon. Friend for his energy in securing representing their parties, but one notes that they come today’s debate. In the cases he outlines, does he agree from different Departments. That is part of the problem that the complexity of modern global banking should when it comes to Companies House, and I hope the not be used as an excuse for ignorance by those charged Minister will clarify—we hope on behalf of the Government with the stewardship of the banks, and that we should —who is responsible for Companies House and who put in place regulatory—and if necessary criminal— should be holding it to account in Parliament. sanctions to ensure that responsibility cannot be evaded Companies House is underfunded, under-resourced on the basis of professed ignorance? Responsibility for and perhaps under-specialised, and such opaqueness in running large global complex organisations must be our country has grown dramatically, allowing the creation taken by those in charge. of opaque corporate entities. That encourages criminality and discourages transparency for the general public, John Mann: My right hon. Friend makes a valid and decision makers in Parliament and others. relevant point about criminal sanctions. The banks’ On the impact of such actions, valid estimates indicate uniqueness is that they are the channel for funds. Because that Africa is losing twice as much in tax it cannot things are recorded in this technological age, it is collect because of opaque corporate structures as it gets straightforward for banks to investigate themselves and in development aid. In other words, if we cracked this see what is going on, so the plea of ignorance by those problem, the amount of development aid required from at the top is inexcusable. the west to Africa would diminish dramatically because What my right hon. Friend and I are saying, and the tax base itself would be generating income, which is, what I interpret the Financial Services Authority to be of course, a key component of a vibrant democracy. saying, is that responsibility must be taken at the top. Pleading ignorance is simply not good enough. We are Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I have talking not about small, missed operations but about never understood why successive British Governments huge major operations that funnel vast amounts of have not tightened up in this area. I understand that money. It is easy for banks to identify and track such there needs to be international agreement, but at least in operations, yet they choose not to do so. There seems to America there would be some accountability; we only be a particular problem of huge reputational risk to the have to look at Lehman brothers and others to see that. City of London because banks based in the UK have I do not understand why we allow tax havens not too been those most often caught out. However, I have far from these shores to exist. produced a document that demonstrates that this is not simply a UK problem. In recent years, every one of the John Mann: Let me come on to that. In Davos in top 50 banks in the world has had this problem and 2010, the Prime Minister said that he wished to “shine experienced prosecutions or ongoing investigations into a light” on corporate ownership. In the Lough Erne prosecutions. declaration, the calls were for more transparency, more international co-operation and stopping firms shifting Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I thank the hon. Gentleman profits to avoid tax. for securing a debate on this subject. Does he agree that What needs to be done by Government in these a board member should be made explicitly responsibly areas? On transparency, it is essential that the Government for each bank’s compliance? Anti-money laundering follow up their G8 commitment and create a UK register and due diligence provisions should be used effectively of beneficial owners, making things transparent and by the authorities to apply existing rules and ensure traceable and deterring people from using this country that people even go to jail if they have committed such for illegal purposes. All major countries—not least those crimes. in the G8 and the EU—need to collaborate. I note that Italy is already suggesting that it will not collaborate, John Mann: The hon. Lady makes a valuable point and we need to tackle those countries that are suggesting about the importance of compliance and how that must that they will not co-operate even with the modest take place at senior level. Everyone at senior level in a proposals emanating from the G8. bank must take responsibility and be held accountable We need effective enforcement with, as we have heard, for the structures within it. clear sanctions for law breaking; we need criminal sanctions; This is not simply a banking problem. Money laundering we need the collecting of fines. On the corporate structure, and some aspects of criminality are the biggest problems I suggest that raising the cost of setting up a company in terms of the volume of money involved, but there is from the current £15 and hypoth—[Interruption]—and also an issue of percentages and actuality of individual using that money explicitly and exclusively to ensure companies. Banks are not setting up opaque structures better regulation and policing. Hon. Members know 1139 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1140 Crime Crime [John Mann] I wanted to set some of the terms of the debate and implore those on both Front Benches to come forward which word I mean but I will not try to spit it out; we with effective proposals, because this is a major issue for might be here for the rest of the afternoon. Hypothecating the UK economy and for our democracy. is the word. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] 3.42 pm Firms that have not filed up-to-date tax returns need much greater sanction for not doing so. The fact that so Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): This is probably many choose not to do so and get away with it is a the first time in my parliamentary career that I find fundamental and major weakness. This is where this myself almost entirely in agreement with the hon. Member House needs to put its beady eye on what is going on at for Bassetlaw (John Mann). I think it is right to say—I Companies House. Is it properly resourced? Are its powers am sure my hon. Friend the Minister will confirm great enough? Is it doing the job properly? I would suggest this—that so too does the Prime Minister. He has stated that out of those, at least two must be at issue; perhaps that he thinks beneficial ownership information should all three. We must get on top of this in the near future. be in the public domain. The head of tax at the CBI has also stated that he thinks that information should be The question of tax liabilities and of how much public, saying that it is a “no brainer”. The International liability and responsibility are needed for directors in Banking Federation has said that this needs to be done, relation to the law needs to be reconsidered. As a and it supports public registries as a way of making specific micro-proposal that I think could have a huge anti-money laundering and “know your customer” impact, it should be illegal for anyone to set up a bank requirements both less expensive and more effective. account outside this country without informing HMRC and Companies House first. In other words, if people I wanted to intervene on the hon. Member for Bassetlaw are using British corporate structure, we should stop to make a point about money laundering, which now letting them set up overseas operation without anybody punishes lots of innocent people. One of the biggest knowing what is going on. supporters of international development in countries like Somaliland or Somalia, are remittances, but they We need legislation relating to the Crown dependencies. need systems to make them work. Barclays bank, which I have made this point on many occasions and I will has facilitated remittances, is now suspending that facility. make it again briefly now. It is unacceptable that our It is not that it thinks the people receiving the money in taxpayers provide defence and legal structures for those Hargeisa or Mogadishu are abusing it; it is concerned countries when they have an opaqueness that, whatever that it can no longer properly police who pays the money tax system and regime they end up having, does not in because of money laundering. Therefore, large numbers allow anyone to know what is going on. The football of people living in grinding poverty around the world industry in this country provides a good example. In will now be denied access to an important part of their vast numbers of football clubs nobody, including the development funding because of the actions of those spectators and those who are owed money when the who have been engaged in criminal money laundering clubs go bust, has a clue who owns what bit and where for a long time. and how. These major institutions are an example of Anyone who becomes a company director—the Register how deep the problem has become and how we have of Members’ Financial Interests shows that I am a failed to deal with it. We need to look to our regulations, director of a number of companies—must register at such as those being introduced on banking, and think Companies House. That includes registering all the about how they can be applied to UK dependencies. other companies of which they are a director and their Leaving them as they are is simply unacceptable, and it home address. All sorts of public information is involved, is becoming increasingly counter-productive for this which can be found not only by shareholders but by country. the general public, the media and non-governmental Tessa Munt: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving organisations. The information is totally accessible. There way again. I wanted to draw it his attention that the is absolutely no valid reason why that should not apply power has been used several times by the UK already to to corporate structures across the world. It is absolutely make the dependencies comply with other parts of right that we should be at the forefront of that. regulation, so we could just require them to do what I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for they should do. I would give as examples the banning of Wells (Tessa Munt) about the overseas territories. Some the death penalty, the rules on acceptance of homosexuality, 20 years ago, I was a junior Minister in the Foreign and, on a slightly minor level, an acceptance that they Office under Douglas Hurd—now Lord Hurd—as should ban pirate radio. Secretary of State. We undertook a review of the contingent liabilities for the dependent territories, as they then Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. were. There are considerable contingent liabilities, as we The hon. Lady knows, because it is repeatedly pointed saw with the Falkland Islands and elsewhere. Those out to her by occupants of the Chair, that interventions territories look to us to offer them protection, but as my must be brief. That was another very long intervention. hon. Friend pointed out in an intervention, there is a I think she has made her point. While I am on my feet, quid pro quo. The quid pro quo should be that if they may I also say to the hon. Gentleman that he has been wish to remain overseas territories and benefit from speaking for quite a long time? This is a short debate the Crown, the Union flag and all that protection, we and a lot of people want to get in, including, funnily should be able to expect their banking systems and enough, the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt). company registries to comply with accepted international norms of transparency and accountability. John Mann: Madam Deputy Speaker, my speech was I am conscious that a number of people want to take already at an end, save for the final sentence. I did not part in this debate. What has been put forward wish to hog the debate with illustrations and proposals. this afternoon is substantially a no-brainer. When my 1141 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1142 Crime Crime hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary replies to the debate, The problem with that is that the Internet Watch I hope he will make it clear that what has been put Foundation is hugely strapped for cash and unable to forward has the full support of the Government, as I deal with all the alerts it receives. It is worried, because a am sure it does. As the hon. Member for Bassetlaw survey that it undertook has suggested that, although made clear, the challenge for us will be ensuring that 1.5 million people have seen child abuse images, only other G8 countries support us. However, there is absolutely 40,000 reports have been made to the organisation. It is no reason why we should not take a global lead on calling on the public to report more, in the interests of this—and be proud to take a lead—while the UK has child protection, but it requires more resources to enable the presidency of the G8. it to respond. Furthermore, once members of the public start to respond, they are not going to be able to distinguish 3.47 pm between the different categories of image—illegal, obscene and indecent—and they will report everything that disgusts Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am pleased them. to have the opportunity to speak in this debate and am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw We have a similar situation with the Child Exploitation (John Mann) for persuading the Backbench Business and Online Protection Centre—CEOP—which is the Committee to hold it. I am extremely concerned, as are part of the police force that deals with these issues. It all hon. Members, about the morality of cheating in the believes that 60,000 people in this country are downloading tax system and, as my hon. Friend said, the economic child abuse images, yet its resources are so limited that it distortions it creates. was able to secure only 1,570 convictions last year. At the same time, the companies that distribute that material Ordinary small and medium-sized enterprises cannot are not paying the taxes that would help properly to cheat in that way, and the collapse in the high street is resource the police. I have met representatives of those being exacerbated by the tax advantages enjoyed by the companies and written to Ministers about these issues. internet companies that facilitate online shopping. Indeed, I am still waiting for a reply from Ministers. the international internet companies are among the most significant offenders when it comes to tax avoidance. Returning to the business model that Facebook uses Their business model is built on an apparently free offer to generate its revenues, I want to explain a further to consumers, but the services are paid for by advertising, connection between the two kinds of crime. A whistleblower which is targeted through the collection of personal recently informed us that advertisements were appearing data from consumers based on the cookie system. I alongside the indecent images of children. They were have secured a separate debate in a fortnight’s time on advertising the services of a large number of household- the internet companies’ use of personal data. Today I name companies, including PayPal, John Lewis, Procter wish to say something about their business model and & Gamble, EE, Hewlett Packard, Betfred, Bing, Johnson its implications. & Johnson, Google, BSkyB and Western Union. Facebook has now agreed to do a manual sweep to remove the A Public Accounts Committee report found that advertisements from the sites, because the advertisers between 2006 and 2011, Google paid the equivalent of do not want to finance them and do not want to be seen $16 million in income tax in this country on revenues to finance them. It would be helpful if we had public estimated at $18 billion. It claimed that advertising sales statements from those companies on their views on were being made in Ireland, when in fact the two that, and on whether they are happy to have so much contracting parties were in the UK. advertising being channelled to other organisations that Facebook, another US-based company, has 33 million are not paying their proper taxes. users in the UK, with 25 million people visiting the site each day. Its revenues from advertising are estimated at Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I might have misheard around £170 million a year, but last year it reported her, but it sounded to me as if the hon. Lady was sales of only £20.4 million. Using that figure for its making serious allegations about John Lewis. Will she sales, it reported a pre-tax loss of £13.9 million in 2011, please reconfirm them for the benefit of Government enabling it to pay just £238,000 in tax last year. The Members? position with Twitter is even worse, if that is possible to imagine. It did not even submit any accounts last year. Helen Goodman rose— I want to set the behaviour of those companies, in relation to their corporate structures and tax performances, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. in the context of the cost to society and the public purse Before the hon. Lady returns to her point, I am sure she that they are creating. Everyone agrees that online child is going to tell us how what she is talking about connects abuse is a serious crime. We in Parliament, the public with financial crime. We are discussing corporate structures, and the industry are committed to its eradication. The tax evasion, money laundering and financial crime. The Internet Watch Foundation is a fantastic organisation crime she was describing was serious, but she said there that takes down sites that carry child abuse images. It is was a link between it and financial crime, and I would a membership organisation for the industry, so we were quite like to hear what it is. all shocked to hear of the very small contributions that the industrialists were making to its work. Until a month ago, Google was donating £20,000 to the Internet Helen Goodman: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Watch Foundation. In recent weeks, it has upped its Let me respond to the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie contribution to £250,000 a year for four years, and the Elphicke). The companies that I listed have been other media organisations have collectively offered a inadvertently caught up in financing in this particular further £250,000 a year for the same period. I learned way, but the question for them is whether they have this week that Facebook makes a contribution of only made it clear, publicly, that they do not wish to be £10,000 a year. financing the distribution. 1143 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1144 Crime Crime [Helen Goodman] into aid, we need to make sure that the money is used effectively and that there is a clean-up. It has been noted In response to your point, Madam Deputy Speaker, that a third of the world’s poorest 1 billion people live in the problem is that we have a system through which resource-rich countries, but as a result of weak governance money is hoovered up in one way and can then be used and widespread corruption, finances do not always reach to finance any other kind of crime—the crimes that I Government accounts. In fact, many of those resource-rich have described, but also those mentioned by my hon. countries have been looted by the very politicians who are Friend the Member for Bassetlaw. What we do not have meant to be running them and developing their economies. from these organisations is any proper accountability It is primarily companies that are used to move dirty that would allow us to get to the bottom of the issues money. The World Bank reviewed 213 large cases of and tackle them properly. It is extremely problematic corruption between 1980 and 2010, more than 70% of that we do not have international agreements about which were found to have relied on anonymous shell how to deal with these internet companies when it companies. Companies registered in the United States comes to their taxes and their other behaviour. Although topped the list, but the United Kingdom and its Crown it is true that tax avoidance is a scourge and tax evasion dependencies and overseas territories came second. is a crime, the industry’s use of these sites helps to It seems to be terribly easy to set up anonymous promote other kinds of crime. I believe that there is a companies and trusts. It is very cheap to create complex serious cultural issue about these companies that must corporate structures, and the practice of using “nominees” be addressed. does not help at all. I hope that the Minister will emphasise the need to put beneficial share ownership Charlie Elphicke: I thank the hon. Lady for giving into the public domain. A “many eyes” procedure would way again. I have used privilege in this place to name ensure that company ownership was subjected to continuous and shame financial wickedness and, indeed, industrial tests. I agree with the hon. Member for Bassetlaw that scale tax avoidance. I have always done so, however, in we should not just leave it to HMRC. Beneficial owners an attempt to provide evidence. The hon. Lady has are individuals—living people, real-life human beings. made some serious allegations in respect of which I am We are not talking about yet another company and yet concerned she has not provided us with any evidence. another trust. The financial action task force, the intergovernmental Helen Goodman: The hon. Gentleman may not be body that sets global anti-money laundering standards aware that a whistleblower showed me a large number and makes recommendations, has said that the system of pages on which I saw some of these advertisements. does not work, and that it is much too easy to avoid due The point I am trying to make to him is that the diligence. In many countries, company service providers companies are inadvertently drawn into this through are all too willing to flout the law. A large number of the targeting and retargeting of advertisements. Their the world’s major economies are ineffective in preventing money is being used to finance the internet companies companies from being misused by money launderers. according to the business model that operates, so if they Six of the G8 countries and 18 of the 27 European Union do not want to be involved, they must take steps to member states are listed as being “not compliant” or avoid doing so. only “partially compliant”with the new recommendations To offer the hon. Member for Dover some comfort, on beneficial ownership. Marks & Spencer, for example, took the view that it Many countries do not require banks, lawyers or really wanted action to be taken—and it took it publicly, company service providers to identify beneficial owners which had a tremendous impact on Facebook and on of corporate clients. The penalty in the United Kingdom what Facebook was doing. The other companies have and the United States for having a fake identity in the not yet come out as clearly as Marks & Spencer did. form of a passport is up to 10 years in prison, yet I had better not speak for too long. This is an anyone who is willing to pay a small amount—I think it important debate, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend is £200 or £300—can create a fake ID through a company the Member for Bassetlaw for opening it up. I am very and then use the company to hide behind, and the concerned, however, about what the debate is uncovering. penalties for that are very small. One way of preventing abuse of anonymous companies 3.58 pm is for countries to require all information about beneficial owners, the names of all people behind trusts and Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): As I said earlier, I thank the foundations, to be put into the public domain. It is hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) for bringing essential for such information to be public, rather than this issue to everyone’s attention and for providing an being accessible only to the police and other law enforcement opportunity for us to debate it this afternoon. He has agencies. There is no interrelationship between most of already raised the effect that anonymous shell companies these countries, and they cannot carry out the necessary have on facilitating the corruption that keeps many tests. If only HMRC or the police can gain access to poor countries poor. Hidden company ownership may our information when fraud is suspected, it will not be be a particular problem. I welcome the efforts of the possible for us to check other countries’ systems, or for Prime Minister during his G8 presidency, particularly them to check ours. his calling on the EU and the G8 to work together to It is cheap to put beneficial ownership into the public break through the walls of corporate secrecy and to domain. It has been suggested that 99% of companies ensure much more transparency. that are registered in this country are family companies Any move that can clean this whole business up will or micro, small or medium-sized businesses. There is a have a major impact on the world’s efforts to tackle clear relationship between the ownership of companies poverty. If we are to commit regularly to having a and individuals. Only 1% of companies registered in substantial percentage—0.7%—of moneys being put this country have a complex financial structure. 1145 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1146 Crime Crime We have said that banks could be charged with greater The Prime Minister defended that feeble result by duties to ensure that they are more compliant and claiming that little can be done without international rigorous in exercising their duties to ensure that money agreement and that it takes time to build that, but that laundering does not take place, but they have a conflict is not true. Of course the best result would be an in that they stand to make very big profits in accepting internationally agreed set of rules, but even in the the business of rich and dodgy customers. Our anti-money absence of that there is a great deal that Britain can and laundering laws sound fairly stringent, but, as has been should do. First, as a number of Members have said, said already, they bear down heavily on smaller companies the UK controls 10 Crown dependencies and overseas and it is the big, professional organisations that are territories, which collectively embrace over one fifth, I trying to launder money through the system on a major think, of all the world’s tax havens. Most of them have scale and that can do that quite easily. signed up in principle—[Interruption.] Well, we shall There is little personal responsibility from individual see, but they have certainly signed up to the proposal for bankers—HSBC is a strong example. In 2012, it agreed tax information exchange, and it is now within the to pay a record $1.9 billion fine levied by the US purview of the British Government to enforce that authorities after admitting that its anti-money laundering proposal, if there is any reneging or backsliding, by the systems had failed; it laundered hundreds of millions of simple expedient of refusing to recognise any financial dollars at least for drugs cartels, terrorists and pariah transactions emanating from those areas if there is any states such as Mexico. The Senate sub-committee that failure to secure full compliance. carried out the investigation described HSBC’s cultures That will generate a great deal of resistance, not least as “’pervasively polluted”. from the tax havens themselves, but also I suspect During that time, over 47,000 people died in Mexico particularly from the big UK banks, which are the main at the hands of drug traffickers, so it is important that users of these tax haven facilities. Since the Tory party we deal swiftly and effectively with such companies. The continues to get more than half of its income every year penalties could be toughened greatly. As I said earlier, from the banks—[Interruption.] There is no need to we should make individual people on the board responsible roll the eyes or shake the head, as that is an important for looking after that part of the business. However, I fact, so facing down the banks on this important issue accept the point made by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw will test the Government’s resolve. that every bank executive should be responsible and I therefore want to ask the Minister the following made liable for the damage that they cause and that question, which I hope he will answer: will he assure the there should be a rigorous system of penalties, which House that the Government will enforce these tax should include the option of imprisonment. information exchanges with the tax havens they control? I do not want to go on too much longer. The most I agree he cannot do that without international agreement important point is that bringing in a public register of in the other havens, but he can control these ones. beneficial ownership will not involve a huge amount Alternatively, are we simply going to find that the Prime of red tape. The point has been made already that a Minister’s fine words, which we all agree about, will just number of individuals are clear that it would be easy for fade away in a puff of smoke after he has had his PR this country to make such a move. I cannot stress day in the sun? enough how important it is to small businesses to What makes the Chancellor’s remonstrations about ensure that everyone gets a fair deal, that taxes are paid tax avoidance being immoral seem perverse is that he and that there is absolute clarity when money passes himself has now emerged as the arch proponent of tax back and forth across the world. avoidance. He is changing the controlled foreign company rules from 1 January next year to allow any multinational 4.7 pm company with a subsidiary in a tax haven—and as the Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) Minister knows very well, 98% of those companies (Lab): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member do have a subsidiary in a tax haven—to reduce their for Bassetlaw (John Mann) not only for obtaining corporation tax liability from 23% to a mere 5.5%. the debate and for making another strong speech on the Given the boast of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor subject, but in particular for his relentless campaigning about cracking down hard on corporation tax avoidance, on the issue of financial crime in all its forms, including that is breathtaking hypocrisy. The message is, “Don’t money laundering, tax avoidance and evasion. That is worry about artificial tax avoidance. You needn’t do what I want to concentrate on. anything about that, because I am going to serve it up to you on a plate.” As the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) said, at the G8 summit, the Prime Minister made a great media Then the Government went even further. They have blitz of his supposed crackdown on corporate tax avoidance. put forward the pro-tax avoidance proposal of the He tried to get UK-controlled tax havens to sign up to patent box, a wheeze whereby any patented process an OECD agreement on providing tax information. He applying to any part of an enterprise, however trivial or also tried to secure a worldwide standard on automatic minor, not only secures a reduction in corporation tax tax information transfer, to get the G8 countries to to 10%, but applies to the entire enterprise. Frankly, reveal the identity of shell companies and to help developing the more the Government go on in this way, pushing countries to get their rightful entitlement to tax. All corporation tax almost to zero, the more tax avoidance those are extremely worthy objectives and no one in the fiddles become redundant, because the Government are House would demur from any of them, but all he doing it for them. Perhaps that is the Government’s achieved—it is achievement, rather than aspiration, aim. that matters when one is Prime Minister—was a bland statement in favour of the principle of tax information Charlie Elphicke: Will the right hon. Gentleman give transfer, without any actual means of enforcement. way? 1147 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1148 Crime Crime Mr Meacher: The hon. Gentleman was a tax lawyer, Mr Meacher: I am glad to hear it, but the Minister I think. He is also a very mischievous Member of this and his Government will have to prove that in the House, but I will still give way to him. outcomes that we see over the months ahead. He makes an important point, but there is a perception that if we Charlie Elphicke: I thank the right hon. Gentleman opt for a rule that is limited to dealing with the worst for his kind remarks about me. It is all very well for him kind of tax avoidance, it suggests that the rest is rather to have a go at this Government, but he will recall that less important in the Government’s mind; I cannot see under his Government revenues from corporation tax the point of having a GAAR if one is also going to rose by 6% while revenues from income tax, paid by “include” other abusive tax procedures, about which ordinary folk in this country, rose by getting on for there is equal concern. I am sure that debate is coming 100%. Does he think his own Government did such a along, but I am glad that he said what he did and we great job? shall certainly hold him to it. The GAAR could actually make things worse and, even at this late stage, I ask the Mr Meacher: I do not think that the previous Government seriously to reconsider whether they should Government did a great job. They did an appalling job not take over my Bill. on corporation tax, and the hon. Gentleman might be pleased to know that I said so at the time and I have The Government could and should recognise that always taken that view. The hon. Member for Bristol their strategy to deter tax avoidance, which has been in West (Stephen Williams) raised the issue of capital use for many years, including under the previous gains tax with me when I was last speaking, and I think Government, via the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes— that that tax should be at the same level as income tax. DOTAS—is of limited value and is inadequate on its Corporation tax is another matter, of course, but it own. It requires those who are designing and trying to should be well above the levels the Government are now sell these schemes to inform HMRC in advance about proposing. each new scheme they introduce. I understand that something over 100 new schemes have been disclosed in The Government can and should restructure the whole each of the past four years under the DOTAS proposals. approach on tax avoidance by switching the onus of That shows the industrial scale—I think that was the proof away from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs word that the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) and on to the potential perpetrators. That is exactly himselfused—of tax avoidance going on in the City. what my General Anti Tax-Avoidance Principle Bill was intended to do. It would have made it clear that any DOTAS still leaves two problems. First, it can take scheme whose primary purpose was to avoid tax, rather HMRC many years to defeat any of the schemes if it than being any genuine economic transaction, would be goes to the courts and, secondly, some of those promoting invalid in law and struck down. In order to discourage such schemes will go to great lengths to avoid disclosure. perpetrators of this attempt to bend the will of Parliament, Even if they are detected and taken to court, the penalty there would be a sizeable penalty for attempting to is often something derisory like £5,000 or so. Those subvert that will. My Bill had only a 10-minute showing involved in such schemes have every incentive to fail to on the Floor of the House, thanks to Tory filibustering comply with what the Government are seeking. of the prior Bill on that day, so perhaps I might take this HMRC’s working definition of tax avoidance, which opportunity to ask the Minister: does he accept the is often seen as a rather nebulous concept, is, rather general anti-tax-avoidance principle? If he does not, sensibly, what are his reasons for rejecting it? I think he will say “using the tax law to get a tax advantage that Parliament never that the Government are putting up their alternative—the intended”. so-called GAAR or general anti-abuse rule—but that I think that is extremely sensible, so why can it not be really does not meet the ticket. I wish to say why, and I cast in statute? Why can it not be laid down as the hope that he will listen to why the Government’s GAAR principle by which the Government and HMRC will is really no alternative. test such schemes? That would see off the tax avoidance The GAAR is based on a report by Graham Aaronson, industry far more effectively than the soft touch of who was always a representative of the tax-avoidance DOTAS. We are coming to the same view on tax avoidance industry and never of the tax-compliance will of Parliament. as we did on the banks, and unless persons as opposed I accept that the GAAR will have some effect, because to organisations are held responsible—if need be, in it outlaws egregiously aggressive and abusive tax avoidance, extreme cases, by criminal sanctions—very little will but of course the implication of that is that it legitimises happen. If a person were subject to a penalty that was a rather less extravagant tax avoidance. multiple of the tax charge—perhaps two or three times the charge, depending on the blatancy and gravity of The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David the offence—for seeking to pervert the will of Parliament, Gauke) indicated dissent. that would act as a serious deterrent. Mr Meacher: Perhaps we should have some debate Charlie Elphicke: Will the right hon. Gentleman give about that. way? Mr Gauke: Let me put the right hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest on this by saying that the GAAR does not Mr Meacher: I think that others might wish to speak, do that. We accept that the GAAR is directed at egregious but I am sure that I will carry on the conversation with tax avoidance. It is an additional tool, but there will still the hon. Gentleman outside and on other occasions. be targeted anti-avoidance rules and other measures Finally, corporation tax is, as everyone recognises, so that the Government take. I want to make it very clear riddled with loopholes as a result of the evolution of that we are not saying that if something falls outside the the international economy and corporation structures GAAR, there is no problem with it. over the past 30 to 40 years that it urgently needs 1149 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1150 Crime Crime wholesale restructuring. The drive towards territorial themselves quickly and cheaply. I therefore disagreed taxation must be abandoned and replaced by unitary with the hon. Gentleman when he talked about making taxation by which multinationals are taxed according to it more expensive and complicated to set up a company. where their genuine economic activity occurred and not Only a year or so ago, I set up a company, and it was where they pretend it occurred to collect the huge a delight to be able to do so online and quickly. There windfalls of transfer pricing. are a few hoops to jump through—one has to prove Surely the most appropriate corporation tax base is one’s identity, for example—but I thought the right either free cash flow or economic rent—the amount, checks and balances were in place. If we want to create in other words, a business earns in excess of its cost of wealth in this country, as we all do because that is capital. There are several ways of doing that: removing where our taxation comes from, enabling businesses to interest deductibility, introducing an allowance for the be set up quickly is a good thing. I hope that the hon. cost of corporate equity or shifting the tax base towards Gentleman forgives me for disagreeing with him on that tax flow and away from accounting profit. point. I have tried to offer several positive proposals. I realise Like my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy that it is possible to make a lot of pejorative remarks, (Guto Bebb), I am a member of the Public Accounts which are probably just, about the performance of this Committee. We have been going through report after Government and the previous Government in tackling report on a series of corporate structures that were set the problem, but I have tried to be as positive as I can. up in a slightly interesting way to avoid paying tax, but Unless the Government adopt at least some of the to do so legitimately. We have been able to show where proposals, their claims to have serious intentions about tax has not been paid or where people think tax should cracking down on today’s enormous cancer of corporate be paid, but it is only a thought, only a process. The tax avoidance will be seen as the pretence that, sadly, companies that have come before us have all been able I sometimes think it is. to say to us, “We do exactly the right thing both by the law in this country and by international law.” If we are Several hon. Members rose— serious about tackling this problem, we need to engage on an international stage. That is why I welcome very Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I much the Prime Minister’s words and deeds at the G8 remind the two remaining Members who wish to speak summit and what I expect will happen in future. that we are running out of time. So that we can hear the Front-Bench speakers, may I ask them each to take a The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South maximum of six minutes? I will not put a limit on the East (Mr McFadden) mentioned the complexity of clock, as they are both experienced Members who can modern-day banking. In fact, now that banks are so judge it for themselves to enable us to hear the wind-ups. interlinked, there is an odd sort of transparency about banking transactions. Banks can make themselves as 4.24 pm complicated as they like, but with modern technology and the internet—something the hon. Member for Bishop Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Thank you Auckland (Helen Goodman) was moaning about—comes for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. a degree of transparency that, should we wish it, could It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for clear up a number of issues behind the scenes. Again, Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher). I am glad to however, that would have to be negotiated on an be doing so on a day when he has been very positive. I international basis. would hate to follow him on a day when he was being negative—it would be like having a dementor circling Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Does the room. It is always a pleasure to see him in this House, my hon. Friend agree that transparency about ownership, though, especially when he has so many to choose from. particularly the ultimate beneficial owner, of a company I wanted to take part in the debate to do two things. should be welcomed? For many years, the identity of First, I wanted to set out that the vast majority of the real owners of some football clubs, such as Coventry businesses established in our country do the right thing City and, previously, Leeds United, was hidden in dummy by tax and the right thing by corporate structure. They companies registered offshore. really do work hard to stay within the rules, and they, like everyone else, are shocked when they see other Chris Heaton-Harris: I agree. Coventry City is a corporate structures not doing the same. perfect example. It announced today that it is moving in Secondly, I wanted to congratulate and support the with Northampton Town, a club that is local to me. I hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). It comes as a am sure fans would love to know what went on behind bit of a shock to me to say that, but I know that he has the corporate structure there. worked hard on this subject. I do not agree with him on I have one wish, which is to ensure that we get some everything, but he does raise a number of valid points; sort of transparency behind these corporate structures. he states them and debates them well and they need to Members will know that I am a big campaigner against have a good airing. I look forward to continuing the onshore wind farms. Many of the developers have an dialogue with him. unbelievably complex corporate structure that sucks Before I got involved in this political charabanc, money—subsidy, actually—out of this country and away I was a small business man. I much preferred running a to far-flung lands through a number of countries and a small business and being able to do something positive number of companies. to sometimes sitting through debates and ultimately There is a job to be done. I welcome this debate, I achieving nothing. We remain a nation of small businesses congratulate the hon. Member for Bassetlaw on securing and we should encourage them, so I believe it is important it, and I look forward to working with him and others that we allow small businesses to set up and establish in the House to get the right job done. 1151 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1152 Crime Crime 4.30 pm found “no evidence” that khat, made from the leaves and shoots of a shrub cultivated in the horn of Africa Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to and the Arabian peninsula, was directly linked with follow the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton- serious or organised crime. The problem is that once Harris) and I associate myself with his remarks about these drugs are banned, they go underground and the my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), drugs barons are able to launder even more money. who is an assiduous campaigner on this and so many other issues. Mr Jim Cunningham: The hon. Member for Daventry My small contribution will be about the way in which (Chris Heaton-Harris) has raised the issue of Coventry proceeds of crime have found their way into the financial football club. I do not want to go too far down that sector, and I will seek assurances from the Minister that road, except to say that the parent company should be the Government are doing everything they can to deal investigated. It set up two sub-companies, one of which with the issue of proceeds of crime within our financial went into administration and was then given by the structures. Some £675 million is owed by 178 criminals administrator to the other company. It is a ludicrous who were each ordered to pay back £1 million or more situation for the people of Coventry to find themselves after their conviction. Prosecutors are unable to force in: the fans are up in arms, they do not know where they repayment by 45 offenders whose debts to the taxpayer are going to play next season and all sorts of threats are total £225 million. Clearly, the law as currently written being made. and the existing structures are not sufficiently able to deal with the way in which these proceeds are kept by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. the Mr Bigs who, having committed horrendous crimes, Before the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith are able to continue with their life after prison and are Vaz) responds to that point, I remind Mr Cunningham not asked to pay back what they owe. that the courtesies of the House indicate that he should I am glad that the Government are proposing changes not enter a debate at the end and immediately intervene, to the law. I recently had a letter from both the Metropolitan because he has not been present at any stage during the Police Commissioner and the Director of Public debate. Prosecutions about a wish to examine default sentences, changing the definition of “confiscation” in the Proceeds Mr Cunningham rose— of Crime Act 2002, amending the Bail Act 1976 to prevent absconding—once somebody is out of prison, Madam Deputy Speaker: We will not discuss this there is no way in which they can be made to pay this now, but I am sure Mr Cunningham will remember it money—implementing the EU Council framework for the future. decisions on the execution of orders freezing property or evidence, and making sure that agencies work together Keith Vaz: I thought that my hon. Friend the Member so that if someone has committed an offence, they do for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) was going to tell not rush out of the country because the Passport Office me that the directors of Coventry City were chewing has given them a passport. khat. I did not realise that he wanted to make another On money laundering, as the House knows, 85% of point. drugs profits are earned by distributors in the United In conclusion, I say to the Minister: let us look at the States or Europe. The current estimate is that global proceeds of crime and the way in which financial structures drugs profits are £380 billion, the majority of which protect them, and let us use effective action through the enters the financial system. Antonio Maria Costa, the structures of Government and the financial agencies to former head of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, has try to make sure that the Mr Bigs pay back the money said: they have stolen. “I cannot think of one bank in the world that has not been penetrated by mafia money.” 4.35 pm Banks with British bases, such as Coutts and HSBC, Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) have been found guilty of money laundering. (Lab): In beginning this debate, my hon. Friend the As the Home Affairs Committee said recently, until Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) pointed out that these companies hear the rattling of handcuffs in their the responsibilities of the two Front Benchers relate to boardrooms, they will not take seriously the issue of different Departments. The reason why I am speaking drugs money within our financial systems. Indeed, we on behalf of the Opposition is that it is our view that recommended new legislation to extend the personal too many of the matters under discussion are crimes, criminal liability of those who hold the most senior should be crimes, should be prosecuted and are not positions in banks and are found to have been involved being prosecuted at the moment. My presence underlines in money laundering. As my hon. Friend the Member the emphasis that the Opposition put on that. for Bassetlaw said, it is hoped that the new Financial We welcome the fact that tax evasion was on the Conduct Authority will be much tougher than the Financial agenda at the G8 and the Prime Minister is right that we Services Authority, which in our view did not do enough need to pierce the corporate veil. Lack of transparency to deal with the issue. enables criminals to hide behind shell companies and Yesterday the Home Secretary reclassified khat as a launder the proceeds of crime. In our view, however, the class C drug because she believes that sales of it have Prime Minister left the heavy lobbying until too late and entered our financial systems and fund Islamic extremist the international commitment to breaking down corporate groups such as al-Shabaab. In January the Advisory secrecy was weak. In fact, as my right hon. Friend the Council on the Misuse of Drugs said there was “insufficient Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) evidence” that khat caused health problems. The panel has said, it was feeble. The G8 members only agreed to 1153 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1154 Crime Crime consider national registries of the beneficial ownership The US Department of Justice fined HSBC £1.25 billion of companies, which, to be frank, is very little commitment for money laundering. I am not aware that the UK at all. authorities have taken any action on that, beyond requiring What is the Government’s commitment to that registry? an improved monitoring regime. Of course, the chairman Will it be public? The hon. Member for Banbury (Sir of HSBC at the time became the Minister for Trade and Tony Baldry) has said that the Prime Minister is on Investment in this Government and continued to be so record as saying that he wants it to be public, but what until recently. does that mean? Will it be rigorous? Whether it is LIBOR rigging, money laundering or sanctions evasion, the UK has been slow to investigate Every legal entity is ultimately controlled by a natural British banks. When it has punished them, the fines person—somebody who lives and breathes and who have been dwarfed by those imposed by the US. For can go to jail if they do things wrong. Will there be a example, Barclays was fined £101 million in the US for requirement that the information registered on beneficial LIBOR rigging, whereas the Financial Services Authority ownership always includes a natural person? What penalties in the UK fined it £60 million and the Serious Fraud Office will there be for failing to supply the required information? is still investigating. The SFO prosecuted only 20 cases Will there be an obligation to record the owner of last year and convicted 14 individuals. In the past two bearer shares where the owner is not registered and the years there has not been a single corporate prosecution. issuing firm does not track subsequent transfers of ownership? Will there be an obligation for companies Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is making an excellent that use nominee directors to reveal on whose behalf point, which reflects what was said in the recent Home those directors are working? Affairs Committee report. However, there is an issue We are told that the Government are reviewing all of with the absence of personal liability, not just corporate this, but it seems to me that there is plenty of wiggle liability. It is individuals who made the decisions. room. Will there be an obligation on the part of the registry to carry out due diligence on the information it Emily Thornberry: I am getting to that. I am grateful receives? In practical terms, will Companies House have to my right hon. Friend. the resources to do that? Past studies have revealed that Is it any wonder that KPMG has just reported that in Companies House has not even had sufficient resources the UK, fraud cases totalling more than £500 million to routinely check company directors against a list of were recorded in the first half of 2013, which is up by disqualified persons. more than a quarter on the previous year? Will Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs have the We need a change of culture in our law enforcement resources to investigate? HMRC currently faces £2 billion agencies. We must equip them with the tools and resources of funding cuts this Parliament, leading to a further that they need to get on the front foot. Under English 10,000 job cuts. Will the Crown Prosecution Service, law, companies are criminally liable only if it can be also cut by more than 27%, have the resources to proved that a director was personally involved in the prosecute? Will the Government strengthen the regulation wrongdoing. That is an extremely high threshold—a of corporate service providers that set up sham companies problem to which the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa and straw-men directors? We do not know. Will we be Munt) referred. told, and if so, when? There is a good case for holding companies vicariously What we do know is that a future Labour Government liable for their employees’ economic crimes, unless they will bring an end to the era of tax smoke and mirrors. can demonstrate that they had adequate compliance As the shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the procedures. The last Labour Government did that in Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), and the relation to bribery with the Bribery Act 2010. We want shadow Exchequer Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member to build on that, but this Government want to water it for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), down. They say, for some reason, that rules against have set out in Labour’s policy review on corporate tax, bribery are red tape. That stopping people bribing one the Government should ensure that HMRC has the another can be seen as red tape is beyond belief. power, resources and capacity it needs. They should If we change the law on corporate responsibility, we also explore how their general anti-abuse rule can be may see an increase in the number of companies that strengthened. The Government should also deliver are prosecuted, so we must have a penalty structure that internationally agreed reporting rules so that large is worthy of receiving them. The highest fraud fine to multinational companies have to publish the key pieces result from an SFO prosecution is £2.2 million. The of information that people need to assess the amount of highest fine clinched by the US Department of Justice is tax they pay. larger than $3 billion. Why do we not introduce a We also need to look at the channels through which system in which sentences are based on a percentage of the laundered money goes. Of the 17 banks analysed by the company’s turnover over the past three years? the FCA, half were found not to have proper processes Although the SFO’s problems are not entirely down to prevent money laundering. Four of those were UK to under-resourcing, resources are important because banks. I was disappointed that the FCA did not name these crimes are expensive to investigate. Last year, the those banks and have written to it asking it to do so. SFO’s budget was £34 million, compared with £40 million in 2009-10. In 2014-15, it will fall to only £30 million. It Many Members have referred to last year’s US Senate is so short of money that it has to go cap in hand to report, which found that HSBC had been used to launder the Treasury whenever it wants to take over a major the money of Mexican drug lords. It called HSBC a prosecution. That at least gives the impression that the conduit for Chancellor has a secret veto on whether fraud investigations “drug kingpins and rogue nations”. take place. 1155 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1156 Crime Crime [Emily Thornberry] in the Chamber, not having been present at any point during the debate, do not show the best courtesy to the The US approach of topping up the funds of fraud House. I hope that all Members will bear that in mind. prosecutors is much more appealing. Where possible, confiscated assets are returned to the victims. The proceeds Sir Edward Garnier: On a point of order, Madam from the many cases in which the victims cannot be Deputy Speaker. If I have caused any offence, I apologise. traced are poured into a central fund. Each year, teams The reason I addressed the hon. Member for Islington of prosecutors bid for a portion of that fund for asset South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) was that she tracing and law enforcement investigations. We have and I have a joint interest in the matter. I am sure the beginnings of such a system in the UK. We could she did not take offence. extend that and put large fines or at least part of them into the pool as well. In these austere times, we need to Madam Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Sir Edward, but explore such alternative means of funding. you are continuing the debate. Your point is on the record, but we are now eating into the Minister’s time. I Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): understand that he does not mind, so I call Emily The hon. Lady is eloquently describing the failure of Thornberry to conclude her speech. the tripartite regulatory regime that her Government put in place. She is correct that the fines in the UK are a Emily Thornberry: I am grateful to the hon. and fraction of those in the US. A further failure is that the learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) fines have rewarded other banks. This Government and appreciate his expertise in the matter, but I actually have ensured that the fines that are paid do not reduce did say that immediately before he came into the Chamber. the levy so that banks no longer profit from the wrongdoing I am glad that there is now cross-party agreement, and of other banks. That was the regime that her Government I urge him to ensure that his party’s Front Benchers put in place. adopt my ideas. Now is the time to move on in relation to fraud, and I believe that companies should be held Emily Thornberry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, liable for the fraudulent activity of individuals, building but in the time I have available, I would like to look to on the Bribery Act. That is a way forward, and if we can the future and consider the best method that we have agree on it, then great—let’s do it. for solving the current problems. I am happy to talk to If the Government are committed to a crackdown on him at some length outside the debate, because I am crime, why have they left it to Labour to amend the committed to the issue and will be interested to hear his Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill, which will point of view. come before the House again on Monday? Why have It seems to me that one good way in which the assets they not tabled amendments? We understood that the in question can be used, instead of lowering the levy, is Prime Minister was committed to introducing a crime to put them into a pool that prosecutors can use in of reckless management of a financial institution, so future. That would help to pump up what we are doing. why have the Government not tabled such an amendment? That seems to be a way forward, and I am putting it Why do we need to do it? It seems odd. We are concerned before the House today to get some sensible responses. that, although the Prime Minister is happy to make pledges when everyone is watching, he hopes that when Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): Will the nobody is noticing he can carry on and do nothing. hon. Lady give way? It seems to us that an offence of reckless banking needs to do more than deliver symbolic sacrifices after Emily Thornberry: Unfortunately I am running out the event. We need managers to be held liable if they of time, but I would like to hear from the hon. and turn a blind eye to those who are committing crime. learned Gentleman briefly. They should have a responsibility to monitor what happens. No single person brings a bank to its knees Sir Edward Garnier: The hon. Lady urged us to look and no single person should be responsible for UBS, to the future. Does she agree that one thing that we need Société Générale or Barings, whatever some may want to consider with reasonable urgency is an alteration in us to believe. There are further people who are also how corporate criminal liability is described in law? At responsible, and we need to ensure that the law allows the moment, we have the Victorian “directing mind” for other people to be prosecuted. Nowhere is that more principle, which is not really appropriate for vast apparent than in the Government’s record on basic international companies. Does she agree that we need to economic crime such as the failure to ensure that people Americanise the system— are paid the minimum wage. In the past three years, only two bosses have been prosecuted for that, and Helen Goodman: She’s just said that. If you’d been workplace inspections have halved in the past 12 months. here, you’d have heard it. It seems to us that it is about time the Government started taking seriously economic crime of all types, Sir Edward Garnier: It is always so lovely to hear the including people not being paid a basic wage. hon. Lady, but I am actually addressing the shadow Attorney-General. 4.48 pm The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Gauke): I congratulate the hon. Member for Bassetlaw Before the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (John Mann) on securing the debate. It has been wide- (Emily Thornberry) responds, I point out again that ranging, but I will focus my remarks, at least to begin interventions made by people who have only just arrived with, on the issue that he focused on most, which was 1157 Corporate Structures and Financial 4 JULY 2013 Corporate Structures and Financial 1158 Crime Crime company misuse. If I have time, I will address other issues enforcement bodies to trace company misuse. Secondly, that were raised, such as tax avoidance, although to be we will require that information to be held centrally at fair we had a debate on that a week ago. Companies House and made available, at a minimum, I am pleased to address company misuse because, as to law enforcement and tax authorities. Again, that will my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony enable law enforcement and tax administrations to track Baldry) rightly pointed out, the Prime Minister has down beneficial ownership information much more quickly. demonstrated leadership on this issue on the international It will also help us develop better working relations with stage. The Government are committed to tackling illicit our international counterparts, by responding to their activity and the misuse of corporate vehicles to facilitate requests more quickly during cross-border investigations. such activity, and we are well aware of the impact such To address the point raised by my hon. Friend the things have on the UK and the global economy. Such Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), it is important that law misuse is made possible because companies can be used enforcement agencies and tax authorities co-operate on to hide who is really in control and who is the beneficial such matters. owner. Hidden beneficial ownership to facilitate criminal We will also consider whether that information should activity is a long-standing issue, and international standards be made publicly accessible. Although there would be have proved difficult to implement effectively for many significant advantages to such an act, such as enabling jurisdictions. For that reason, the Prime Minister put greater scrutiny of the accuracy of the information and tackling that issue at the heart of the UK’s G8 agenda. I allowing investors and others to understand better with am sorry that one or two right hon. and hon. Members whom they are doing business, there would also be have been less than generous in recognising that. legitimate concerns about individual confidentiality and whether the information would always be used in the Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): At Lough right way. The case of companies involved in animal Erne it was agreed that each of the G8 countries would testing raises an interesting point. Hon. Members may come forward with a national action plan for implementing be interested to know that we have committed to consult the agreements made there, which for the UK will on this issue. hopefully include the Crown dependencies. Have the Thirdly, we will be looking at what measures can be Crown dependencies come forward with their draft taken to mitigate the misuse of nominee—or sham— plans, and do they include commitments to publish directors and bearer shares. The fact that both are registers of beneficial ownership? currently allowed to exist is inconsistent with our desire to know who really owns and controls UK companies, Mr Gauke: It is perhaps worth saying a word or two so the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about the Crown dependencies because they have received will be issuing a public discussion paper on these precise criticism during the course of the debate. There is issues shortly, setting out a number of options for reform. nothing illegal about an international structure, especially I turn now to the issue of Companies House, which in a globally integrated economy, but what must stop is was raised by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw. The the use of offshore structures to hide assets and income House will be aware that the core function of Companies illegally, and to evade taxes. The overseas territories and House is to receive company information and make it Crown dependencies have all committed to automatically available to the public, and a key part of this is ensuring sharing information to fight tax evasion, and to producing that accounts and annual returns are delivered for every national action plans to set out how they will improve company. Compliance rates for those documents—97.9% beneficial ownership transparency.The Crown dependencies for annual returns and 99% for accounts—are the best have already published their plans, and the overseas they have ever been and are amongst the best in the territories have committed to do so by the end of the world, but we will continue to consider additional means year. This is a significant step forward in transparency, to ensure that companies comply with all their statutory and we will continue to work closely with the overseas filing requirements. territories and Crown dependencies to ensure that the For example, in response to calls for more transparency action to which they commit is robust and ensures the about the extent of company subsidiaries in tax havens, effectiveness of their systems. It would be a pity for this my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, debate to give the impression that we do not acknowledge Innovation and Skills has asked Companies House to the significant progress made in recent months. check the accounts of all FTSE 350 companies for the Returning to the G8, there was collective action to disclosure of overseas subsidiaries information. Hon. improve transparency of beneficial ownership and make Members may be interested to know that Companies it easier for law enforcement and tax administrations to House will publish the findings on this at the end of fight company misuse. The G8 have committed to a set July. of common principles, and each member has committed On HMRC, there are legal remedies to stop taxes to publish a national action plan. The US, France, Italy, being avoided or evaded through dissolving companies Japan, Canada and the UK, as well as the Crown without payment that HMRC makes regular use of. As dependencies, have published their plans already, and an example, HMRC frequently requests restoration of Germany and Russia have committed to do so before companies to the register and then liquidates them, an the end of the year, along with the overseas territories. act that allows liquidators to pursue directors for The G8 action plan means a number of things for the misfeasance and other wrongdoing. As a Government, UK. First, we will legislate to ensure that all companies we have reinvested in HMRC significant sums to deal know who owns and controls them. Companies will be with tax avoidance as a whole. required to obtain and hold information on their beneficial We are short of time and I am unable to address ownership—a requirement that will make it harder for issues such as the general anti-abuse rule and the wider criminals to hide their identity, and easier for law issue of tax transparency, but I am grateful for the 1159 4 JULY 2013 Business without Debate 1160

[Mr Gauke] PETITIONS opportunity to set out the Government’s commitment to dealing with opaque company structures that facilitate Christians in Pakistan financial crime. It is thanks to the Government that this was put on the agenda for the G8 and that countries 5pm around the world are setting out action plans to deal with beneficial ownership. It is why there is a much Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): It is my great greater exchange of information between jurisdictions privilege to bring before the House a petition from the now than we have seen before. We have a proud record residents of Nelson, Lancashire and others. It was in this area and I am grateful for the opportunity to gathered together by the Nelson Asian Christian Fellowship. make that clear. The petition states: The Petition of residents of Nelson, Lancashire, and others, 4.58pm Declares that they condemn the attacks that took place in March 2013 that targeted Christians in Lahore, Pakistan, where John Mann: We have had a useful debate with, I two churches and 178 homes were burnt, and regrets the actions think, 16 contributions, interventions and speeches. I was of the local authorities in the city who failed to protect the a little taken aback by the number of plaudits from buildings from attack. Government Members, but I will perhaps take up the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons offer from the hon. Members for Daventry (Chris Heaton- urges the Government of Pakistan to remove any laws that Harris) and for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who spoke discriminate against minorities, abolish the blasphemy laws, release by proxy for other Oxfordshire Government Members. Asia Bibi, and to provide protection and security when such We could perhaps form a little group to take such issues incidents occur in future. forward: a friendly society, perhaps. We could call it And the Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Unite and we could all join. [P001191] The responses from those on the Front Benches were different, but there were important points from both. Hawthorne Skate and BMX Park Desborough, With vast numbers of companies not submitting returns, Northamptonshire as they should, to Companies House; with situations such as those at Leeds United and Coventry City football 5.1 pm clubs, where people do not who owns them, including those who work at and pay for those clubs; and with the Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I have the biggest criminal gang in the world laundering vast great privilege to present a petition signed by 810 of my amounts of money through a British bank, there is constituents in support of the Hawthorne skate and clearly a major issue that has not been addressed but BMX park in Desborough in my constituency, which needs to be addressed. There are different arguments has been collected by Belinda Humfrey, one of my most and ideas on how to take this matter forward. It is distinguished constituents, to the House of Commons important for Parliament to keep it on the agenda and of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern hold the Government to account. I also think— Ireland in Parliament assembled. The petition states: 5pm The Petition of supporters of the Hawthorne Skate and BMX Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). Park Desborough, Northamptonshire, Declares that the Petitioners support the campaign to save the Hawthorne Skate and BMX Park in Desborough, Northamptonshire, Business without Debate which is a large park, with ten varied wooden ramps built to national competition standard, which was first established in 1999 and which has since benefitted from National Lottery SITTINGS IN WESTMINSTER HALL funding and has been maintained, repaired and rebuilt by the (E-PETITIONS) voluntary efforts of the local community; further that it has been used by thousands of local boys and girls, and now faces the Ordered, threat of closure by Kettering Borough Council, which owns the That this House: land on which the park is sited and which wishes to build (1) notes the recommendations of the Procedure Committee residential properties on the park site and the eight acres of contained in paragraph 7 of its Sixth Report of Session 2012-13, neighbouring green space, which were established for leisure and Debates on Government e-Petitions in Westminster Hall (HC sports use in 1974 and which the Petitioners believe are unsuitable 1094), on the extension of the current pilot for debating e-petitions for housing development because they are located by a nature in Westminster Hall and agrees to extend the changes to Standing reserve. Orders No. 10, No. 14 and No. 152J to the end of the current The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Parliament; urge the Department of Communities and Local Government to (2) approves the recommendation in paragraph 8 of the Report encourage Kettering Borough Council to review the planned relating to the wording of the motion to be debated and that closure of the Hawthorne Skate and BMX Park. Standing Order No. 10(5)(a) be amended accordingly as follows: And the Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. In line 37, leave out ‘from [petitioners]’.—(Anne Milton.) [P001193] 1161 4 JULY 2013 Stafford Hospital 1162

Stafford Hospital Both organisations were running to independent timetables, but the coincidence gave rise to the incorrect impression Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House that the proposed downgrading of services at Stafford do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.) was somehow the direct consequence of the failures in care until 2009. Let us be absolutely clear: it is not. In 5.4 pm fact, the financial problems of the trust are long standing. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Thank you, Madam It should never have been granted foundation trust Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity for a debate on status by Monitor back in 2008. Stafford hospital. However, the impression that exposing poor care somehow resulted in threats to services had a double On 31 July, the administrators of the Mid Staffordshire effect. First, blame was completely unjustifiably put on NHS Foundation Trust will present their proposals for those who spoke out. Secondly, the impression was the future of health services at Stafford and Cannock given that if people speak out in future anywhere else, hospitals. They, as well as Monitor, to which they report, local services might be at risk. The result is that Stafford and the Government, have a tremendous opportunity has experienced ups and downs in the last few months. to show the way forward for the NHS as a whole, which They include the wonderful coming together of a celebrates 65 years this week. This trust special community of all ages and a group supporting the administration is the first under the Health and Social services at the hospital working across the political Care Act 2012 and is a chance to show how emergency, divide. Sadly, however, we have also seen cases of threatening acute and maternity services can continue to be provided behaviour against Julie Bailey and members of Cure the affordably, locally, safely and to the highest standards. NHS, who courageously brought the serious problems We are also talking about the administration of a trust at Stafford to light. I will not mince my words: it has that has been the subject of intense scrutiny since the been heartbreaking to hear people—good people, with revelation of appalling standards of care in some parts the welfare of the community at heart—on opposite of Stafford hospital in the period to 2009. Since then sides of an argument that should never have happened. the improvement has been marked, as the Care Quality Commission has evidenced, although there is no At the same time, hundreds of people in the community complacency about that on our part. have put in a huge amount of time and effort to support Stafford hospital. I want to mention some by name. When tens of thousands of people marched through They include Sue Hawkins, Cheryl Porter, Karen Howell, Stafford on 20 April this year to a rally that I had the Brian Henderson, Diana Smith, James Cantrill, Chris honour to address, along with the Bishop of Stafford, Thomas, James Nixon, Councillors Mike Heenan, Rowan we were showing just how much we value the services Draper and Ann Edgeller, and Ken Lownds—who has provided at Stafford and Cannock. We were also expressing put in a huge amount of expert work—together with our concerns about the future—a future that the my hon. Friends the Members for Stone (Mr Cash), for contingency planning team’s report, which came out Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) and for South Staffordshire earlier this year, said was unlikely to include the provision (Gavin Williamson). of most acute, emergency and maternity services in But I wish to focus on the future, and I am going to Stafford, even though our maternity services have some concentrate on Stafford hospital although Cannock, of the best outcomes in the country. When the trust too, is vital. Stafford is one of the many small district special administrators produce their report, I hope they general hospitals up and down the country that play a will provide us with complete access to the data on vital part in our emergency and acute infrastructure. which they worked, as well as the assumptions made— The number of acute beds has fallen substantially in the something that did not happen with the contingency past 20 years, including in Staffordshire. The new PFI- planning team. funded hospital that opened recently in Stoke has 250 fewer We were also making it clear that we cannot see how beds than its predecessor, although it is none the less a other, neighbouring hospital trusts, which are already wonderful hospital. We all welcome the fact that the under so much pressure, could cope with substantial length of hospital stays has fallen sharply, to an average numbers of additional patients who would have to of less than four days, but a report from the Royal come for treatment, travelling considerable distances on College of Physicians published last year pointed out routes that are not well served by public transport. that there is little room for further reduction. Indeed, as the population begins to age, the average length of stay Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Does might start to creep up again. my hon. Friend agree that if we do not keep a strong The only way to manage acute beds, even at the core of services in Stafford and at Cannock, the consequence current capacity, is to ensure that people do not have to for other trusts could be a deterioration in the care they be admitted in the first place. I am sure that we all want can give patients, which would be highly detrimental for to see that happen, but it will depend on expanded patient care right across Staffordshire? community provision and the better integration of health and social care. That will happen, but it is not happening Jeremy Lefroy: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. yet. Even when it does, my firm belief is that although it Many people, including those with more experience of might halt the increase in demand for acute services, it these matters than I have, have said the same. will not reduce it at this time of a rising and ageing The coincidence of the publication of the Francis population. The Government are listening to experts report—which was commissioned by my right hon. Friend who say that we need substantially increased rail capacity the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), by 2035, so I am sure that they will also listen to the whom I am glad to see in his place—and Monitor’s experts who say that we cannot cut any further the local contingency planning team report into the future of services and regional capacity for emergency, acute and maternity at Stafford and Cannock was, I have to say, unfortunate. care. I say to Monitor and to the Government that 1163 Stafford Hospital4 JULY 2013 Stafford Hospital 1164

[Jeremy Lefroy] that we provide the highest standards of care, and that we will never again let patients be treated in the shocking Stafford is ready to be a national leader in such integration, way that many experienced in the past. with patients and the provision of the highest quality of care put first. However, that demands time and Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I co-operation. thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and I commend him for bringing this issue to the Floor of the House. The first element of co-operation involves a larger Does he agree that we have a national health service, acute trust. In the case of Stafford, the obvious partner and that any loss of services at Stafford could send out is the University Hospital of North Staffordshire in ripples that would affect services at Burton-on-Trent—also Stoke. Working with UHNS as one team will bring in Staffordshire, and also a hospital under some financial advantages to both hospitals and both communities. pressure that services a large proportion of the medical For Stafford, the chance to become part of a university needs of my constituents in North West Leicestershire? hospital will be an exciting prospect. We already welcome third, fourth and fifth-year medical students from Keele Jeremy Lefroy: As usual, my hon. Friend makes a university medical school, and they report that they powerful point—that this debate is not just about a value the experience of working in a busy district general relatively small district general hospital, because it will hospital. For the clinical staff at Stafford and at Stoke, have ripple effects. We have a pretty efficient national the chance to work as a much bigger team across two health service, but it does run on tight margins, so that if sites would bring greater opportunities for them to we take one acute hospital out, it could have effects develop their skills and experience. Frankly, for Stafford, right across the whole region. Local clinical commissioning it would also ensure that there was much less chance of groups have a vital part to play, and I want to pay a return to the complacent culture of the past that the tribute to the good work they are doing in developing Francis report identified as a major problem in parts of community services in Stafford. the hospital. For Stoke, which is already under considerable The third element of co-operation comes from Monitor pressure as a result of the reduction in beds and has had itself. Under the Health and Social Care Act 2012, to reopen up to 100 old ones, coming together with Monitor now has responsibility for setting tariffs, including Stafford would offer welcome additional capacity. It those for emergency and acute services. It would be would also create a larger catchment area, which would rather strange if Monitor were to continue the programme make some specialties that are currently marginal at introduced in 2009 of constant 4% year-on-year real Stoke much more viable. cuts in tariffs, and then be forced to pick up the pieces But this would not be easy, as UHNS also has a of acute foundation trusts around the country that fall substantial deficit and a PFI cost that is frankly into deficit as a result of the tariff cuts it has made. unsustainable. I urge the Government to do everything Monitor has the chance to challenge the assumption within their power to cut the cost of UHNS’s PFI so that acute services can continue to squeeze out annual that the 750,000 and more people who would rely on a efficiencies—in some cases, and not just in Stafford—of combined major acute trust—whether in Stoke, Newcastle- up to 7% a year, while elective services enjoy a relative under-Lyme, Leek Stafford, Cannock or further afield—can feast. continue to have access to services delivered as locally Monitor has the opportunity to ensure that the necessary as possible. changes to the provision of acute services are done in such a way that will allow acute services to continue to Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): I congratulate be provided locally. Monitor itself could become an my hon. Friend on securing this timely debate as we excellent example of joined-up government, and in await the final report from Monitor at the end of this doing so carry out its legal requirement under section 62 month. We must oppose any serious downgrading of of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 to promote the Stafford hospital, but the other hospital that was poorly “provision of health care services which…is economic, efficient managed by the former Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation and effective, and…maintains or improves the quality of the Trust was Cannock Chase hospital, which has been services.” mismanaged to the point that 50% of its hospital buildings Finally, the national Government have a vital role to are currently lying empty. There is therefore a threat to play in co-operation. its future. Does my hon. Friend agree that any solution provided in the report at the end of the month must Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): I am involve Cannock hospital being fully utilised, and Stafford most apologetic about arriving late to this debate and hospital not being downgraded? not having the opportunity to hear the opening part of the hon. Gentleman’s speech. To find a long-term solution Jeremy Lefroy: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, for health care in Mid Staffordshire and in North and I congratulate him on the huge amount of work Staffordshire, it is vital that the Minister refers in his that he has put into ensuring that Cannock Chase reply to the best way of ensuring that the emergency hospital can be better utilised. services and all the other services that people want can be retained. That can be achieved only if we have a The second part of co-operation involves community proper collaboration between the University hospital of services. Instead of seeing acute hospitals as buildings North Staffordshire, which must be at the front of— into which people disappear and then re-emerge at some point, let us make them a full partner in community Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. services. In fact, they should be a hub for those services. Had the hon. Lady been here from the beginning, she Stafford, Stoke and Cannock can be groundbreakers in would have heard what the hon. Member for Stafford this, and set an example to the rest of the country. In (Jeremy Lefroy) said about that. Her intervention was Stafford, we long for the chance to show the country rather long, and we are running out of time. 1165 Stafford Hospital4 JULY 2013 Stafford Hospital 1166

Jeremy Lefroy: I would like to place on record my 5.21 pm thanks to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Joan Walley) for her co-operation on this issue. She has (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a great pleasure to reply to the really been of great help. debate. Let me begin by congratulating my hon. Friend As I was saying, the national Government have a the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), and expressing vital role to play in co-operation. Well distributed emergency my great admiration for the work that he has done so and acute care is part of our national health infrastructure; tirelessly during his time in the House. He has been a it cannot be left entirely to local or even regional bodies tremendous advocate for all his constituents, for the to determine what is provided. My constituency and hard-working staff at the trust who are doing their best those of my hon. Friends the Members for Stone, for in very difficult circumstances, for all the people who Cannock Chase and for South Staffordshire host the have rightly spoken out about earlier problems at the M6, the M6 toll road and both routes of the west coast trust, and for the patients. He is an example to us all of main line and are also scheduled to host HS2. Stafford’s what a hard-working and dedicated constituency Member critical care unit provides a value supplement to the should be. larger ones in Stoke, Wolverhampton and Walsall, in I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for case they are under great pressure. There is a strong Stone (Mr Cash), who has been raising this matter argument for such vital infrastructure to be funded tirelessly for many years. It is a tribute to the efforts of nationally rather than being dependent on local CCGs, both my hon. Friends that we have got to where we are which, in the case of those in South Staffordshire, the today. Government have recognised receive considerably less I can reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Stone than their fair funding share. that the findings of the Mid Staffordshire inquiry are at The administration of Mid Staffordshire is a great the forefront of the Government’s mind. As he will chance for Monitor, through the administrators, to recall, our response to the Francis report set in train a show that it is listening to and acting on the concerns of number of important pieces of work. First, we asked my constituents about the need for vital emergency, Sir Bruce Keogh, medical director of NHS England, to acute and maternity services to remain at Stafford. This look into 14 hospitals where there had been two years provides, too, an excellent opportunity for the Government of higher than standardised mortality ratio indicators. to show first how they have responded to the Francis That work is now reaching fruition. Following a report report by putting patients first, and secondly how the as damning as the Francis report, which looked into the 2012 Act is not, as some would have it, about fragmentation culture of the NHS, we thought it right to investigate and privatisation, but about co-operation and quality other hospitals that could give rise to concern, and we of care for the patients who must be at the heart of the now think it right to examine the findings of Sir Bruce NHS. Keogh’s report before we report back to the House. We also set in train Camilla Cavendish’s review of nursing 5.19 pm and Don Berwick’s inquiry into a minimum-harm and no-harm culture in the NHS. All those inquiries have Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I pay tribute to my formed part of our response to the Francis inquiry, and hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) they have all been independent of Government. We for his tireless work in relation to Stafford hospital. I shall have the reports in the next few weeks, and we myself campaigned vigorously and successfully for a shall then be able to arrange the more considered debate public inquiry, and was able to give evidence to it. on the Floor of the House for which my hon. Friend However, the Government have still not arranged a has rightly called. debate on the Francis report, although it was published My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford was right to many months ago, in February. That is completely highlight the fact that the health care challenges in more unacceptable. I know that the Secretary of State for rural areas, where travelling distances are longer, are by Health wants a debate, so, for heavens sake, will the definition different from the health care challenges in Government get on with it? Will they have their discussions, urban areas. He was also right to highlight the fact that, so that we can debate the matter and establish the root throughout the NHS, in Stafford and elsewhere, we face causes of what went wrong? the challenge, in both human and financial terms, of If the discussions do not produce the results which, better looking after an ageing population and better as my hon. Friend said, are absolutely necessary, the providing dignity in elderly care. national health service itself will not be able to live up My hon. Friend was right to highlight the fact that to what people have claimed that it can produce. It we need to support people such as Julie Bailey, who was could stand or fall on the basis of the results of those treated appallingly in the light of her great courage and discussions. As we know from the media, many people conviction. We must support people inside and outside are questioning the workings of the national health the NHS who have the courage to speak up when there service, and with some justification. If the Government are concerns. We have made that clear in our initial get this right, the health service as a whole will benefit response to the Francis inquiry report. That is why we enormously. I urge them to act. have set up a whistleblowing hotline and are tackling Let me also say that the Prime Minister himself has the cultural issues in the NHS. We will support staff expressed his concern about the treatment given to Julie who want to raise concerns, so they can do so free of Bailey, and we are following that up with the police. fear and intimidation. That is absolutely the right thing Finally, I ask the Government and the Minister to to do. make certain that Stafford hospital is given an opportunity It is admirable that local people have continued to not only to prove itself, but to prove that the national come out in full support of their hospital through the health service can work properly. Support Stafford Hospital campaign. That was 1167 Stafford Hospital4 JULY 2013 Stafford Hospital 1168

[Dr Daniel Poulter] consulted? There are wider concerns about how any further collaboration will affect health care, which has demonstrated by the 50,000 people who marched through to be improved in North Staffordshire as well as in Stafford with my hon. Friend in April and by other Stafford. local events such as the Night of Light event in May. I am sure that we all agree that it is vital that the trust Dr Poulter: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. special administrator, currently in place at the trust, As I highlighted earlier, it is absolutely right that the develops the right proposals for the future of services at TSA will look at the whole health and care sector in the hospital to provide high-quality, affordable and Staffordshire, and of course the implications of any sustainable services. I will return to that later. potential change for neighbouring hospitals. That is The NHS is about to celebrate its 65th anniversary implicit in the work that the TSA is doing. This is, of and its 65th year has perhaps been its most challenging. course, not an issue I can dictate from the Dispatch Box In that year, we have perhaps questioned some of the or the Secretary of State determines. It is for the TSA to things that we held dear. I work in the NHS, I believe in decide what its own work is, and it is important that it and I believe that our NHS should be and is one of that is done without political interference, so the right the very best health services in the world, but when decision for local patients in Stafford and surrounding things have gone so badly wrong it is right that we learn areas can be reached. I am sure the hon. Lady will agree lessons from what has happened, that we ensure that we about that. put them right and that we support staff when they I appreciate the concerns of my hon. Friend the raise concerns. It is right that we drill into how to ensure Member for Stafford that acute services should remain that we listen to staff in learning how to put things right at Stafford hospital. However, the TSA is independent in local hospitals. We must also ensure that we create a of Monitor and therefore it would not be appropriate culture in which trust managers always listen to what for Monitor—or, indeed, Ministers or the Department front-line staff tell them. In my own experience, when of Health—to seek to influence this process. My hon. things go wrong in front-line patient care, it is often Friend is aware that, at the request of the TSA, Monitor because there is a disconnect between management and granted an extension to the period in which it can front-line staff. That is why the Government, through develop its proposals and the consultation period. I the Health and Social Care Act 2012, are embedding in understand that the TSA is expected to consult on its the NHS a culture of clinical leadership, which will proposals between August and October 2013, and I am benefit patients massively. sure my hon. Friend and his constituents will play an On the future of Stafford hospital and the issues active role in that, and that the views expressed in the raised in the debate, the events that took place led House today will be listened to as a part of the deliberations Monitor to intervene and, over the past few years, there of the TSA and in the consultation process that follows. has been a whole health economy approach to improving I appreciate my hon. Friend and his constituents will services at the trust. That has led us to where we are experience uncertainty while the TSA develops its proposals. today. Monitor, as the regulator of foundation trusts, However, the TSA is engaging widely with the broader appointed a TSA at the trust in April 2013 to determine health economy as these proposals are developed and I the future provision of services at the trust. As we know, understand that includes speaking with my hon. Friend that process is ongoing. and the Stafford Hospital Working Group. I would, I should be clear that, while the TSA is developing its therefore, encourage my hon. Friend to continue this proposals, I cannot discuss that in much detail. Nor is it dialogue with the TSA to ensure that his views and known what the TSA is likely to propose. It is right that those of his constituents are fully taken into account as that process is free of political interference. However, proposals for the future of Stafford hospital emerge. what I would expect, and I am sure that my hon. Friend I pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend and my would agree, is that the TSA fully engages with key hon. Friend the Member for Stone, because if it were stakeholders during that process, including clinical not for their work we would not be where we are today commissioning groups, local health care providers, local and the people of Stafford and Staffordshire would be authorities and local MPs, which I have been assured is much more poorly represented. Their record speaks for the case. The TSA is legally bound to consult on its itself and they have our full support in the work they proposals and I would expect that any proposals meet are doing as advocates for their constituents. I look the four tests for any service change and reconfiguration, forward to continuing to support them in my role as a which were set by the former Secretary of State for Minister, and the Government stand ready to support Health, now the Leader of the House of Commons. Stafford hospital. Question put and agreed to. Joan Walley: Can the Minister assure me that, following publication of the report by the trust special administrator, as well as the people and communities in Stafford, the 5.32 pm people and communities in North Staffordshire will be House adjourned. 315WH 4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 316WH

people in absolute poverty. Also, if absolute poverty is Westminster Hall $2 a day, it is much easier to raise somebody to that level from $1.90 than from $1, so there is a tendency to Thursday 4 July 2013 concentrate on lifting those people just below the margin. Ironically, that means that the poorest of the poor could be left further behind. That did not always happen, [MR DAI HAVARD in the Chair] but it could be the consequence, and we were anxious to ensure that such unintended consequences were not Post-2015 Development Goals incorporated into the next round of goals. It is also important to recall that there are huge [Relevant documents: Post-2015 Development Goals, Eighth inequalities. The question of how well we have done Report of the International Development Committee, globally on achieving various MDGs can disguise the Session 2012-13, HC 657, and the Government response, fact that some countries are nowhere near, whereas Session 2012-13, HC 1065.] countries such as China and India have made the biggest Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting progress and account for the highest proportion of the be now adjourned.—(Lynne Featherstone.) success. Even within countries, it may be possible to show that targets have been broadly met, yet some 1.30 pm communities may have fallen completely behind. Again, Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): As you know, we were anxious to ensure that things were much more Mr Havard, we are having two debates this afternoon: inclusive in the future and that the disparities within this one, and then one on the Department for International communities were addressed. We also thought that, Development’s engagement in Pakistan. They will be ultimately, having a livelihood—perhaps a job, but some approximately equal in length, depending on hon. Members’ means of earning a living—is the best way out of contributions. poverty, and that that needed to be incorporated into the goals. The Select Committee on International Development took the view that it was important that we engage in In that context, we were pleased that the high-level the process of the post-2015 development goals, and we panel was appointed, and we were extremely pleased took evidence from a fairly wide variety of sources. We that our Prime Minister was given such a prominent reflected first on the achievement of the millennium role within it. That was testimony to the UK Government’s development goals for 2015, and thereafter on what we commitment to development; we will deliver 0.7% of needed to take forward. When the MDGs were set up in gross national income this year, unlike many countries. 2001, they were rather slow in gathering momentum. The quality and focus of what we do is also highly Some people suggested that they were hatched in a respected. It is essential that we acknowledge that that basement of the United Nations, which is probably has been achieved through strong cross-party support, slightly unfair, but they certainly were not the product and this is an achievement of which our country can be of wide consultation. Nevertheless, over time, the MDGs justifiably proud. became a definite focus of development policy for the I make a side comment on the justification for that UK and many others. It is interesting that in its annual decision for those who choose to criticise it. Any of us report, for example, our own DFID would put against who engage in countries where poverty is severe and the country programmes a series of traffic lights indicating endemic understand completely that however difficult how well a country was doing in relation to those goals. our problems in the United Kingdom, they in no way In time, a lot of developing countries took ownership of compare with the absolute poverty that exists in parts of their responsibility for securing development goals. sub-Saharan Africa and south Asia. We should be However, we must also reflect that the goals were absolutely clear that as long as we have the capacity to somewhat mixed in their intentions and expression, and work in partnership to help to lift those people out of slightly different in substance. Although they were helpful absolute poverty, we should be unashamed in our in driving the agenda, we clearly were not going to hit commitment to doing so. them, and many countries—particularly the weakest ones; the ones that the UK is most engaged in—are off Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Is it not true that if course for achieving them. It would be unacceptable to we can help countries to lift themselves out of poverty, arrive at 2015 and say, “Well, that was an interesting particularly through developing businesses that will pay exercise. Here are the overall performance indicators of tax as part of the formal sector, we can also benefit who got how far towards them,” and have that be the from trade opportunities, particularly in countries such end of it. We recognised that we had to ensure that the as those in Africa? job was not left unfinished and that we moved forward. The UN then appointed a high-level panel with our Sir Malcolm Bruce: My hon. Friend is absolutely own Prime Minister as a co-chair, which reported a few right. In countries that have lifted themselves out of weeks ago. absolute poverty, whatever role aid has played—one The first thing that we were concerned to address, likes to think that delivering health and education whatever the new process did, was much wider ownership infrastructure contributes to that—ultimately it was of it through thorough consultation and engagement. I their own economic uplift, taking people with it, that think that we can honestly say that the process has been turned those countries around, although that has not much more inclusive than the original one. However, we solved all their problems. China still has 200 million also wanted it to address some of the shortcomings of people living in absolute poverty, while India has 400 million, the original goals, such as the fact that a goal of halving but they have lifted huge numbers of people out of absolute poverty by 2015 could leave the other half of poverty, which is a fantastic achievement that has more 317WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 318WH

[Sir Malcolm Bruce] build peace, and effective, open and accountable institutions for all. That is not just a pious declaration, because we to do with the dynamics of those countries’ economies know that the greatest poverty persists where there is than with aid, although I contend that aid certainly conflict or in post-conflict situations. Ending conflict helped them achieve that, particularly when it was and moving people out of conflict are absolutely essential targeted and focused. if we are to eliminate absolute poverty. The final shift is Good and valuable as the 2015 MDGs have been, to forge a new global partnership, which I think means they left many people behind, and in many cases, they that every country should sign up to the new agenda, did not deliver a clear and identifiable qualitative benefit. including those in the developed world, so that this is For example, the process of enrolling children in primary not an “us and them” scenario, but a global compact. education says nothing about whether they actually From those shifts, the high-level panel has proposed learn anything, and we often found that enrolment did an outline of 12 goals, the first of which is to end not lead to completion. Even when it did, the quality of poverty. The second is to empower girls and women, the education was so poor in some cases that it was and achieve gender equality. As I have said on many questionable whether much benefit was achieved. platforms, I believe that that is one of the core necessities Nevertheless, having that driver meant that something for poverty reduction and development. In too many was done that would not otherwise have happened. poor countries, the exclusion of women, and indeed There was variation, because in some cases the quality how they are treated, hold back their entire society. In of education did make a material difference and the my Committee’s recent report on violence against women children stuck at it. and girls, we make the point that if women are treated We were anxious to contribute to the debate about as chattels, if they are beaten and mutilated and if they what we should do next. We wanted to say first that we are denied rights to livelihood, legal representation and could not arrive at 2015 without moving forward to land, the whole society is denied the benefits of a proper what happens next, and that the process had to be partnership for growth and development. We feel strongly conducted in such a way that there was ownership that that is an absolutely central issue. around the globe right from the outset. Goals had to be drawn up together, not imposed from above. The third goal is to provide quality education and Since we published our report, the high-level panel lifelong learning in recognition of the fact that when has reported, and I hope that it is appropriate for me to primary and secondary systems have failed, people have comment on the panel’s report because I hope that it to be given opportunities as adults. We must ensure that reflects our contribution a little. It is a long report that we deliver quality education. The fourth goal is to includes a lot of information, but two specific aspects ensure healthy lives and basic health provision, while are the five “transformative shifts” and the 12 proposed the fifth is to ensure food security and good nutrition. goals, which have sub-goals attached. To be absolutely Again, a report that the Committee has just published clear, the high-level panel has not sought to finish the identifies the changing patterns of what is needed if we job. Its objective was to set the framework and push out are not just to feed the world, but to feed the world ideas about what the principles should be, and the nutritiously. Too often we find that whole generations second part of the process will turn that into clear, are stunted and blighted for life because of their poor quantifiable, realistic goals that can take us forward for diet. the next 15 years. The sixth goal—to achieve universal access to water I welcome the five shifts, the first of which is to leave and sanitation—is a huge challenge, but absolutely essential, no one behind, which addresses one of the fundamental while the seventh, which is to secure sustainable energy, failings of the 2015 MDGs. The second shift—putting has the potential for a great deal of global co-operation. sustainable development at the core of things—which I have already mentioned the aim of the eighth goal, we also recommended, is absolutely essential. The dilemma which is to create jobs, sustainable livelihoods and is that we live in a rich part of the world—a very rich equitable growth. The ninth goal is to manage natural part of the world compared with where the poorest resource assets sustainably, the 10th is to ensure good people live—but people in poorer parts of the world governance and effective institutions, and the 11th is to aspire to the kind of living standards that we enjoy. If ensure stable and peaceful societies. The 12th goal is to they are to do that in the same way that we did, we are create a global enabling environment and catalyse long-term short of the resources of two planets. finance. Those goals are just suggestions, because the We cannot turn around and say to those people, point is that the process has to continue. “Thank you very much. We are very rich, and we are sorry, but there are too many of you and you are too far The Committee welcomes the fact that the high-level behind. You can no longer have that aspiration.” That panel read our report. I am not suggesting that all would be intolerable—indeed, it would not be accepted—so members of the panel read it, but quite a few of them what we have to say is, “How do we work together to did. We know that for certain because two participants—or enable you to aspire towards our level of living standards three, if the Prime Minister’s appearance before the in ways that are compatible with sustaining life on the Liaison Committee can be counted—gave evidence to planet?” It is therefore welcome that sustainable us. I certainly hope that the Prime Minister and his development is involved in one of the five transformative advisers read the report, and I am sure that Michael shifts. Anderson, the distinguished and experienced civil servant A further shift, which is relevant to my hon. Friend’s who leads for us on these issues, has done so. We are intervention, is transforming economies for jobs and pleased that a lot of the issues on which we tried to inclusive growth, because ultimately that is fundamental focus appear to have been taken forward, and we will to sustainable poverty elimination. Another shift is to continue to feed into the process. 319WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 320WH

There is a danger that setting an objective to eliminate Sir Malcolm Bruce: It is somewhat due to our decision absolute poverty by 2030 would lead to the conclusion to concentrate a high proportion of our bilateral aid that, if we succeed in doing that, it is job done, meaning programmes on countries that have emerged from conflict. that aid and development are no longer required. Raising The objective analysis shows that countries that have people out of poverty means that they have an income recently been in conflict, or are still in conflict, have the equivalent to $2 a day, which is hardly a dream of highest rates of poverty and the greatest resistance to untold wealth—we are talking about people who are poverty reduction, partly because they have dysfunctional still extremely poor. Governments, corruption and a lack of law and order. I As an aside, because it is exercising the Committee in stress that that does not lead to the conclusion that it is another inquiry, it is said that countries graduate from too difficult to go there. We have taken a conscious low income to middle income at about $1,200 or $1,300 per decision of saying, “It is very difficult, but we will go capita a year, but countries such as the UK are approaching there. It will be harder, but we believe that our engagement income of $40,000 per capita a year. I am not sure that I will ultimately help them to get out of this bind.” For would regard a country in which the per capita income example, Professor Paul Collier makes the point that is $1,500 or $2,000 a year as anything like a rich the effects of preventing a war are difficult to quantify. country, or one that can solve absolute poverty in its He is clear, however, that the consequences for poverty own territory without co-operation and partnership and hardship of failing to prevent a war will be phenomenal with outside agencies. It seems to me that we can and set back a country for a whole generation, so it is a continue to provide such assistance for as long as the reverse process. need persists. We have gone to the most difficult places with a view I am pleased to have had a couple of opportunities to to helping them to get out of conflict situations and to talk to the president of the World Bank, Dr Kim, who build up their capacity to function. That is difficult, has made two things clear: we really must work to try to however, because we are talking about countries such as eliminate absolute poverty; and we should recognise Yemen, Somalia, Rwanda, the Democratic Republic of that we need to raise the game beyond that and look to the Congo, Pakistan and Afghanistan—those are the improving living standards way above the basic minimum countries on our list. I make no apology about saying that defines absolute poverty. He is clear that that that it is right that we are there and it is good that we means that we must engage with those middle-income address those problems. We are making progress, but we countries that may be out of the bottom level of poverty have to be honest with people, because things are a darn but still have huge pockets of very severe poverty that sight more difficult in such countries. We could much require global shared responsibility and cannot just be more easily spend all our aid in India and China, where left to be dealt with by the country’s own resources. I we know it would have transformative results, but that am speaking with countries such as India in mind. I would leave the others out of the equation, and that is think that our Committee will return to that matter what we must not do and it is what the post-MDG over the next few months, and I hope that we will make settlement must not do. Instead, we must say that no further recommendations on how the Government should one should be in absolute poverty by the end of the next change their relationship with India and countries of a phase in 2030. comparable ilk. Several hon. Members rose— I am glad to have had the opportunity to present the Committee’s report to the Chamber, and I hope that we have made a useful contribution on where we think the Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): I call Ms Bruce, focus should be. We absolutely support the case for because you are a member of the Select Committee, I ensuring that we have replacement development goals believe. as soon as possible after 2015—in other words, by no later than 2016—and that those goals are sufficiently 1.50 pm developed and refined so as to avoid the pitfalls of the Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I am indeed, Mr Havard. first goals. The goals should enable us to deliver a clear Thank you for calling me, and I thank our Chairman, strategy to address the fundamental problems of poverty my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm and hardship over 15 years. Bruce), who referred to cross-party work on the issue, My only plea is regarding whether even 12 goals which is exemplified on our Committee. represents too many. We certainly do not want to have so many targets that people can pick and choose, or lose Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): I wonder whether the sight of them. One of the reasons why I like the five Bruce clan are supporting each other. fundamental shifts is because, right at the core, they cover several fundamental issues on which we all agree, Fiona Bruce: My support for my Chairman is purely while the details are slightly more negotiable. In that professional. My right hon. Friend touched on the context, the broad approach of the high-level panel is importance of job creation, which the Committee highly welcome, and we very much look forward to considered a crucial development challenge. Employment seeing how the process works. was included in the original MDG framework, but it was perhaps not sufficiently prominent and it failed to Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): At the capture the public’s imagination in a way that people in beginning of my right hon. Friend’s speech, I think he the poorest and most vulnerable circumstances in developing said that there has been a lack of progress in a number countries say that it should have done. For them, it is of the countries with which the UK is most engaged. an absolute priority: once they have food, water and, Will he give us a few details on why that might be the interestingly enough, roads, they really want jobs. They case? want roads so that they can get access to market. 321WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 322WH

Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I apologise for arriving money—for example, an aspiring group of people in in the Chamber a bit late. On the subject of roads, does this country seeking to help to build a medical or my hon. Friend agree that one of the most important teaching centre may not need to raise such a sum—so things that the Department for International Development will the Minister look at that again? Furthermore, the is doing in places such as the Democratic Republic of fund is open for applications for an extremely limited the Congo is supporting rural road infrastructure? As time, often only several weeks—I believe that the current we saw in, I think, 2011, a road was built to a place that window closes on 9 July, after only a few weeks—but we had been cut off for 20 years. Rather than it taking five want to encourage people who might have run businesses days for people to get to market, only 60 km of new in this country to consider applying to the fund to see road meant that they could do so in two hours, which how they can share skills. enabled them to bring their produce in, sell it and enjoy their livelihoods. Returning to jobs as a means to end aid dependency, one thing that we need to do is ensure that local Fiona Bruce: That is an excellent example of the authorities in developing countries can maximise any importance of roads. Another relates to Ethiopia, which opportunities for inward investment from countries the Committee also visited. Roads have been built into throughout the world. The BRIC countries—Brazil, areas that were originally little more than bush, and, as Russia, India, China—are looking to invest in Africa, a result, a health centre and a school can then be built. and we must ensure that, when new factories and There is a degree of “villagisation”, whereby families developments are built, the indigenous population and who had perhaps been eking out a living separately in their local authorities have an opportunity to benefit. the bush can come together, form a community and Local councils should be able to negotiate with contractors, support one another. My hon. Friend is absolutely developers and industrialists to ensure that the local right: roads are essential. community benefits properly. Those are sophisticated skills, but the UK can support them and we need to Jobs, too, are essential. Africa is a young continent, ensure that the new MDGs are focused on them. but one where, unless we focus on job creation, we will face an increasing employment challenge for youngsters We also need to consider a more holistic approach to aged up to 25, as the generations, which are now often job creation, ensuring that there is a suitable environment in school, develop from childhood. One challenge is for business development in those countries. Thus, water that we have focused so much—quite rightly—on primary is necessary not only for the development of individual, education: there are now probably millions of children family and village life, but for businesses. Water and with some form of primary education, but with very sanitation are critical, and unless people have access to limited opportunities for secondary and, certainly, tertiary sanitation they cannot run a decent business. Land title education. is essential, as is access to finance and the ability to run As we develop the new goals, we must consider how a business strategically. There is a huge opportunity for we can provide high-quality, targeted tertiary education, us to examine how local authorities in those countries vocational skills and professional training, so that we can work with local business people, so that we in turn can ensure that there are the business leaders, the technical can support them and maximise the opportunities for skills and the young people to run with the vision of local job creation. developing industries in their communities. If we do not get those skills and do not focus on developing them, we We must look at the issue holistically. We start young will miss a massive opportunity to help the people in people here considering jobs and job opportunities those communities—young people with massive between the ages of 12 and 14, before they start to study aspirations—to help themselves. for their GCSEs, and we need to do the same for children in Africa and other countries, and consider We should consider how to transport some of our secondary and early-years education to see what education, skills and strategic understanding of how to develop skills and training can be invested in those young people business and build technical skills. We have to harness to link directly into job opportunities in their countries those things and consider also how we can harness the and local communities. We need an holistic approach to energies of people who have perhaps not thought of job creation and the reduction of aid dependency through being involved in development work before. I cite my new jobs in the developing world. personal experience of doing business training in Rwanda; I hope to do the same this summer in Burundi. 2pm I do not have a medical or teaching background, but Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): It is a I have a business background, so I went to do some pleasure, Mr Havard, to serve under your chairmanship. business training. That showed me that every individual I want to declare a non-declarable interest. I am chairman who is interested in supporting the developing world of the all-party group on Ethiopia, which keeps me very has something to offer—people might be interested in busy and is extremely rewarding. I thank my right hon. going out there to help to support countries that are, as Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) our Chairman said, far less well off than ours. In further and congratulate him on how he introduced the debate. education and business development, we need to consider I pay tribute to him and the Select Committee on their how people who might have taken early retirement but report. I am not a member of the Committee, but I want to give something back can have the opportunity chair the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs to do so. so I know how much work goes into inquiries and I digress slightly, but may I mention the global poverty putting reports together. Select Committee reports are action fund? We need to re-examine whether it is focused often influential and I have absolutely no doubt that correctly. A minimum of £250,000 is a huge amount of this one will be. 323WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 324WH

It is probably fair to say that when I was elected to I support emergency aid and relief, and I have seen this place 16 years ago, international development, overseas examples of such provision being necessary in Ethiopia, aid or whatever it was called at the time had a profile where, every year, about 6 million people rely on food largely because of the work of Baroness Chalker, who donations. was Linda Chalker at the time. It is also fair to say that it has taken off during the past 16 years and its profile Sir Malcolm Bruce: I commend my hon. Friend on has increased. I am happy to pay tribute to the work his work as chair of the all-party group on Ethiopia. carried out by Tony Blair in that respect, and by Clare Does he accept that the crisis that brought the world’s Short, who worked with him and with whom I recently attention to starvation was in Ethiopia more than 25 years shared a platform . ago, and that in more recent years it has had the It is a pleasure that the Government, under the Prime resources as a result of partnership to tackle its own Minister’s particular leadership, have taken forward the food problems, partly by building roads and partly international development agenda and, as my right through better planning? That is a demonstrable hon. Friend said, taken on co-chairmanship of the new manifestation of how aid works. It works well when panel that is responsible for delivering achievement of Governments have the will and partners have the resources the millennium development goals beyond 2015. The to put it together to make it happen. issue is talked about throughout the world. It has its own place in Parliaments and is extremely important. Mr Robertson: My right hon. Friend is absolutely The G8 always discusses the matter and I am pleased right. I was talking to Bob Geldof at the Irish embassy that it has been recognised as one of the most important a while ago and when he asked me what got me interested issues in the world today. I would put it up there with in Ethiopia I said, “You did.” He did an enormous and the environment as the two most important issues facing unbelievable amount of work and if any one person put the world today. the issue on the agenda it was him. I should have mentioned him earlier. Some people say that that work I am pleased that the Government have at last moved set Ethiopia back because it is a wonderful place for us to a figure of 0.7% of GDP on aid, although I am the tourists to visit but they will not do so because of the first to say that it is outcomes rather than what one poverty—there is probably something in that—but we spends that matters. I have in the past been a little cannot ignore what goes on there and that people were sceptical about setting targets, and the Conservative starving to death. Although things have moved on party went into the last election saying that it would get considerably in Ethiopia, each and every year about rid of many targets. They can be manipulated, as my 6 million people there still do not have food security and right hon. Friend said—he did not use the word are dependent on assistance. I am certainly in favour of “manipulate”—and may take us down a path that is emergency relief and of development aid, which is easy but does not achieve much. important in helping countries develop infrastructure, irrigation systems and other things that will help them I approve of the setting of millennium development move towards self-sufficiency over a period of time. goals because that focuses the Government and the world on what we should start to achieve. The 0.7% My right hon. Friend is also right to talk about trade figure is a target that we have achieved, but we must and employment, which will enable people to become measure properly. As my right hon. Friend highlighted, better off. Over the last few years, each time I have gone it is easy to make important the things that we can to Ethiopia I have noticed renewed confidence in its measure while forgetting things that are not easy to economy and in business, which appear to have moved measure, but are more important. on a little since each previous visit. That is encouraging, but I do not want to overstate the situation and an No one who has been to Africa—that is the area I awful lot remains to be done. To move forward properly, focus on most—and seen how people live there can Ethiopia must free up its telecoms business, its banking come back and complain about the fact that we are and financial services sector and the ownership of land. trying to help those people and those countries. It is An awful lot needs to be done, but there is progress. devastating to see the effect of starvation, disease, poverty Many countries need confidence in democracy and and, linked to them, lack of education and health care. the private sector to enable them to move forward a People tell me that pensioners in this country suffer fuel little quicker, but many of them have brief histories. poverty—indeed they do and they need help—but our Ethiopia has a long history of about 2,000 years that we country is rich enough to do both things. A lot of know about, but it does not have a long history of Government spending is wasted, and we could channel democracy and that is how we must view it in some more money into helping people such as our own ways. Everything is relative. We still get elections wrong pensioners who often live in fuel poverty, while also in this country, even today, so we should not be too helping people who live in third-world countries. judgmental about other countries. There was an example of that just last week. We In response to my intervention, my right hon. Friend spend £11 billion or £11.5 billion in aid, but in one day put his finger on the difficult problem of measuring and last week the potential cost of HS2 went up by almost chasing certain aspects of progress. Often the poorest that amount. That is what I mean when I talk about people—those who are most desperate—live in the sort being able to help our own people who need it and of countries that it is difficult to get aid to in one form people abroad who are dying of diseases and malnutrition. or another, and where it is difficult to help them towards A world of plenty that throws food away as we development, with Somalia being the most obvious do should be ashamed of that, and I am pleased that example. However, we have to work and do our best— we are, at last, tackling the problem as seriously as almost by going under the radar—to get aid, assistance we should. and help to people who we do not know or have contact 325WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 326WH

[Mr Laurence Robertson] mention the drastic falls that we have seen, for instance, in malaria, in deaths from malaria, and in maternal and with, but who are the most desperate of all. Doing so is child mortality. difficult, but anything worth doing is never easy. I hope It is important that the post-2015 MDGs build on the that we will continue trying to help such people and success of the MDGs. They should not pretend to be continue trying to work with countries in Africa and the hugely different, and they should learn from areas in heads of those countries, as we are doing, to take them which there was not quite so much success. towards peace. Again, as the right hon. Member for Gordon said, we cannot measure this, but I hope we can I shall concentrate on four issues. The first is young help them to avoid conflict in the first place. That is far people and, particularly, job creation, although my better than going in to sort it out, which is not always hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) possible. spoke eloquently about that, so I shall not spend too long on the subject. It is estimated that 150 million I do not want to speak for much longer; I know that people are unemployed in the world outside the developed another debate is coming up. Again, I congratulate the countries, and 60 million of those are young. Women Members involved on compiling the report. To me, this are particularly affected, and some 1.49 billion people area is one of the main reasons that I entered politics in are in vulnerable employment. I suggest that those are the first place. I will be in the House tomorrow, supporting underestimates, frankly, but they are the figures that we the European Union (Referendum) Bill, and I am a have. It is vital that the new post-2015 MDGs take that complete free marketeer. I am considered to sit on the situation fully into account. right wing of the Conservative party, even though such terms are nonsense, because most people would follow Although there was an MDG concentrating on that me in what I will say and do tomorrow. However, when issue, it was probably the least successful one. Over the it comes to international development, we have a moral past 10 or 15 years, vast numbers of people have been duty to do what needs to be done. In addition, we pulled out of poverty in countries such as China, but should not forget that the better off we can make that has not been seen as much in other countries that countries throughout the world, the more secure that suffer from acute poverty. The main reason was the lack makes this country, and the more opportunities it gives of job creation, which is why we have to concentrate on us in this country. From a purely selfish point of view, that. It is all very well to say that some of those there is a benefit to what we are doing. To my mind, countries will now have great opportunities, because however, that is not the main reason for doing it; the mineral wealth or oil and gas are being discovered, but main reason is that it is humane, and it is the right thing those industries do not create huge numbers of jobs. to do. The key is that revenue from that natural wealth is put into real investment that creates jobs. Agriculture in Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Points for effort, particular, and especially small-scale agriculture, has a Mr Robertson—HS2 and the European referendum all huge role in creating jobs. in one speech. Amazing. Before I talk about the World Bank, I must declare an interest, as I have just been elected chairman of the 2.11 pm parliamentary network on the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. The hon. Member for Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): It is a pleasure to York Central (Hugh Bayley) was once the chairman of serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. You will be that network, and he played a great role in setting it up a glad to hear that I will not speak about HS2—not this few years ago. The World Bank has two goals: first, to week anyway. It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. eliminate absolute poverty by 2030—by which it means Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), people on $1.25 a day or less—and, secondly, to concentrate and to be in the same room as him and the Minister of on the bottom 40% of the income range. That is vital, State, Department for International Development, my because this is all about reducing income inequality right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton while increasing the incomes of those who need the (Mr Duncan). They will not remember this, but I certainly most. That is where employment and job creation comes do: they were the two Members of Parliament who in and, in that area, we must take account of the role interviewed me for the candidates’ list about 12 years and potential of young people. As Nik Hartley, the ago. They may regret their decision, but I do not. chief executive of Restless Development, said: This is an incredibly important debate, and it is a “We should take the lead in ensuring young people are not bit pleasure that the Minister with responsibility for the players but central to the leadership of and governance of the millennium development goals and post-2015 MDGs new development framework. They will be the job creators or the will respond. The goals represent one of the best things unemployed, the new democratic leaders or drivers of revolution to come out of the United Nations and the world and rebellion”. community in the past 30 or 40 years. They are probably The task of the present generation is to meet development the most significant thing since the declaration, back in challenges without compromising the interests of future 1970 or 1971 after the Pearson report, that developed generations. countries should aim to give 0.5% of GNI as development My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton mentioned assistance. I am glad to say that this country will many drivers of job creation, such as land title and achieve that for the first time this year. access to finance. It is good that DFID is heavily The MDGs have been important because they have involved in both those areas. I have mentioned this issue been accessible and achievable. Not all have been achieved, before in the House, but I will do so again today, and certainly not in all countries, but many of them because through an excellent programme in Rwanda, have been achieved in some of the countries to which which I believe is coming to an end, DFID financed the they apply. Without going through them all, I want to creation of title deeds in to pretty much every single 327WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 328WH part of the country. There are 10 million individual the fish in Lake Victoria, has resulted in the eradication plots at a cost of about £40 million. It is one of the best of smaller fish that all the families living around the development projects I have seen funded by DFID—in shores of the lake ate—and survived on. That has fact, it is one of the best of all, so I congratulate the created a difficult sustainability challenge for the whole Department. I encourage it to look at other countries in area. which that particular programme could be rolled out. I am glad to say that the software used was created in the Jeremy Lefroy: I am most grateful for that intervention, UK and that the implementation was done by a company because that point is absolutely true. While we are on from the United Kingdom. I know that DFID takes the subject of fish, there has also been a problem in access to finance very seriously and is involved in work recent years of very large trawlers of European Union on that in many countries throughout the world. origin—I will not mention the particular country—coming My second point is about maintaining the gains. I am down the east coast of Africa and, under arrangements chair of the all-party group on malaria and neglected agreed by the European Union at the highest level, tropical diseases, and we are delighted at the progress hoovering up large quantities of fish, but without much that has been made on tackling malaria. Over a decade, benefit going to the individual countries off whose the number of deaths has come down from about 1 shores they are fishing. million a year to probably no more than 600,000 a year In tackling these vital environmental challenges, we through the mass introduction and distribution of long- must not overburden developing countries with global lasting, insecticide-treated bed nets, through rapid diagnostic environmental issues that they had no real part in tests, and, of course, through the latest drugs that are causing in the first place. To a large extent, it is up to us based on combination therapies with artemisinin. to take the lead on that, so I am glad to say that the UK However, malaria can rapidly come back if we do not Government are doing so. continue to control it, as we are doing, for instance, with It is vital that the four areas that I have set out—there indoor residual spray. We saw in Zanzibar in the 1960s are many others, which I am sure the Minister and the that malaria had almost been eliminated, but the foot hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara was taken off the pedal, so within 10 or 20 years, it was Ali) will address—are covered by the post-2015 MDGs. a scourge again right across the islands of Unguja and They are: job creation, particularly for young people; Pemba. We have seen that in other countries as well, ensuring that we preserve the gains that have been so including, even more recently, in Zambia, where malaria painstakingly achieved in the past decade and a half; staged a bit of a comeback two or three years ago. It is ensuring the environmental sustainability of those gains, therefore vital that we continue programmes tackling so that we do not achieve short-term gains that cannot malaria, HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis and neglected tropical be maintained in the long term because they are simply diseases. In the case of neglected tropical diseases, the not environmentally sustainable; and the development mass drug distribution programmes that have been so of health systems. This week, we are proud of the 65th successful have been financed by a public-private partnership anniversary of our national health service, which has between the pharmaceutical companies, which have led to great improvements in public and general health provided the drugs free of charge, and aid agencies, in this country. That is the kind of system that we such as DFID together with the Gates Foundation. should want to provide such gains in health in developing That brings me on to my third subject—health systems. countries. We often, and rightly, want to tackle individual diseases, be that polio, pneumonia, malaria, HIV/AIDS or TB, 2.24 pm but this is actually often about tackling many of those Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): It is a things together through health systems. On a recent pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. visit to Tanzania, I was delighted to see that rather than I thank the Chair of the International Development there being a silo mentality on individual diseases, that Committee, the right hon. Member for Gordon country, with support from DFID through the London (Sir Malcolm Bruce), for opening the debate and for school of hygiene and tropical medicine and the Liverpool making, as ever, a powerful speech on the need for our school of tropical medicine, was taking the approach of continued commitment to tackling poverty and inequality working on things together—as a system—to tackle in developing countries. I welcome his comments on the these diseases at once. contribution of successive Governments, particularly Finally, I would like to talk about the environment the previous Labour Government, and thank him for and environmental sustainability. I understand that there his contribution and for working with us on this very was a great deal of discussion about whether to have important issue. separate environmental goals and developmental goals. The millennium development goals, when they were We in the Committee believed that it was not possible to established, provided huge momentum in addressing separate the two. We cannot go for tackling the problems some of the most pressing challenges facing developing of development but ignore the environment or put it in countries. Admirable progress has been made. Examples another box, as the two go together. of that are the significant reductions in extreme poverty and infant mortality; access to primary education for Fiona Bruce: I am very much enjoying my hon. Friend’s children; improvements in the living conditions of slum speech, which I know comes from a great deal of dwellers; and major advances in the fight against disease, first-hand knowledge. I can offer an example of first-hand including HIV and others. Although we are often restless understanding of where development has affected a about the fact that more progress has not been made, it local environment very seriously: the introduction of is important to take stock and recognise that the starting large-scale fishing in Lake Victoria in Tanzania. The point was not a great one. We should be proud of those introduction of the Nile perch, and factory farming of achievements that have been made, but we should remain 329WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 330WH

[Rushanara Ali] everyone knows who he is due to his great contribution to the MDG agenda—has been leading the way on the restless about the setbacks. That is the context in which global campaign for education. the Select Committee report has been written—it is The hon. Gentleman’s point about tertiary and secondary vital. education and skills is critical. We could learn a lot The critical gap in what we are doing—the area where ourselves about investing in young people’s skills, as we fall behind—is inequalities between and within countries, well as in developing countries. Innovations are coming which are growing, particularly following the financial from developing countries, and we could learn a thing crisis, as budgets come under pressure. The brunt of or two from the successes, which could not have happened that has been borne, and the pressure has been faced, by without investment and the support of our taxpayers some of the most vulnerable people, particularly women over 15 to 20 years. It is critical to continue to help and those living in conflict-affected areas, as hon. Members countries and focus on education. In the end, economic mentioned. development will be driven by decent education and decent opportunities, not to mention other indicators We must ensure that the post-2015 goals respond to such as health care and so on. the challenges in developing countries that we can observe I want to highlight some of the achievements, of and predict—those that are already occurring, but which which we as a country can be proud, produced by the we believe will grow in the decades to come. As the investment over a couple of decades: 3 million people report asserts, the new framework should be ambitious have been lifted out of poverty. Britain has led the way and be aimed at eliminating extreme poverty, but I hope on debt relief, and people, particularly those in Jubilee that the high-level panel will also have, as has been 2000, campaigned to ensure that Labour Government referenced already, a strong focus on tackling inequality. had the impetus and the backing to make it happen. As the right hon. Member for Gordon said, we cannot Campaigners, international and domestic NGOs, UK accept that tackling extreme poverty is good enough. In community organisations and faith-based organisations the 21st century, we cannot live in a world where it is are critical not only in applying pressure to our Government acceptable for people to live on just over a few dollars a and other Governments to ensure that they do not lose day or where a few thousand dollars per capita a year sight of what is at stake in failing to continue to work gives a country middle-income status. towards achieving the MDGs, but in ensuring that the I therefore hope that the Prime Minister, with the next round of discussions, as hon. and right hon. Members support of his Ministers and coalition partners, will be have mentioned, builds on what we have achieved, and ambitious and bold in his role, showing international that where there have been setbacks, lessons are learned. leadership, which is desperately needed at a time of Critically, developing countries should be partners in growing challenges and conflicts in many parts of the coming up with goals over the next period, so that they world, including middle-income countries. are at the heart of the decision-making process and do Lessons need to be learned from what we could have not feel that goals are being imposed on them. They and done differently in the past. In particular, we need to their populations have a far better understanding of understand the drivers of conflict, such as injustice and how to tackle poverty and reduce inequality. We must inequality, but also the failure—referred to by the hon. be humble in recognising the many national NGOs in Members for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), for Stafford developing countries across the world, whether we are (Jeremy Lefroy) and for Congleton (Fiona Bruce)—to talking about the role of technology and innovation in respond to the aspirations of young people who want tackling development and health challenges in South jobs. They also want skills and not only primary education, Africa, or the role of microfinance, led by Professor but tertiary education, to enable them to make their Yunus, Fazle Abed and many others, in India, Bangladesh own contribution to their countries. and other countries. There are innovators and great thinkers and doers in We should consider what has happened in the Arab developing countries, who need to be in the driving seat spring. Furthermore, the United Nations Development of helping to set the future goals. International leadership Programme has pointed out that if there had been more is needed not only from western leaders, but from the understanding and closer measurement of inequality, leaders of developing countries and the emerging economies we might have been better placed to predict that some that increasingly call the shots on some major issues. of those other, earlier conflicts were likely to arise. I They can and must play a vital role in tackling poverty hope that we can learn some of the lessons from that. and inequality, and in dealing with the major challenge of climate change, which could undermine the achievements Jeremy Lefroy: I fully agree with everything that the of which we are proud, not to mention set back the hon. Lady is saying. Does she agree that it is vital that progress we seek to make through future investments. the post-2015 goals refer to a major role for secondary I shall briefly focus on some of the challenges we and tertiary education? The original MDGs concentrated, face. The key challenge has been well documented in rightly, on primary education, but we need to move this and previous reports. We need to think about the beyond that. fact that there will be more poverty in middle-income countries than in developing countries. The high-level panel needs to put that at the heart of the debate about Rushanara Ali: I agree. Of the MDGs, the education where we go in future. Any attempt to tackle the challenges goal has the best prospect of being achieved, so it is of poverty must come up with an approach, a narrative important that we continue the push to lift people out and a response that find a way to get to the poorest in of poverty and also into secondary and tertiary education, the growing economies of middle-income countries such as well as primary. As the hon. Gentleman knows, our as India, China and Indonesia, as well as Africa, which previous Prime Minister—I will not name him, because is also growing economically. 331WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 332WH

Sir Malcolm Bruce: I wholly endorse what the hon. those countries. I hope, therefore, that that will be Lady has just said. The International Development looked into, as well as some of the private sector funds Committee is conducting an inquiry on precisely how that DFID has recently set up. The Opposition want we can alter the mechanisms by which we deliver. Although any investments that are made to create genuine economic it is right to focus on the poorest people in the poorest opportunities and taxpayers’ money to be properly countries, we should not leave behind equally poor spent. people in less poor countries. That probably requires I have two other points to make. The first is about the some change in the DFID model from what we have impact of conflict on women in particular, and on been doing perfectly correctly over the past 15 years. children. We see all too well that that is another major issue that risks setting back any progress made on Rushanara Ali: I look forward to the next instalment development. For example, in the Burmese state of from the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman and his Rakhine, which I visited recently, progress is being team. We need to settle the question of how we respond made, but the treatment of certain minorities and of to some of the domestic criticisms on giving aid to big women in those groups is setting back progress. We emerging economies, such as India, where hundreds of need to ensure that human rights and women’s millions of people still face deep poverty. Many other empowerment are at the heart of development, and I nations are in that position. We need a political response welcome the references made to that by the high-level and an approach that explains why such aid matters. We panel and by the Committee. must also look at how the international community Secondly, we need to recognise that world demographics brings in nations that are doing well, such as India and are rapidly changing. Increasing populations, and a China, to be genuine partners in development, so that growing middle class in India, China, Indonesia and we can contribute together to tackle poverty in middle- many other countries, present major opportunities, but income countries. Only then will we be able to address also pose major challenges due to the pressures on the political criticisms and critiques that we face in our natural resources. As is pointed out in the report, the country—that also happens in other countries—and high-level panel discussion must integrate sustainable settle the question of how we should respond to the development goals into the post-millennium development challenges. goals framework. Segmented, siloed approaches will If we do not address poverty in middle-income countries, not do for the next phase of what we are trying to we will set ourselves up for future problems—and even achieve and for what we need the international community very wealthy countries have recently faced conflict. It is to work towards addressing. far better to anticipate difficulties and consider how we I have a series of questions to pose to the Minister. In might respond as part of the development agenda process, focusing on what happens with the post-2015 goals, so I hope the Minister will shed more light on her ideas what will the Government do to drive home the message about how we might do that. of economic opportunity through job creation, In the remaining time, I shall focus on economic apprenticeships and tertiary education? growth and development. Hon. and right hon. Members The Minister will be aware that a major additional have mentioned the importance of employment, economic support for developing countries is remittance income, growth and the role of the private sector. Opposition which eclipses development aid from the whole world Members very much support building self-sufficiency put together. Recent changes, led from the US, are and creating opportunities for people to become affecting the UK, with banking facilities to remittance independent and be able to look after themselves, which companies and money transfer companies being removed is at the heart of what people want. We need to ensure by Barclays bank. Therefore, hundreds of billions of that the allocation of DFID resources through private pounds are at risk of not getting to developing countries, sector programmes is transparent and properly monitored, and the cost of sending that money might increase. In just as we would expect with NGOs, and that public countries such as Somalia, which is a post-conflict state, money is not used in an ideological manner. We must family members are not getting money into their loved look at where the impact is, whether the outcomes are ones’ pockets. We are talking about very poor people those that we sought—creating opportunity, jobs and who do not receive development aid, and I would be economic development—and whether the programmes interested to hear the Minister’s response on that point. are pro-poor. The UK Government need to work with the US Government, and the high-level panel ought to look at Fiona Bruce: The hon. Lady is right to raise that additional income sources going into developing countries. pertinent point. The Committee is examining different If the route by which the income gets to its destination ways to advance funds—not purely through grants, but is damaged, an even greater challenge is posed to perhaps repayable loans or joint investments—in ways international development budgets, in addition to the that ensure that an appropriate return for our taxpayers, tasks at hand of reducing poverty, improving health which can then be reinvested, is gleaned from the funds incomes and tackling educational inequalities. What is invested. the Minister going to do about that issue, which will affect hundreds of thousands of people just in the UK, Rushanara Ali: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments, never mind in other countries? I would be happy to and I hope that the Committee will interrogate the brief her after the debate, if she would like that. CDC about its role in de-risking investment opportunities I shall conclude, because I am conscious that we have for companies, because that is one reason it was set up. another debate coming up. I very much hope that the Too often, people have been concerned that it replicates post-2015 development goals have an ambitious focus what the private sector can do and does not act as much on working with developing countries, NGOs, and local of a catalyst to enable innovative finance to go into organisations and populations, both here and in developing 333WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 334WH

[Rushanara Ali] the International Development Committee is pleased that many of its recommendations are reflected in the countries. The Opposition believe that we must put report. social justice, tackling inequality, and promoting human The five transformative shifts that drive the new rights and labour standards at the heart of the post-2015 development framework are key. First and foremost is goals. If we do not do that, the international community the commitment to leave no one behind, which goes to should not be surprised, for example, that in countries the heart of the issue that many Members raised, and to such as Bangladesh we witness more than 1,100 people keep faith with the original promise of the millennium unnecessarily losing their lives in industrial accidents development goals and finish the job by eradicating that could have been prevented had labour standards extreme poverty in a generation. and human rights standards been properly applied. The high-level panel and the international community must A number of Members raised issues of equity and ensure that human rights, labour standards and women’s equality, and there is a commitment to ensuring that rights are at the heart of everything that is proposed, every single goal is achieved for everyone, in every social alongside the economic and social goals. and income group, regardless of gender, ethnicity, disability, I hope that our Government—DFID Ministers working where someone lives, what religion they practise, or with other Ministers and the Prime Minister—will include whether they are in extreme poverty. That is a radical the rights framework in those proposals, as well as departure from the previous MDGs, and is the shift social justice and inclusive pro-poor economic growth. that will make the most significant difference, because That would address the points that have been made countries will not score unless they have done hard about creating opportunities and building self-sufficiency work for the hardest to reach, the most marginalised, and independence in people’s lives, so that over time our the most difficult and the poorest extremes. assistance will be less necessary. Our assistance will Secondly, the panel called for sustainable development always be necessary when there are humanitarian challenges, to be at the core of the new framework. Several Members but development assistance will be less needed over time have raised the issue of integrating the millennium if we get our act together and ensure that we genuinely development goals with the sustainable development help to lift people out of poverty, and give them the goals. Although the streams are separate—the open opportunity to generate income, set up businesses and working group is working on the sustainable development create a way of life that builds self-sufficiency. goals—that second transformative shift will put sustainable That is what people in countries where we provide development clearly at the core of the new framework. assistance want. We, as taxpayers, want to ensure that That recognises the fundamental link between the we do not put on our televisions and see images of environmental, social and economic pillars of sustainable poverty and inequality—year in, year out. We want development. For example, we can deliver food security results. I hope that is what will be focused on, building for all only if there is an efficient and sustainable use of on the MDGs and the contributions already made to natural resources. It is absolutely clear that we need to developing countries by the international community. bring together the review of the millennium development goals and the Rio+20 follow-up to deliver a single development framework, as the Committee recommended 2.47 pm in its report. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Thirdly, we need to transform economies to provide International Development (Lynne Featherstone): It is a jobs and inclusive growth, which was mentioned by pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. several hon. Members. Clearly, we need to lift people I once again thank the International Development out of poverty through economic development and Committee for its report, to which the Government growth, to unleash the dynamism that gives everyone replied on 14 March. I congratulate the Committee on economic opportunities, and to harness investment and securing a debate on this important topic, and my right the private sector as the drivers of development. As has hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm been said, we need inclusive and pro-poor growth, and Bruce) on an excellent pre-emptor to the high-level it is important that those things are interwoven. The panel discussions. We have heard many excellent hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara contributions from Members this afternoon, and I will Ali) raised some concerns about the involvement of try to get through as many points as I can, but my time organisations and companies, such as CDC or ones in is somewhat limited. the private sector. It is vital that all who work in or profit from such organisations, share those profits and Since the International Development Committee’s ensure that everyone benefits from such growth. report and the Government’s response, we have seen the high-level panel’s report on post-2015 development. I Fourthly, although this has been less mentioned in hope that all those who have seen the report will join me the debate, we need to build peace and to build effective, in saying that the Prime Minister and the panel have set open and accountable institutions for all. As the Prime the bar high for the next two years of discussion. They Minister has said, have laid out a truly ambitious vision for eradicating “Freedom from fear, conflict and violence is the most fundamental extreme poverty within a generation, tackling the difficult human right”. but necessary issues head on. Human rights have been mentioned in the debate. Without I want to take a moment to talk about the high-level accountable Governments, safety, freedom of speech, panel’s report, because I believe, and the Government free political choice, the rule of law and all the elements believe, that the vision it sets out for what the new of good governance and peace, how can we eradicate agenda might look like marks a step change. I hope that poverty? 335WH Post-2015 Development Goals4 JULY 2013 Post-2015 Development Goals 336WH

Fiona Bruce: Will the Minister give way? I want to highlight three of the Committee’s recommendations that are particularly important. The Lynne Featherstone: I am really short of time, but I first is on the rights of women, which I have already will briefly give way. touched on. The more times that that can be raised by more bodies, the more capital it will gain until we reach Fiona Bruce: We often forget that freedom of belief— universal agreement that part of, if not all, the answer is freedom of thought and belief, to hold a religion or not the empowerment of women. The second recommendation to hold any religion—goes alongside freedom of speech. is that the post-2015 development agenda reflects the That is not always remembered, but it should be. needs of the poorest, about which I could not agree more. As has been said, we need to listen to the voices of Lynne Featherstone: Well, it is remembered by the the poorest, and that is what the high-level panel did. Government. We hold that dear, and we work closely For the first time, from surveys such as the My World not just with people in terms of respecting their religions survey, and mobiles, the internet and old-fashioned in their countries, but with our own faith groups and clipboards and pencils, schoolgirls in Rwanda and urban faith NGOs throughout the world. We cannot really do workers in Brazil have all been heard. Thethird development, if we do not work in partnership with the recommendation highlighted the importance of keeping faiths of the countries in which we work. That is the up the hard work, and I absolutely concur with it. only way forward. The issues of women, and of women in conflict, have been raised. In relation to providing peace and stability, [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] DFID—the UK Government—have put women and girls right at the heart of all our development work. I want to touch on some of the points raised in the With respect to lifting families out of poverty, if a debate. I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend the woman is empowered with education, has children later, Member for Gordon that we should take the MDGs as has some power over her own life and has economic a starting point for the post-2015 goals. He highlighted empowerment, her children and the community will be the important lesson that halving poverty sometimes better off. As the international champion in the fight has the perverse incentive whereby we do not try to against violence against women and girls, our fight is reach the very poorest. It is because that is important obviously against violence against women—how can we that the high-level panel has called for disaggregated have development when half the population basically data for all groups to ensure that the most vulnerable cannot go outside their own door?—but there are also people are not left behind. campaigns on female genital mutilation, which is a My right hon. Friend raised the issue of fragile states. symbol of women’s oppression. He rightly identified the real issue that countries emerging Finally, the panel has called for a new global partnership from, or still in, conflict can be left behind in relation to and has set out the principles of that new partnership development. The high-level panel report recognised and the spirit of co-operation needed between Governments, that conflict plays a critical role in relation to security. It civil society, businesses, international agencies and people has addressed that through the stand-alone illustrative living in poverty themselves to make the post-2015 goal of ensuring stable and peaceful societies, for which vision a reality. We have all learned that there is no one targets in the framework include those on violent deaths, answer and that no one body or person can deliver access to justice and the behaviour of security forces. across all the areas that are needed in this world, which The Government will work hard to ensure that that we will achieve only through genuine and sincere important recommendation is reflected in the final partnership. framework. One big jump made by the high-level panel report is Several hon. Members raised the issue of young its use of illustrative examples of how the transformative people and mentioned the burgeoning number of young shifts could be made into goals themselves. I am obviously people in some countries. The panel has called for a biased: I am very keen on the stand-alone gender goal, jobs target with a specific indicator for youth employment. which I think is imperative. However, there could be goals on poverty, hunger, education, equality, jobs, economic Secondary and tertiary education has also been raised. growth, good governance, peace and stability. Hon. We have found from the evidence that the most benefit Members have spoken compellingly about the importance for economic development comes through primary and of all those issues, and I hope they are happy with the lower secondary education, but as countries develop, concrete, measurable and compelling goals and targets people need to stay in secondary and tertiary education that have been suggested. and, even more importantly, to have jobs at the end, so that those who have been through tertiary education are The report was a remarkable piece of work. I did not not left with nothing and with nowhere to go, except to expect it to be as good and succinct as it is. This is the leave those countries that so greatly need them. beginning of the process, and the next two years will demand a huge amount of work if we are to bring that Everyone has praised the 0.7% level, about which seminal piece of work to a concrete conclusion that we there is cross-party consensus. My hon. Friend the can all deliver. As has been said, the early MDGs were Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) spoke about phenomenal drivers for good, but they did not always his experience in Ethiopia. I have felt the same when I achieve what they set out to do. Like other Members, I have been there. Each time I go, I see that it has opened have visited schools, including one in Zambia that has itself to the world a little more. I also admire its control 100% attendance, but a 96% failure rate. We have learned over its own development, because it has its own best from the first MDGs, so I am very hopeful that we will interests at heart. As I have said, growth should be do better with the post-2015 ones. inclusive and pro-poor. 337WH Post-2015 Development Goals 4 JULY 2013 338WH

[Lynne Featherstone] Pakistan I could not agree more with my hon. Friend the [Relevant documents: Tenth Report of the International Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) when he spoke Development Committee, Session 2012-13, HC 725, and about strengthening health systems. In the nine months the Government response, Session 2012-13, HC 325.] that I have been in post, I have found that if Government public health systems are not there and everyone—whether an NGO, a non-state actor or whoever—does their 3.1 pm separate bit, however well-intentioned, it is very piecemeal. Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I think it is fair to It is only with the stability of a national health system, say that the International Development Committee was as it were, that services can be combined, as I have seen a little bit more controversial in some of our comments in the very poor state of Marsabit, where the Government and recommendations on Pakistan than we were on of Kenya have done so in relation to nutrition programmes, post-2015 development goals. The Committee wants to vaccination programmes, transition of HIV, and so on. make it clear that we have absolutely no hesitation in I am running out of time, but I want to thank my asserting the fact that the relationship between Britain hon. Friend for his kind words about DFID’s work on and Pakistan is fundamental and indissoluble. It is titles in Rwanda. Land ownership and land titling is absolutely essential to both countries as a force of hugely important. history and a current reality. We have more than 1 Lastly, let me reassure the House that the Government’s million people of Pakistani origin living in the United commitment to this vital agenda will go on. The agenda, Kingdom, and we have a shared interest in ensuring which will shape the UK’s work on development in the that Pakistan is a successful country that manages to coming decades, will continue over the next two years of overcome the challenges that it faces. Secondly, we want discussions and negotiations. Thank you, Mr Gray, for to make it clear that, more than anything else, we the opportunity to speak on this important topic. I believe that the United Kingdom should stand with the thank all Members who have spoken. poorest people of Pakistan and that our objective is to engage in helping them to achieve a better quality of Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. Before we move life. That might mean that we will be a candid friend of on to the next debate on Pakistan, it is perfectly in order Pakistan rather than a sycophantic one. for the right hon. Member for Gordon to wind up this The population of Pakistan is projected to rise from debate. 180 million to 205 million by 2020, and the simple challenge that the country faces is that population 3pm growth is faster than economic growth. One does not have to be a top mathematician to calculate that as the Sir Malcolm Bruce: I will be very brief indeed. I population rises, unless something fundamental changes, thank everybody who has contributed; it has been a the numbers of people in poverty will increase. That is good debate. I wish that more people had taken part, one of the more depressing analyses for our development because this is a very important issue. I am grateful to and aid programme across our bilateral partners. the shadow Minister for her constructive and inclusive comments, and that is the way we have to work on this In that context, the Government have a perfectly particular agenda. She is right to say that we must understandable ambition to raise the aid programme—the explain to those critics in this country why what we are bilateral funding to Pakistan—from £267 million to doing is in our national interest as well as—in the words £446 million by the end of this Parliament. We completely of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson)—our understand that, but we have some grave reservations moral responsibility. The high-level panel has made an about doing it if nothing changes, and that was an extremely good start, but there is obviously a process essential aspect of our report. that continues from here. Obviously, we looked at the areas in which the I say to the Prime Minister what I said to him in the Department for International Development was engaged, Liaison Committee and in our own evidence that I hope which were predominantly health, education and he will maintain ownership of this process, even though governance. In all cases, they were the right areas on the work of the high-level panel has finished. It is which to be focused. Will the Minister update us on absolutely right that he was a co-chair, but we urge him some of the specific points regarding those areas about to continue to take an interest in the matter, because his which we raised concerns? interest will help to drive it to the right conclusions. I There is a big programme of commitment to improve thank everyone who has participated, and I thank the maternal help, which we support, and it is absolutely Minister for her comments. I can assure the Chamber essential that that is delivered. Two health support that we as a Committee will continue, I hope, to feed in mechanisms are in place. One, the lady health workers, useful suggestions based on the evidence that we receive. is longer established, while the other, to which DFID has given substantial support, is community midwives. A practical thing we discovered was that where those mechanisms should be complementary and working together, they were operating dysfunctionally as two separate institutions. One reason for that was how people were paid. As we understand it, lady health workers get a flat salary to provide help on maternal health, child health and general health issues, which is what our own community nurses do. Community midwives, on the other hand, are specifically there to support 339WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 340WH women through childbirth. They are paid a much smaller than because they have a political connection, and that flat rate plus so much per delivery, so that has created is absolutely right. The point he makes, however, is that two classes of health workers in the same area. exam marks, which are the test of merit, are subject to We actually saw a particularly good example of endemic corruption; effectively, people can buy exam co-operation between a lady health worker and a results and present themselves as having merit when community midwife, but that had more to do with the they have absolutely no capacity to be a competent fact that they were sisters-in-law than that the system teacher. I will not read them out, but Dr Nelson gives itself was working fundamentally as we would like. I do examples of how the process works. not know whether the Minister can give us any information That is obviously a concern, but we recognise that the about whether that situation has been addressed and approach taken by Michael Barber and the commitment improved. I want to make it clear that they are both of the Chief Minister are real and are having results, good basic concepts, but how they were functioning was although the two of them are probably facing more not serving the interests of the people as well as might challenges than they would like. If the Minister can have been the case. address those challenges now, that would be good; if Obviously, the biggest part of the Government’s not, perhaps he can write to us saying what proposals programme is support for education, especially, but not are being taken forward. We should certainly not abandon exclusively, in Punjab. It is worth reporting that when the programme, but we must make sure that it works we were meeting the then Prime Minister, he spontaneously effectively and delivers the right results. raised the issue of Malala, who was sadly shot and is The Committee’s concern was not so much that DFID now living in this country, before any member of the was not tackling the right issues or not approaching Committee raised it with him. That incident was an things in the right way—I have indicated some of the indication to us, and a wake-up call among people in challenges that need to be overcome—but that an awful Pakistan, that there really had to be clarity about the lot of development assistance has not achieved substantial right of girls to have an education and the Government’s results. One slightly disturbing thing we were told was full-square backing for that principle. None the less, it that the education programme being pursued by DFID was satisfying to hear that statement from the Prime was quite similar to one pursued by the United States Minister, but it does not remove the fact that the challenges Agency for International Development some years ago. are very real. As we know, Malala’s colleague who was When that programme finished, the benefits fell away shot at the same time has now come to the UK because completely, and we obviously hope that DFID will find she says that her ability to pursue her education in a way of ensuring that that does not happen again. Pakistan has been totally compromised. In our report, the Committee says: The scheme in Punjab that we looked at, which has “In the past, donor money has not been spent effectively in been developed by Michael Barber, is doing extremely Pakistan for a variety of reasons. Corruption is rife in a social good work and is working closely with the Chief Minister, order based on patronage and kinship networks. Pakistan’s rich Shahbaz Sharif, the brother of the new Prime Minister. do not pay taxes and exhibit little interest in improving conditions The good news is that he is staying in post, because and opportunities for Pakistan’s poor.” there was some concern that if he moved, that might That was the most striking and controversial element of compromise the relationship. Good relationships that our report, but I certainly stand by it, as I think all deliver good results are clearly totally satisfactory. The members of the Committee do. However, we compiled problem is that if the relationship breaks down, there is and published our report during the election in Pakistan— not the infrastructure to fall back on, so one hopes that the previous Government had demitted office, and a that good relationship will continue. caretaker Government were in place—and a new A number of things have been said to us about that Government have now come into office. We therefore programme suggesting some aspects are good, but some hope that they will take these issues as both a challenge questionable. The fundamental objective is to ensure and an opportunity to show they mean to take action. that teachers are appointed on merit, that they turn up Taxes are not just a matter of morality and justice—I and teach, and that their pupils also have an attendance will come back to that—but essential to Pakistan’s record. Michael Barber has acknowledged that that is survival. If Pakistan cannot raise its tax base from the sum total of what has been achieved at this stage, below 10%, it will not be able to support its people by which means that the quality of the education still has a providing the basic services they not only have the right way to go. At one particular school we visited, we were to expect, but absolutely need. No aid programme from shown a demonstration lesson. When we sat down at outside can make up that shortfall; if Pakistan does not the back of the class and flicked through the exercise find the resources from within its own, admittedly weak, book, we found that the pages before and after that economy, it will not be able to sustain services—certainly particular lesson were blank. The lesson had been a not with the population growth it faces. show piece; the fundamentals were not there. Clearly, The British Government, aid partners and the IMF that is a real concern. must look Pakistan’s rulers in the eye and ask them Indeed, we have had a follow-up visit from one of our bluntly and frankly why they do not pay taxes in their witnesses, Dr Matthew Nelson of the school of oriental own country and when they will start doing so. It is and African studies, and he raised further points of completely intolerable that British taxpayers should be concern. He does not deny that appointing teachers on funding health and education in Pakistan when the merit is the right objective or that the Chief Minister richest people there contribute absolutely nothing towards and his officials entirely buy into it, but he says that those services and do not use them, because they buy there is plenty of evidence that merit is available to be private education and private health. That is not only a bought, and is being bought on a large scale. He says moral issue, but a fundamental issue of financial survival that it is a good idea to appoint people on merit rather for Pakistan. 341WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 342WH

[Sir Malcolm Bruce] Pakistan must face the reality that unless something changes, India’s GDP per capita is likely to move way This is the first time in the country’s history that a ahead its own, and even Afghanistan might move into a Government have completed their term and a new better position. We must therefore maintain our democratic Government have been elected to step up engagement—that is not negotiable. The Committee and accept their responsibilities. Therefore, unless there approves fundamentally of the priorities that the British is clear evidence of a commitment on the part of Government have set, but Ministers must try harder to Pakistan’s leadership to contribute to their own development ensure that they get the outcomes they want on health agenda, the British Government should not nearly double and education. They should be robust in ensuring that our aid—there is no suggestion that we should cut our further commitment and increased engagement is it—and make Pakistan the biggest single recipient. matched by an increase in the tax base. I have seen a series of e-mails. In the past few weeks, In a sense, we are giving the elite of Pakistan a moral the IMF has been engaged in Pakistan. The country is eyeballing and telling them to demonstrate their willingness looking for further funding, despite the fact that there to participate in the process. The outgoing Parliament is a substantial amount—$10 billion or $12 billion—of voted by an overwhelming majority that it did not surplus deposits in Pakistani banks, which is about believe its Members should pay taxes. I wonder what equivalent to the loan Pakistan is looking for from the the British public would think if we passed such a IMF. In other words, there is some sovereign resource motion here. It is done with a completely innocent face, available in Pakistan. Again, we are not suggesting that but the people in question are much richer than any of the IMF should not engage, but it should make it us—or certainly than most of us—and they stand as absolutely clear that increasing the tax contribution is political leaders, seeking to lead their country presumably part and parcel of the package of agreements. I understand to a better place. I cannot think of any politicians who that IMF officials have maintained a fairly resolute stand in democratic elections and do not offer at least a stance, but I am slightly concerned to hear that the vision and prospects. However, for that to happen, they Pakistani Government’s response has been to journey must play their part and be partners with the people— to Saudi Arabia to see whether they can get funding particularly the poor people—of Pakistan. from that source so that they do not have to meet the I want to make one qualification to what I have said, IMF’s conditions. which I think that the Minister will understand. The small number of people in Pakistan who do pay their That is a sensitive issue, but it must be confronted. It taxes should not be screwed with an increase so that the is made somewhat more difficult by what was, on the people at the other end of the scale need not pay. face of it, not a bad change in the Pakistani Government’s Nothing should be done, either, to increase the burden approach to government. The 18th amendment to the on the poorest of the poor. The target is clearly the constitution devolved the delivery of services to the wealthy elite, who have a contribution to make and four provincial governments. I am a believer in devolution, must make it. and it is probably better to have local government delivering more services, because it is accountable to the I do not apologise for dwelling on those issues, because distinctive provinces of Pakistan. However, if the money they represent a watershed in our relationship with is not raised at either level, devolution is an abdication Pakistan. I want the country to succeed and its people of responsibility; it is basically giving the provinces to have the prospects that they want for themselves. I responsibility without the means to deliver services. If a am happy to have met many Pakistanis here and in formula is not developed to ensure that the money Pakistan who share that vision, but also share the flows, one can imagine what the consequences are likely frustration that for decades they have been stuck in a to be. situation in which their world does not improve, and in which, because of corruption and a lack of commitment There is a significant number of members of the and financial base, they do not get the growth, poverty Pakistani diaspora in the UK, so we thought it was reduction and development that they need and deserve. important to engage with them. I completely recognise I am thrilled that the British Government understand that their perspective of the country they or their parents the commitment, but I hope that they will agree with came from tends to be slightly different from that of the the Committee that to get results we need a robust people who live there. However, they also have a clear relationship. interest, and many make regular visits and have many connections and family ties. The people we met were outspoken in saying that they could play a much more 3.21 pm useful role in ensuring that aid and development spending reached the people it was meant to. Most of them will Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): It is a pleasure to work with only a limited number of partners they feel serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, and to follow they can trust. If anything, members of the diaspora my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm are more outspoken critics of Pakistan than donors or Bruce), who as usual has given the speech that we would others because, as they say, they see what is happening. all want to give, but cannot. I have found the past three years as a member of the Committee, under his The essence of all this is that Pakistan’s stability is chairmanship, to be a delight. I had not been to Pakistan crucial to Pakistan, to the region and to Britain’s substantial before our visit, and my right hon. Friend led the group interests there. At a time when we are gradually disengaging expertly; such things are particularly important when from Afghanistan militarily, although not in terms of one is going to a country such as Pakistan for the first development assistance, we do not need Pakistan to time. We all got back in one piece and in reasonable become a bigger problem than Afghanistan. We need to good humour, which I gather may not always have hold on to our shared interest. happened on such visits in the past. 343WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 344WH

The visit, as well as being my first, was an eye-opener As a result in 2012, when there was an outbreak, no one to the tremendous country that Pakistan is. It is the died, as far as we know—if they did, the number was sixth most populous country in the world, with a population very small. A challenge was met and tackled. of 180 million—it could go well over 200 million by Thirdly, I was encouraged—with the caveats that my 2020—nearly 40% of whom are aged 10 to 29. Of right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon mentioned— course, Pakistan has huge challenges, which it is trying about education. Sir Michael Barber, as I believe the to meet, and we must review its condition in the light of Prime Minister mentioned in the House of Commons them. One is terrorism. Tens of thousands of ordinary on Tuesday following his visit to Pakistan, has done Pakistanis have died in terrorist attacks in the past 10 or excellent work in the Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa 15 years. Members of the International Development education programmes. We visited a new school, a little Committee must always remember when we visit such like one of our new free schools, which was set up on countries—I am sure that this applies to the Minister the voucher system supported by DFID, I am glad to too—that although we may be working with the country’s say. The children who attended that school were almost Government or its members of Parliament, we are exclusively the children of workers at a nearby brick working for the people who, day in, day out, suffer factory. Indeed, some of them had worked at the brick terrible problems such as terrorism and the challenges factory before coming to the school. An enterprising, of low income. I remind the House that as many as wonderful Pakistani woman set up the school using the one in three Pakistanis live on 30p a day, or less; one in voucher system and was enabling a couple of hundred 11 children in Pakistan die before their fifth birthday; children to be educated, albeit at a basic level, at low and half of all the country’s adults—two thirds of its cost in the community, instead of having to provide women—are illiterate, with 12 million children out of labour—often, I am afraid, indentured labour—at the school. Those are the people for whom the UK’s local brick factory.That was possibly the most encouraging international development programme is designed. It is thing I saw on our visit to Pakistan, and the work of true that members of Parliament in Pakistan do not pay DFID enabled it to happen. their taxes, but ultimately our role under the International There was therefore a lot to be encouraged about, Development Act 2002 is to tackle poverty through and to give confidence in the future. However, my right international development. I am glad to say that that is hon. Friend the Member for Gordon has also mentioned fundamentally what DFID does through its programmes the things that give us cause for concern. The first is the in Pakistan. We saw some excellent work. very low level of tax revenue, at less than 10% of GDP, I want first to dwell on positive areas of international and the failure of the wealthiest to pay their share—or, development work in Pakistan. Most of that, of course, even, anything—towards public services. As my right is carried out by Pakistani citizens; we just support hon. Friend said, they do not use those services, but that them in that work. It is often forgotten what huge is not an excuse. There is also financial mismanagement. humanitarian challenges Pakistan has faced in the past We heard about the amount of money that the Pakistan decade. In 2005 the Kashmir earthquake affected Government have in various funds and bank accounts. approximately 3.5 million people. In 2008-09, internal Apparently they have not yet adopted the policy of displacement affected approximately 3 million people, consolidating funds in a few accounts or one account, and the 2010 floods affected 20 million—a third of the as is normal in public financial management. As a population of Britain. Imagine if even that proportion—say, result, there was not as much grip on the public finances a tenth—of our population, which would be 6 million as there might have been. Can the Minister say whether people, were affected by floods. How would we cope? that issue, and indeed the issue of tax revenues, has been We find it a struggle to cope with snow on the railway raised with the Pakistani Government? tracks. They had to cope with 20 million people affected Then, of course, there is the issue of corruption, by floods. In 2011, as an afterthought, 9 million were which comes up time and again. It is something that is also affected by floods, and in 2012, the year when we very difficult to deal with and to speak of. I hope that visited, monsoon floods meant that 3 million people the newly elected Government of Pakistan will tackle needed external support. Often people grow almost corruption, because corruption is anathema to development. weary of hearing such figures, yet the Pakistan Government If a country has a corrupt Government, it will not at national and regional level must deal with such develop. It might get some form of development, but challenges year in, year out. Ultimately it is the Pakistani that development will be wasted, it will be inefficient people who must deal with them, and I am in awe of and the country will not get the kind of development how they do so. that it needs to bring all its people out of poverty. In conclusion, our report on Pakistan was an Secondly, I want to give what I might call a little opportunity—certainly for me—to see for the first time vignette—although it would not be a vignette to the a country that faces huge challenges but that also has people who suffered from the problem in question. The huge opportunities, and one in which Britain has a vital chief Minister of Punjab, Shahbaz Sharif, who has been interest. That interest is not just a strategic one, but re-elected, impressed us with his grasp of matters. We much, much more than that. It is a human interest, not heard that he had personally undertaken 17 Ministries only because of the Pakistani diaspora who make such himself, perhaps showing a lack of confidence in his a wonderful contribution to our country—there are colleagues. He clearly has tremendous energy and abilities. well over a million of them in the UK—but because of In 2011, the year before we were in Pakistan, there was the 180 million Pakistanis, and rising, who are looking an outbreak of dengue fever, which killed 300 people in to their Government and to those other Governments, Lahore alone. He was determined that that should not such as the UK’s, who support their Government, to happen again, and initiated a substantial public health give them the chance to fulfil their talent and to seize programme, getting rid of standing water to remove the the opportunities that a country such as Pakistan must breeding grounds of the flies that carry dengue fever. rightfully seize. 345WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 346WH

Mr James Gray (in the Chair): While the hon. Member number of years. She did a postgraduate degree at York for York Central (Hugh Bayley) collects his thoughts, I university and then returned to the tribal areas of will point out that he has given his apologies in advance Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, where women’s rights are often to me, having been stuck in the main Chamber proposing threatened. She has done some remarkable things, such his own debate. We have plenty of time, so, rather as establishing schools for girls and then standing up to unusually and despite the fact that he was not here in men who threatened to kill her for doing so. She has a Westminster Hall for the early part of the debate, I call very persuasive manner. When we met her on this visit, him to speak. she told us that she had been running a campaign to try to persuade Pakistani society in these conservative tribal areas to recognise that women should have rights of 3.31 pm inheritance. She did that not by demanding those rights Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I am most grateful as a woman, but by seeking to find male community to you, Mr Gray, for calling me to speak. leaders who would make the argument. She had been I will not trouble the Members here in Westminster talking for many weeks with a mullah, who appeared Hall with a long peroration about the wise and thoughtful intellectually persuaded that women should have a right main recommendations made in the report, which I to inherit, but was unwilling to make a statement to that know the Chairman of the Select Committee, the right effect in Friday prayers, which was what she was urging hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce), and him to do. That went on for many weeks and then, other members of the Committee will have spoken eventually, he made the statement. Maryam Bibi asked about. However, there are two particular issues that, as him what had finally changed his attitude, and he said, a member of the Committee who participated in the “Well, you persuaded me early on, but it took a long visit to Pakistan—I have moved on from a debate in the time for me to get my will changed, so that my wife main Chamber about another part of the world—I feel could inherit.” He did not want to call on others to do very strongly about and that I am glad to have the something that he had not done himself. opportunity to raise. Maryam is an extraordinary woman. I hope that she It is quite clear to me why the UK has such an is the sort of person that DFID would consider using as important development partnership with Pakistan; it is an adviser. It is not for me to determine whom DFID because of our history and because of the need for us to selects, but it would be a mistake to think that we can work with the Government of Pakistan to resolve security get to the heart of the problems that Pakistani women problems that threaten both Pakistan and neighbouring face without Pakistani women advising us—not only on countries. Integral to that development process is what the problems are, but on how to tackle them. I empowering women to get an education, play a full role hope very much that the Government will consider that. in society and have their human rights defended. The second issue in Pakistan that I want to discuss, Shortly before we went to Pakistan, we heard about which struck me like a bolt out of the blue, was the the dreadful shooting in that country of Malala, a gross—indeed, grotesque—violation of human rights schoolgirl who was shot simply because she had the that comes from debt bondage. One of our field trips, effrontery to wish to have an education. That event involving the whole Committee on this occasion, was to stunned people around the world and, interestingly, a low-cost private school. Doubtless, there will have changed attitudes in Pakistan considerably. I went with been discussion earlier in the debate about the role that some other members of the Committee—a sub-group—on those institutions play. a field visit to Haripur in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, where we went to a school. It was a Government girls’ secondary After meeting the head teacher and some of the other school, where the girls re-enacted a piece of drama, teachers as we visited the classrooms, we had the asserting, as a consequence of Malala’s shooting, the opportunity to meet some parents. Those parents were right of girls, like boys, to have an education, enter the brick kiln workers. They were very, very low paid and labour force and have professional standing. It was looked down upon by various members of society, and extremely moving. When I talked to parents and teachers were living on the margins of a city in an area where the after the performance—there is a parent-teacher association state had not deigned to provide a school, which was at the school—they were very clear about the fact that why a small private initiative had been set up to provide the shooting of Malala had to change the nature of an education of sorts for their children. A state school politics and society in Pakistan. would not have done any good anyway, because the Following that visit, it struck me that, although the children also had to work in the brick kiln. Consequently, UK is a major aid donor, we do not always listen the private school was arranged so that the children enough to the voices of women in the countries where could come rather earlier in the morning than they we are working. It also struck me that, at the very least would to a state school and so they could leave after in respect of Pakistan, we ought to establish an advisory lunch to do their share of labour in the brick kiln. panel of women to work with our Department for Those women told me that every one of them—every International Development office to ensure that all our one of those parents—was indebted to the brick kiln programmes address the women’s dimension of the owner and that debts ranged from 100,000 rupees to issues that they aim to address, whether it be education 300,000 rupees. Sometimes, they had taken out loans or health care. for things such as weddings, but more often because of When we were in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, we also met injury and because they needed medical treatment. The representatives of a number of Pakistani non-governmental typical earnings for people working in the brick kiln organisations, including a quite inspirational woman, were 350 rupees per week per family—for husband, wife Maryam Bibi, who leads a women’s self-help organisation and two children. Those people owed perhaps up to two called Khwendo Kor. I have known Maryam Bibi for a years’ wages. Such a debt for people on such a low, 347WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 348WH subsistence income is one they will never repay. Indeed, 17.2%, which is obviously welcome. That represents one woman told me that she had inherited her debt progress, but there are still major concerns. The testimony from her husband when he died. of my hon. Friend the Member for York Central about Once someone gets into that kind of debt, there is no the effects on the very poor, particularly women, sums it escape. Those people are illiterate, so even if they wanted up. Some 12 million children are still out of school, to challenge the brick kiln owner over their debt, they which is the second highest population in the world. would not have the skills to do so. One huge value of Pakistan also has one of the lowest levels of female providing education for their children is perhaps that, in participation in the labour market. Some 12,000 women the next generation, it will be less possible for usurious die during pregnancy or childbirth each year, which is moneylenders to pull the wool over those people’s eyes. completely scandalous in a country that could be doing more. We raised that problem with the Chief Minister of Punjab. He told us that the law prevents debt bondage. The right hon. Member for Gordon talked out the His adviser, Zakia Shahnawaz, said that the intention failure of the wealthiest in Pakistan to make a contribution was to introduce a Bill to establish a minimum wage of through taxation to build their own nation, and that 600 rupees and to reinforce the law that ended bonded issue needs to be raised constantly. Addressing it should, labour. I hope that that happens; it is desperately needed. rightly, be a challenge to those people as we challenge If each wife and husband each earned 600 rupees a ourselves to continue to support countries such as Pakistan. week, the children would perhaps not need to work in There is mutual responsibility. the brick kilns as well and could go to school in the As hon. Members are well aware, Pakistan also faces normal way like other children. The debts of those environmental challenges. Humanitarian disasters in people should be written off. Such debts should not 2005, in Kashmir, and in 2010 have cost billions, displaced exist in any civilised society anywhere in the world, but some 20 million people and undermined economic growth. for that to happen we need not just UN resolutions and We need to build resilience through our efforts to ensure outrage expressed in this Palace of Westminster, but that there is proper adaptation and preparation so that practical action to work with such people—the poorest any such future disasters will not cause as much chaos of the poor and the lowest of the low—to give them the and disruption. ability to go to court to challenge what is being done to them, crushing them and their children. The report makes a good point about the demographic challenge. There are threats from security challenges Although the issue exists not only in Pakistan, I arising from counter-terrorism and the long conflict in would like a start to be made there with our Government neighbouring Afghanistan. There are major questions putting together a programme of work to provide a about what will happen following withdrawal from citizens advice service to enable people such as those I Afghanistan, and about its relationship with Pakistan. have talked about to gain their freedom, which is their birthright, but which they are denied. I welcome the points in the report about the role of the British Pakistani community. As we all know, the community has more than 1 million people who can 3.43 pm channel significant influence and resources to their Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): It is a country of origin through trade and investment, and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. who have insights and knowledge that could be shared Once again, I congratulate the right hon. Member for by our Government to play a more constructive and Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce), the Chair of the International positive role than they have been allowed to do. Similar Development Committee, and his team. May I say how practices could happen with other communities in moving I found the speech of my hon. Friend the the UK. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley)? Such speeches As I said in the previous debate, such communities and the work of the Committee say it all about why we make a massive contribution through remittances. In need to continue to speak up for the most vulnerable the case of Pakistan, £627 million was sent in 2010 people in the world and those who are powerless to act. alone. That significant amount of assistance goes directly It is a credit to hon. Members on both sides of the to families to supplement the very small amount of House who are passionate advocates of the development, money that they have, even with international aid efforts. aid and support that go to people in countries such as We must ensure that any change to what banks do does Pakistan that we continue our resolute support for not undermine that effort, because that would force those nations. millions of people in countries such as Pakistan into As we all know, and the Select Committee report poverty. highlights this, Pakistan is making progress, especially The challenges for Pakistan on corruption and tax on the political side. It has successfully transitioned collection have been well described. The Opposition feel from one democratically elected Government to another. strongly that we must look into building strong mechanisms Of course there are challenges, but that is still to be through budget support. Support for tax authorities welcomed. Now is a unique opportunity to see continued will be critical. I hope that the Minister will respond to progress and to work with Pakistan to ensure that some of the points made about specific measures to economic and social development, and the need for build a sustainable process for taxation and revenue, stability, are at the forefront of all our minds and and to prevent avoidance and evasion. Our efforts must interests. be conditional on effective governance, as that is what As the report highlights, and as the right hon. Member our taxpayers expect from us. for Gordon and other hon. Members have said, according We talked a lot in the previous debate about the need to the World Bank, Pakistan saw a decline in poverty to improve health and education, and Pakistan is a case levels between 2008 and 2010 from just under 35% to in point. As hon. Members including my hon. Friend 349WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 350WH

[Rushanara Ali] I hope that the Government take this issue seriously. I worry that they do not always feel at ease with the the Member for York Central mentioned, the major language of empowerment and rights. I hope that when challenge for a country such as Pakistan is protecting the testimonies are heard and explored, and considered the needs of women and minorities. Pakistan’s human alongside the risks to development when there is not a rights challenge is massive. The treatment of particular proper rights and empowerment agenda—a genuine groups, notably women, and incidents such as the high- one, as opposed to rhetoric—people will make a stronger profile case of Malala Yousafzai, who sought her basic case for putting human rights at the heart of the right to an education, are unacceptable. They also do development agenda, rather than treating it as an add-on. not speak for Pakistan’s proud history as a nation. I have faith that the Minister will push his Prime Minister Women played a formative role in the anti-colonial to do so in his role in the high-level panel. The hon. movements of 1947 and subsequently, and Pakistan has Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) made the case human rights lawyers—strong feminists and powerful clearly that the issue of minority rights affects all societies, women—who are working hard to ensure that their especially societies coping with massive development, country is not hijacked by a small minority of extremists. economic and security challenges. We must shore up those women and the male human I conclude with two additional points. Pakistan is the rights activists who are speaking up for all the population country with the fourth highest number of deaths of of their country, including minorities such as Christians children under five. Additionally, in the UN’s report on and Hindus. the global gender gap, Pakistan ranks 133rd out of 135, The British Pakistani community has a critical role to so it is very much at the bottom, although there is no play in supporting Pakistan and working with our reason why it should be there. Pakistan has incredible Government to ensure that Pakistan can be a beacon of people, and especially women, who could be in the economic and social development, and that it can stand driving seat to advance the cause against those issues up for human rights, democracy and the things that that affect women so badly and hold its society back. people fought for when seeking independence from We support the report and tireless work of the members colonial rule. People in Pakistan, like those in the rest of of the International Development Committee. Its timely south Asia, have a proud history that needs to be report comes at an opportune moment, given the new tapped into. I believe that Britain, with its unique yet Government in Pakistan. As aid budgets increase, we often troubling historical role, has a part to play by must ensure that our investment in Pakistan genuinely being a critical friend and supporter of Pakistan as it supports those in need, helps to build people’s resilience, progresses towards further development. protects them from exploitation and abuse, and creates hope and opportunity in a country that could be at the Jeremy Lefroy: Will the hon. Lady give way? heart of economic and social development in Asia. Given the huge markets and economic opportunities Rushanara Ali: I know that the Minister wants us to in China, India, Indonesia and across the region, and press on, but I will, quickly. the economic growth to which we can only aspire, Pakistan has a unique opportunity to advance and to lift millions of people out of poverty, but that requires Jeremy Lefroy: I am most grateful and I shall be brief. leadership, support from us and the international The hon. Lady makes an extremely powerful point community, and a genuine focus on tackling corruption about the importance of protecting minorities. I come and the other issues raised in the report. It also involves from Huguenot stock, and at one point the Huguenots ensuring that the public interest is put at the heart of were minorities in this country. She will know about the Pakistan’s development, not the interest of an elite huge contribution that minorities make to a country’s minority, some of whom do not even bother to pay economic development, and that a country that does their taxes. not cherish its minorities is shooting itself in the foot. 4pm Rushanara Ali: I could not agree more. The hon. The Minister of State, Department for International Gentleman will be aware that my constituency is the Development (Mr Alan Duncan): DFID warmly welcomes home of the Huguenot population that came to Britain, the Committee’s report on Pakistan. It has made some which has a proud history. Perhaps he will go to the helpful recommendations, and I am pleased to say that, Huguenot festival—or perhaps he has. I am pleased to as our reply makes clear, we agree with pretty much all have discovered that connection. of them. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the role As the Committee recognises, the need for our of minorities. The British Pakistani community and development support is clear. Pakistan is the sixth most minorities make a vital contribution to this country. We populous country in the world, with an estimated have our own challenges, as we saw with the backlash population of 180 million, and it is growing fast. The following the terrible murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. population is likely to increase by half as much again by We must constantly work to protect minorities in this 2050. One in three Pakistanis live on 30p a day or less, country, Pakistan and other parts of the world, and and as the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow that is why we must ensure that in the post-millennium (Rushanara Ali) has just made clear, one in 11 children development goals discussions on the high-level panel, die before their fifth birthday. Half of all adults and two we all place human rights, and the rights of women and thirds of women are illiterate, and 12 million children minorities, at the heart of debates about the future of are out of school. Internal instability and sectarian development. If we do not, all our efforts and attempts violence have seen more than 30,000 Pakistani civilians to invest will be undermined. killed since 2001, with many more left injured. 351WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 352WH

Those enormous challenges are not entirely official level, and we are clear on what needs to happen. insurmountable, and there is some reason to be optimistic Pakistan has one of the lowest tax takes in the world, for the future. Pakistan has just witnessed historic elections, which has to change. which mark the first time a democratically elected civilian Early signs from the new Government are positive. In Government in Pakistan have served their full term and their recent budget, they committed to increase their then handed over to another through credible elections. tax-to-GDP ratio, which is currently less than 10%, to In the face of sustained extremist violence, the people 15% by 2018, and they took some initial steps towards sent a clear message that they expected change. They that. I assure hon. Members that our Prime Minister wanted improved security, better services, more jobs raised that matter forcefully during his visit to Pakistan and better economic prospects. Both federal and provincial last week. We are already providing advice on how they government have made ambitious commitments to deliver can deliver that commitment, and we will continue to against those expectations. push for early, bold action, starting from the top. The The UK’s development programme is well placed to richest must pay their fair share. Our Prime Minister help. Since the Government made the decision to increase had positive conversations with Prime Minister Nawaz support to Pakistan in 2010, UK aid has helped 1.9 million Sharif on that issue during his visit, and my right hon. children in school, provided cash transfers to more than Friend the Secretary of State for International Development 2.5 million people and provided life-saving support to has also raised it in her early discussions. millions of people during the devastating floods in 2010 As the Committee recommended, we are actively and 2011. Ultimately, though, only the Government of engaged with the IMF and other international finance Pakistan have the responsibility and wherewithal to institutions to ensure that any future IMF support is solve Pakistan’s problems. predicated on meaningful economic reforms, which, as As the Committee set out, our development support my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) must be dependent on policy reform that fosters increased said, must include a firm grip on public finances. As economic and social development. That is why UK negotiations with the IMF proceed, we are exploring development programmes with the Government of Pakistan how best the UK can provide assistance alongside other proceed only on the condition: that the Government of international partners. That includes considering the Pakistan provide the bulk of the funding and commit to possibility of offering Pakistan expertise and advice increase their spending; that they deliver on agreed from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, but we are results and reforms; and that UK public money is clear that co-ordinated action through an IMF programme, protected from corruption. Those benchmarks are at rather than individual donors setting their own reform the heart of all our joint programmes with both the conditions, offers the best long-term prospect for securing federal and provincial government. reform. It is absolutely essential that the new Government I think that approach is working. Through our education take steps to address corruption, because corruption programme, we have helped the government of Punjab limits economic growth and erodes confidence in the appoint 81,000 new teachers based on their ability to state. Our governance work already focuses on such teach, not on their connections. Measures to increase corruption. In Punjab, for example, we are supporting both student and teacher attendance have led to 1 million the Government to curb low-level corruption by officials, more children and 35,000 more teachers attending school and to improve service delivery as a result. Every day, every day. We have helped the government of Khyber 30,000 people are providing feedback on government Pakhtunkhwa province adopt new budgeting procedures, services, via their mobile phones for instance, and action which have reduced the cost of building a classroom by is being taken against those accused of corruption. We more than 40%. I appreciate what the right hon. Member look forward to discussing what more we can do with for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) says about merit, the new Government as they develop their own priorities attendance and standards overall. If he would like more in that area. information on the detail of what we are doing, we would of course be very pleased to oblige. Central to addressing corruption is effective governance that ensures the rule of law and empowers citizens—what At national level, we have helped to generate significant our Prime Minister calls the “golden thread.” The increases and improvements in the Government’s income Committee suggests that that is lacking in governance support programme, which is a financial safety net for work, and I want to make it clear that it runs through the poorest and most vulnerable. The new Government our portfolio. Our new sub-national governance have announced a 25% increase in the programme’s programmes will operate across two provinces and benefit budget, which is a commitment of almost £500 million more than 7.5 million people, thereby improving the in the coming year. The risk of corruption has also been ability of government to deliver key services, including reduced—thus trying to ensure that the programme security and justice. Now the new Government are in reaches those who need it most. Over the coming months, place, we will review our approach with them to identify we will hold formal talks with the new federal and opportunities where more can be done. provincial governments as soon as we can to agree joint We are supporting civil society to ensure it is able to priorities. Central to those discussions will be economic hold the Government to account and to demand change, reform, particularly on tax. most recently through our support for the elections, The Committee urged us to do all we can to encourage which helped to increase voter turnout significantly and an increase in tax revenue, which is exactly what we are to provide election monitoring. As the hon. Member for doing. We agree that, without more revenue, the Pakistani York Central (Hugh Bayley) mentioned, supporting Government cannot meet the needs of their growing women will also remain, and must remain, a fundamental population. We have had initial discussions with the element of our work. Pakistan is one of the most new Government on tax issues at both ministerial and dangerous places in the world to be a woman. To improve 353WH Pakistan4 JULY 2013 Pakistan 354WH

[Mr Alan Duncan] We will continue to do all we can to ensure that they take decisions that will lead to a brighter future for their our efforts, we will take up the Committee’s people. recommendation to establish a gender advisory group, and will look to include Pakistan in the wider girls and 4.11 pm women advisory group being established by DFID. Sir Malcolm Bruce: I thank the Minister for a succinct The right hon. Member for Gordon mentioned the and positive response to the debate, which shed a clear health sector. In recent years, service provision has light on the Government’s determination to take the changed significantly through the devolution of opportunity to turn things around. It is important that responsibilities from federal to provincial government, the new, democratically elected Government—the first as both the Committee and the Independent Commission to secure the transition—have the responsibility and an for Aid Impact have noted. In response to that change, opportunity to make the changes. My only caution is we have significantly redesigned our support for health. that, while I welcome their commitment to increase the Let me assure the House that the redesign has addressed tax take to 15%, such commitments have been made in the concerns expressed by ICAI and the Committee, the past and not delivered. We clearly need positive and has taken on board the lessons from the previous measures for that to happen. federal approach. DFID’s new provincial health and I completely agree with the Minister that the most nutrition programme supports local governments to effective way to achieve things is through donor manage both community midwives and lady health co-ordination, because all the donors working together workers, so ensuring that their remits are complementary. and singing from the same hymn sheet is more likely to Our funding will also only be provided when there is get a co-ordinated response. I welcome what he said clear evidence that results are being achieved. In a about bringing together lady health workers and community period of substantial political change, we will continue midwives, which seems to be something that could be to review and adapt our programmes, in the light of the done, so it is great to hear that it is being done. We can new Government’s priorities and the reforms that they do it ourselves as well, but I hope that the Minister will implement. convey to Sir Michael Barber that he is doing an excellent job of work, although there are some concerns I have taken on board the impassioned plea made by about merit meaning what it says—perhaps something the hon. Member for York Central for the need to could be done about that. address the scourge of debt bondage among Pakistan’s helpless and ultra-impoverished people. Similarly, I have Overall, we want to share with the people of Pakistan taken on board the important comment made by the an absolutely joint commitment saying that they deserve hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow about a future that is a lot better than the recent past. We have empowerment, especially of women and girls—something to ensure that the aid community can find the partners— that is always incorporated from the start in our partners in Pakistan—to achieve that. As the Minister programmes, not only in Pakistan but elsewhere. rightly says, without a functioning partner outside agencies ultimately cannot deliver. The reason why we put the To summarise, at last count DFID and the Government caveat that we did in the report is that, willing as we may agreed with 16 out of the 17 recommendations made by be to support the poor people of Pakistan, the effort the Committee, and we only partially disagreed with the will only work if their leaders want it to work and are 17th. We also agree that UK development support must prepared to work with us. I am, however, encouraged by be predicated on the commitment of the Pakistani what the Minister has had to say. I hope that the next authorities to implement policy changes that will foster few months in particular will see some positive progress economic and social development. I am pleased to see in that direction. that the new federal and provincial governments have Question put and agreed to. already made positive commitments to deliver economic, tax and social sector reforms. They have a real opportunity 4.13 pm to set Pakistan on a path towards stability and prosperity. Sitting adjourned. 59WS Written Statements4 JULY 2013 Written Statements 60WS Written Statements COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Red Tape Challenge Thursday 4 July 2013

TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): Further to the CABINET OFFICE statement made by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), the Minister with responsibility for planning on, 31 January Security Vetting Appeals Panel (Triennial Review) 2013, Official Report, columns 52-53WS, I would like to inform the House about the further consideration that has been given to the proposal to enable local authorities The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster to provide building control services across local authority General (Mr Francis Maude): I am today announcing boundaries. This arose as part of my Department’s the triennial review of the Security Vetting Appeals housing and construction theme for the red tape challenge Panel (SVAP). Triennial reviews of non-departmental when some local authorities indicated that they would public bodies (NDPBs) are part of the Government’s like to provide building control services across boundaries commitment to ensuring that NDPBs continue to have to provide additional choice and consistency to small regular independent challenge on their remit and governance businesses. arrangements. The outcome is that we consider that local authorities The review will be undertaken by an independent in England may use the general power of competence external reviewer, Sir Alex Allan. provisions in the Localism Act 2011 to carry out such The review will challenge the continuing need for the services outside of their local authority boundaries if function of the panel and its form. If it is agreed that it they become approved inspectors. This opportunity should remain as an NDPB, the review will consider its should improve competition in the building control control and governance arrangements to ensure that it sector and help drive up standards. We will make local is operating in line with the recognised principles of authorities aware of the provision in the Act to do this. good corporate governance. To become an approved inspector local authorities The aim will be to complete the review in September. will need to set up a trading company which can then apply to the construction industry council for approval as an approved inspector. Local authority companies would only be able to act as approved inspectors in England outside of their local authority boundaries. TREASURY We will be providing further guidance to local authorities considering taking up this opportunity.

Employee-ownership Sector CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): At Budget 2013, the Government announced that they Leveson Update would provide £50 million annually from 2014-15 to support the employee-ownership sector. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport The Government are today publishing a consultation (Maria Miller): On 18 March 2013, we reached agreement document setting out proposals for two new tax reliefs about how we could deliver a new system of independent to encourage, promote and support indirect employee- and robust self-regulation for the press as recommended ownership structures. One of the reliefs is for capital in the report of Lord Justice Leveson. I want to update gains tax on the sale of a controlling interest in a the House on developments since then. business into an indirect employee-ownership structure. The second is an exemption, up to a certain threshold, The cross-party agreement, which continues to have from income tax and employer and employee national cross-party support, included a royal charter to set up a insurance contributions on a bonus or equivalent payment verification body for a new independent press regulator; paid to employees of an indirectly employee-owned elements of legislation needed to secure the incentives structure. for newspapers to participate; and a “no change”provision that protects the charter from future political interference. The document outlines the Government’s intentions We have delivered those incentives through the provisions for these new reliefs and asks questions about the included in the Crime and Courts Act 2013 and the proposals on which the Government invite comments. Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013. The Government intend to legislate for these tax On 30 April 2013, the Press Standards Board of reliefs in Finance Bill 2014. Finance (PressBoF) formally petitioned the Privy Council The document is available at: Office with an alternative draft royal charter. When any https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/supporting-the- petition for a royal charter is received by the Privy employee-ownership-sector. Council Office (PCO) it asks for an initial view from 61WS Written Statements4 JULY 2013 Written Statements 62WS relevant Government Departments. This guides whether Kilmarnock is an existing Defence site and was included the royal charter should go forward for Privy Council in the baseline of current Army Reserve sites in calculating consideration. On this occasion, Government have also the numbers of sites referred to in my statement. It will, taken advice from Counsel to ensure the procedure they in future, be occupied as an Army Reserve site. Arguably, follow is robust. we could have included it as a “new” site and reduced I will be requesting that the petition is added to the the baseline by one. The outcome is the same; that list of Privy Council business. Scotland will have 46 Army Reserve sites in the future. Cross-party discussions on the royal charter concluded With regard to my answer to my hon. Friend the on 18 March and a copy of that charter was deposited Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), 3 July in the Libraries of both Houses. Work has continued to 2013, Official Report, column 944, I can confirm that prepare the charter published on 18 March for formal there will be a Royal Naval Reserve presence at Barry submission to the Privy Council. Following the vote in and in Cardiff. the Scottish Parliament on 30 April, discussions have Finally for clarity, in relation to my response to the been held with the Scottish Government about the hon. Member for Dudley North, (Ian Austin), 3 July technical changes necessary to ensure its application in 2013, Official Report, column 939, regarding the Royal Scotland. The Commissioner for Public Appointments, Mercian and Lancastrian Yeomanry, I can advise the who carries specific responsibilities under the charter, House that, in addition to the regimental headquarters, has also been consulted. Finally, a legal technical review to be known as the Scottish and North Irish Yeomanry, of the charter has been undertaken as part of an overall there will also be a new headquarters squadron formed assurance process. I will be publishing an updated version in Edinburgh; it is proposed that this is named HQ of the cross-party charter in due course. (Lothians and Border Horse) Squadron. We continue to support implementing the system of tough, independent self-regulation that Lord Justice Leveson recommended that protects a free press and DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER delivers for the public and, especially those who are victims of press abuse. The press are making progress Funding of Political Parties on setting up their self-regulator, which is an integral part of the process outlined by the Leveson report. The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Following the publication of the 13th report from the Committee on Standards in Public Life (CSPL) in November 2011, DEFENCE I convened discussions between the three main political parties to discuss possible reforms to party funding. Ofsted Annual Report (Armed Forces Initial Training) Representatives met seven times during 2012 and 2013. Discussions were based on the principles identified by the CSPL, including reform of donations and spending, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark how to deal with affiliate bodies and the efficiency and Francois): Today Ofsted publishes its fifth report on balance of existing state funding. welfare and duty of care in armed forces initial training, I am disappointed that, as on previous occasions, copies of which I have placed in the Library of the there has been no agreement between the three parties House. Following visits to 10 armed forces initial training on beginning party funding reform. establishments between October 2012 and February 2013, Ofsted reports that recruits and trainees feel safe Although it is now clear that reforms cannot go and that their welfare needs are largely being met. forward in this Parliament, I hope that the principles explored can inform further discussions on this topic While all the locations visited by Ofsted are judged as and that the parties will then return to this issue after “adequate” or better, including those which are judged the next election. as outstanding, there is still room for improvement and Ofsted has made a number of recommendations that The Government have decided to proceed with sensible will enable establishments to reduce wastage rates and and necessary improvements to the controls on third improve procedures to share best practice in welfare parties which campaign at general elections to ensure and duty of care and for teaching and learning across that they are fully transparent and not allowed to their activities. distort the political process. These proposals will go ahead as part of a package of measures in a Bill which The armed forces are determined to ensure that the will include provisions for a lobbying register. We will initial training environment is supportive of the needs introduce the Bill before the summer recess. of those new to the service and the particular focus of the Ofsted inspection provides additional detail on which to reflect and review the effectiveness of our training ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS regimes. Bovine Tuberculosis Reserve Basing Statement Clarification The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): Bovine tuberculosis Further to my announcement of 3 July about Reserves (bTB) is the most pressing animal health problem in the Forces and my associated written ministerial statement, United Kingdom. The crisis facing our cattle farmers, Official Report, column 49WS, about “Army Reserve their families and their communities cannot be overstated. (Structure and Basing)” I wish to clarify three points: Bovine tuberculosis is a devastating disease which threatens 63WS Written Statements4 JULY 2013 Written Statements 64WS our cattle industry and presents a risk to other livestock, HEALTH wildlife species such as badgers, domestic pets and humans. Strengthening Corporate Accountability This was once a disease isolated to small pockets of the country. It has now spread extensively through the west of England and Wales. The number of new herd The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman breakdowns has doubled every nine years and in the Lamb): I am announcing today the publication of the last decade we have slaughtered 305,000 cattle across consultation on strengthening corporate accountability Great Britain. In 2012 in England alone, over 5.5 million in health and social care. bTB tests were performed leading to the slaughter of “Transforming care: A national response to 28,000 cattle with the disease costing the taxpayer nearly Winterbourne View hospital”, published in December £100 million. In the last 10 years bTB has cost the 2012, identified weaknesses in the system of accountability taxpayer £500 million. It is estimated that this will rise where leaders of health and care organisations are not to £1 billion over the next decade if the disease is left held to account for the delivery of poor-quality care unchecked. services or for allowing a culture where neglect and The Government are today publishing a consultation abuse are rife. The report committed the Department of on a draft strategy for achieving official freedom from Health and the Care Quality Commission (CQC) to bTB in England. The strategy, which has been developed look at existing powers and options to improve corporate by the Animal Health and Welfare Board for England accountability for safety and quality in providers of and the Bovine TB Eradication Advisory Group for health and adult social care registered with CQC and to England, draws upon successful approaches to eradicate bring forward proposals for consultation in spring 2013. bTB around the world, including Australia, New Zealand, The consultation document sets out proposals to Michigan in the Unites States of America and the introduce a new registration requirement covering the Republic of Ireland. These demonstrate the importance fitness of directors of boards and to improve the way of applying stringent cattle control measures in combination that existing sanctions are used to prosecute providers with tackling any significant reservoir of infection in for failings in the quality and safety of care. “A new wildlife, whether it is water buffalo, brush-tailed possums, start: a consultation on changes to the way CQC regulates, white-tailed deer, or badgers. An additional factor which inspects and monitors care” published on 17 June also has contributed to their success is the fact that their sets out further details on these issues. The consultation programmes are either led by industry or delivered by will inform the new draft regulations which will be set Government and industry, with both parties contributing out by the Department in the autumn and which we to the cost. propose to lay before Parliament at the end of 2013. The consultation will run until 6 September 2013 and The strategy builds upon the measures applied currently applies to England only. “Strengthening corporate including testing of cattle and other animals, additional accountability in health and social care: A consultation” controls in affected herds, and controls to address the has been placed in the Library of the House. Copies are reservoir of infection in badgers. The Government are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to proposing to work in partnership with the industry to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. It is also develop risk-based packages using all available tools to available at: protect low-risk areas of England, stop the geographical spread of bTB and bear down on the disease in endemic https://www.gov.uk/government/ areas. publications?departments%5B%5D=department-of- health. As well as using available tools the Government will continue to develop new ones. I have already achieved a major success in securing a concrete road map from the HOME DEPARTMENT European Commission on the deployment of cattle vaccination. I am committed to meeting the minimum Armed Forces Family Migration time scale but that is at least 10 years away.The Government will also continue to invest in the development of an oral badger vaccine and in new diagnostic tests for The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): tuberculosis in cattle and badgers, which could pave the This statement informs the House of changes to the way for alternative approaches. immigration rules affecting members of Her Majesty’s forces and their families, which will be laid before The final element is a consideration of options for Parliament in September to come into force on 1 December governance, delivery and funding of the strategy. The 2013. Full details are included in a statement of intent New Zealand approach in particular, demonstrates the which I have published today. Copies are available in the success of industry-led eradication strategies co-financed Library of the House and on the Home Office website. by industry and Government. Changes to the immigration rules affecting non-European Tackling bTB will require long-term solutions and economic area (non-EEA) nationality family members considerable national resolve. The strategy will deliver of British citizens and persons settled here were my ambition to reverse the rising trend in the worst implemented on 9 July 2012 as part of the Government’s affected areas of the country well before the end of this overall programme of reform of immigration routes. decade, achieve official freedom from bTB for parts of Those changes aimed to ensure that non-EEA family England on the same time scale and thereafter progressively members seeking to live in the UK will not become a rid the whole of England of bTB over 25 years. Our burden on the taxpayer and will be able to integrate cattle industry and countryside deserve no less. effectively in British society. 65WS Written Statements4 JULY 2013 Written Statements 66WS

Under temporary transitional arrangements, non-EEA visa. This will remove the financial disadvantage currently family members of British citizens serving in Her Majesty’s faced by those who are overseas where application fees are forces were exempted from the family immigration rules more expensive than in the UK. changes pending a review of the rules affecting all Time spent overseas on an accompanied posting will be non-EEA dependants of Her Majesty’s forces personnel, regarded as time spent in the UK for the purpose of calculating including family members of Foreign and Commonwealth the residence required for settlement. citizens serving in Her Majesty’s forces. That review has The new rules will also remove some further anomalies now taken place and has produced a single set of rules and practical obstacles inherent in the current rules. covering the non-EEA family members of British service Where a serving Foreign and Commonwealth member personnel and also the families of Foreign and of Her Majesty’s forces naturalises as a British citizen, Commonwealth citizens serving in Her Majesty’s forces, their family will be able to continue to progress to including Gurkhas discharged since 1 July 1997. The settlement; they will no longer need to switch immigration new rules will cover the dependants of service personnel route because their sponsor’s immigration status has currently dealt with under parts 7 and 8 of the immigration changed. Bereaved non-EEA partners of Foreign and rules. They are intended to align the treatment of non-EEA Commonwealth citizens serving in Her Majesty’s forces family members of service personnel with the general will be treated in the same way as bereaved partners of approach to family immigration. At the same time they British personnel and will be able to apply for settlement aim, so far as possible and appropriate, to treat all immediately if the sponsor dies in service, even if the non-EEA dependants of service personnel in the same death is not directly attributable to service. And alongside way, irrespective of the immigration status of the sponsor. the new rules, we will deliver faster grants of settlement And finally, they make special arrangements, in certain for service personnel on discharge, count reservist time respects, to cater for the situations brought about by on deployment towards residency requirements in the overseas postings which are a feature of service life. applicant’s substantive immigration status, and introduce With effect from 1 December 2013, the following an armed forces specific application form to facilitate rules will apply to armed forces families: identification and processing of applications from the Service personnel who wish to sponsor their non-EEA armed forces community. dependants to enter or stay in the UK must meet a minimum Transitional arrangements will apply to family members income threshold of £18,600 for a partner, £22,400 for a who already hold valid leave as a dependant of a service partner and child and £2,400 for each additional child. person, and to those who submit an application before A basic English language requirement will also apply to 1 December 2013. These are set out in full in the all non-EEA partners seeking to enter or stay in the UK. statement of intent. This will be in line with the current such language requirement which applies to the partners of civilians and of serving Taken together, these measures form a balanced set British personnel. of provisions which reflect our overall approach to Non-EEA partners of British and of Foreign and delivering a robust and sustainable immigration system, Commonwealth citizens serving in Her Majesty’s forces will while taking account of the particular circumstances of serve a five-year probationary period before being eligible to the armed forces community. apply for settlement. To qualify for settlement, non-EEA partners and children between the ages of 18 and 65 will have to demonstrate a knowledge of language and life in the UK. This will involve Drug Paraphernalia passing the “Life in the UK” test and holding an intermediate level English language speaking and listening qualification. This is a new, more robust, requirement which is being The Secretary of State for the Home Department introduced across the immigration system from 28 October (Mrs Theresa May): The Government have accepted the 2013—as set out in the Home Office statement of intent on advice of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs “Knowledge of Language and Life in the UK for Settlement (ACMD) to allow for the lawful provision of foil by and Naturalisation” published on 8 April 2013 and available at: drug treatment providers subject to the strict condition that it is part of structured efforts to get people into https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment data/file/182545/statement-of-intent-koll.pdf. treatment and off drugs. Dependants of serving British citizens, most of whom are The Government’s 2010 Drug Strategy, “Reducing already subject to a knowledge of language and life in the demand, restricting supply, building recovery: supporting UK requirement, will switch to the new requirement from 28 people to live a drug-free life” is ambitious in its aims October. Dependants of Foreign and Commonwealth citizens and takes a balanced approach. At its core is recovery— serving in Her Majesty’s forces, who are not currently subject enabling individuals to live free from drug dependency, to the requirement, will be required to meet it from 1 enabling them to rebuild their lives and address the December. criminality and health issues associated with drug abuse. The new armed forces family rules take full account of the principles set out in the armed forces covenant, The available evidence shows that the provision of which states that service personnel and their families foil can encourage people to take their first steps into should face no disadvantage as a result of service. treatment, reducing the immediate harm and facilitating Accordingly, the new rules will incorporate the following the onward journey towards recovery and abstinence. provisions specifically designed to accommodate overseas By lawfully providing foil under strict conditions, we postings: also tackle the significant health risks associated with injecting behaviours, including the transmission of Applications may be made from overseas for all categories dangerous blood-borne viruses. of leave under the armed forces rules. The duration of a settlement visa under the armed forces The Government will introduce legislation to ensure rules will be extended to five years to enable a dependant to foil is only offered by drug treatment providers as part apply for settlement without having to renew their initial of structured efforts to get individuals into treatment, 67WS Written Statements4 JULY 2013 Written Statements 68WS on the road to recovery and of drugs. We will also put in The test review was commissioned to consider alternative place mechanisms to carefully monitor and evaluate ways of providing a single event practical motorcycle take-up, implementation and adherence to the conditionality test that can be carried out on the road in a way that over the next year. would maintain riding standards, protect safety and increase accessibility of the test for candidates, while Identity and Passport Service meeting the requirements of the European legislation. The test is currently carried out in two separate The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): modules. Module 1 is undertaken off-road on a purpose- The Identity and Passport Service—now renamed Her built manoeuvring area and tests the higher speed and Majesty’s Passport Office—annual report and accounts slow manoeuvres. Module 2 is the practical on-road ride. 2012-13 has been laid before the House today and The research, which ended in March 2013, used test-ready copies are available in the Vote Office. learners to complete the proposed on-road manoeuvres and the existing module 1 manoeuvres under mock test UK Border Agency conditions. Direct comparisons were made between the on-road and module 1 test. The research concluded that an on-road test: The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): would result in a substantial increase in the number of The UK Border Agency annual report and accounts incidents during tests; 2012-13 has been laid before the House today. Copies increased the duration of the test, which would result in will be made available in the Vote Office. higher costs for both candidates and the Driving Standards Agency; JUSTICE resulted in significantly more faults than the off-road test; and Coroners and Justice Act 2009 was likely to encounter technical difficulties in identifying suitable sites with appropriate signage, and suitable speed measurement equipment. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice I have therefore concluded that a single event on-road (Mrs Helen Grant): Today I have published the motorcycle test would not be in the interests of motorcycle Government’s response to the consultation on our plans test candidates or their trainers and examiners and have for implementation of the Coroners and Justice Act decided to conclude the motorcycle test review. 2009, including new coroner rules and regulations and The research findings have been published today on new statutory guidance for bereaved families. While we the gov.uk website. received a range of views on the consultation, there was This does not mean that the review has been in vain. broad consensus on most of the key issues. It has provided a welcome opportunity for the Department We have made some changes to the detail of our of Transport and the Driving Standards Agency to original proposals to reflect the comments we received work with stakeholders to look at how the module 1 test and I will lay in Parliament today the final versions of could be improved. The Driving Standards Agency the rules and regulations that will underpin our reforms made changes to the module 1 test by reordering the to the coroner system. We intend to bring the changes manoeuvres and introducing greater flexibility in the into force on 25 July. way that riders speed is assessed. These changes were The aims of the 2009 Act are to put the needs of welcomed by both examiners and trainers and have bereaved people at the heart of the coroner system; for resulted in fewer incidents, particularly during the hazard- coroner services to be locally delivered but within a new avoidance exercise. framework of national standards; and to enable a more Since the review started, the Driving Standards Agency efficient system of investigations and inquests. I am has implemented a range of improvements for stakeholders confident that our reforms will enable these aims to be and customers taking tests in Great Britain. Test provision met. has been increased by opening three additional sites for The first Chief Coroner of England and Wales, His module 1 tests and introducing module 2 tests at an Honour Judge Peter Thornton QC, with whom we have additional eight driving test centres. More motorcycle been working very closely in developing our proposals, examiners have been made available following a successful will now oversee implementation of the reforms. recruitment campaign; and improvements to the booking Copies of the consultation response paper have been system has resulted in more test bookings being made placed in the Libraries of both Houses, in the Vote available at times and dates that provide better access Office and in the Printed Paper Office. The document is for motorcycle trainers and candidates. also available online, at: http://consult.justice.gov.uk/ The Government will continue to seek out new ways digital-communications/coroner-reforms. of improving motorcycle training and tackling motorcycle casualties, so that motorcycle incidents continue to fall. TRANSPORT WORK AND PENSIONS Motorcycle Test Review Workplace Defined-contribution Pension Schemes

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport The Minister of State, Department for Work and (Stephen Hammond): Following research into the safety Pensions (Steve Webb): I am pleased to announce that and feasibility of a single event on-road motorcycle today the Government will publish a call for evidence test, I am today announcing the conclusion of the into quality standards in workplace defined-contribution motorcycle test review. pension schemes. 69WS Written Statements4 JULY 2013 Written Statements 70WS

Automatic enrolment will lead to 6 million to 9 million Charges are one important aspect of this. On 1 July I people newly saving or saving more, primarily in laid draft regulations to prevent the use of consultancy defined-contribution pension schemes. Coupled with charges in automatic enrolment schemes. The Government the introduction of a system of automatic transfers also plan to publish a consultation on charges this between workplace pension schemes, it is more important autumn, following the Office of Fair Trading’s investigation than ever that workplace pensions deliver a good experience into the workplace defined-contribution pensions market. for all their members. This consultation will set out proposals on charges, including for introducing a charge cap. While most schemes offer a good deal to savers, I am The Pensions Bill currently before Parliament includes concerned there may be some—now or in the future—that provision to specify minimum legislative standards do not deliver the standards that should be expected. for workplace money-purchase schemes, as part of the Unlike other financial products, people who are Government’s proposed system of automatic transfers. automatically enrolled or automatically transferred into Responses to the call for evidence will form an important a workplace pension will not have made an active part of the development of a set of minimum standards choice about which scheme to join. In addition, the that all such schemes will have to meet. In particular, we long-term nature of pensions means it may not be clear are seeking evidence and views on scheme governance, how good an outcome a scheme will deliver for members default strategies, administration and record keeping, until they have paid into it for many years. It is therefore and scale as these are the areas we are considering for particularly important that sufficient protections are in minimum legislative standards. place to ensure that schemes are run in a way that is I will place a copy of the call for evidence in the beneficial for members. The Government want to ensure Libraries of both Houses. The call for evidence will also that every defined-contribution scheme used for workplace be available on the gov.uk website later today at the saving delivers value for money and meets some essential following address: https://www.gov.uk/government/ minimum legislative standards. publications. 713W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 714W Written Answers to British Overseas Territories Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Questions Exchequer what steps he plans to take to ensure that the Overseas Territories comply with the standards of beneficial ownership agreed at the June 2013 G8 Thursday 4 July 2013 Summit; and if he will make a statement. [163209]

Mr Gauke: International standards on the disclosure of company ownership already exist and are set by the INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Financial Action Task Force (FATF). The Overseas Territories are held to account through regular assessments Palestinians against these standards. On 15 June 2013, the Overseas Territories committed Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for to produce action plans on beneficial ownership, setting International Development what assessment she has out the concrete steps they will take to ensure greater made of the Palestinian Authority’s payment of salaries clarity about who really owns, controls, and benefits to Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. [163329] from companies and legal arrangements in their jurisdictions. Lynne Featherstone: I refer the hon. Member to the The Government will continue to work in partnership answers given on 31 January. 2013 Official Report, with the Overseas Territories to help them take the column 943-44W and 18 March 2013, Official Report, necessary steps to produce and implement their action column 428-429W. plans. This will help ensure they are prepared for the next round of FATF assessments, which begin in 2014. Serco Business: Government Assistance Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much her Department Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the currently spends on contracts with Serco; and how Exchequer what recent steps he has taken to support much was spent in each year since 2008. [162940] small businesses. [162869]

Mr Duncan: The following table provides details of Mr Gauke: At Budget, the Government announced a departmental expenditure with Serco since 2008. new £2,000 Employment Allowance for small business and charities that from April 2014 will reduce their employer national insurance bills. Up to 1.25 million Amount (£) businesses will benefit with around one third of all employers taken out of paying employer NICs altogether. 2008-09 0 In January the annual investment allowance was increased 2009-10 0 ten-fold from £25,000 to £250,000 for two years. This 2010-11 1,764.86 provides a valuable cash flow benefit that will directly 2011-12 0 help around 90,000 businesses, and is likely to be of 2012-13 0 most help to small and medium-sized businesses. Further, the Bank of England’s Funding for Lending Scheme is encouraging more lending to the UK economy, including providing strong incentives to banks to boost TREASURY lending to small businesses. The Government is also creating a Business Bank to support the development of Average Earnings diverse finance markets and bring together the management of existing schemes into a single, commercially-minded institution. Richard Burden: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent comparative estimate he has made of the rate of increase of average earnings and Business: Loans the consumer price index. [163211] Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sajid Javid: In the three months to April 2013 total what the 12-month lending growth to all small and average weekly earnings increased by 1.3% on the year, medium-sized enterprises, as defined by the series which and CPI inflation increased by 2.4% over the year to appears in Chart B from the April 2012 edition of the April. However, the best way to deal with today’s cost- Bank of England’s Trends in Lending publication was of-living challenges is to have paid employment. In 2012 in each month from January 2009. [162336] the number of people employed in the UK increased faster than most of the UK’s major competitors, including Greg Clark: The 12-month growth in lending to the US, France, Germany, Japan and the euro area as a SMEs was published in the Bank of England’s April whole. As a result, real household disposable income 2012 Trends in Lending publication and is available on rose by 1.4% in 2012. its website, for each month from September 2009 to 715W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 716W

February 2012. This data is no longer published. However, Greg Clark: The Financial Conduct Authority’s review the Bank’s Money and Credit publication provides into the mis-selling of interest rate hedging products is more recent data on lending to SMEs. now underway and will cover around 40,000 cases. Published data show that the rate of contraction of The banks have agreed to prioritise the cases of those net lending to SMEs has slowed down, while gross businesses facing financial difficulty and to stop the lending to SMEs increased since August 2012 when the payments on these products for such businesses. Funding for Lending Scheme was announced. The The chief executive officer’s of each of the banks extensions made to the Funding for Lending scheme in participating in the review have personally committed April 2013 focus on strengthening incentives to lend to that, except in exceptional circumstances such as, for SMEs. example, where this is necessary to preserve value in the customer’s business, they will not foreclose on or adversely Connaught Asset Management vary existing lending facilities, without obtaining the customer’s prior consent. Bill Wiggin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Public Expenditure what investigations HM Revenue and Customs plans to make into the Connaught Asset Management Limited Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the over alleged fraudulent activity; and what investigations Exchequer if he will publish a statement of funding his Department has already made on this matter. policy for the devolved administrations including [162992] comparability factors following his spending review statement of 26 June 2013. [163292] Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is legally prohibited from discussing the tax affairs of Danny Alexander: As set out in the spending round identifiable businesses. document, full details of the comparability factors used in determining allocations can be found in the Statement Section 18 of the Commissioners for Revenues Customs of Funding Policy published in 2010. Act 2005 imposes a duty of confidentiality upon officers of HMRC which means they are unable to disclose Public Sector: Redundancy Pay information which relates to functions of HMRC. This includes any specific action taken in response to information Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Chancellor of the provided. Exchequer what the total cost to the public purse is of (a) voluntary redundancies in the public sector, (b) Devolution compulsory redundancies in that sector and (c) redundancies in that sector brought about by employment contract changes since May 2010. [163305] Margaret Curran: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will place in the Library any concordats Danny Alexander: The Treasury does not hold this which his Department or the public bodies for which he information. is responsible have with the devolved administrations. [163157] Tiuta

Danny Alexander: The Memorandum of Understanding Bill Wiggin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Supplementary Agreements, agreed in September what investigations HM Revenue and Customs plans to 2012, set out principles which underlie the relationship make into Tiuta plc and its subsidiaries over alleged between the UK Government and the devolved fraudulent activity; and what investigations his Department Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. has already made on this matter. [162991] These documents are available in the Library. Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is The Treasury in addition has agreed bilateral concordats legally prohibited from discussing the tax affairs of for handling of procedural, practical or policy matters identifiable businesses. with counterparts in the devolved Administrations of Section 18 of the Commissioners for Revenues Customs Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Copies of the Act 2005 imposes a duty of confidentiality upon officers documents are already in the Library. of HMRC which means they are unable to disclose We will check whether public bodies have concordats information which relates to functions of HMRC. This with the devolved Administrations and these, or links to includes any specific action taken in response to information them, will be placed in the House Library in due course. provided. VAT: Public Sector Interest Rate Swap Transactions Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Guto Bebb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer (1) what recent assessment he has made of (1) what estimate he has made of the number of jobs the potential use of VAT avoidance schemes in the lost within businesses adversely affected by the sale of public sector; and if he will make a statement; [163225] interest rate swap products; and if he will make a (2) what recent assessment he has made of the number statement; [163367] of NHS trusts in England receiving professional advice (2) what estimate he has made of the number of on reducing their VAT liability; what discussions he has businesses adversely affected by the sale of interest rate had with the Secretary of State for Health on this issue; swap products; and if he will make a statement. [163368] and if he will make a statement. [163226] 717W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 718W

Mr Gauke: The Government keeps the tax system Working with the relevant stakeholders, the Department under review. HMRC will robustly challenge tax avoidance and the Highways Agency will define the detailed scope schemes and artificial arrangements that are designed and finalise the timings of these specific studies. The to reduce the tax liability. study outputs will inform the nature and scope of There is no information available in relation to the future enhancements on the route. number of NHS trusts in England receiving professional advice on reducing their VAT liability. Billing HM Treasury Ministers are regularly in contact with Ministers from other Departments in relation to tax Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport issues. what the average cost to his Department was of processing the payment of an invoice in the latest period for which figures are available; and what proportion of invoices settled in that period his Department paid (a) electronically TRANSPORT and (b) by cheque. [162640]

A27 Norman Baker: The average cost of processing the payment of an invoice for the Department for Transport and its six executive agencies during the last financial Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for year, 2012-13, is £6.55. Transport which stretches of the A27 running through West Sussex are categorised as (a) severe congestion, In determining the average cost of processing an (b) regular congestion, (c) moderate congestion and invoice, the cost is calculated by taking the direct costs (d) occasional congestion according to his of the staff involved, and dividing it by the total number of invoices paid. Department’s forecasts up to 2040. [163325] The average proportion of invoices settled Stephen Hammond: The Government’s recently electronically and by cheque for the Department is: published document ’Investing in Britain’s future’: Electronic: 89.7% https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investing-in- Cheque: 10.3% britains-future included a map of England’s Strategic Road Network High Speed 2 Railway Line and a forecast of the potential congestion by 2040. This map was produced using outputs of the Department Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for for Transport’s National Transport Model (NTM). Transport what assessment he has made of the potential The NTM is designed to forecast long-term trends in effect on the (a) frequency, (b) regularity and (c) traffic, congestion and emissions at a high level across speed of passenger rail services on the North East the country. Despite the NTM performing well at this high Coast mainline of the (i) construction of and (ii) level, less confidence can be given to forecasts on specific introduction of rail services on High Speed 2. [163048] stretches of road. Robust traffic and congestion forecasts at a detailed level would require specific local area Mr Simon Burns: HS2 Ltd has undertaken a high modelling. In addition there is uncertainty around future level study into the implications of running on the east levels of traffic and congestion due to future growth in coast mainline between Church Fenton and Newcastle. population and the economy. However, a magnified At this stage, we do not anticipate that construction of version of the map that shows the NTM’s projected HS2 will affect the frequency, regularity or speed of congestion in the morning peak along the A27 in West services on the ECML although there could be some Sussex in 2040 has been placed in the Libraries of the localised impacts around the link to the classic network House. at Church Fenton. On introduction of the rail services on HS2, there are Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for not likely to be any impacts on the speed of passenger Transport with reference to the Report by HM Treasury, services between Church Fenton and Newcastle, albeit Investing in Britain’s Future, published June 2013, Cm that services which run on the high speed network south 8669, what the level and estimated completion date of of here will benefit with significant journey time reductions improvements to the A27 running between Southwick to London and Birmingham as well as the intermediate Tunnel and West Worthing will be. [163326] stations in the east midlands and South Yorkshire. Stephen Hammond: It is not possible to provide the By providing new capacity for long distance interurban information requested as the details of potential services, HS2 offers opportunities to improve frequency schemes on the A27 in this location are yet to be and regularity of services to Newcastle from London determined. and Birmingham from capacity released on the classic network. As part of this Government’s commitment to future infrastructure investment it set out that it would identify and fund solutions to a number of the most Legal Costs notorious and longstanding road hotspots, initially through feasibility studies, that would look at problems Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for and solutions in a number of locations. These locations Transport how much his Department spent on external included the A27 corridor on the south coast, which lawyers’ fees in the last year for which figures are would include the area around Worthing. available. [162520] 719W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 720W

Norman Baker: The information requested, for the Following the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’s statement financial year 1 April 2012 to 31 March 2013, can be of 27 June 2013, Official Report, commons 465-73, found in the table below. These figures have been “Investing in Britain’s Future”, which committed to extracted from the Department’s central finance funding the M54 to M6 Toll Link Road subject to systems and those of its Executive Agencies, where that finalising options and agreement on developer contributions, information has been held in an appropriate format the Highways Agency will progress this and the other and where it has been possible to identify fees for legal schemes committed to in the June statement and will consultancy and services separately from other costs. make its plans known in due course. These fees do not include services provided by other government or public bodies, for example the Treasury Mobile Phones Solicitors Department. Further information, other than that described Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport above, could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. which companies supply (a) mobile telephones and (b) Budgetary responsibility for legal consultancy is largely mobile data services to his Department. [162694] delegated to policy teams which are individually responsible for expenditure. Norman Baker: Suppliers of mobile telephones and data services to Department for Transport and its six £ Executive Agencies are shown below: DfT Central Agencies

Costs for Legal 11,982,668 3,049,096 Mobile data Consultancy & Services Agency Mobile telephone providers providers

DfTc Vodafone Excalibur Vodafone By way of comparison for the financial year 2009/10, Communications O2 the table below shows expenditure recorded for Orange external legal consultancy and services for the central Driving Standards Vodafone Vodafone/EE Department and Executive Agencies, taken from data Agency published for the 2009/10 Public Sector Procurement Driver and Vehicle Vodafone/Orange Vodafone Licensing Agency Expenditure Survey. Highways Agency Vodafone/O2 Orange/EE Maritime and Vodafone/EE EE £ Coastguard Agency DfT Central Agencies Vehicle Certification Vodafone Vodafone Agency Costs for Legal 12,699,268 13,713,464 Consultancy & Services Vehicle and Operator EE Vodafone/EE Services Agency

M54: M6 Toll Network Rail

David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport (1) what resources his Department has what discussions he has had with (a) the Office of Rail committed to the development of the M54 to M6 toll Regulation and (b) Network Rail regarding the alliance link road; [162898] formed between employees of Network Rail, Laing (2) when he will be able to publish draft route O’Rourke, VolkerRail and Atkins to carry out work on options for the M54 to M6 toll link road. [162900] rail infrastructure in Staffordshire; how many Network Rail employees are working under this arrangement; Stephen Hammond: The Chief Secretary to the and what steps partners in such alliances are legally Treasury’s statement of 27 June 2013, Official Report, required to undertake to (i) license and (ii) register these columns 465-73, “Investing in Britain’s Future”, models of working. [162882] committed to funding the M54 to M6 Toll Link Road subject to finalising options and agreement being Mr Simon Burns: In close consultation with the reached on developer contributions. Office of Rail Regulation, Network Rail introduced the concept of ‘alliancing’ in 2011, to find innovative and The Highways Agency will progress this and the cost effective ways to successfully deliver the Stafford other schemes committed to in the statement and will Area Improvements Programme. Network Rail then make its plans known in due course. actively engaged with the supply chain to develop the concept. David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Formed from Network Rail (both as client Transport what recent discussions his Department has and delivery agent), VolkerRail, Laing O’Rourke had with the M6 toll road operator on the development and Atkins, all parties are co-located in an integrated of a link road to the M54. [162899] team, with all taking an equal share of the risk and the reward. The alliance is also actively incentivised to Stephen Hammond: In recent months meetings have continually review and revise its costs, working towards been held between the Department and Midland further efficiencies. The commitment to partnership Expressway Ltd (“MEL”) to discuss the M6 Toll. The working is reflected in the staffing, with an even split of contribution from MEL to the M54 link has been part representatives from the four partners across the core of these discussions although there has been no change team of circa 80. To enable all four parties to operate as to the position agreed in 2006. an alliance, a distinct legal organisation was created 721W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 722W with all necessary approvals in place and compliant Rescue Services: Belfast within the existing statutory and regulatory framework. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 25 June 2013, Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 161W, on rescue services: Transport what assessment he has made of how Belfast, whether watch managers at MRCC Belfast partners in the alliance formed between Network Rail, were consulted on the decision to alter the risk-assessed Laing O’Rourke, VolkerRail and Atkins intend to staffing level at MRCC Belfast. [163293] achieve projected savings from Network Rail’s budget for the Stafford Area Improvement Programme. Stephen Hammond: Decisions about risk assessed [162883] staffing levels are matters for rescue centre and coastal safety managers. As part of that process, discussions Mr Simon Burns: The Government supports the routinely involve watch managers, including those at principle of partnership working between Network MRCC Belfast. Rail and its delivery partners to secure key projects and outcomes more efficiently than would otherwise be Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for possible. The Staffordshire Alliance is one element of Transport pursuant to the answer of 25 June 2013, the rail industry’s commitment to partnership working Official Report, column 161W, on rescue services: to reduce the costs and meet the challenges set out by Belfast, what the current risk-assessed staffing level at the McNulty report. By working towards a single, MRCC Belfast is; and what the risk assessed staffing collaborative contract based around shared values and level prior to 11 March 2013 was. [163294] behaviours, the Alliance has been able to achieve significant savings when compared with traditional Stephen Hammond: The current suggested risk assessed methods of contracting. Through direct engagement level (high season) for MRCC Belfast is six watch-keepers with the supply chain, from tender through to contract for weekdays and weekend days and nights, and five for award; initial savings of circa 10% against a budget of weekday nights. Prior to the Maritime and Coastguard £255million have been made. Agency’s internal meeting on the 11 March 2013, the Now post contract award, the alliance through an forecast risk assessed level for the new combined area ongoing programme of innovation and cost control is during the high season was seven watch-keepers for looking to deliver further savings across the lifecycle of weekdays and weekend days and nights, and five for the Stafford Area Improvements Programme. This weekday nights. The high season figures were developed process is closely scrutinised by Network Rail and the before the transfer of operations for wider area working Office of Rail Regulation (ORR). The ORR has across MRCC Clyde, MRCC Stornoway and Belfast, actively approved the use of alliances and has made and reviewed in light of experience and completion of them part of its funding proposals for Network Rail the technical improvements. from 2014 to 2019. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Press: Subscriptions pursuant to the answer of 25 June 2013, Official Report, column 161W, on rescue services: Belfast, what criteria Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport were used to determine the alteration of the risk-assessed how much his Department spent on newspapers, periodicals staffing level at MRCC Belfast. [163295] and trade publications in the last 12 months. [162658] Stephen Hammond: The criteria used were consistent Norman Baker: The Department for Transport and with the current risk assessment process that was five of its Executive Agencies has spent £76,108 on introduced in 2006 using historic incident data relating newspapers, periodicals and trade publications in the to time and type of incident. This provides a suggested last 12 months. watch keeping complement. This compares to an equivalent spend of £267,642 in Roads: Construction the 2009-10 financial year. The Driving Standards Agency could only provide the figure at Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for disproportionate cost. Transport what the (a) length of scheme, (b) total estimated cost, (c) contribution set aside from the Railways Government, (d) expected contribution from local government, (e) expected contribution from the private Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for sector and (f) expected contribution from tolling is of Transport what assessment his Department has made each road scheme announced in the Infrastructure Review. of the potential effect on railway extensions on [163215] woodlands and the environment. [163131] Stephen Hammond: It is not possible to provide the Mr Simon Burns: Railway extensions, whether information in the format requested. promoted by the Government, Network Rail or others, The Government set out its commitment to future must meet the appropriate legal requirements under the infrastructure investment in the Command Paper environmental impact assessment regulations. Where ‘Investing in Britain’s future’ in June 2013. In terms an environmental impact assessment is required this of our national road network, Government has set out will include an assessment of the railway on the plans to treble today’s levels of investment in major environment, including woodlands. projects by the end of the decade. Tables A.3, A.4 and 723W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 724W

A.5 in Annex A of the Command Paper sets out the Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State full pipeline of road projects that this investment will for Transport pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2013, cover. Official Report, column 593W, on shipping: crew, for We need to finalise the details for some of the scheme what reasons data on indicative projections of seafarer options and to determine the delivery programme for numbers did not appear in the 2012 edition of his the schemes announced. As part of devising the delivery Department’s annual UK seafarer statistics; and for programme, decisions will be made on the specific levels what reasons indicative projections of the number of of funding on a scheme by scheme basis. UK seafarers based on current recruitment and retention rates in the industry were not contained in Shipping: Conditions of Employment that document. [163191]

Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Stephen Hammond: Indicative projections of seafarer how many (a) shipping companies and (b) maritime numbers were not published in the UK seafarer statistics crewing agencies have been issued with Maritime Labour 2012 due to an ongoing methodological review of the Convention compliance certification by the Maritime projections. The methodological review will assess whether and Coastguard Agency to date. [163248] the assumptions used to project seafarer numbers, based upon past recruitment and retention rates are robust. Stephen Hammond: 226 ships operated by 52 companies Projections of seafarer numbers are not National Statistics. have undergone inspections by the Maritime and Shipping: Qualifications Coastguard Agency to date, for verification of compliance with the Maritime Labour Convention (MLC). Upon UK ratification of the MLC these vessels will immediately Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for be issued with Maritime Labour Certificates. Transport what the average annual course fees are for deck and engine officer qualifications. [163579] 27 recruitment and placement agencies have undergone inspections for verification of compliance with Standard Stephen Hammond: This information is not held centrally. A1.4.5 of the MLC and will be issued with Certificates Nautical colleges make a commercial decision on the of Compliance on UK ratification. fees they charge for deck and engineering qualifications. Shipping: Crew A list of approved nautical colleges can be found on the Maritime and Coastguard Agency’s website at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/workingatsea/ Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State mcga-trainingandcert/ds-stc-usefulcontacts/ds-stc- for Transport pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2013, externalorgs-colleges.htm Official Report, column 593W, on shipping: crew, if he will take steps to ensure that indicative projections of Sick Leave UK seafarer (a) officer and (b) rating numbers appear in the 2013 edition of his Department’s annual UK Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for seafarer statistics. [163190] Transport how many days on average staff of his Department in each pay grade were absent from work Stephen Hammond: Indicative projections of seafarer as a result of ill health in each of the last 12 months. numbers were not published in the UK seafarer statistics [162590] 2012 due to an ongoing methodological review of the projections. Depending on the outcome of that review, Norman Baker: The following table shows the we plan to publish projections of seafarer numbers in information requested for the Department for Transport, the annual UK seafarer statistics for 2013. including its six executive agencies:

2012 2013

Grade June July August September October November December January February March April May

PB1 / 0.45 0.58 0.58 0.59 0.62 0.68 0.53 0.64 0.56 0.64 0.64 0.56 AA

PB2 / 0.69 0.75 0.71 0.71 0.82 0.85 0.75 0.78 0.66 0.68 0.65 0.65 AO

PB3 / 0.59 0.76 0.65 0.63 0.70 0.78 0.59 0.71 0.59 0.59 0.59 0.59 EO

PB4 / 0.37 0.50 0.46 0.42 0.42 0.53 0.52 0.57 0.43 0.47 0.35 0.29 HEO

PB5 / 0.20 0.26 0.22 0.31 0.30 0.30 0.25 0.31 0.27 0.26 0.25 0.23 SEO

PB6 / 0.15 0.23 0.16 0.21 0.24 0.35 0.32 0.37 0.28 0.26 0.30 0.24 G7

PB7 / 0.22 0.22 0.24 0.21 0.16 0.17 0.13 0.17 0.17 0.13 0.12 0.20 G6

SCS 0.14 0.04 0.04 0.02 0.02 0.12 0.01 0.01 0.12 0.18 0.13 0.06

DfT all 0.52 0.62 0.57 0.57 0.63 0.69 0.58 0.64 0.54 0.56 0.53 0.51 725W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 726W

Staff The Department is committed to investing in its staff and ensuring people have the skills they need to perform their job effectively. We actively encourage staff to take Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport five days training a year through initiatives including how much his Department spent on (a) recruitment the civil service’s Campaign for Learning programme. agency fees, (b) outplacement agency fees for displaced or redundant staff and (c) staff training in each of the Consideration is also given as to whether the intended aims of training and development can be delivered by last 12 months. [162622] different means such as workplace meetings or electronically. All training is delivered in accordance with Cabinet Norman Baker: The information requested can be Office Learning and Development controls. found in the following tables: Tolls (a) Recruitment agency fees in each of the last 12 months £ Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 Transport (1) what his policy is on the tolling of existing roads; [163213] June 19,553 July — (2) what criteria have been used to assess whether existing roads being enhanced should be tolled for August — future use. [163221] September — October 120,162 Stephen Hammond: The Government has made a November 10,000 clear commitment not to toll existing road capacity and December 33,286 this has not changed. We have always said we would look at schemes which would fund significant new 2013 capacity through tolling. There will be cases where the January 8,610 combination of the significant expense of the scheme February 12,672 and the distribution of the benefits means that it is fair March 12,036 that users meet some of the costs of the scheme, rather April 57,892 than general taxpayers. This would be in very limited May 62,313 circumstances where schemes deliver new roads or transform Total1 336,504 an existing road into an entirely new route beyond all 1 Total figure includes an annual training spend by Vehicle and recognition and there is a strong economic and commercial Operator Services Agency (VOSA). There is no monthly breakdown case for a contribution from tolling. available for their data. Transport: Finance The Department for Transport has strict controls for the process of filling its vacancies, and the use of Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for recruitment agencies. Recruitment agencies are used Transport what steps he will take to ensure that money only in the recruitment of senior civil service appointments allocated by his Department to the single local growth or for highly specialist roles, where the Department fund will be spent on transport. [163353] finds it hard to attract quality candidates. The Department did not spend any money on Norman Baker: Funding for transport within the outplacement agency fees for displaced staff or redundant Single Local Growth Fund is not ring fenced for transport staff in each of the last 12 months. purposes only—in line with the recommendations of (c) Staff training in each of the last 12 months Lord Heseltine’s report “No Stone Unturned”. £ However, we will be expecting the strategic economic plans put forward by Local Enterprise Partnerships 2012 (LEPs) to reflect a balanced package of measures— June 153,192 including appropriate transport projects for their particular July 329,325 circumstances—and capital funding beyond 2015/16 is August 252,377 provided to enable long term planning of priority transport September 321,773 investments in local areas. October 417,149 Local Transport Bodies (LTBs) are currently drawing November 326,491 up prioritised list of major local transport projects to be December 311,440 funded, under devolved arrangements, from 2015/16. Our expectation is that, as LTB’s plans should have 2013 been developed in close collaboration with LEPs, the January 393,902 LEP strategic economic plans should either include February 293,027 schemes identified in these prioritised lists or set out March 350,486 clearly why the LEP has taken a different view from the LTB. April 115,080 May 363,203 Officials and Ministers from the Department for Total1 4,071,796 Transport will be fully involved in the assessment of the 1Total figure includes an annual training spend by Vehicle and Operator strategic economic plans that will be produced by LEPs Services Agency (VOSA). There is no monthly breakdown available and the associated decisions on Growth Deals and the for their data. award of Single Local Growth Funding. 727W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 728W

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Vacancies Transport (1) what input his Department will have into the allocation of monies from the single local growth Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for fund; [163354] Transport what his Department’s vacancy rate was in (2) by which criteria bids for the single local growth 2012-13; and what vacancy rate has been assumed for fund will be judged; and what role his Department will 2013-14. [162676] play in the allocation of funding. [163355] Norman Baker: The Department for Transport does not record a staff vacancy rate and no rate has been Norman Baker: Guidance on the Growth Deals that assumed for Business Planning purposes for 2012 -13. the Government will negotiate with each Local Enterprise However, staff turnover in the financial year 1 April Partnership will be published shortly. This will include a 2012 to 31 March 2013 was 6.24% and it remains at a high level summary of the criteria to be used in awarding similar level so far in 2013/14. funding from the Single Local Growth Fund The Department has strict controls to the process of Officials and Ministers from the Department for filling the resulting vacancies. External recruitments are Transport are fully involved in the development of this only considered for approval if they are deemed to be guidance and will also participate fully in the assessment frontline, or other business critical e.g. for safety, in line of the strategic economic plans that will be produced by with Cabinet Office guidance. Local Enterprise Partnerships and the associated decisions on Growth Deals and the award of Single Local Growth Funding. WALES Some elements of the Single Local Growth Fund, Serco including some Local Authority Transport Majors funding, will be allocated on a formula basis. Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much his Department currently spends on Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport contracts with Serco; and how much was spent in each with reference to his Department’s announcement of 27 year since 2008. [162947] June 2013, whether the indicative allocations from the local authority transport major projects fund to local Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office has not held contracts enterprise partnerships have been superseded by those with Serco since 2008. monies placed in the single local growth fund in the Social Networking 2013 Spending Review. [163357] Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: No. The Local Authority Transport Wales if he will list all Twitter accounts for which Majors funding that has been included within the Single officials of his Department (a) have had and (b) Local Growth Fund comprises 3 elements: a guaranteed currently have responsibility for (i) monitoring and (ii) minimum funding to be allocated to each Local Transport updating. [163561] Body/Local Enterprise Partnership area on a per capita formula basis shortly—as previously planned; committed Mr David Jones: I refer the hon. Member to the funding for schemes already approved by the Department, answer given on 19 June 2013, Official Report, but to be delivered partly or wholly after 2015; and column 706W. further funding to be allocated to Local Enterprise Partnerships on a competitive basis through their Growth Deal negotiations with Government. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Broadband: Rural Areas

Travel Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Sport on the digital communication requirements of Transport how much his Department has allocated to smart meters; and what assessment he has made of the spend on cycling and active travel in (a) 2013-14, (b) mobile and broadband communications infrastructure 2014-15 and (c) 2015-16. [163068] required in rural areas. [163386]

Norman Baker: The Department has allocated £177m Gregory Barker: Officials from the Department are in of funds in 2013-14 and £127m of funds in 2014-15 to regular contact with those in the Department for Culture, the Local Sustainable Transport Fund (LSTF) where 95 Media and Sport to ensure coordination of our policies of the 96 LSTF projects have cycling or walking elements in relation to communications infrastructure for rural in them. This is on top of the £36.8m allocated in areas. 2013-14 to go towards improving cycle safety and A competitive procurement process is under way for infrastructure, linking communities, rolling out cycle the communication service requirements of smart meters. rail and creating a cycling legacy in our Cities and A number of technologies have been proposed. Depending National Parks, a further £25.2m will go to this in on the solution selected for each region, these may, or 2014/15. Departmental funding allocations for 2015-16 may not, make use of parts of the mobile telephony are still being developed, however we are working to infrastructure in which investment is being supported ensure the best result possible for cycling and walking. by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. 729W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 730W

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for (FITs) scheme, Renewable Heat Premium Payment (RHPP) Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has and Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI). had with mobile network operators and broadband The RO is administered by Ofgem and provides market companies on the coverage of mobile signal and broadband based support for large scale deployment of renewable and communication requirements of smart meters in energy generation. Ofgem publishes an annual report rural areas. [163387] outlining support provided under the RO, which can be viewed online at: Gregory Barker: Officials in the Department are http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/ conducting competitions to put in place a communications RenewablObl/Pages/RenewablObl.aspx system for smart metering to reach as many households Ofgem also administers the Feed-in Tariff (FITs) in Great Britain as possible. A number of technologies scheme which supports small scale low carbon generation. have been proposed in response to these requirements Details regarding the cost of the FITs scheme can be including solutions using mobile telephone networks. found in the FITs annual report, produced by Ofgem, The technology or technologies selected for each of which can be viewed online at: three regions, as well as the extent of coverage achieved, will be determined by the outcome of these competitions http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/fits/ad/ which is expected to be announced in the late summer. Pages/ad.aspx The RHPP administered by the Energy Saving Trust Energy: Meters (EST) provides one off payments to householders to help them buy renewable heating technologies—including solar thermal panels, heat pumps and biomass boilers. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Further details regarding the RHPP, including amounts Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has paid out under the scheme, can be viewed online at: had with energy companies on the digital communication http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/ requirements of smart meters. [163388] Getting-money-back/Renewable-Heat-Premium-Payment- Phase-2 Gregory Barker: The Department is working with The RHI provides support for renewable heat energy suppliers and network operators to roll out technologies. The RHI was launched in November 2011 smart gas and electricity meters across Great Britain by with a scheme for the non-domestic sector that provides 2020. As part of this we have developed and consulted payments to industry, businesses and public sector upon the communication requirements for the messaging organisations. Ofgem publishes data on the amount system that will connect smart meters with the business paid under the RHI on a daily basis, which can be systems of energy suppliers and network operators. viewed online at: These consultations have included detailed discussions with energy suppliers and network companies about https://rhi.ofgem.gov.uk/Public/ their business requirements. ExternalReportDetail.aspx?RP=RHIPublicReport In addition, there are assorted grant schemes (existing Offshore Industry and historic) that support the deployment of renewables. For example, the Low Carbon Buildings Programme, the Low Carbon Communities Challenge, the Deep Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Geothermal Challenge Fund, the Environmental Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department Transformation Fund and others grants to support the is taking to reduce emissions from the upstream oil and development of innovative energy technologies. gas industry. [163160] Social Networking Michael Fallon: Government is determined to maximise overall economic recovery of UK oil and gas and Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for minimise any waste of these national resources. To this Energy and Climate Change if he will list all Twitter end we restrict, via a formal consenting procedure, accounts for which officials of his Department (a) have flaring and venting of gas from UK oil and gas fields, to had and (b) currently have responsibility for (i) monitoring the minimum levels that are technically possible and and (ii) updating. [163550] economically sensible. In addition onshore flaring operations require a permit from the relevant environmental Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and agency under the Environment Agencies Environmental Climate Change has only ever had one Twitter account Permitting Regulations 2010. for which officials have responsibility for monitoring and updating. Renewable Energy

Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much his Department ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS invested in (a) solar, (b) wind, (c) hydro, (d) marine, (e) biomass and (f) geothermal energy in each of the Rural Businesses last five years. [162373] 10. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State Michael Fallon: The Department does not record its for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what measures financial support for renewable technologies in the format are in place to help people who live and work in the requested. Support for renewable generation is provided countryside to grow their businesses and create rural under the Renewable Obligation (RO), Feed-in Tariff jobs. [163124] 731W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 732W

Mr Heath: Stimulating economic growth is the Dairy Products: Ireland Government’s top priority. We are working to ensure rural areas contribute to and benefit from that growth. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for To support rural businesses and create jobs, we are Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions investing in superfast broadband and mobile infrastructure; he has had with his counterpart in the Republic of piloting rural growth networks to test different ways of Ireland on the effects of the National Dairy Council of helping rural businesses stimulate economic growth; Ireland’s new labelling programme on the ability of and boosting key sectors such as tourism. We are also farmers in Northern Ireland to export their products increasing export potential and unblocking barriers to for sale in the Republic of Ireland. [161516] growth by removing red tape. Mr Heath: Following my visit to Northern Ireland Flood Defences recently I drew this matter to the attention of the Secretary of State. He hopes to meet Simon Coveney, 12. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Irish Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he in the near future and will discuss with him trade plans to take to improve engagement between landowners between Northern Ireland and the Republic. and the Environment Agency in relation to flood defences. [163126] Floods: Insurance

Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency is working Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for to improve its engagement with landowners and others. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to It will be publishing an improved flood asset maintenance his Department’s report on Securing the future availability protocol in the autumn, incorporating clear principles and affordability of home insurance in areas of floodrisk, of engagement. Where the Environment Agency is published on 27 June 2013, how many Band H properties considering changing its maintenance activities, it will in England are estimated to be within the (a) 200,000 hold discussions with landowners and other local interests homes at high-risk of flooding and (b) 500,000 properties about its plans. Such discussions will help to identify to be included with the Flood Re model for flood opportunities for landowners to undertake maintenance insurance. [163042] activities and how these can best be supported. Richard Benyon: Properties in Council tax Band H in Pollinators England represent approximately 0.6% of the total households in England and are those valued at or above 14. Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for £320,001, based on the estimated sale price on 1 April Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress 1991. At current prices Band H houses may cost £900,000 his Department has made on developing an holistic or more (based on cumulative growth in Office of National Statistics average house prices since 1991). strategy on pollinators. [163130] An estimated 2,000 Band H households in the UK Mr Heath: DEFRA delivers a wide range of policies are thought to be at a significant level of flood risk. The and initiatives that protect bees and other pollinators. Government proposes that Flood Re should target support However, we recognise the need for an integrated and towards lower income households. Band H households holistic approach to tackle the pressures on pollinators. would be excluded to avoid these high value properties That is why the Secretary of State has asked for an enjoying disproportionate benefit at the expense of urgent review of policy and evidence to be carried out, lower income households. culminating in a National Pollinator Strategy and a A six week consultation seeking views on the proposed renewal of commitments to these species by both approach for flood insurance, including whether Band government and non-government organisations. H properties should be excluded, is now open.

Animal Welfare Polyisobutene

Kwasi Kwarteng: To ask the Secretary of State for Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans he Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment has to introduce a regulatory body to monitor the he has made of the effects on fish and other wildlife of treatment of animals in addition to the provisions in the discharge of polyisobutene from ships in early the Animal Welfare Act 2006. [162873] 2013. [161134]

Mr Heath: There are already a number of areas Richard Benyon: DEFRA and its delivery bodies where the welfare of animals is regulated by bodies. For worked with the Maritime Coastguard Agency (MCA) example the selling of pet animals, the breeding and and other organisations such as the RSPCA, RSPB, selling of dogs and the boarding of cats and dogs are all and the Devon and Cornwall. Wildlife Trusts, to monitor regulated by local authorities. In addition, the Animal the impacts of the serious polyisobutene related incidents, Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency safeguards in February and April 2013 along the South Coast of the health and welfare of animals through research, England, in particular on sea bird populations. surveillance and inspection and is responsible for enforcing For example, the Environment Agency carried out farm welfare legislation. There are no proposals to initial sampling and analysis of material taken from introduce any additional regulatory body in respect of affected birds on behalf of the MCA. The aim of this the welfare of animals. work was to try to help the MCA identify what the 733W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 734W likely pollutant was in the early stages of the first spill. The Prime Minister: Information about all official During the second incident they undertook limited social media networks used by my office can be found water quality sampling at a number of beaches but on the No. 10 website. found no evidence that bathing water quality had been Social media communications are handled by my adversely affected. office in accordance with the published moderation While the incident is unlikely to have had significant guidelines on the gov.uk website. adverse effects on the functioning of the marine ecosystem or on commercial fisheries it has caused unnecessary Trident suffering and is highly regrettable. DEFRA is continuing to work closely with the Department for Transport and the MCA to prevent similar incidents from occurring in Mr Jenkin: To ask the Prime Minister when the the future. Government intends to make the public version of the Cabinet Office review of alternatives to Trident available to Parliament. [163334] PRIME MINISTER The Prime Minister: A public version of the Trident Bilderberg Group Review will be made available to Parliament in due course. Mr Meacher: To ask the Prime Minister whether (a) he, (b) the Chancellor of the Exchequer and (c) the Minister without Portfolio attended the recent Bilderberg conference at Watford in an official capacity; and whether ATTORNEY-GENERAL any previous attendance at Bilderberg conferences has been in an official capacity. [163352] Duwayne Brooks The Prime Minister: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given to him by the Minister without Portfolio, Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for whether the Crown Prosecution Service has ever been Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), on 10 June 2013, Official Report, made aware that there was a possibility that undercover column 25. police officers were involved in gathering evidence used Food Banks in the 1994 prosecution of Duwayne Brooks for criminal damage. [162202] Gordon Banks: To ask the Prime Minister with reference to his oral answer of 27 February 2013, Official Report, The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service column 306, when he will (a) respond to the petition of (CPS) has advised that under its retention policy the the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire on original file in this case would have been destroyed, and food banks and (b) answer the hon. Member’s subsequent it is not able to provide this information. However, the email correspondence of 27 February 2013 and 12 CPS will co-operate fully with the Operation Herne March 2013 relating to that issue. [163627] investigation referred to in the Home Secretary’s statement of 24 June 2013, Official Report, column 25-27. The Prime Minister: A reply was sent to the hon. Confirmation of the position might become possible as Member on 14 March 2013. a result of that investigation. Ian Livingston Vending Machines Helen Goodman: To ask the Prime Minister (1) what Ian Livingston’s intended ministerial responsibilities Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Attorney-General how are; [163227] many vending machines in his Department’s premises (2) if he will publish a full declaration of Ian contain snack foods that are high in calories and low in Livingston’s interests and assets. [163228] nutritional value. [163207] The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the The Solicitor-General: On premises controlled by the press notice issued by my office on 19 June which can be Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) there are three vending accessed online at machines that contain snack foods. There are also an www.gov.uk additional five vending machines that contain snack Copies have been placed in the Library of the House. foods located in other properties occupied by the CPS, On appointment to Ministerial Office, Ian Livingston which are provided by the premises’ major occupiers or will be complying with the requirements of the Ministerial landlords. Code. These vending machines are stocked and maintained Social Networking by the companies providing the machines and while it is possible that they may be stocked with snack foods that Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Prime Minister if he will are high in calories and low in nutritional value, no list all Twitter accounts for which officials of No. 10 central record of the contents has been kept to date. Downing Street (a) have had and (b) currently have There are no vending machines present in any of the responsibility for (i) monitoring and (ii) updating. other premises occupied by staff in the Law Officers’ [163558] Departments. 735W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 736W

WORK AND PENSIONS https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employment- and-support-allowance-work-capability-assessment-april- 2013 Employment and Support Allowance Table 6 in the spreadsheet accompanying the publication breaks down how claimants are allocated to the Work Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Related Activity Group (WRAG). This shows that 54% and Pensions (1) how many people with (a) cystic of claimants entering the WRAG after the initial WCA fibrosis, (b) rheumatoid arthritis and (c) multiple on their claim, did so based on the points awarded at sclerosis placed in the work-related activity group for the WCA. The remainder entered the WRAG for reasons employment and support allowance have been other than points awarded at the WCA, these reasons reassessed to date; and how many have been found fit are explained in the publication. for work following that reassessment; [163210] In response to the first question above, table 1 as (2) how many people with (a) cystic fibrosis, (b) follows provides information on the number of claimants rheumatoid arthritis and (c) multiple sclerosis placed who were awarded the WRAG based on points scored in the support group for employment and support at the initial WCA and who were subsequently awarded allowance have been reassessed to date; and how many fewer points at the second WCA on the same claim. have been placed in the work-related activity group Claimants who were awarded the WRAG at the second following that reassessment; [163212] WCA based on a reason other than points scored have (3) how many people with (a) cystic fibrosis, (b) been excluded. rheumatoid arthritis and (c) multiple sclerosis who Table 1: Number of claimants in the WRAG at the initial WCA who were have undergone more than one work capability assessment awarded the WRAG at the 2nd WCA but received points—All new ESA claims while in the work related activity group for employment starting between October 2008 and August 2012 and support allowance have received lower point scores Claimants awarded fewer points at Health Condition 2nd WCA when they were reassessed to date. [163165] Cystic Fibrosis 1— Mr Hoban: The Department regularly publishes official Multiple Sclerosis 60 statistics on employment and support allowance (ESA) Rheumatoid arthritis 90 and the work capability assessment (WCA). The latest 1 Denotes nil or negligible publication was released in April 2013 and can be found Table 2 as follows provides the requested data for the here: remaining questions above.

Table 2: Comparison of outcomes of the initial and 2nd WCA on the same claim—All new ESA claims starting between October 2008 and August 2012 Claimants in support group after Claimants in WRAG after initial initial WCA who then entered the WCA who were then found fit for work WRAG at 2nd WCA on the same Claimants having 2 or more WCAs on Health condition at 2nd WCA on the same claim claim the same claim

Cystic Fibrosis 10 10 220 Multiple Sclerosis 100 100 3,560 Rheumatoid arthritis 270 90 2,820 Notes: 1. All figures relate to claims starting between October 2008 and August 2012, who have completed at least two WCAs on the same claim. 2. All figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: The data presented above comes from benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions, functional assessment data from Atos Healthcare.

Housing Benefits: Social Rented Housing when they become vacant and the sale of social rented homes on the open market. This may incur some housing Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work benefit costs and the net effect on housing benefit and Pensions what assessment he has made of the likely expenditure will only be known once we have the outcome effect on housing benefit expenditure of the 165,000 of the competitive bidding process for the new programme. additional affordable rent homes announced by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in his oral statement on Jobseeker’s Allowance 27 June 2013. [163014] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: No assessment is available at this point. Work and Pensions pursuant to his answer of 25 March The Chief Secretary’s announcement of 165,000 new 2013, Official Report, column 986W, on social security affordable homes represents an important contribution benefits, what the total amount of benefit withheld to the increase in housing supply the country needs. The from fixed jobseeker’s allowance sanctions was in 2012-13. majority of these new homes will be for affordable rent, [163202] with the remainder for shared ownership. As affordable rent is up to 80% of market rent, these new homes will Mr Hoban: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer generate housing benefit savings for tenants who otherwise of 25 March 2013, Official Report, column 986W, on typically live in more expensive private rented social security benefits. accommodation. The table shows the total amount of jobseeker’s However, as with the current programme, some of allowance (JSA) withheld to the nearest £ million (in the funding for these new homes will come through actual prices) as a result of fixed sanctions in each of conversions of social rented homes to affordable rent the last four years up to 22 October 2012: 737W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 738W

Notes: Benefit withheld from fixed JSA sanctions (£ million) The breakdown of Sure Start maternity grant and funeral payments is estimated based on the social fund computer system data. 2009-10 11 2010-11 and 2011-12 figures are aligned to the latest published 2010-11 43 expenditure out-turn available at: 2011-12 45 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit- 2012-13 (to October 2012) 60 expenditure-and-caseload-tables-2013 2012-13 figures are aligned to the published Social Fund White The total amount of benefit withheld as a result of Paper 2012-13 available at: benefit sanctions is interpreted here as the maximum https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ benefit amount that claimants would have received if attachment_data/file/209379/ they had continued to be on benefit for the length of the DWP_Annual_Report_on_the_Social_fund.pdf sanction. Since some people would have flowed off The breakdown of HB and CTB expenditure is based on a benefit in the period of the sanction and that also they combination of statistical data and local authority subsidy returns, might have flowed off benefit had they not received a as outturn expenditure data is not available at this level. Expenditure sanction, the figures calculated represent overestimates in 2012-13 is estimated and is subject to change. These estimates for the actual benefit that might have been withheld. are consistent with the latest published expenditure out-turn available at: This calculation is performed for both people aged https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit- under 25 and over 25-years-old to reflect different JSA expenditure-and-caseload-tables-2013 rates. The expenditure on other passported benefits is the responsibility The calculation does not net the figures for hardship of the individual Departments or local authorities that have the payments. ownership of the benefit in question. Additional data on jobseeker’s allowance fixed sanctions has not been published. On 22 October 2012, a revised jobseeker’s allowance National Insurance Contributions: Self-Employed sanctions regime was introduced. The publication of statistics covering the new regime has been delayed to Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for allow sufficient quality assurance. Work and Pensions if he will make it his policy that self-employed people should be able to pay voluntary Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and class 1 national insurance contributions to ensure that Pensions how much his Department spent on each they are eligible for contribution based jobseeker’s passported benefit for jobseeker’s allowance claimants, allowance if they become unemployed. [163230] in each of the last three years; and how much he estimates will be spent on such benefits in each of the Mr Hoban: HM Revenue and Customs is responsible next three years. [163313] for the policy around voluntary national insurance contributions. However, income-based jobseeker’s allowance Mr Hoban: The Department for Work and Pensions is available to self-employed people who meet the eligibility is responsible for the expenditure of the following passported criteria. The Department administers a wide range of benefits: Housing benefit, council tax benefit, funeral benefits and allowances that are available to people on payments, Sure Start maternity grants and cold weather low incomes. Self-employed people who meet the qualifying payments. Details of expenditure can be found in the criteria may be entitled to housing benefit, help with table: council tax and NHS charges. Those working and on a Estimated expenditure paid to passported JSA claimants in the last three years low income may be entitled to working tax credit whilst £ million those with children may be entitled to child tax credit. 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Class 2 national insurance contributions provide self- employed people with protection against ill-health, Housing benefit 2,755 3,105 3,332 bereavement and old age by providing entitlement to Council tax 498 534 568 benefit employment and support allowance, bereavement benefits Sure Start 9.7 6.0 4.5 and basic state pension and the rate of contributions maternity they pay reflects this. There are no plans to extend this grants entitlement to contributory jobseeker’s allowance. Funeral 3.3 3.6 3.8 payments

A breakdown by individual qualifying benefit is not Staff available for cold weather payments. Forecasts by passported benefit are not available. Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Work However, a forecast of Housing benefit expenditure and Pensions how much his Department spent on (a) paid to all JSA claimants, including non-passported recruitment agency fees, (b) outplacement agency fees contributory JSA claimants, is available in the ’Housing for displaced or redundant staff and (c) staff training Benefit’ sheet at: in each of the last 12 months. [162625] https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/195319/ Mr Hoban: The information is as follows: expenditure_tables_Budget_2013.xls.xls (a) From June 2012 to May 2013 DWP spent a total Future expenditure on council tax benefit is the of £17,445,421 on recruitment agency fees, which is responsibility of local authorities. primarily salaries paid to interim staff. 739W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 740W

£ Spend on recruitment agency fees Spend on recruitment agency fees Total (interim recruitment) (permanent recruitment)

June 2012 561,858 12,000 573,858 July 2012 1,268,210 12,028 1,280,238 August 20121 1,789,605 — 1,789,605 September 2012 1,649,958 383 1,650,341 October 2012 1,873,096 31,981 1,905,077 November 2012 1,455,818 — 1,455,818 December 2012 1,460,006 26,643 1,486,649 January 2013 1,360,284 188,837 1,549,121 February 2013 1,265,883 71,921 1,337,804 March 2013 1,059,541 44,312 1,103,853 April 2013 1,999,901 57,456 2,057,357 May 2013 1,246,842 6,928 1,253,770 Total 16,991,002 452,489 17,443,491 1 Child Maintenance Group expenditure is included from August 2012, when they joined DWP.

These workers are engaged where we do not have State Retirement Pensions: Wales available skilled resource in- house, mainly in specialist roles such as project management and IT. Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work All central recruitment is authorised only in exceptional and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of the circumstances and is subject to ministerial approval. number of self-employed people in Wales that will benefit from the introduction of the single tier state (b) From June 2012 to May 2013 DWP spent a total pension in 2016; [162800] of £14,963 on outplacement fees for displaced or redundant (2) what estimate he has made of the number of staff. carers in Wales that will benefit from the introduction of the single tier state pension in 2016. [162801] Spend on outplacement agency fees for displaced or redundant staff (£) Steve Webb: It is estimated that around 20,000 people June 2012 — in Wales reaching state pension age in 2016-17 will be July 2012 — eligible for a single-tier pension. August 2012 — September 2012 — Geographical breakdowns of the impact of the single-tier October 2012 1,200 reforms relative to the current state pension are not November 2012 1,450 available. December 2012 1,550 However, there were around 180,000 self-employed January 2013 1,550 people in Wales in 2012. Those who are paying only February 2013 — Class 2 national insurance contributions are not currently March 2013 8,052 credited towards the state second pension, but will be April 2013 1,161 treated as having a full qualifying year under the single-tier May 2013 — pension valuation. Total 14,963 Vocational Training (c) From June 2012 to May 2013 DWP spent a total of £9,913,741 on staff training. For clarity, this does Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Work not include any travel and subsistence or salary costs of and Pensions whether unemployed people aged between the DWP employees attending the training. 18 and 24 enrolled on the Government’s traineeship programme will be eligible to claim jobseeker’s allowance Spend on staff training (£) for the duration of their traineeship. [163263]

June 2012 268,890 Mr Hoban: There is scope for providers to design a July 2012 259,924 programme that meets the core aims and elements of August 2012 445,356 traineeships but also fits with benefit rules. This would September 2012 585,372 enable young people in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance 1 October 2012 830,603 (or the new universal credit) to continue to receive November 2012 993,696 financial support while taking part in a traineeship. December 2012 501,355 Colleges and providers are encouraged to work with January 2013 1,047,590 Jobcentre Plus when designing their programmes. February 2013 1,151,705 March 2013 2,959,746 Claimants will continue to be paid jobseeker’s allowance/ April 2013 361,264 universal credit at their benefit rate, and be subject to all May 2023 508,240 existing conditionality such as actively seeking and Total 9,913,741 available for employment. They will also continue to 1 From October 2012 DWP contributed towards the cross-government learning attend regular face-to-face Jobcentre Plus adviser interviews provider Civil Service Learning. for the duration of their traineeship. 741W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 742W

Welfare State: Reform (2) how many people who have been in the Work programme for more than 12 months have had (a) no Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and job start and (b) no job outcome to date. [163277] Pensions with reference to the statement by the Chancellor Mr Hoban: Information on job starts from the Work of the Exchequer of 26 June 2013, Official Report, programme is not available. column 314, on the spending review, what process is in place to assess under-performing programmes. [163327] Information about people on the Work programme and job outcomes can be found in the latest statistical summary available through the following link: Mr Hoban: The Department continually assesses, through robust and thorough evaluation, the performance https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ of its programmes to ensure that the best possible value attachment_data/file/210226/work-programme-stats- summary-june-2013_v2_020713.pdf for money is achieved.

Work Programme EDUCATION Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Adoption: North Yorkshire Work and Pensions under what circumstances a person who had been on the Work programme for two years Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for without achieving a sustained job outcome and had Education if he will make a statement on the pilot been returned to Jobcentre Plus for support would be scheme for early adoption in North Yorkshire; if he will referred to the Work programme again; and if he will set out the criteria which have to be met before adoption make a statement. [163272] within 28 days is permitted; and if he will confirm that each case will be judged on its merits and that the 28 Mr Hoban: There are no current or planned future days target will be ignored where circumstances demand. circumstances in which a Work programme completer [163008] who has not achieved a sustained outcome would be re-referred to the Work programme. Mr Timpson: I am not aware of a pilot scheme in North Yorkshire relating to early adoption but would happily receive information about it. The Department Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for does not set adoption targets, but it expects local authorities Work and Pensions what targets he has set for to meet the timeliness thresholds set out in the adoption Jobcentre Plus in supporting people who leave the scorecards and the time scales set out in statutory Work programme without having achieved a sustained guidance. job outcome; and if he will make a statement. [163274] I support local authorities’ efforts to tackle delays in the adoption system so that children for whom adoption Mr Hoban: Those returning from the Work programme is appropriate can be placed with their adoptive families without having achieved a job outcome will be among earlier than they currently do. The paramount consideration the hardest to help individuals. All these claimants will is the child’s best interests and while local authorities have support that is tailored to the needs of the individual, should not aim for speed to the detriment of children, which will build on what they have experienced when on there is clear evidence that unnecessary delay is detrimental the Work programme, supported by our core regime. to children and must be tackled. We expect advisers to work intensively with jobseeker’s allowance claimants who need additional support, Free School Meals: Yorkshire and the Humber contacting and seeing them frequently. We do not have any targets set for this group. We do, Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for however, use all available measures to understand the Education what proportion of children in (a) Haltemprice effectiveness of support we offer. and Howden constituency and (b) the East Riding of Yorkshire were eligible for free school meals in (i) Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for primary and (ii) secondary schools in each of the last 10 Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the years. [163203] number of people likely to return to jobcentres having completed two years on the Work programme without Mr Laws: Information on the number and percentage achieving a sustained job outcome in each of the next of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free 12 months. [163275] school meals in state-funded nursery and primary and state-funded secondary schools in Haltemprice and Howden constituency, East Riding of Yorkshire local authority Mr Hoban: Projections of people expected to take up and England for 2006 to 2013 is shown in the tables. post-Work programme support would be based on data the Department plans to release as official statistics. We Comparable data for earlier years is not readily available are therefore unable to provide estimates in response to and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. this PQ without compromising the integrity of the Information on the number of pupils known to be statistical release. eligible for and claiming free school meals as at January 2013 is published in the Statistical First Release ’Schools, Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pupils and their Characteristics, January 2013’1. and Pensions (1) how many people who were referred 1 Note: on to the Work programme in June 2011 have had (a) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/schools-pupils- no job start and (b) no job outcome to date; [163276] and-their-characteristics-january-2013 743W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 744W

State-funded nursery and primary and state-funded secondary schools1,2,3: number of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals4,5, January each year: 2006 to 2013, England, East Riding of Yorkshire local authority and Haltemprice and Howden constituency State-funded nursery and primary schools1,2 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013

England Number on roll4,5 3,899,445 3,860,420 3,837,680 3,825,475 3,838,680 3,873,175 3,947,650 4,045,835 Number of pupils 664,975 654,290 637,170 652,305 711,405 743,255 760,910 776,445 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals4,5 Percentage of 17.1 16.9 16.6 17.1 18.5 19.2 19.3 19.2 pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals

East Riding of Yorkshire local authority Number on roll4,5 24,534 24,129 23,695 23,370 23,217 23,186 23,635 23,786 Number of pupils 2,141 2,073 1,847 2,015 2,414 2,776 2,782 2,779 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals4,5 Percentage of 8.7 8.6 7.8 8.6 10.4 12.0 11.8 11.7 pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals

Haltemprice and Howden constituency Number on roll4,5 6,872 6,766 6,646 6,614 6,659 6,645 6,736 6,725 Number of pupils 339 327 301 328 396 459 474 422 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals4,5 Percentage of 4.9 4.8 4.5 5.0 5.9 6.9 7.0 6.3 pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals

State-funded secondary schools1,3 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 20136

England Number on roll4,5 2,985,905 2,955,210 2,913,725 2,883,245 2,864,345 2,837,825 2,809,815 2,779,190 Number of pupils 439,125 425,110 413,365 417,970 441,145 450,275 449,485 452,600 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals4,5 Percentage of pupils 14.7 14.4 14.2 14.5 15.4 15.9 16.0 16.3 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals

East Riding of Yorkshire local authority Number on roll4,5 20,467 20,306 19,882 19,650 19,411 19,213 18,779 18,406 Number of pupils 1,652 1,634 1,533 1,434 1,664 1,908 1,745 1,741 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals4,5 745W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 746W

State-funded secondary schools1,3 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 20136

Percentage of pupils 8.1 8.0 7.7 7.3 8.6 9.9 9.3 9.5 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals

Haltemprice and Howden constituency6 Number on roll4,5 7,644 7,559 7,235 7,015 6,851 6,455 5,961 5,091 Number of pupils 759 772 842 833 880 864 767 416 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals4,5 Percentage of pupils 9.9 10.2 11.6 11.9 12.8 13.4 12.9 8.2 known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes all primary academies, including free schools. 3 Includes city technology colleges and all secondary academies, including free schools, university technical colleges and studio schools. 4 Includes pupils who are sole or dual main registrations. 5 Pupils who have full time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part time attendance and are aged between five and 15. 6 The Sir Henry Cooper school in this constituency closed in August 2012 and was replaced by Thomas Ferens Academy which is located in a neighbouring constituency. Note: National figures have been rounded to the nearest 5. Source: School Census

Health Education: Drugs Prevention Information Service (ADEPIS) on 13 April 2013, run by the charity Mentor UK, which provides Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Education high quality information and advice to practitioners, what estimate he has made of the time schools dedicate including teachers. The Department is also funding the to teaching students about the risks associated with (a) Centre for Analysis of Youth Transitions (CAYT) up to illegal drugs, (b) prescription drugs and (c) legal highs; March 2014. CAYT have set up an open-access data and if he will make a statement. [162926] bank of quality assured impact studies on services and programmes that support the development of young Elizabeth Truss: The Department does not estimate people. The database will enable schools, commissioners the amount of teaching time schools dedicate to teaching and others to choose the best programmes with a strong about illegal or prescription drugs, or legal highs. evidence of impact. All pupils should be educated about the dangers and Teachers: Qualifications effects of drugs, and drug education forms part of national curriculum for science. This ensures that pupils Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State are taught about the effects of drugs on behaviour, for Education what proportion of teachers in each local health and life processes. Provision in this area can be authority area were classified as unqualified in the latest built on and extended through non-statutory personal, period for which figures are available; and if he will social, and health education (PSHE), should schools make a statement. [162752] choose to do so. Mr Laws: The following table provides a time series Understanding the risks associated with drugs is an of the numbers of full-time equivalent teachers without important part of young people’s education. To support qualified teacher status (QTS) working in publicly funded this we launched the Alcohol and Drug Education schools in England.

Thousand

January November

2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Maintained schools 18.6 17.9 16.7 16.8 16.4 15.6 11.9 9.5

Academy schools 0.3 0.3 0.5 0.8 1.0 2.2 3.9 5.3

Total in all publicly funded schools 18.8 18.2 17.2 17.5 17.4 17.8 15.8 14.8 747W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 748W

Thousand January November 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Percentage in all publicly funded 4.5 4.3 4.1 4.1 4.1 3.9 3.6 3.3 schools Note: Figures are in thousands Source: School Workforce Statistical First Release

The changing balance between academies and maintained Proportion of the full-time equivalent number of teachers in service without schools since 2010 reflects the increasing number of qualified teacher status in publicly funded schools. November November schools becoming academies. January 2009 2010 2011

The number of teachers without QTS includes: trainees 1 working towards QTS; overseas trained teachers who Cheshire East — 1.8 1.6 Cheshire West and 1— 1.0 1.5 had not exceeded the four years they were allowed to Chester teach without having QTS; and instructors with a particular Halton 1.4 1.1 0.9 skill who were employed when a suitable qualified teacher Warrington 1.9 1.5 1.4 was not available. Bolton 2.8 1.8 2.0 Since 1 September 2012, instructors can be employed Bury 1.1 2—4.9 permanently and there is no longer a requirement for school Manchester 3.8 3.0 1.9 leaders to consider a qualified teacher first when they Oldham 2.8 3.1 2.3 feel that an instructor would be better suited to the Rochdale 1.8 2.9 1.4 position. Salford 3.5 2— 2— Since 27 July 2012, mainstream and alternate provision Stockport 0.8 2.3 1.2 academies can employ teaching staff without the automatic Tameside 1.3 2.6 2.1 requirement for them to have QTS. The funding agreements Trafford 2.1 4.4 5.7 for all new academies states that they can employ teaching Wigan 0.7 1.6 1.3 staff whom they deem suitably qualified whether or not Lancashire 1.4 1.7 1.6 they have QTS. Existing academies can request that Blackburn with 5.0 2.5 2.8 their funding agreements be changed to include the Darwen same freedom if they wish. Free schools already had the Blackpool 0.9 0.9 1.2 flexibility to employ suitably qualified professionals Knowsley 2.3 1.2 1.1 who do not already possess QTS. Liverpool 1.4 1.4 1.4 St. Helens 1.2 0.3 0.7 The following table shows the percentage of teachers Sefton 1.8 1.7 1.1 in service that did not have QTS, by local authority. The Wirral 1.3 1.1 0.8 latest available information is from the November 2011 School Workforce Census (figures for January 2009 and November 2010 are presented for comparison purposes). Yorkshire and the Humber Statistics for each local authority based on the November Kingston upon Hull, 7.9 2—5.8 2012 School Workforce Census will be published on City of 17 July. East Riding of 2.2 3.0 3.5 Proportion of the full-time equivalent number of teachers in service without Yorkshire qualified teacher status in publicly funded schools. North East 3.6 2—7.5 November November Lincolnshire January 2009 2010 2011 North Lincolnshire 4.9 4.7 6.1 North Yorkshire 2.3 0.3 4.2 England 3.9 3.9 3.6 York 1.1 6.0 7.3 Barnsley 2.3 2.9 2.6 North East Doncaster 3.2 2.1 2.5 Gateshead 0.7 1.1 1.4 Rotherham 2.7 2.2 2.4 Newcastle upon Tyne 1.8 1.6 2.2 Sheffield 4.5 2.5 2.4 North Tyneside 1.1 1.4 1.3 Bradford 1.1 2.2 2.7 South Tyneside 0.9 0.5 1.4 Calderdale 0.4 2.0 1.8 Sunderland 2.9 1.8 1.2 Kirklees 1.6 2.1 2.0 Hartlepool 3.5 5.0 6.2 Leeds 2.2 2.4 3.1 Middlesbrough 3.2 2.8 3.4 Redcar and Cleveland 2.7 3.8 4.1 Wakefield 3.1 2.2 2.5 Stockton-on-Tees 2.4 3.3 3.6 County Durham 2.0 2.5 2.5 East Midlands Darlington 3.2 1.4 2.6 Derbyshire 1.3 1.6 2.0 Northumberland 1.5 1.1 1.4 Derby 3.1 3.0 3.5 Leicestershire 3.5 3.8 3.1 North West Leicester 4.8 4.7 3.4 Cumbria 1.5 2.0 1.5 Rutland 4.1 4.1 3.6 749W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 750W

Proportion of the full-time equivalent number of teachers in service without Proportion of the full-time equivalent number of teachers in service without qualified teacher status in publicly funded schools. qualified teacher status in publicly funded schools. November November November November January 2009 2010 2011 January 2009 2010 2011

Lincolnshire 6.7 6.1 5.1 Croydon 6.7 8.2 6.5 Northamptonshire 4.3 4.3 4.5 Ealing 7.2 5.4 5.2 Nottinghamshire 2.3 2.8 2.9 Enfield 5.6 3.5 4.2 Nottingham 5.3 4.8 6.4 Harrow 6.5 5.2 4.3 Havering 6.6 6.8 5.7 West Midlands Hillingdon 6.7 5.4 5.1 Herefordshire, 2.4 3.8 4.5 Hounslow 7.1 4.7 4.1 County of Kingston upon 3.8 4.8 4.2 Worcestershire 1.7 1.1 2.0 Thames Shropshire 2.2 1.3 0.7 Merton 5.5 4.9 5.3 Telford and Wrekin 3.3 2— 2— Redbridge 8.1 6.2 6.0 Staffordshire 3.2 3.2 2.0 Richmond upon 3.5 2.5 4.0 Stoke-on-Trent 3.4 5.1 5.1 Thames Warwickshire 2.5 3.3 2.1 Sutton 3.9 2.7 3.5 Birmingham 6.0 3.4 2.5 Waltham Forest 7.2 5.5 4.8 Coventry 3.5 8.4 5.2 Dudley 2.6 1.8 0.7 South East Sandwell 1.8 4.7 4.0 Bracknell Forest 4.5 3.9 3.2 Solihull 3.8 4.3 4.4 Windsor and 5.3 5.7 8.7 Walsall 3.6 2.5 3.1 Maidenhead Wolverhampton 3.9 4.4 4.6 West Berkshire 4.0 4.7 3.3 Reading 5.2 4.2 4.1 East of England Slough 9.1 9.8 9.2 Wokingham 1.8 3.2 3.6 Cambridgeshire 5.8 3.7 3.5 Buckinghamshire 5.1 4.8 4.2 Peterborough 6.6 5.6 5.5 Milton Keynes 5.4 5.0 4.0 Norfolk 5.5 3.1 3.3 East Sussex 3.7 3.9 4.0 Suffolk 1.2 4.3 3.9 Bedford 1— 6.4 5.5 Brighton and Hove 2.8 2.3 2.2 Central Bedfordshire 1— 4.4 4.5 Hampshire 3.4 1.1 1.0 Luton 7.7 6.6 6.2 Portsmouth 4.0 3.1 3.8 Essex 3.8 5.0 4.4 Southampton 3.7 2.0 2.6 Southend-on-Sea 13.1 10.4 13.8 Isle of Wight 5.9 7.0 5.3 Thurrock 9.9 8.0 7.5 Kent 7.3 6.3 6.5 Hertfordshire 7.2 5.0 4.0 Medway 4.7 4.2 5.0 Oxfordshire 3.9 2.9 3.2 Inner London Surrey 3.7 3.1 3.1 City of London 5.6 7.1 6.4 West Sussex 1.7 1.9 1.8 Camden 6.1 7.5 6.5 Hackney 8.7 8.8 6.6 South West

Hammersmith and 7.2 7.3 5.7 Isles of Scilly 2.7 6.2 9.7 Fulham Bath and North East 1.2 1.1 1.0 Islington 6.1 5.3 4.0 Somerset Kensington and 9.8 10.6 6.7 Bristol, City of 2.5 1.7 2.2 Chelsea Lambeth 5.7 5.7 5.5 North Somerset 0.6 1.0 1.1 Lewisham 6.2 5.5 4.7 South Gloucestershire 1.5 1.6 1.7 Southwark 9.9 6.3 8.7 Cornwall 4.1 2.5 2.9 Tower Hamlets 7.3 5.9 5.0 Devon 1.7 1.3 1.1 Wandsworth 7.3 5.1 4.8 Plymouth 2.0 2.8 2.4 Westminster 10.2 11.0 9.8 Torbay 1.9 2.5 2.5 Haringey 7.0 6.3 5.5 Dorset 3.2 3.2 1.9 Newham 3.5 4.6 4.5 Poole 2.2 1.9 2.6 Bournemouth 4.7 3.9 3.4 Outer London Gloucestershire 1.6 2.4 1.8 Greenwich 8.1 7.7 6.9 Somerset 1.7 2.1 1.9 Barking and 8.7 5.1 5.2 Wiltshire 1.7 3.2 2.6 Dagenham Swindon 4.6 2.8 3.9 Barnet 10.1 8.9 7.6 1 Not applicable Bexley 4.7 3.5 3.4 2 Not available Source: Brent 7.3 7.3 5.0 Form 618g and School Census, (January 2009) and School Workforce Census Bromley 5.3 4.2 3.3 November 2010 and 2011 751W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 752W

JUSTICE Department, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies, except for prisons and buildings used primarily Apprentices for judicial purposes, in each of the last three financial years. [154238] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many apprentices are currently employed by his Mrs Grant: The table shows the running costs (excluding Department; and how many are aged (a) under 19, (b) depreciation) in each of the last three financial years for 19 to 25, (c) 26 to 30, (d) 31 to 59 and (e) 60 and over. the Ministry of Justice’s central London estate (SE1, [161686] SW1, W1, WC1 and WC2). The table excludes prisons, prison officers’ quarters and buildings used primarily Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice is committed to for judicial purposes. improving the quality and access to apprenticeships. Running costs From 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2013, the Department £ million offered a total of 2,587 apprenticeship qualifications to Property/holding 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 the existing work force. The breakdown between years in shown in the table. Units 4 and 5 Mitre House 1.69 1.95 1.59 102 Petty France 36.40 35.35 34.02 Staff taking apprenticeship Clive House 4.00 6.49 6.66 qualifications Steel House 3.49 3.65 3.85 Ashley House 0.07 1.38 1.43 2008-09 321 Grenadier House 0.18 3.58 2.90 2009-10 412 Millbank (5th floor) 0.96 0.96 0.85 2010-11 503 Chancery Lane 3.32 3.29 3.35 2011-12 682 151 Buckingham Palace Road 1.05 2.36 2.51 2012-13 669 Carlton Gardens (Privy Council) 0.37 0.40 0.18 Total 2,587 2 Marsham Street1 5.60 3.00 0 Information on the age range is only available in a Great Peter Street1 2.35 0.50 0 limited form for the staff taking apprenticeship Drummond Gate1 2.32 2.32 0.97 qualifications in 2012-13. This is set out in the table. Abbey Orchard Street1 1.89 1.89 0 22 Kingsway1 1.20 1.20 0.48 1 2 Staff taking apprenticeship Abel House 2.37 -0.47 0 Age-range qualifications Cleland House1 1.99 2-0.43 0 1 No longer used by MOJ. Under 19 0 2 Predominantly tax rebates. 19-23 27 Note: 24 and over 633 Territorial Offices (Wales Office and Scotland Office) are excluded. Data is taken from a variety of accounting systems. Although care is taken when Not known 9 processing and analysing the data, the detail is subject to the inaccuracies Total 669 inherent in any large-scale recording system. The Ministry of Justice is committed to reducing the To provide the full information requested would require cost of its administrative estate. By 2014-15 we will have analysing the staff records for the members of staff reduced our total administrative property holdings from concerned and would incur disproportionate costs to 185 to 94 including 16 to two in central London. From obtain. 2015-16 onwards these reductions will save the Department In addition, my Department currently employs one £47 million per year in resource costs. externally recruited apprentice. For data protection reasons, I am not able to give any age information of this Contempt of Court member of staff. As part of the new civil service fast-track apprenticeship scheme, the Department has identified 11 apprenticeship vacancies to be filled in September 2013. Sir Edward Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when the provisions in the Crime and Courts Billing Act 2013 abolishing scandalising the judiciary as a form of contempt of court will come into force. [162451] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment his Department has made of the Mrs Grant: Section 33 of the Crime and Courts Act savings it could achieve by paying its suppliers early in 2013 abolished scandalising the judiciary as a form of return for rebates. [161056] contempt of court and under section 61(6) was to come into force at the end of the period of two months beginning Mrs Grant: The Department has made no such with the day on which the Act was passed. The Act received assessments as it already pays all suppliers immediately Royal Assent on 25 April 2013 and hence scandalising once they have been approved. This is in line with the the judiciary was abolished on 25 June 2013. prompt payment guidance targets for all central Government Departments to aim to pay 80% of all Crime: Victims undisputed invoices within five days Buildings Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of 24 June 2013, Official John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Report, column 25W, on victims’ support schemes, how what the total running costs were for each building many persistently targeted victims have been identified used, owned or rented in central London by his by his Department in each of the last five years. [162360] 753W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 754W

Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice does not record I refer the hon. Member to the answer provided on or hold this information. In responding to last year’s 24 April 2013, Official Report, columns 928-29W,regarding consultation ’Getting It Right for Victims and Witnesses’, information requested for 2011-12. we identified persistently targeted victims as being one http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/ of three groups of victims who can suffer the greatest cmhansrd/cm130424/text/130424w0001.htm impact of crime. We know that crime, even when seemingly less serious, can have a devastating impact on victims European Convention on Human Rights when committed again and again over a period of time, particularly where a person is deliberately targeted. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice That is why persistently targeted victims are one of when the Government plans to (a) sign and (b) ratify three groups of victims eligible for enhanced services Protocol No. 15 amending the Convention for the from criminal justice agencies and service providers. Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. [162048] Criminal Proceedings Damian Green: The United Kingdom’s Permanent Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Representative to the Council of Europe signed Protocol with reference to the answer of 24 April 2013, Official 15 on behalf of the UK when it was opened for signature Report, columns 928-9W, on criminal proceedings, on 24 June. In accordance with Part 2 of the Constitutional what the average mean number of days from offence to Reform and Governance Act 2010, I shall lay Protocol completion was (a) in each region and (b) in total for 15 before Parliament after the summer, with a view to (i) magistrates and (ii) Crown courts in England and completing its ratification this autumn. Wales in (A) 2011-12 and (B) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [161701] High Speed 2 Railway Line Mrs Grant: In November last year, the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), what estimates he has made of the additional costs to announced as one of his priorities a real drive for a his Department as a result of the construction of High criminal justice and court system that works effectively Speed 2. [159866] and puts victims first. Work is under way to increase both the effectiveness and efficiency of the criminal Mrs Grant: The Department has made no estimates justice system. It will look at the whole of the system to of the additional costs as a result of the construction of drive performance and tackle some of the perennial High Speed 2 as no additional costs are expected at this weaknesses so it is quicker, less erratic and more efficient. stage. Table 1 presents the average (mean) number of days taken from offence to completion, broken down by HM Courts and Tribunals Service region and court type for 2012-13. The time taken from offence to completion is affected by factors such as the David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for complexity of the case and the time taken to report the Justice what the expected budget for HM Courts and crime following the incident. Tribunals Service is for the next three years. [161537] Table 1: Average number of days from offence to completion for all criminal cases completed in the magistrates courts and the Crown court, by region, Mrs Grant: The HM Courts and Tribunal Service England and Wales, 2012-131,2,3 gross budget for 2013-14 is £1,547.9 million with forecast Average number of days from offence to completion income of £565 million, providing a net budget of Magistrates All completed £982.9 million. Region courts4 Crown Court5 criminal cases Budgets after 2013-14 will be set in the context of the London 160 321 171 overall financial settlement for the Ministry of Justice, Midlands 151 310 161 future workloads and saving plans. North East 137 287 147 North West 141 303 152 Homicide South East 148 318 158 South West 142 338 154 Wales 159 281 166 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice England 148 310 158 what steps he has taken to ensure that people bereaved and Wales by a homicide are not at risk of losing their job during 1 Excludes breaches and cases with an offence to completion time greater than the course of a trial. [161852] 10 years. 2 Statistics are sourced from the CREST linked court data and included around 95% of completed cases. Mrs Grant: The National Homicide Service funded 3 Only one offence is counted for each defendant in the case. If two or more by the Ministry of Justice, and launched in 2010, has cases complete on the same day, the case with the longest duration is included. specially trained staff who help families cope with the 4 Included cases completed in the magistrates courts during the specified time period, where no further action is required by the magistrates courts, excluding trauma of the murder or manslaughter of a loved one. committals. This includes helping them inform employers about 5 Included all criminal cases which have received a verdict and concluded in the their situation and accessing legal advice. It then remains specified time period, in the Crown Court. Data source: for employers to decide, taking into account someone’s Libra Management Information System Timeliness Analysis Report (TAR) contract of employment and any relevant legal requirements, and CREST linked court data, HM Courts and Tribunals Service the position they take in respect of employees who find Source: Criminal Courts Statistics, Justice Statistics Analytical Services, Ministry of themselves needing to take time off work when bereaved Justice by homicide. 755W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 756W

Immigrants: Detainees The information is held on individual files and attempting to interrogate each file manually and collate the information Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for requested would incur disproportionate cost. Justice how many cases of alleged unlawful immigration LVT decisions are published online and can be found detention have been heard in courts in England and at: Wales in each of the last five years; and of those cases, www.residential-property.judiciary.gov.uk/search/ how many were (a) found in favour of the plaintiff, (b) decision_search.jsp found in favour of the defendant, (c) withdrawn and Where applications under Section 20C of the Landlord (d) settled out of court. [156772] and Tenant Act 1985 are made to the county court, rather than the LVT, they are submitted using the Mrs Grant: Information relating to alleged unlawful General Application Notice, which are not recorded immigration detention is not held on the Administrative against individual case types. It is not therefore possible Court Office database in a searchable statistical format. to determine how many Section 20C applications have The case files over the five-year period (40,000 case been successfully made in any given year without a files) would have to be viewed individually to provide manual case count, which would incur disproportionate the specific information requested and therefore the cost. information cannot be provided without incurring disproportionate cost. Legal Aid Scheme: Wales Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice in how many cases of alleged unlawful immigration Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for detention that were heard in courts in England and Justice how many legal firms in the Dyfed-Powys area Wales in each of the last five years the plaintiff was in are permitted to take on legal aid cases. [156002] receipt of civil legal aid. [156773] Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency and its predecessor Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency (LAA) does the Legal Services Commission (pre 1 April 2013) records not hold the information requested. Cases of unlawful information relating to firms by legal aid procurement immigration detention cannot all be distinguished in area, which is broadly based on local authority boundaries. the LAA’s systems from those relating to wider unlawful In the Criminal Justice Service area of Dyfed Powys detention. there are currently 38 firms with an active civil or crime legal aid contract.

Judges: Veterans Albert Owen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much was paid in criminal legal aid costs to Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for solicitors’ firms in (a) Ynys Môn and (b) North Wales Justice how many judges have served in the armed in each of the last three years for which records are forces. [161760] available. [158194]

Mrs Grant: I am unable to provide this information. Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency and its predecessor While there are members of the judiciary who have the Legal Services Commission (pre 1 April 2013) records served in the military, this information is not recorded, costs relating to firms by legal aid procurement area, and Judicial Office are unable to provide any details. which is broadly based on local authority boundaries. We have provided this information as a reasonable Landlord and Tenant proxy for constituency boundaries in relation to the Anglesey local authority and the North Wales region. Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for Criminal legal aid costs Justice how many applications to prevent a landlord £ million from recovering costs of litigation through future service North charges were made to the courts under the provisions of Wales: 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 section 20C of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 in Anglesey 0.54 0.58 0.51 each of the last five years for which figures are available; Others 6.20 6.61 5.93 and how many such applications were successful. Total 6.74 7.18 6.44 [160813] Please note that: Mrs Grant: Applications made under Section 20C of The costs include VAT and disbursements such as expenses, the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 can be made to the third party costs, and costs paid by Her Majesty’s’ Courts and Leasehold Valuation Tribunal (LVT) jurisdiction where Tribunals Services (HMCTS) on crown court cases. there are proceedings before the LVT or the Residential The information does not include costs paid by the Court of Property Tribunal. Such applications therefore form Appeal, Supreme Court, House of Lords, and Senior Court part of wider proceedings and the LVT does not identify Costs Office. Solicitor advocates are treated as Barristers and and record separately the number of applications it costs paid to them are not included as part of the firm. receives under Section 20C of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985. It is also not possible to provide the outcomes Albert Owen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for these types of case as the outcome of individual how many firms received criminal legal aid payments in applications including those under Section 20C are not (a) Ynys Môn and (b) North Wales in each of the last analysed and recorded separately. three years for which records are available. [158195] 757W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 758W

Jeremy Wright: The Legal Aid Agency and its predecessor funding are for inquests, it is not possible to disaggregate the Legal Services Commission (pre 1 April 2013) records the expenditure on inquests from the total amount costs relating to firms by legal aid procurement area, spent on exceptional funding. which is broadly based on local authority boundaries. I regret that it is not possible to identify separately We have provided this information as a reasonable the amount spent on legal aid for families of the deceased proxy for constituency boundaries in relation to the at inquests. Anglesey local authority and the North Wales region. Criminal legal aid firms Termination of Employment North Wales: 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Anglesey 3 3 2 on how many occasions (a) a compromise agreement, (b) a confidentiality clause and (c) judicial mediation Others 26 27 27 was used when an employee of (i) his Department and Total 29 30 29 (ii) the public bodies for which he is responsible left Please also note that solicitor advocates are treated as their employment in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) barristers and not included as part of the firm. 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [160911] Mrs Grant: The information requested is not centrally Press: Subscriptions held by the Ministry of Justice. It would require a Ministry wide exercise to collect Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the information from the Department and its associated how much his Department spent on newspapers, periodicals public bodies. This would incur disproportionate costs. and trade publications in the last 12 months. [162655]

Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice’s Library and Information Service purchases publications for the Judiciary, CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Courts, Tribunals, and for the Ministry of Justice and Royal Courts of Justice libraries. Press Office also buys Church Closures publications. (There is no central record of any subscriptions held by other business units.) The same account codes Rehman Chishti: To ask the honourable Member for are used for purchase of books as well as the types of Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, publications requested and it would incur disproportionate what steps the Church Commissioners are taking to costs to tease these out separately. keep churches that are faced with closure open for worship and for the community. [163111] Prisoners: Death Sir Tony Baldry: I refer my hon. friend to the answer I gave in writing on 24 June 2013. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for I would also like to add to that answer—since 2007 Justice what estimate he has made of the cost of legal the Church of England has opened an average of 10 representation of the Government at inquests into all new churches every year. There are also an increasing cases where the state is represented in deaths in custody number of ‘fresh expressions’ churches being set up in in each of the last three years; and how much his other buildings and public spaces, such as pubs, skate Department spent on legal aid for families of the deceased parks, community centres, etc. which are not covered by in such cases during the same time period. [158864] the figures above.

Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) does Religious Buildings: Fees and Charges not hold details of the annual cost to the whole of Government of legal representation at inquests. Each Dr Offord: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, Department makes their own arrangements. representing the Church Commissioners, what recent The MOJ specifically incurs legal costs at inquests assessment the Church Commissioners have made of following the deaths of serving prisoners. The Treasury the cost to visitors of accessing religious buildings. Solicitor’s Department charges the MOJ for legal advice [163105] and representation at inquests. These charges came to £2.7 million in 2009-10; £2.1 million in 2010-11 and Sir Tony Baldry: Of the 42 Diocese in England (excluding £2.1 million in 2011-12. The figures for 2012-13 are not Sodor and Man and Europe) only nine cathedrals charge yet published. It is not possible to attribute these charges an entry fee. Chester Cathedral has just abolished all to completed inquests. entry charges. Unlike the national museums none of the Under the Access to Justice Act 1999, the Lord Church of England’s cathedral or church buildings Chancellor has the power, on request from the Legal receive grant in aid from the Government. Services Commission, to grant exceptional legal aid All cathedrals which charge for entry give free access funding in cases where civil legal aid was not generally to those attending services (of which there are a number available. For death in custody inquests, he delegated every day of the week), to those who arrive on pilgrimage this power to the Legal Services Commission. The total or wish to pray, some give free entry on Sundays and at amount spent on exceptional funding was £1.1 million other times, generally early in the morning or late in the in 2007-08; £1.5 million in 2008-09; and £1.6 million in afternoon, and others give free entry to local residents 2009-10. While most of the applications for exceptional or church attenders in their Dioceses. 759W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 760W

Only two of the great parish churches charge entry Mr Willetts: I have been asked to reply on behalf of fees or a modest charge to enter part of the church. the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. They are St Bartholomew’s the Great in London Diocese The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) collects and Holy Trinity Church, Stratford upon Avon in Coventry and publishes data on students at UK Higher Education diocese the resting place of William Shakespeare. Institutions (HEIs). The numbers of entrants to UK Both the churches and cathedrals resort to charging HEIs who were domiciled in Barnsley Central constituency, primarily to recover the cost of repairing the fabric of Barnsley local authority and South Yorkshire prior to the building due to the large volume of tourist visitors their course have been provided in the table for the they receive. academic years 2010/11 and 2011/12. The English Cathedrals and Royal Peculiar’s that Information for the 2012/13 academic year will become currently charge for entry as of June 2013: available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency Canterbury in January 2014. Coventry Entrants1 to UK HEIs domiciled in Barnsley Central constituency, Barnsley Ely local authority and South Yorkshire2 prior to their course. Academic years 2010/11 to 2011/12 Exeter 2010/11 2011/12 Lincoln Christ Church, Oxford (to enter college) Barnsley Central 965 925 constituency St George’s Chapel, Windsor (to enter castle)1 Barnsley local 2,465 2,275 St Paul’s authority Westminster Abbey1 South Yorkshire 15,655 14,990 Winchester 1 Covers all students in their first year of study. 2 York Minster A student’s parliamentary constituency, local authority and area are derived from their home postcode. The boundaries were revised in the 2010 general 1 Royal Peculiar election. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. CABINET OFFICE Source: Graduates: Unemployment Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record. Press: Subscriptions Dan Jarvis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what estimate he has made of the number of unemployed university graduates in (a) Barnsley, (b) Mike Freer: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Barnsley Central constituency, (c) South Yorkshire Office how much his Department spent on newspapers, and (d) England. [163311] periodicals and trade publications in the last 12 months. [162645] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office spent £31,249 with asked the authority to reply. our main supplier of newspapers and periodicals in the Letter from Glen Watson, dated July 2013: 2012-13 financial year. This is an increase on the previous As Director General for the Office for National Statistics year as a result of the inclusion, from April 2012, of (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question services which had previously been part of COI. asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office what estimate he has Because management units are free to make their made of the number of unemployed university graduates in (a) own arrangements for the provision of newspapers, Barnsley, (b) Barnsley Central constituency, (c) South Yorkshire periodicals and trade publications no records are kept and (d) England. (163311) centrally of total costs. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Whilst the APS does collect data on graduate unemployment, no reliable statistics can be produced for Barnsley Central constituency FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE or Barnsley due to small sample sizes. The latest APS estimates available for graduate unemployment British Overseas Territories are from interviews held during the period January to December 2012. Based on this survey, the number to the nearest thousand, of unemployed people whose highest qualification was degree Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for level or higher in South Yorkshire was 50,000 and in England was Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the extent of 343,000. (a) Crown land and (b) private land in each of the 14 National and local area estimates for many labour market British Overseas Territories is by (i) area and (ii) percentage statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant of total land area. [162958] count are available on the NOMIS website at http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Mark Simmonds: Policy on land registration in each Higher Education: South Yorkshire of the Overseas Territories is a matter of devolved responsibility for their government. We do not hold a Dan Jarvis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office central record of the information requested except for how many people in (a) Barnsley Central constituency, the British Indian Ocean Territory and the British Antarctic (b) Barnsley metropolitan borough council area and Territory. We have limited information in respect of (c) South Yorkshire went to university in academic Turks and Caicos Islands (TCI) where the British year (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) 2012-13. [163312] Government was in direct control from 2009 to 2012. 761W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 762W

In the case of the British Indian Ocean Territory, all The Protocol on Environmental Protection to the land is Crown land with none held privately, with a total Antarctic Treaty provides for the comprehensive protection area of 60 square kilometres being 100% of the total of the Antarctic environment and designates Antarctica land area. as a natural reserve, devoted to peace and science. In the case of the British Antarctic Territory the Under the protocol, over 30 areas of the British Antarctic entire terrestrial area is Crown land, more than 1.7 Territory have, to date, been designated as Antarctic million square kilometres, but our territorial claim is Specially Protected Areas. A further four areas have held in abeyance by the Antarctic Treaty of 1959. been designated as larger-scale Antarctic Specially Managed Areas. The vast majority of these designations include At the time of the elections in TCI in November reasons specifically relating to biodiversity conservation. 2012, approximately 68% of land was registered to the A full list is available online at: Crown. Some 3,000 acres of land has been returned to the Crown since 2009. http://www.ats.aq/e/ep_protected.htm The British Indian Ocean Territory’s 55 islands have Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for a total land area of only 60 sq km, within which Diego Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many marine Garcia accounts for half the area. Of the other islands, protected areas have been designated in each of the 14 none of which are larger than Hyde Park, seven are British Overseas Territories for biodiversity conservation fully protected whilst the islands of Diego Garcia have purposes; and what the extent of the area covered by part protection. In addition, the Eastern Islands in each such area is. [162960] Peros Banhos are designated nature reserves. Within the Sovereign Base Areas (which are administered Mark Simmonds: The designation of marine protected by the Ministry of Defence), the proportion of land areas (MPAs) is a matter of devolved responsibility. We legally designated as protected areas for conservation do not hold a central record of the information requested purposes is: Special Protected Areas—0.52% (4,819 except for South Georgia and the South Sandwich hectares); Ramsar (Convention on Wetlands of Islands (SGSSI), British Antarctic Territory (BAT), International Importance)—0.23% (2,171 hectares); and British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT) and the Sovereign Special Areas of Conservation—3.10% (28,701 hectares). Base Areas (SBAs). In respect of South Georgia and the South Sandwich In 2012 the Government of South Georgia and the Islands, the Wildlife and Protected Areas Ordinance South Sandwich Islands (SGSSI) declared a sustainable-use 2011 affords an extremely high level of protection to MPA of one million square kilometres in size (equivalent terrestrial habitats and flora and fauna throughout to four times the terrestrial area of the United Kingdom), South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. The including over 20,000 square kilometres of no-fishing Government of South Georgia and the South Sandwich zones. Islands is developing plans for Specially Protected Areas, Prior to ratifying the Antarctic Treaty, 1959, which which can be designated under the Wildlife and Protected places Antarctic sovereignty issues in abeyance, the UK Areas Ordinance, and will undertake stakeholder had only declared a three-mile territorial sea around the consultation on those plans in due course. British Antarctic Territory (BAT). However, in 2009, the Commission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Canada Living Resources agreed a marine protected area of 94,000 square kilometres on the Southern Shelf of the Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for South Orkney Islands. In addition, a number of Antarctic Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what work the Specially Protected Areas (ASPAs), designated under British High Commission in Ottawa is doing to support the Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic UK industry in the Canadian oil sands. [163330] Treaty, comprise marine areas around the BAT. Details of designated ASPAs can be found at: Alistair Burt: The British high commission in Ottawa, http://www.ats.aq/e/ep_protected.htm along with our network of posts in Canada, help to The British Indian Ocean Territory declared a no-take develop UK commercial opportunities in the Canadian MPA in 2009 across its maritime zone of 640,000 square oil and gas sector. This is done by helping to better kilometres. educate the UK supply chain industry of the opportunities There are no MPAs around the Sovereign Base Areas that exist in the sector, assisting UK companies in (SBAs). finding Canadian partners and overcoming any barriers to trade. We also highlight the strength of UK expertise Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Canadian oil and gas industry. Since 2008 12 UK Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion companies have opened offices in Alberta, and are of land area is legally designated as a protected area for supplying goods and services to the oil sands industry biodiversity conservation purposes in each of the 14 including in recruitment, cabling, waste recovery, software, imaging and project management. We also maintain British Overseas Territories. [162961] close and regular dialogue with major UK investors in Mark Simmonds: Territory Governments are responsible the Canadian oil and gas sector, including BP, Shell and for the protection and conservation of their natural Amec. environments. We do not hold a central record of the information requested, except for the uninhabited Overseas Eritrea Territories of British Antarctic Territory (BAT), British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT), South Georgia and the Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for South Sandwich Islands (SGSSI), and the Sovereign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last discussed Base Areas (SBAs). the persecution of Christians in Eritrea with (a) the 763W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 764W government of Eritrea, (b) the High Representative of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Policy and (c) United Nations human rights bodies. he has made of the biodiversity conservation impact of [162874] the biosecurity policy breaches which occurred in 2013 in South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. Mark Simmonds: We raise human rights issues, including [162962] the persecution of Christians, with the Government of Eritrea at every opportunity and work closely with our Mark Simmonds: The Government of South Georgia partners to coordinate on these issues. and the South Sandwich Islands (GSGSSI) were only In June 2013 our ambassador in Asmara raised the recently made aware of the biosecurity policy breaches persecution of Christians with senior representatives of which occurred in March 2013 and are still in the the Eritrean Government. process of establishing the full facts surrounding the situation. Nevertheless, they have advised the UK We work closely with the EU on Eritrea. In December Government that the breaches were contained in a last year, our ambassador alongside EU colleagues small area and detected within a few days of occurring, called on the Eritrean Government to release all prisoners at which point appropriate mitigation action was taken, held for their religious beliefs as part of the Article 8 for example, incineration of prohibited items. An initial dialogue. assessment by GSGSSI concluded that it is unlikely that In June 2013 we expressed our concern about freedom either of these breaches will have resulted in any adverse of expression and opinion in Eritrea at the UN Human impacts. Rights Council. Turks and Caicos Islands Serco Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the area of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Crown land in the Turks and Caicos Islands was in Department currently spends on contracts with Serco; each of the last 10 years. [162954] and how much was spent in each year since 2008. [162936] Mark Simmonds: A definitive list of land parcels owned by the Crown in the Turks and Caicos Islands (TCI) for each of the last 10 years is not available. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Records maintained by previous TCI Governments (who (FCO) does not have any ongoing contracts with Serco had devolved responsibility for Crown Land) do not Ltd. Spend analysis show that there has been some contain this information. minor spend, totalling £22,076 during the period April 2011 to June 2013 inclusive; this is displayed in Table 1. Since December 2009, as part of a wider land Spend prior to April 2011 could be analysed only at administration reform programme under the Interim disproportionate costs. Administration, work began to generate a definitive listing of land parcels owned by the Crown and registered Table 1—FCO spend with Serco Ltd at the TCI Land Registry. However, as the listing is live Spend (£) and regularly updated, historical versions are not kept. 2011-12 8,350 Moreover, areas of Crown land without registers of 2012-13 13,726 title, such as foreshore, are not included in the listing. 2013 (YTD) 0 Since the election in November 2012, this work continues Total 22,076 under the TCI Government. In November 2012 there were approximately 6,117 Information for our overseas posts is not held centrally registered parcels of Crown land totalling 87,342 acres, and can be provided only at disproportionate cost. approximately 68% of the registered land extent recorded on the listing. It should be noted that some parcels of South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands Crown land could be subject to leasehold interests, and that a significant proportion of Crown land also falls within the Protected Areas Scheme of the National Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Parks Ordinance and its use is therefore restricted by Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many that statute. terrestrial protected areas have been legally designated in South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands for nature conservation purposes; and what the extent of each such area is. [162949] WOMEN AND EQUALITIES

Mark Simmonds: The Government of South Georgia Serco and the South Sandwich Islands are developing plans for Specially Protected Areas, which can be designated Mr Sheerman: To ask the Minister for Women and under the Wildlife and Protected Areas Ordinance. The Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office Wildlife and Protected Areas Ordinance 2011 affords currently spends on contracts with Serco; and how an extremely high level of protection to terrestrial habitats much was spent in each year since 2008. [162937] and flora and fauna throughout South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. The Government will undertake Maria Miller: The Government Equalities Office has a consultation on these plans in due course. never held a contract with Serco. 765W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 766W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Data for Brigg and Goole constituency are not collected centrally.The constituency falls within the local authorities Derelict Land of North Lincolnshire and East Riding of Yorkshire. As set out in the written ministerial statement on 18 Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for September 2012, Official Report, columns 31-33WS, the Communities and Local Government what research his Department no longer publishes statistics at a regional Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated level. Figures for the rest of the United Kingdom are a on the factors which affect the deliverability and viability matter for each devolved Administration. of previously developed land for redevelopment. [162449] The number of long-term empty homes in England has fallen by nearly 20,000 between 2011 and 2012 and Nick Boles: The Department has not commissioned by over 40,800 since 2010. or evaluated any work on the factors affecting the Families: Disadvantaged deliverability and viability of previously developed land. Disciplinary Proceedings Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when he expects Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for to have completed working with the 120,000 troubled Communities and Local Government how many staff families he has identified. [162443] were suspended from his Department and its associated public bodies on full pay in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 Brandon Lewis: The current troubled families programme and (c) 2012-13; and what costs were incurred as a aims to turn around the lives of 120,000 troubled families result of such suspensions. [160408] by the end of the current Parliament in May 2015. The programme is on track: as of March 2013, 152 upper-tier Brandon Lewis: The number of staff in the Department councils in England have already identified more than for Communities and Local Government who were half (66,000) of their families, and more than 35,000 of suspended on full pay in financial years (a) 2010-11, the 120,000 troubled families are already being worked (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13, and the costs incurred as with. a result of the suspensions, is set out in the following Fire Services table. I have also included figures for the current financial year. Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for

Number of staff suspended Communities and Local Government how many Financial year on full pay Cost incurred1 (£) positions are available for the redeployment of fire and rescue service workers who no longer meet the physical 2010-11 1 4,933 standards for operational roles in (a) Tyne and Wear 2011-12 2 21,116 Fire and Rescue Service and (b) the UK. [162895] 2012-13 1 35,338 2013-14 1 2,137 Brandon Lewis: The Department does not keep data Total — 63,524 on the level or nature of vacancies in fire and rescue 1 Gross. authorities. Fitness standards are an operational matter We do not hold a central record of staff suspended for individual fire and rescue authorities. from the Department’s associated public bodies. To obtain this information would be possible only at a Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for disproportionate cost. Communities and Local Government (1) when he Staff suspected of serious or gross misconduct can be plans to bring forward legislative proposals to prevent suspended on full pay pending the investigation and a mutual organisation running fire and rescue services conclusion of the case. This is rare but is done where facing competition from the private sector at a later there is a risk an individual might destroy or tamper stage; [163081] with evidence, influence others, continue the suspected (2) what assessment he has made of the legislative inappropriate behaviour or where they can no longer changes that will be required to prevent any mutual undertake their duties until the case is determined, for organisation running fire and rescue services being example where security clearance has been revoked. subject to open competition in the future. [163082]

Empty Property Brandon Lewis [holding answer 3 July 2013]: I refer the hon. Member to my speech in the Adjournment Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for debate of 13 May 2013, Official Report, columns 470-76, Communities and Local Government what assessment in which I laid out the Government’s position on supporting he has made of the number of unoccupied residential locally-led mutuals in the fire and rescue service, and properties in (a) Brigg and Goole constituency, (b) that we are not opening the door to wholesale privatisation. Yorkshire and the Humber and (c) the UK. [163331] Housing: Construction Mr Foster: Annual statistics on total numbers of vacant dwellings and those vacant longer than six months Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for in each local authority district in England are published Communities and Local Government what advice he in the Department’s live table 615, which is available at has given to the Planning Inspectorate on judging the following link. whether local authority assessments of future housing https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- requirements comply with the National Planning tables-on-dwelling-stock-including-vacants Policy Framework. [162450] 767W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 768W

Nick Boles: The Strategic Housing Market Assessment We provided HM Treasury with an equalities assessment Practice Guidance August 2007, remains in place pending of our main areas of expenditure, as well as some the outcome of the Government’s review and can still additional areas of spending that have particular equalities be used to identify future housing requirements where impacts, both before and during the spending round relevant to the National Planning Policy Framework. process. We plan to publish guidance on assessing future housing DCLG’s overall spending round submission was need in the summer. informed by its own equality assessments and by the In addition, Ministers meet with the Planning spending review equalities assessment commissioned by Inspectorate from time to time to discuss matters in HM Treasury. relation to planning to ensure a consistent approach is The Government has been clear that producing formal being taken. equality impact assessment Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for documents is not required in order to ensure compliance Communities and Local Government what advice he with the legal responsibility to consider equality impacts. has given to local authorities on providing evidence that The assessment of equalities feeds into both spending housing development sites can be considered viable or round decisions and future decisions by DCLG. The deliverable. [162452] outcome of the spending round was published on 26 June 2013. Nick Boles: The National Planning Policy Framework sets out that local planning authorities should identify a Right to Buy Scheme supply of specific deliverable sites sufficient to provide five years worth of housing against their housing Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for requirement, and also identify a supply of specific, Communities and Local Government pursuant to the developable sites or broad locations for growth, for answer to the hon. Member for Pudsey of 3 June 2013, years six to 10 and, where possible, for years 11 to 15. Official Report, column 1221, on right-to-buy scheme, The Framework defines what is meant by ″deliverable″ which local authorities have refused his Department’s and “developable” in footnotes 11 and 12 on page 12 of offer to help promote the Right to Buy. [160529] the document. The Framework also sets out policies on viability, Mr Prisk [holding answer 18 June 2013]: After the and says that the sites and scale of development identified important measures announced at Budget, I wrote to in a local plan should not be subject to such a scale of all stock owning local authorities, offering support to obligations and policy burdens that their ability to be inform tenants of their Right to Buy. This includes developed viably is threatened. In addition, as set out in delivering Right to Buy tenant roadshows in partnership the Budget, the Government will publish significantly with them in the local area. reduced planning guidance by summer 2013, which will To date, Right to Buy events have been held in include guidance on viability. Hammersmith and Fulham, Wandsworth, Croydon, Basildon, Milton Keynes, Bournemouth, Doncaster and Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for Swindon. Others, following initial contact, such as Brighton Communities and Local Government if he will publish and Hove, Cannock Chase, Crawley, Enfield, Harlow, guidance on when local planning authorities can refuse Havering, Kingston upon Hull, Leeds, Leicester, applications for major housing development that Manchester, Norwich, Sheffield, Southampton, Southwark predetermine decisions to be made in local plans; and if and Wigan, have declined to organise such events. I he will make a statement. [162453] would urge them, together with like minded authorities to rethink and ensure that their tenants are well informed. Nick Boles: The existing guidance on prematurity, set Should they change their minds, we stand ready to help out in the “Planning System: General Principles”, is organise. included in the review of government planning practice I visited the excellent Basildon roadshow, and have guidance. seen at first-hand the value tenants place on receiving Public Expenditure advice and help to explore home ownership further. I would encourage all stock-owning local authorities to Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for consider the needs of their tenants and work with my Communities and Local Government what assessment Department to help inform tenants about the Right to he has made of the equality impact of his Department’s Buy. spending reductions since 2010; whether this assessment has been used to inform his planning ahead of the 2013 Urban Areas: Regeneration comprehensive spending review and with what result; what plans he has to publish the equality impact assessments Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaken by his Department as a result of the upcoming Communities and Local Government what progress he comprehensive spending review; and if he will make a has made following the Portas Review into high streets statement. [161174] towards introducing an explicit presumption in favour of town centre development in the wording of the Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities National Planning Policy Framework. [162367] and Local Government considers equality issues in exercising its functions, including in setting priorities Mr Prisk: As explained in the Government’s response within its budget, in order to comply with equality to the Portas Review the National Planning Policy legislation and to ensure it understands how its activities Framework asks local councils to recognise town centres will affect specific groups in society. as the hearts of their communities and pursue policies 769W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 770W to support their viability and vitality. It sets out clearly I would observe that the Office of the Deputy Prime that local councils should require new town centre uses Minister signed a facilities management contract in to be located in existing town centres out of preference. 2004 which required that there ’must be top-selling Only if there are no suitable and viable town centre brands’ of chocolate in the vending machine for the locations for new town centre uses should consideration first Secretary of State. be given to siting such development outside of town Ministers in this Administration would regard that as centres. In considering proposals for town centre uses over-specification. that can only be located outside of existing town centres, i.e. where there are no suitable and viable sites in town centres, our policy requires that the proposal is not granted permission where it would have a likely significant adverse impact on existing town centres. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Business: Loans Vacancies Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mike Freer: Toask the Secretary of State for Communities Innovation and Skills how many members of staff and Local Government what his Department’s vacancy currently working in his Department on the interim rate was in 2012-13; and what vacancy rate has been business bank have been recruited externally from the assumed for 2013-14. [162664] private sector. [163360]

Brandon Lewis: The Department for Communities Michael Fallon: The team working on the business and Local Government does not keep a central record bank project in the Department consists of civil servants of job vacancies as responsibility for recruitment lies and staff recruited externally from the private sector. with individual line managers. Five secondees have been brought in from the private Since October 2011 the Department’s headcount has sector to work on the project; a number of the Department’s fallen by 416 full-time equivalent staff to the end of staff working on the project have also relevant private May 2013. The Department operates a limit on headcount, sector experience. currently 1,760 full-time equivalent staff, and any recruitment will be constrained by that limit going Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, forward. Innovation and Skills how many applications his Department has received for funds under his Department’s The Department’s major programme of restructuring Investment Programme as part of the business bank has reduced headcount by 37% on a like-for-like basis proposals announced on 10 April 2013; and what the with the October 2010 baseline position. total aggregate monetary value is of the applications for Based on current estimates (which reflect accounting funds received to date under the Investment Programme. consequences from machinery of government changes), [163361] the DCLG Group is reducing its annual running costs by 41% in real terms between 2010-11 and 2014-15. Michael Fallon: As at 1 July the Department for This equates to net savings of at least £532 million over Business, Innovation and Skills was in receipt of 58 this spending review period and includes savings of preliminary expressions of interest from a wide variety around £420 million from the closure of the Government of lenders. These are being assessed by the Investment offices for the regions. Programme team prior to applicants being invited to submit Formal Proposals. A number of applicants that have submitted Expressions of Interest have already Vending Machines been asked to submit a Formal Proposal and to date one formal proposal seeking funding of £50 million has Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for been received. The early interest received is encouraging Communities and Local Government how many vending and the Investment Programme remains open to new machines in his Department’s premises contain snack applications. foods that are high in calories and low in nutritional value. [163204] Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills by what date he plans Brandon Lewis: We do not centrally hold information to announce successful bidders under the Investment on our local offices which we share with other agencies, Programme. [163362] where the facilities management is run by other partners. Notwithstanding, as is common practice in work Michael Fallon: I expect to announce the first successful places across the country, I can confirm that we have bidders under the Investment Programme in the autumn. one vending machine in each of our core departmental offices in Victoria and Bristol which serve confectionary/ Business: Security snacks. We do not intend to adopt a nanny state approach by Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for removing them: Our catering supplier provides healthy Business, Innovation and Skills who the members of eating options in our canteen, including fresh and seasonal his Department’s Security Standards Working Group produce. This Government believes in choice in public are; and what support is offered to small businesses to services. participate. [163391] 771W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 772W

Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation Michael Fallon: On 26 March the Government and Skills (BIS) is running a call for evidence on announced that for 2014-20 England, Scotland, Wales organisational standards for cyber security, and eventually and Northern Ireland would each receive an equal 5% the selection of a preferred standard for organisational reduction in relation to their overall European regional cyber security. development fund (ERDF) and European social fund Industry stakeholders—among others—have expressed (ESF) allocation for 2007-13. an interest in the call for evidence. These industry In England, the allocations of ERDF and ESF for stakeholders are collaborating to run a security standards 2013 set the baseline for allocations for the 2014-20 working group workshop to consider their response to funding period. BIS’ call for evidence. All transition regions, including Merseyside, will receive An official will be attending the event to observe; but an equal c.20% uplift based on their UK spending the group is not led by Government. commitment against the EU budget for 2013. Halton is in the Cheshire NUTS 2 region. Cheshire is designated Derby Economic Response Taskforce as a ’more developed’ category and will receive a c.5% uplift based on its UK spending commitment against the EU budget for 2013. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for 4.3% of England’s overall budget for ERDF and Business, Innovation and Skills how much was spent ESF was reserved by Government. This will fund a part on the Derby Economic Response Taskforce between contribution towards programme administration costs July 2011 and August 2012; what assessment he has and also a contribution towards a service to support made of the Taskforce’s achievements; and if he will prisoners from prison and into paid employment upon make a statement. [161960] their release. Allocations on the basis of NUTS 2 geographies Michael Fallon: During the lifespan of the Derby were then converted to LEP areas on the basis of Economic Response Task Force the Department for population statistics. Liverpool city region will receive Business, Innovation and Skills incurred only minimal its share of the Cheshire allocation based on the population costs, to cover the chair’s expenses. for Halton and 100% of the Merseyside allocation. At the Task Force’s conclusion (16 July 2012), partners Allocations were then converted to LEP area on the agreed that it had played a valuable role in the bringing basis of population statistics. people together to meet the shared challenge of mitigating the impact of potential job losses. As a direct result of Further Education: Overseas Students the Task Force’s work, a £40 million Regional Growth Fund Round 2 award was made to help strengthen Mr Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, supply chain and innovation capacity within the local Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to take in economy, diversification into new markets and for creating response to the findings of his Department’s research new business opportunities. report, Evaluation of the value of Tier 4 international I have no plans to make a further statement. students to FE colleges and the UK economy, published in April 2013. [163261] English Language: Education Matthew Hancock: The purpose of the research was to establish the extent of international student recruitment Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, in publicly funded further education colleges and to Innovation and Skills pursuant to the Statement by the assess the value of these students to further education Chancellor of the Exchequer of 26 June 2013, Official colleges and the UK economy. Report, column 315, on the Spending Review, what The findings will be used as appropriate in relation to additional resources his Department plans to provide future international activity in the FE sector. for the delivery of ESOL provision for jobseekers in receipt of benefit. [163319] Green Investment Bank

Matthew Hancock: We are considering how to deliver Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for the additional English language provision for jobseekers Business, Innovation and Skills for what reasons the announced in the Spending Review, with details to be borrowing powers of the Green Investment Bank in announced in due course. The resource implications for 2015-16 have been limited to borrowing from Government the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will rather than from capital markets. [163184] be addressed as the approach is finalised. The implementation of the conditionality package will not Michael Fallon: The Government has made clear it impact on existing levels of provision. plans to give the Green Investment Bank (GIB) scope to borrow from the capital markets once targets have EU Grants and Loans: Liverpool been met on reducing public sector net debt as a percentage of GDP. We will continue to keep this matter under review. Giving the GIB scope to borrow up to £500 million Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for of its £800 million funding for 2015/16 from HM Treasury’s Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria he applied National Loans Fund is a sensible step to take in in determining the allocation of EU funding for advance of reaching that point, giving the Bank the Liverpool city region in the period 2014 to 2020; and if opportunity to demonstrate it can make a profit operating he will make a statement. [163370] with funds borrowed on commercial terms. 773W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 774W

Industrial Disputes: Military Bases Percentage

Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and training 2.7 Business, Innovation and Skills what reports he has Electricity, gas, steam and air- 0.3 received on (a) the state of industrial relations between conditioning supplies ISS contractors and trades unions at certain RAF Environmental services 0.5 stations and (b) recent industrial actions by trades Financial and insurance 0.3 union members following the collapse of pay talks with activities ISS; if he will intervene to encourage talks to resolve Health/beauty and hair/fitness 8.1 the situation; and if he will make a statement. [163365] Human, health and social work 1.4 activities Jo Swinson: We have not received any reports on the Information and communication 16.8 state of industrial relations between ISS contractors Manufacturing 8.6 and trade unions. The Government considers that the Other personal service activities 9.5 resolution of disputes is a matter for the parties involved. Professional, scientific and 3.6 Therefore, it would not be appropriate for me to comment technical services on the specific details of this case. Real estate activities 0.9 Transportation and storage 1.3 The Government believes that strikes should be a last resort and that it is better to resolve disputes through Wholesale and retail trades 21.0 dialogue wherever possible. The independent Advisory, 100 Conciliation and Arbitration Service (Acas) stands ready to assist the parties in reaching an agreement, where Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for they both accept its involvement. Business, Innovation and Skills what comparative New Businesses: Young People assessment he has made of regional allocation of funding from the start-up loan scheme. [162824]

Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Fallon: Funding for the start-up loans Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses programme is not allocated on a regional basis, but is created as a result of funding from the start-up loan distributed according to demand. The current spread of scheme are in each parliamentary constituency. [162821] funding is:

Michael Fallon: The Department does not hold Percentage constituency data for the Start-Up Loans programme and does not require the Start-Up Loans Company to East England 5.8 provide disaggregated data at this level. West Midlands 6.8 South West 5.7 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for North West 17.3 Business, Innovation and Skills how many recipients of Yorkshire and the 9.6 funding from the start-up loan scheme have been (a) Humber female and (b) male. [162822] South East 8.6 Greater London 34.8 Michael Fallon: At 1 July 2013 the current split is 64% East Midlands 5.6 male, 34% female by volume. North East 5.8 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what comparative Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment he has made of sectoral growth as a result Business, Innovation and Skills what the average age of of funding from the start-up loan scheme. [162823] recipients of funding from the start-up loan scheme is. [162825] Michael Fallon: The first loan made under the start-up loans programme was drawn down in September 2012. Michael Fallon: The Start-Up Loans Company reports As such, it is too early to make a valid assessment of that the average age of loan recipients is 25.5 years. growth impacts by sector. At 31 March 2013 the spread was as follows (subject to final audit): Oil: Canada

Percentage Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Accommodation and food 6.1 Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has services made of the potential value to UK businesses working Activities of households as 0.1 to support the development of the Canadian oil sands. employers [163328] Administrative and support 5.7 services Michael Fallon: Canada has the world’s third largest Agriculture, forestry and fishing 0.1 proven crude oil reserves, with 97% of Canada’s proven Arts, entertainment and 7.9 recreation oil reserves found in Alberta’s oil sands; only about 16% of these 169.3 billion barrels is currently under Construction 5.3 development. The monetary value of these reserves are 775W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 776W subject to prevailing market rates. So far there has been The resource accounting budget for FY2015-16 of no assessment on the accessible value from the oil sands £4.4 billion is not directly comparable with the FY2014-15 for UK business. baseline figure of £2.9 billion set in 2010, because of Since 2008 12 UK companies have opened offices in changes since 2010 including the following: Alberta following their accessing of UKTI market services, macroeconomic conditions, which have increased the RAB and are supplying goods and services to the oil sands charge to around 35%; industry including in recruitment, cabling, waste recovery, increases to repayments thresholds since 2010; software, imaging and project management. We also the introduction of further education loans since 2010. maintain close and regular dialogue with major UK The total outlay on student loans will increase between investors in the Canadian oil and gas sector, including FY2014-15 and FY2015-16 as a result of a higher with BP, Shell and Amec. proportion of students being eligible for higher fee loans. Decisions have not yet been taken on rates of Serco tuition and maintenance loans in academic year 2015/16.

Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department Vending Machines currently spends on contracts with Serco; and how much was spent in each year since 2008. [162927] Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many vending Jo Swinson: Since 2008 the Department has spent the machines in his Department’s premises contain snack following amounts with Serco Ltd: foods that are high in calories and low in nutritional value. [163206] £

2008 943,289 Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation 2009 13,543,222 and Skills (BIS) has five vending machines installed on 2010 6,310,024 its premises. The machines stock a variety of confectionary 2011 828,782 and soft drinks. 2012 540,387 A selection of healthier snack options such as fresh 2013 (to 30 June) 83,635 fruit can be purchased in BIS staff restaurants and coffee bars throughout the day. Sky Lanterns: Sales BIS also has a choice of healthy food items on its weekly restaurant menus and has a traffic light system detailing nutritional information about each dish: Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration he Red—this dish is either high in dairy products and or deep has given to reviewing the availability for sale of fried Chinese lanterns. [163333] Amber—this dish contains dairy products or has been shallow fried Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation Green—this dish is healthy and has been cooked using minimal and Skills (BIS) has responsibility for consumer product oil, char grilled or oven roasted safety issues. Evidence suggests that the risk to consumers Salt is not available on the dining tables. by the sale of Sky Lanterns is extremely low, and as such we do not see the need to restrict their availability. However, following the incident at Smethwick recycling Vocational Training plant over the weekend, BIS continues to liaise closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Affairs and the Department for Communities and Local Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate his Government on the wider issues attributed to the release Department has made of how many young people aged of sky lanterns. between 18 and 24 will enrol on a traineeship in the academic year 2013-14; [163317] Students: Loans (2) how much funding from its apprenticeship and adult skills budget he expects his Department to Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for allocate for the delivery of traineeships in the academic Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has year 2013-14. [163318] made of the likely effects of the announcement in spending round 2013, Cm 8639, that the resource accounting budget for higher education student loans Matthew Hancock: Traineeships for 19 to 24-year-olds will increase to £4.4 billion in 2015-16. [162984] will be funded from the overall Adult Skills Budget, not from the estimated funding amount within the Adult Mr Willetts: The BIS student loan resource accounting Skills Budget to support adult apprentices. budget (RAB) falls outside the ONS definition of PSCB It is our intention that traineeships will be a demand-led (public sector current budget). The student loan resource programme therefore the number of places funded will accounting budget is used to ensure control over the reflect the number of employers and education and long-term costs of the student loan book, but does not training providers who choose to offer a place and the directly impact the fiscal aggregates. number of eligible young people who wish to take one. 777W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 778W

DEFENCE Mr Francois: The number of individual invoices paid electronically or by cheque is not held centrally, and Armed Forces could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The proportion of total payments made electronically Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and by cheque during financial year 2012-13 was 99.41% for Defence (1) how many members of the armed and 0.59 % respectively. forces re-entered civilian life after less than four years of service in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; [162365] Information regarding the average cost to pay an invoice is currently being collated as part of a pan- (2) how many members of the armed forces Government benchmarking exercise. I will write to my re-entering civilian life after less than four years of hon. Friend as soon as it is available. service possessed five A*-C grades at GCSE in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012. [162366] Falkland Islands Mr Francois [holding answer 2 July 2013]: The number Mr Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for of personnel leaving the armed forces after less than Defence what the cost to the public purse was of producing four years in service is shown in the following table: the study of deaths among Falklands veterans published by Defence Statistics on 14 May 2012; and of the 25,948 Number of personnel UK armed forces personnel identified in that study as 2010 6,490 having received the South Atlantic medal, how many 2011 5,730 received that medal (a) with and (b) without distinguishing 2012 5,440 rosette. [163264] The number of personnel leaving the armed forces Mr Francois: The cost of producing the study of after less than four years in service and who have deaths among Falklands veterans was some £15,800. recorded that they possess five A*-C grades at GCSE is These costs were associated with identifying and flagging shown in the following table: the cohort on the NHS Information Centre database and providing regular updates on the current circumstances Number of personnel of those individuals. The Ministry of Defence staff costs were covered by core funding. With regard to the 2010 740 awarding of medals, of the 25,948 issued 25,190 personnel 2011 920 received the medal with rosette and 758 without it. 2012 1,100 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft There is no mandatory requirement for service personnel to record their qualifications, and therefore these figures are the best available, but not fully validated. We are Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for aware of cases in which personnel have recorded A Defence how many British (a) civilian and (b) service levels but not GCSEs (a pre-requisite to A levels) but personnel are involved in the F-35 pilot and maintainer these are not captured in the tables. training at Eglin US Air Force Base. [163259] The armed forces provide exceptional through-life Mr Robathan: There are currently 16 British service education and training opportunities, and for some of personnel and no British civilian personnel involved in those who may not have been academically successful, F-35 pilot and maintainer training at Eglin US Air offer an entirely new approach to learning, providing Force Base. transferable skills useful within their service career and in the wider world. Military Aircraft All numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Numbers ending in five have been rounded to the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for nearest 20 in order to prevent systematic bias. Defence if he will estimate the value of the (a) Typhoon, (b) Hawk, (c) Tornado, (d) Hercules, (e) Globemaster, Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (f) Tucano, (g) Sentry, (h) Shadow and (i) King Air what his policy is on armed forces personnel working aircraft fleets. [162997] as contractors to steward RAF graduation events; and if he will make a statement. [163366] Dr Murrison: The current value of each aircraft fleet is shown in the following table. The values quoted Mr Francois: Personnel wishing to seek external off-duty reflect the net book value (NBV) of the fleet, which is employment, during service, are required to seek approval calculated by adding the cost of any major upgrades to from their commanding officer. There is no specific the original capital cost of each asset and deducting policy covering graduation events. depreciation to reflect the decrease in value of an asset Billing over time. The values quoted bear no relation to the replacement costs of the assets and capabilities, nor can they be used to calculate an accurate cost per aircraft. Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the average cost to his Department was of processing Aircraft Total NBV (£ million) the payment of an invoice in the latest period for which figures are available; and what proportion of invoices Typhoon 6,347 settled in that period his Department paid (a) electronically Hawk Tl 29 and (b) by cheque. [162630] Hawk T2 343 779W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 780W

Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) maintains Aircraft Total NBV (£ million) a national Nuclear Accident Response Organisation Tornado 804 (NARO) to respond to incidents or emergencies, including Hercules 647 any arising through terrorist acts, involving a range of Globemaster 691 Defence assets. Tucano 10 The MOD NARO is made up of specialists, subject Sentry 387 matter experts and capabilities that are drawn from Shadow1 72 across the MOD and its agencies including, where King Air 3502 17 appropriate, components based at Defence nuclear sites, 1 The figure for Shadow comprises the NBV plus assets in the course which would be used in response to any nuclear incident of construction yet to be formally transferred onto the Fixed Asset or emergency. Register and the sixth aircraft, which is due for delivery at the end of July 2013. 2 The King Air 200 aircraft is not owned by the Ministry of Defence Nuclear Weapons (MOD). It is operated under a lease arrangement and is not therefore recorded as an asset on the MOD balance sheet. No NBV Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for is available. Defence pursuant to the answer of 20 June 2013, Official Military Bases: West Sussex Report, column 790W, on nuclear weapons, (a) what nuclear emergency response capability is available at HM Naval Base Clyde and (b) what arrangements Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for there are to deploy nuclear emergency experts from HM Defence which units are currently stationed at the army Naval Base Clyde to advise civil emergency responders base on Thorney Island, West Sussex. [163270] in the event of an accident involving a nuclear weapon in Scotland or the north of England. [162995] Mr Francois: The Major Units currently based at Baker Barracks, Thorney Island are 12 Regiment Royal Dr Murrison: Her Majesty’s Naval Base (HMNB) Artillery and 47 Regiment Royal Artillery. Clyde operates a Nuclear Emergency Response Additional units hosted at Thorney Island include Organisation, which consists of a command structure HQ Thorney Island Station, the Dental Centre Thorney and the response forces available to respond to a nuclear Island, and the Medical Centre Thorney Island. emergency at the base. HMNB Clyde provides a team to support nuclear Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for weapon emergency arrangements across the UK. This Defence what the current and anticipated future uses of team is on constant notice to move and includes specialist the runways at the army base at Thorney Island, West nuclear weapon technicians to assist the civil emergency Sussex are. [163271] services. It has the capability to establish control at an emergency site, recover any UK Defence nuclear material, Mr Francois: The Ministry of Defence has no current undertake decontamination, provide advice on the or planned use for the runways at Thorney Island protection of the public and ensure effective site recovery. although there is some low level use of the airfield by civilian flying clubs. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) at which defence nuclear sites local liaison Military Decorations: World War II committees have been established to allow engagement with local stakeholders; which of these committees Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence include representatives from independent non-government what the average time taken to process an application and non-industry groups; which of these committees for the Arctic Star is; and if he will make a statement. allow members of the public to attend and observe [162897] meetings; and which of these committees publish minutes of meetings on a publicly accessible website; [163000] Mr Francois: In the awarding of new medals I am (2) if he will place in the Library copies of the terms advised that the usual time scale, from the announcement of reference and standing orders of each local liaison to the design and production of the medal, would be committee representing a defence nuclear site. [163001] approximately one year. Given the age of the veterans, the Ministry of Defence has managed to reduce the Dr Murrison: Defence nuclear sites with a Local time scale to just three months. Liaison Committee (LLC) are as follows: Due to the high number of applications, currently Her Majesty’s Naval Base (HMNB) Clyde; 4,262 from surviving veterans, 1,991 from widows and HMNB Devonport—Devonport Royal Dockyard; 8,933 from next of kin, 15,186 in total, priority is being given to veterans due to their age. The current processing The Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE); time for living veterans is two months. Next of kin Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment (NRTE); applications will start being assessed in September. Rolls-Royce Marine Power Operations, Derby; Rosyth Royal Dockyard; and Nuclear Accident Response Organisation BAE Systems Marine, Barrow. There is no prescribed structure for an LLC. Each Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for LLC comprises representatives from the local community Defence at which locations Ministry of Defence Nuclear but, given the diverse roles of the defence related nuclear Accident Response Organisation teams are based. licensed sites, the type of representation varies between [162994] them, and is a matter for the individual site licensee. 781W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 782W

The HMNB Devonport and Vulcan NRTE LLCs are are made through international procurement agencies open for members of the public to observe. or overseas Governments. Payments made by Government The following LLCs publish minutes of their meetings Procurement Card are also not included. online at the following addresses: Since January 2011, central Government Departments HMNB Devonport have been required to publish on Contracts Finder http://www.babcockinternational.com/about-us/ information on the contracts they award: responsibilities/community/devonport-royal-dockyard/ www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/ devonport-local-liaison-committee/ In addition, Departments publish details of spend in The Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) excess of £25,000. http://www.awe.co.uk/aboutus/ Local_Liaison_Committee_b1478.html Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment (NRTE) HOME DEPARTMENT http://www.dounreaystakeholdergroup.org/documents/ Terms of reference of each LLC will be placed in the British Nationality Library of the House. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Radioactive Waste: Fife Home Department how many applications to have a child’s birth registered under section 3(1), section 3(2) Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for or section 3(5) of the British Nationality Act 1981, Defence (1) if he will instruct action to begin the where the child concerned was the illegitimate child of a clean-up work at Dalgety Bay beach immediately; British citizen father, have been (a) approved and (b) [163070] refused since April 2008. [163074] (2) if he will provide funding for the remedial action plan clean-up of Dalgety Bay beach; [163071] Mr Harper [holding answer 3 July 2013]: The Home Office does not record the requested data. Obtaining (3) if he will continue the monitoring of Dalgety Bay the information would incur disproportionate costs. radiation until the clean-up work is completed; [163072] (4) if he will direct the Scottish Environment Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre Protection Agency not to designate Dalgety Bay as radiation-contaminated. [163073] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the procedure is for the Child Dr Murrison: As the regulator it is for the Scottish Exploitation and Online Protection Centre paying for Environment Protection Agency (SEPA) to decide if costs of recovery of evidence from internet service designation is appropriate at Dalgety Bay. The Ministry providers when investigating cases of online child abuse. of Defence (MOD) is considering the findings of SEPA’s [163316] appropriate person report, and will comment in due course. We will continue to monitor the beach without James Brokenshire: Much of the evidence in online prejudice in accordance with our agreed position. child abuse cases will derive from communications data. Communications service providers may be required to Serco disclose communications data under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. Any costs incurred by Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for them in complying with these obligations may be recovered, Defence how much his Department currently spends with the majority recovered from law enforcement agencies, on contracts with Serco; and how much was spent in based on their use of communications data. each year since 2008. [162932] Community Policing Dr Murrison: Expenditure on Ministry of Defence (MOD) contracts with Serco is shown in the following Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for table: the Home Department what assessment she has made of the effect of policing reforms on community policing. Financial year Expenditure (£ million) [161425] 2008-09 666.6 2009-10 652.7 Damian Green: Much of our reform to policing has 2010-11 642.5 been targeted specifically on improving local policing. We have swept away central targets and red tape to free 2011-12 625.3 up more officers to work on the frontline. Police and 2012-13 645.9 crime commissioners, regular beat meetings, and the 2013-14 (to 30 June 2013) 174.2 publication of street-level crime and antisocial behaviour These figures include expenditure by MOD Trading data and crime outcomes information on police.uk are Funds, but do not include payments which may have making policing more transparent, accountable and been made on behalf of other Government Departments accessible to local communities. by the MOD’s executive non-departmental public bodies These reforms are working: recorded crime has fallen (which lie outside the MOD’s accounting boundary), by more than 10% during this Government and the locally by the Department, through third parties such 2011-12 Crime Survey for England and Wales shows as prime contractors or other Government Departments that just under two thirds of adults thought that the and in relation to collaborative projects where the payments police in their area were doing a good or excellent job. 783W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 784W

Correspondence Mr Harper: The allegations database came into operation on 30 September 2012. From this date until 30 June 2013 it had received 48,660 allegations. The allegations Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for the data is taken from the Allegation Management System Home Department (1) if it is her policy that hon. (AMS). Members have presumed consent when meeting representatives on behalf of their constituents and their Notes: relatives concerning visit visas and immigration and 1. All figures quoted are management information which has nationality matters; and if she will make a statement; been subject to internal quality checks. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. [162848] 2. The numerical information contained within has been rounded (2) if she will clarify the policy of her Department in to the nearest five. response to representations from hon. Members on behalf of their constituents; and if she will make a Devolution statement; [162849] (3) whether it is now the policy of her Department to Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for refuse to provide information to hon. Members who the Home Department if she will place in the Library make representations on behalf of their constituents; any concordats which her Department or the public [162850] bodies for which she is responsible have with the devolved (4) if she will clarify the use by her Department of the administrations. [163153] Data Protection Act 1998 as justification for refusing to provide a substantive reply to representations from hon. James Brokenshire: The Memoranda of Understanding Members. [162851] and Supplementary Agreements, agreed in September 2012, set out the principles which underlie the relationship between the UK Government and the devolved Mr Harper [holding answer 2 July 2013]: Disclosure Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. of information to MPs is governed by the Data Protection These documents are available in the House Libraries. Act 1998 (DPA). The Home Office is currently discussing a concordat MPs can access information about the Home Office’s with the Welsh Government and with the Scottish policy in relation to the release of information to MPs Government. Once agreed they will be published online on its website at: through the Cabinet Office website and copies placed in www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/informationformps/ the House Libraries. This information details the circumstances under which Each public body is responsible for any concordat it a full or a limited third party response will be issued to has agreed with counterparts in the devolved MPs. Administrations, and for providing information on them. This information is not retained centrally.

Crime: Databases Domestic Violence: Hampshire

Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Department how many (a) arrests, (b) deportations the Home Department (1) what the terms of reference and (c) investigations have been made as a result of the are for the reducing bureaucracy pilots in respect of allegations database since it came into operation. domestic violence complaints in the county of Hampshire; [162773] [162964] (2) what methodology her Department used to inform Mr Harper: Since 30 September 2012, when the the reducing bureaucracy pilots in respect of domestic Allegations Management System (AMS) was introduced, violence complaints in Hampshire; [162965] allegations have resulted in 2,695 investigations with (3) what evaluation she has made of Phase 1 of the visits by Immigration Enforcement officers, 1,840 arrests reducing bureaucracy pilots on domestic violence and 660 removals. This figure includes deportations and Hampshire. [162966] administrative removals. Mr Jeremy Browne: The pilot was set up under the The arrest and visits data is taken from the National then joint Association of Chief Police Officers/Home Offenders Database (NOD) and the removals information Office Reducing Bureaucracy Programme Board, chaired is from the Case Information Database (CID). The data by Chief Constable Chris Sims, currently transferring covers the period up to the end of May 2013. to the College of Policing. The aim of the pilot was to Notes: develop a proportionate and risk based approach to 1. All figures quoted are management information which has responding to reports of domestic abuse. been subject to internal quality checks. This information has not Development of Phase 1 of the pilot was informed by been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. published academic research and consultation with 2. The numerical information contained within has been rounded academic experts in the study of domestic violence. to the nearest five. The evaluation of Phase 1 of the pilot consisted of a process evaluation to understand how the pilot affected Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home the process of risk identification and management. Department how many allegations the allegations database Issues arising from Phase 1 are now informing the has received since it came into operation. [162774] development of the next phase of the pilot. 785W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 786W

Drugs: Crime Mr Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many and what proportion of Tier 4 visa applications to study in a (a) university, (b) Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the further education college and (c) private college were Home Department what estimate she has made of refused by the UK Border Agency in each of the last trends of those who take legal highs moving on to take three years. [163223] illegal drugs; and if she will make a statement. [162922]

Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government has not made Mr Harper: There were 74,365, 39,728 and 19,506 an estimate of trends in the number of individuals who decisions to refuse Tier 4-General Student visa applications take new psychoactive substances (NPS), or so-called (for main applicants) in 2010, 2011 and 2012 respectively. “legal highs”, moving on to take illegal drugs. This represented 23%, 15%, and 10% of decisions in this category each year. The Government takes the issue of NPS use very seriously and is leading the global effort to tackle the Corresponding information is not available for individual threat they pose. Although sometimes referred to as educational sectors. ″legal highs″, NPS cannot be assumed to be safe and The latest Home Office immigration statistics, including often contain a mixture of substances including controlled those for entry clearance visas, are published in the drugs. release Immigration Statistics January-March 2013, which We are working with the Advisory Council on the is available from the Library of the House and on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) to develop our evidence Department’s website at: base and with wider partners to target these drugs on all https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ fronts. The NPS Action Plan, which provides the framework series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release for Government activity, sets out how we aim to reduce demand by raising awareness of the harms associated with NPS; make it difficult to obtain and supply NPS Hizb-ut-Tahrir that pose risks to health; and ensure that statutory services are able to effectively provide treatment and Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the recovery. Home Department whether Hizb-ut-Tahrir is active on UK university campuses; and what assessment she has Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the made of the level of any such activity. [161583] Home Department what estimate she has made of the annual cost to her Department of policing illegal highs; James Brokenshire: As outlined in the Prevent Strategy and if she will make a statement. [162924] 2011 we believe there is unambiguous evidence to indicate that some extremist organisations, including Hizb-ut-Tahrir Damian Green: The Home Office has not made an (HuT), target specific universities and colleges (notably estimate of the annual cost of policing illegal highs. those with a large number of Muslim students) with the objective of influencing and recruiting students to support their agenda. We are aware of a small number of Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Universities in the UK where HuT have an influence. We keep the threat of extremism on university campuses Mr Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for the under review, and the Department for Business, Innovation Home Department how many and what proportion of and Skills works with Universities and Student Unions students with a Tier 4 visa approving study in a (a) to ensure they are aware of the risks and are given university, (b) further education college and (c) support, advice and guidance to help them manage private college (i) enrolled in the institution, (ii) these. The recently appointed Prevent regional co-ordinators remained until the end of the course and (iii) returned for Further and Higher Educational institutions are to their home country in the last three years. [163222] identifying pockets of extremist ideology in universities, and helping to equip institutions and student groups to Mr Harper: We do not hold data in a form which challenge those ideas. allows us to answer the questions posed. On an individual sponsor basis, the Home Office can manually match and reconcile data to identify students Immigration Controls that have enrolled at an institution and remained until the end of the course. However, providing data for all Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Tier 4 Sponsors covering over 300,000 Confirmations Home Department pursuant to the answer of 3 June of Acceptance to Study (CAS) annually would require a 2013, Official Report, columns 908-9W, on immigration large scale and disproportionately costly data reconciliation controls, for what reason the number of visits exceeded process. the number of applications in 15 out of the 24 months Similarly, reconciling data on all Tier 4 students that in the figures given. [162455] have returned to their home country would also require a large-scale reconciliation process. Mr Harper: Home Office officials may visit a sponsor The Home Office can readily provide data on CAS for a number of reasons or on one or more occasion. issued by sponsors; CAS used by applicants; successful They may visit before or after a licence is granted, or as visa applicants; and on sponsor reporting of non- part of a scheduled review of a sponsor’s licence. Sponsors attendance. may also request a visit. 787W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 788W

Immigration: Appeals Mr Harper: For 2013-14, the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice have allocated £3 million to fund the Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Salvation Army adult victim care contract in England Home Department in what proportion of immigration and Wales. appeal cases her Department withdrew its decision on The cost of the contract in 2011-12 was £2 million the day of the hearing in each of the last three years. and, in 2012-13, was £3 million. [163356] The Home Office and the Ministry of Justice keep the funding position under review. Mr Harper: A complete set of data for all appeal types is not held centrally and the information requested Serco can be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Immigration: Married People Home Department how much her Department currently spends on contracts with Serco; and how much was Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the spent in each year since 2008. [162939] Home Department how many people have had their spousal visa cancelled in each year since 2008. [162744] James Brokenshire: For the last full financial year, 2012-13, the Home Department’s total expenditure on Mr Harper: In answering this question we have taken contracts with Serco was £109.1 million. “cancelled” to mean spousal visas that were granted The Home Department’s expenditure on contracts and subsequently the applicants’ leave was curtailed. with Serco since financial year 2008-09 is detailed in the Table 1: Curtailed spousal applications, despatched between January 2008 and following table. Spend figures for the current financial March 2013 year 2013-14 are not yet available. Decisions despatched Spouse/partner curtailed Financial year Expenditure (£ million) 2008 536 2009 426 2008-09 122.7 2010 418 2009-10 105.1 2011 226 2010-11 92.1 2012 180 2011-12 89.6 2013 58 2012-13 109.1 Notes: 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information and are UK Border Agency therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 2. Figures relate to main applicants only. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the 3. Data relate to curtailments dispatched between 1 January 2008 and 31 March 2013. Home Department what the budget of the UK Border 4. Data relate to sponsor visas and applications curtailed. Agency was in each year of its establishment. [160075] 5. Curtailment data relates to both spouse and partner applications. These data cannot be disaggregated to show spouse applications only. Mr Harper: The Budgets for the UK Border Agency for the financial years 2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-12 are Recruitment detailed in the Annual Reports that can be found on the Home Office website via the following link Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ Department in which newspapers the post of (a) Director aboutus/annual-reports-accounts/ of Immigration and Visas and (b) Director of Enforcement The details of the UK Border Agency budget for has been advertised; and what the cost has been of such 2012-13 will be published shortly. advertising. [162419] Connaught Asset Management Mr Harper: This question is answered on the basis that the director of immigration and visas refers to the Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for the director general, UK visas and immigration and the Home Department what investigations HM Revenue director of enforcement refers to the director general, and Customs plans to make into the Connaught Income immigration enforcement. Series 1 Fund over alleged fraudulent activity; and what We expect to advertise the role of director general, investigations her Department has already made on this immigration enforcement on the external market shortly. matter. [162990] The advertising strategy has not been finalised. The role of director general, UK visas and immigration will be Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply on behalf of advertised later in the year. the Treasury. HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is legally prohibited Salvation Army from discussing the tax affairs of identifiable businesses. Section 18 of the Commissioners for Revenues Customs Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Act 2005 imposes a duty of confidentiality upon officers the Home Department what the estimated cost of the of HMRC which means they are unable to disclose Salvation Army’s Trafficking Support Scheme will be information which relates to functions of HMRC. This in 2013-14; and what the cost of this scheme was in (a) includes any specific action taken in response to information 2011-12 and (b) 2012-13. [162894] provided. 789W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 790W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Glastonbury Festival Broadband Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will estimate the Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for financial effects of the Glastonbury music festival on Culture, Media and Sport what assessment she has the (a) local and (b) national economy. [163101] made of local authorities’ capacity to match-fund the further £250 million in funding for superfast broadband Mr Vaizey: The Glastonbury music festival is a great which has been proposed for 2015. [163643] example of the strength and diversity of the UK’s live music industry. While we produce economic estimates Mr Vaizey: Local authorities and the devolved on the value of the creative industries to the UK economy, Administrations have allocated over £700 million of including the music industry, we do not do so for funding from local funds and the European regional specific music festivals. development fund for the current rural broadband projects, reflecting the priority that these bodies give to implementation of superfast broadband. The Government Internet: Children is confident that they will continue to recognise the benefits of investing in broadband delivery. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will publish the minutes Digital Broadcasting: North Yorkshire of and list the attendees at the recent internet and child safety summit held by her Department. [163314] Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what steps she has taken to Mr Vaizey: Attendees at the internet summit on 18 improve the digital television signal for residents of (a) June are listed as follows. While no formal minutes were North Yorkshire and (b) Harrogate and Knaresborough taken, a number of actions were agreed. These were: all constituency. [162248] attendees signing a ’zero tolerance’ pledge in relation to child abuse images online; a new proactive role for the Mr Vaizey: Ofcom estimates that 98.5% of UK IWF and CEOP; additional funding from a number of households have access to 17 channels including public internet service providers to support this new proactive service broadcasting (PSB) services on the digital terrestrial role; the adoption of ’splash pages’ by all relevant television (DTT) platform, and just under 90% of organisations by the end of June, and; for all attendees households are also able to receive these and additional to report to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media DTT channels. Around 1.5% of UK households cannot and Sport within one month on the opportunities for easily receive DTT services with less than 0.5% not able greater use of technology to support the new proactive to receive DTT services at all. However, DTT, cable and approach in removing child abuse images. satellite digital television services together cover practically Maria Miller MP, Secretary of State, DCMS 100% of UK households, so that in all but the most Damian Green MP, Minister of State for Policing and Criminal exceptional of cases, everyone should be able to get Justice, Home Office digital television by one means or another. As well as Edward Timpson MP, Minister for Children and Families, subscription services, digital satellite TV offers non- DFE subscription reception options for a one-off equipment Claire Perry MP, Prime Minister’s adviser on the sexualisation and installation cost, but with no on-going monthly and commercialisation of children payments. There are no plans to require broadcasters to Internet Watch Foundation improve the DTT coverage levels agreed for digital television switchover in 2006. CEOP The current DTT coverage figures for the North Yahoo Yorkshire and the Harrogate and Knaresborough Google constituency are set out in the table. Microsoft Twitter Percentage Facebook DTT Services 3 PSB DTT Services All 6 Multiplexes (access to National Multiplexes British Telecommunications 17 channels including (access to all channels British Sky Broadcasting Area PSB channel) on DTT) Virgin Media North Yorkshire 98 86 Talk Talk Harrogate and 100 99 Knaresborough Vodafone O2/Telefonica Europe Coverage is dependent on viewers having suitable Everything Everywhere rooftop aerials that are directed to the most technically Three UK appropriate transmitter for the specific address, and also depends on there being no significant localised obstructions such as trees or tall buildings within (or Music: Festivals and Special Occasions near) the path between the viewer’s aerial and the transmitter. Viewers can check which transmitter serves Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State their own location with Digital UK on 08456 50 50 50 for Culture, Media and Sport if she will make an or at assessment of the benefits to the economy of the music www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker festival industry. [163102] 791W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 792W

Mr Vaizey: The UK’s creative industries and tourism Mr Vaizey: The following table sets out S4C’s allocation are among the sectors with the greatest potential to for the financial years 2013-14 and 2014-15and the drive economic growth. While we produce economic percentage change between those years. estimates on the value of the creative industries to the UK economy, including the music industry, we do not £ million do so for the music festival industry. Total funding From DCMS From BBC

2013-14 82.861 6.561 76.3 Public Lending Right 2014-15 82.787 16,787 76 1 +3.4%. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what steps she plans to take Serco to prevent infringement of intellectual property rights resulting from the lending of e-books and audio books Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for by public libraries; and whether she plans to commence Culture, Media and Sport how much her Department the provisions in the Digital Economy Act 2010 that currently spends on contracts with Serco; and how extend public lending right to e-books and audio much was spent in each year since 2008. [162931] books. [162505] Maria Miller: The Department for Culture, Media Mr Vaizey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I and Sport has incurred no expenditure with Serco from gave him on 1 July 2013, Official Report, column 458W. 2008 to the present, nor does the Department have any current contracts with Serco. Public Libraries Staff Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had with (a) Media and Sport how much her Department spent on other government departments and (b) non-governmental (a) recruitment agency fees, (b) outplacement agency bodies on strengthening the role of libraries in (i) promoting fees for displaced or redundant staff and (c) staff digital and other forms of literacy and (ii) providing training in each of the last 12 months. [162611] access to public computers in (A) areas of serious deprivation and (B) other areas, and otherwise furthering Mr Vaizey: The information is as follows: national policy. [162378] (a) Recruitment agency fees are contained within the Mr Vaizey [holding answer 1 July 2013]: invoices submitted by the agency, the rate of charge will vary depending on the individual candidates pay rates I recently had discussions with the Minister for Civil but this charge is not separately identified on the invoice Society, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, hence the Department is unable to separate agency Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) and I am due to charges from the overall payment to the agency for each meet Ministers in Cabinet Office, Department of Work candidate. and Pensions and the Department for Communities and Local Government on the Government digital agenda (b) The Department paid outplacement fees for displaced in the provision of the library services. In addition, Arts or redundant staff of £63,000 in October 2012. Council England (ACE) as an arms-length body of (c) The amount the Department spent on staff training Government has identified four priorities to sustain and and development in total in the last 12 months is set out develop a 21st century public library service including in the table: making the most of digital technology and creative media. While many public library services run by the Cost (£) local authorities across England already promote digital literacy and provision of access to computers and the April 25,903.00 internet, the Society of Chief Librarians (SCL) in May 3,730.50 partnership with ACE and The Reading Agency, launched June 3,336.30 the Universal Offer’s initiative in January 2013 which July 5,219.30 included the Universal Digital Offer that defined the August 3,124.46 minimum a public library authority should provide and September 0 what customers should expect from their public library. October 34,445.64 This includes free access to the internet for every customer November 20,091.10 for a minimum period of time and staff trained to help December 992.80 customers access digital information. This initiative is January 3,945.38 being rolled out across public libraries in England during February 20,331.00 2013. March 11,986.68 Total 133,106.16 S4C Telecommunications Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what the percentage change is in her Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s funding for S4C over the next two years. Culture, Media and Sport whether she plans to publish [154784] a White Paper on a draft Communications Bill. [159102] 793W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 794W

Mr Vaizey: The Government has been working closely 8. £1,290.60 with industry and others to see how we can improve our 9. £636 digital infrastructure and ensure proper protections are 10. £500 put in place for consumers. We will be taking action 2010-11 where necessary, and will set out our strategy and vision for the sector shortly. Total cost of courses: £324,698. Monetary value of 10 highest training course fees in Training the year: 1. £13,500 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2. £11,162 Media and Sport how many officials in (a) her Department and (b) the non-departmental public 3. £10,950 bodies for which she is responsible enrolled in 4. £10,950 publicly-funded training courses in each of the last five 5. £10,950 years; what the total cost has been of such courses; and 6. £9,204 what the monetary value was of the 10 highest training 7. £7,578 course fees in each such year. [155424] 8. £7,507 9. £7,123.20 Mr Vaizey: DCMS does not hold central data for the number of delegates attending training courses—attendance 10. £6,765 is authorised and responsibility devolved to line managers 2009-10 to ensure individuals are getting the training and learning Total cost of courses: £525,068. they need to do their jobs and develop their competences. Monetary value of 10 highest training course fees in The monetary value for the total cost of courses and the the year: 10 highest training course fees in each year is detailed as 1. £21,936 follows. 2. £17,450 DCMS does not hold data for its public bodies. 3. £15,170 2012-13 3. £12,097 Total cost of courses: £102,866. 4. £12,000 Monetary value of 10 highest training course fees in 5. £11,979 the year: 6. £10,500 1. £30,000 7. £10,500 2. £12,500 8. £10,089 3. £9,500 9. £9,100 4. £6,500 10. £8,828 5. £4,850 2008-09 6. £4,386 We do not hold records for this period. 7. £3,756 8. £3,215 Travel 9. £1,611 10. £1,611 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much her Department 2011-12 spent on ministerial travel by (a) Government Car Total cost of courses: £110,102. Service, (b) private hire vehicles, (c) taxis, (d) rail, (e) Monetary value of 10 highest training course fees in aviation and (f) other means in each year of the the year: current parliament. [157542] 1. £12,500 2. £10,966.80 Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport spend on car services for ministerial travel through 3. £10,800 the Government Car Service, is set out in the table. 4. £9,125 Details of the costs for 2012-13 will be published in the 5. £9,012 normal way later this year. The Department spend on 6. £5,760 other forms of ministerial travel is also included in the 7. £5,400 following table:

£ T and S/Overseas (including rail and flight Ministerial cars through GCS Taxis Other cars travel) Totals

2009-10 305,397.32 4,225.33 937.92 32,870.00 343,430.57 2010-11 90,739.92 3,247.80 637.92 28,755.00 123,380.64 2011-12 1,740.81 11,596.69 1,637.45 47,646.00 62,620.95 2012-13 n/a 10,185.00 0.00 42,257.00 52,442.00 Total 397,878.05 29,254.82 3,213.29 151,528.00 581,874.16 795W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 796W

Vending Machines last 10 years are shown in the following table. We are unable to identify nurse practitioners who work specifically Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for within accident and emergency departments as they are Culture, Media and Sport how many vending machines not separately identified in the annual census. in her Department’s premises contain snack foods that Hospital and Community Health Services: medical staff in the are high in calories and low in nutritional value. accident and emergency specialty group: England at 30 September [163208] each year Full-time equivalents Mr Vaizey: The supply and maintenance of vending Consultant Registrar group machines on the Department’s premises is provided 2002 511 334 under the private finance initiative contract for the 2003 544 406 building for HMRC. The Department does not hold 2004 596 551 this information. 2005 665 686 2006 697 778 2007 720 1,643 HEALTH 2008 790 1,871 ABP Food Group 2009 906 1,873 2010 1,013 2,016 2011 1,100 2,117 Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 1,230 2,127 Health what inquiries his Department has made into Note: (a) the beneficial ownership of the network of companies Data quality associated with the ABP Food Group and their relationship The Health and Social Care Information Centre seeks to minimise with Larry Goodman, (b) the frauds he is known to inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility have committed and (c) the investigations into fraudulent for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality. mis-labelling of meat in Northern Ireland. [163379] Where changes impact on figures already published, this is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Anna Soubry: We understand from the Food Standards Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. Agency (FSA) that after consideration of all emerging Source: evidence, the beneficial ownership of the network of Health and Social Care Information Centre Medical and Dental companies associated with the ABP Food Group and their relationship with Larry Goodman was not deemed Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to fall under the scope of the FSA investigations. what estimate he has made of the number of doctors It was not within the remit of the FSA investigations choosing to specialise in emergency medicine following to consider any other alleged frauds involving Larry their (a) Foundation Year 1 and (b) Foundation Year Goodman that have been investigated in the past. 2 in each of the last 10 years. [163217] The FSA led a number of investigations into the contamination of beef products with horse and pig Dr Poulter: The breakdown of the number of Foundation DNA. Inquiries were made by local authorities into Year 2 doctors who chose to specialise in emergency ABP owned businesses as part of these investigations medicine is not available centrally. and there was no evidence to suggest that there were any illegal activities to pursue. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The FSA is aware of one investigation being conducted how many and what proportion of national training by a local authority in Northern Ireland which involves posts for emergency medicine were unfilled in each of the fraudulent mis-labelling of meat. This is a live the last five years. [163218] investigation being conducted under police warrant, and the FSA cannot provide any further information at Dr Poulter: The following information provided by this point so as not to prejudice that investigation and Health Education England shows the Emergency Medicine any potential legal action that may flow from it. There ST4 training and vacancy numbers from 2011-13. is no association between this investigation and the ABP Food Group or Larry Goodman. Total number of posts Total number of vacancies Accident and Emergency Departments 2011 202 119 2012 196 110 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2013 235 139 what estimate he has made of the number of (a) Source: Health Education England consultants, (b) registrars and (c) nurse practitioners working in accident and emergency departments in It should be noted that information for years 2009 England in each of the last 10 years. [163216] and 2010 is not held centrally due to the national recruitment system being implemented in 2011. Dr Poulter: The annual NHS workforce census published by the Health and Social Care Information Centre Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health shows the number of consultants and registrars working what estimate he has made of the number of unfilled in accident and emergency departments in England at posts in accident and emergency departments in each 30 September each year. The numbers working in accident hospital trust in England in each of the last five years. and emergency departments in England in each of the [163219] 797W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 798W

Dr Poulter: The information in the following tables is Accident and Emergency vacancies 2010 2009 taken from the Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) Vacancies Survey March 2010 and England (Total) 91 82 March 2009. The surveys focus on vacancies within North East SHA area 1 2 NHS hospital and community health services. This North West SHA area 24 9 information has not been collected and held centrally Yorkshire and the Humber SHA area 8 3 since March 2010. East Midlands SHA area 5 3 HSCIC can provide vacancy data by strategic health West Midlands SHA area 18 7 authority (SHA) area and organisation for consultants East of England SHA area 3 0 with an accident and emergency specialty. Data provided London SHA area 14 30 is for consultants, as specialty data within the vacancy South East Coast SHA area 5 4 collection was gathered for consultants only. The figures South Central SHA area 5 5 quoted are the numbers of vacancies which employers South West SHA area 8 20 Special health authorities and other 00 were actively trying to fill as at 31 March in each year. statutory bodies Top line data relating to each SHA area is publicly Source: available on the HSCIC website. HSCIC Vacancies Survey 2010 and 2009

Accident and Emergency vacancies 2010—Breakdown by organisation Number

England (total) 91 North East SHA area 1 North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust 1 North West SHA area 24 Royal Bolton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 1 East Cheshire NHS Trust 1 North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust 1 Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust 16 Southport and Ormskirk Hospital NHS Trust 1 Warrington and Halton Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 4 Yorkshire and the Humber SHA area 8 Northern Lincolnshire and Goole Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 6 The Rotherham NHS Foundation Trust 1 Scarborough And North East Yorkshire Health Care NHS Trust 1 East Midlands SHA area 5 Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 2 Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 2 University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust 1 West Midlands SHA area 18 The Dudley Group of Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 5 George Eliot Hospital NHS Trust 1 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust 1 University Hospital of North Staffordshire NHS Trust 2 University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust 9 East of England SHA area 3 Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 1 Colchester Hospital University NHS Foundation Trust 1 West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 1 London SHA area 14 Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust 2 Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 2 Barts and The London NHS Trust 1 The Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust 1 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust 4 West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 1 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 1 The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 2 South East Coast SHA area 5 Dartford And Gravesham NHS Trust 1 Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust 3 Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust 1 South Central SHA area 5 Isle of Wight NHS PCT 2 Milton Keynes Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 3 South West SHA area 8 Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 1 Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust 1 799W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 800W

Accident and Emergency vacancies 2010—Breakdown by organisation Number

Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust 1 South Devon Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust 2 Great Western Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 1 University Hospitals Bristol NHS Foundation Trust 1 Weston Area Health NHS Trust 1 Special health authorities and other statutory bodies 0 Source: HSCIC Vacancies Survey 2010 Accident and Emergency vacancies 2009—Breakdown by organisation Number

England (total) 82 North East SHA area 2 City Hospitals Sunderland NHS Foundation Trust 1 North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Trust 1 North West SHA area 9 East Cheshire NHS Trust 1 East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust 1 Lancashire Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 2 Warrington and Halton Hospitals NHS Trust 2 Wrightington, Wigan And Leigh NHS Trust 3 Yorkshire and the Humber SHA area 3 Rotherham General Hospitals NHS Trust 2 Scarborough and North East Yorkshire Health Care NHS Trust 1 East Midlands SHA area 3 Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Trust 2 University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust 1 West Midlands SHA area 7 North Staffordshire Hospital NHS Trust 2 University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust 1 University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust 4 East of England SHA area 0 London SHA area 30 Guy’s and St Thomas’s NHS Foundation Trust 19 King’s College Hospital NHS Trust 5 Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust 1 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 1 Queen Mary’s Sidcup NHS Trust 1 Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 2 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust 1 South East Coast SHA area 4 East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust 1 Medway NHS Trust 1 Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust 2 South Central SHA area 5 Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust 5 South West SHA area 20 Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 8 Poole Hospitals NHS Trust 1 Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust 3 Salisbury Health Care NHS Trust 1 The Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 2 United Bristol Healthcare NHS Trust 3 Weston Area Health NHS Trust 2 Special health authorities and other statutory bodies 0 Source: HSCIC Vacancies Survey 2009.

Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health recommendations this year to address workforce shortages what steps his Department is taking to prevent low for both the short and long term. staffing levels in accident and emergency departments in England. [163220] HEE has been created to ensure the national health service has the right staff with the right skills, values Dr Poulter: The Department has mandated and behaviours in the right place at the right time, in the Health Education England (HEE) to urgently review right numbers. This includes working to deliver new the workforce issues in emergency medicine and produce generations of skilled staff to areas where there is 801W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 802W established need, as well as working to support employers admission episodes to hospital with a primary diagnosis in encouraging existing staff to work in these areas. are associated with cocaine use for each year since 2006- This includes our accident and emergency departments 07 are given in the following table. It is important to (A&E). The taskforce looking into the issue of A&E note that finished admission episodes do not represent staffing is due to report in summer 2013 and HEE will the number of inpatients, as a person may have more work with colleagues across the NHS and in education than one admission within the year to deliver the actions it recommends. Finished admission episodes where the primary diagnosis is associated with cocaine use, 2006-07 to 2011-12 Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs: Harlow Finished admission episodes

2006-07 1,086 Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 1,376 Health (1) how much his Department has spent on 2008-09 1,375 drug rehabilitation in Harlow in each year since 2005; 2009-10 1,025 [162890] 2010-11 1,107 (2) how much his Department has spent on alcohol 2011-12 1,027 rehabilitation in Harlow in each year since 2005. Notes: [162893] 1. A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the Anna Soubry: Information on spending on alcohol number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the and drug treatment in Harlow is not collected centrally. year. 2. Primary diagnosis codes used: The treatment of drug dependence among residents F14.0 Mental and behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: acute intoxication. of Harlow in the period 2005-06 to 2012-13 was supported F14.1 Mental and behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: harmful use. F14.2 Mental and behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: dependence by money allocated by the Department to Essex primary syndrome. care trust through the Adult Pooled Treatment Budget. F14.3 Mental and behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: withdrawal The allocations covering Essex in this period are shown state. F14.5 Mental and behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: psychotic in the following table: disorder. F14.7 Mental and behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: residual & £ million late-onset psychotic disorder. F14.8 Mental & behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: other mental and 2005-06 4.7 behaviour disorder. F14.9 Mental & behaviour disorder due to the use of cocaine: unspecified 2006-07 6.1 mental and behaviour disorder. 2007-08 5.7 R78.2 Finding of cocaine in blood. T40.5 Poisoning by Cocaine. 2008-09 5.6 3. HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over 2009-10 5.5 time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and 2010-11 4.9 coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For 2011-12 5.0 example, apparent reductions in activity may be due to a number of procedures 2012-13 5.4 which may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and so no longer include in admitted patient HES data. From April 2013, alcohol and drug prevention, treatment Source: and recovery activity are funded from a ring-fenced Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre grant allocated to local authorities to fund all of their public health responsibilities. Cystic Fibrosis In 2013-14, Essex’s public health grant allocation is £48.9 million. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Each local authority is free to determine their actual for Health what steps he is taking to facilitate the spend on alcohol and drug prevention, treatment and increase in lung donation for transplantation in respect recovery based on an assessment of need. They will be of patients with cystic fibrosis; and if he will make a required to report their spending in these areas on an statement. [162921] annual basis. Alcoholic Drinks: Drugs Anna Soubry: We have a number of initiatives to encourage people to add their name to the Organ Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Donation Register (ODR). Much of this work is led by how many women have been admitted to hospital with NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) in conjunction symptoms of drink spiking in each of the last six years. with a number of partners in the private, public and [163018] third sectors. For example, people may sign up to the Anna Soubry: The information which is collected ODR when they register with a new general practitioner, centrally about hospital admissions for drug poisoning when applying for a new passport, when applying for a does not say whether a drug was administered via a European Health Insurance Card and when applying spiked drink. for a Boots advantage card. We have established a Cocaine prompted choice scheme, working in partnership with the Department for Transport and the Driver and Vehicle Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Licensing Agency, which requires people applying for a how many people have been admitted to hospital as a result driving licence on-line to consider organ donation. of cocaine use in each of the last six years. [163017] NHSBT also run multi media campaigns, education Anna Soubry: Data on the number of hospital admissions programmes in schools and community engagement are collected by finished admission episodes rather than programmes to raise awareness of organ donation and by number of people. Data on the number of finished promote registration on the ODR. They also organise 803W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 804W

National Transplant Week, an annual event to raise The Department, through Public Health England, awareness of organ donation, to motivate people to act has provided ring-fenced funding for the first time to and join the ODR and to discuss their wishes with their local authorities to tackle problems such as obesity loved ones. Transplant Week 2013 will take place between which can prevent diabetes. 8-14 July. Alongside this, we are working with businesses in the We have also set up the National Black, Asian and food and drink industry through the Public Health Minority Ethnic Transplant Alliance to increase the Responsibility Deal to help people make healthier choices. number of Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic people on Drugs: Misuse bone marrow and whole organ registers, and to increase donation rates in those communities. During the past five years we have seen a 50% increase Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in organ donors and 30% more organs being transplanted (1) how many accident and emergency (a) attendances than five years ago, which will have benefitted those and (b) admissions relating to (i) illegal drug use and affected by cystic fibrosis and the need for a lung (ii) legal high use there were (A) in total and (B) in each transplant. However, there is a still lot to do. NHSBT hospital trust in each of the last three years for which will shortly be publishing their strategy ‘Taking Organ figures are available; and if he will make a statement; Transplantation to 2020’. The strategy builds on the [162923] Organ Donation Taskforce recommendations and identifies (2) how many people aged (a) 0to18and(b) 19 new ways to make sure that as many people as possible and above were admitted to hospital following the in the United Kingdom receive the transplant they abuse of (i) illegal drugs and (ii) legal highs in each of need. the last three years for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [162925] Diabetes Anna Soubry: The information which is collected Mr Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Health centrally about hospital admissions does not separately whether the treatment and prevention of diabetes will identify newer substances such as legal highs or identify remain a priority for his Department. [162885] whether a drug has been taken legally or illegally. For example, the information collected on opiate related Anna Soubry: Diabetes remains a priority for this admissions does not distinguish between opiates that Government. have been prescribed for a medical reason and opiates The Department’s NHS Outcomes Framework and taken to get ’high’. Mandate outline the improvements in health and health Health Services: Yorkshire and the Humber care that we envisage the national health service achieving. Through the Mandate, we have asked NHS England Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for to make measurable progress towards making the NHS Health how many NHS staff in Hull and East Yorkshire among the best in Europe at supporting people with Primary Care Trust were paid over (a) £50,000, (b) on-going health problems such as diabetes to live healthy £65,738 and (c) £100,000 in each of the last three years and independent lives, with better control over the care for which figures are available. [163214] they receive. Diabetes is also included in the Cardiovascular Disease Dr Poulter: As part of the changes brought about by Outcome Strategy, published in March 2013, which the Health and Social Care Act 2012, primary care reiterates our commitment to the NHS Health Check trusts were legally abolished on 1 April 2013. At the programme. NHS England will be working with Public time of their closure there was no organisation known Health England to make the NHS Health Check as the Hull and East Yorkshire Primary Care Trust programme as effective as possible, helping to reduce (PCT). However, there were two separate PCTs, Hull people’s risk of developing diabetes through advice on Teaching PCT and East Riding Yorkshire PCT. The lifestyle factors and the earlier diagnosis of diabetes. figures provided as follows are for these two organisations.

Number of staff in Hull Teaching PCT Number of staff in East Riding of Yorkshire PCT Salary 31 March 2013 31 March 2012 31 March 2011 31 March 2013 31 March 2012 31 March 2011

Over £50,000 33 28 35 42 33 47 Of which: Over £65,738 13 11 12 27 19 17 Of which: Over £100,000 411322

These figures are sourced from the Health and Social Heart Diseases Care Information Centre, NHS Staff Earnings Estimates. They represent staff paid using the NHS Electronic Staff Record system. They are based on the actual basic Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pay that an individual earned in March each year, pursuant to the answer of 3 June 2013, Official Report, multiplied by 12. They do not include redundancy column 840W, on heart diseases, what steps have been payments or bonuses. taken by NHS England, working with the Resuscitation Council, the British Heart Foundation and others, to 805W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 806W consider ways of increasing the numbers of people are encouraged to adopt the Food GBS, which includes trained in cardiopulmonary resuscitation; and what recommendations on reducing fat and salt, including steps NHS England plans to take to inform the public more fruit and vegetables on the menu and making sure how they can increase their chances of surviving a heart food is bought in an environmentally sustainable way. attack. [163089] There is guidance that caterers could use to help provide food that meets the nutritional needs of adults Anna Soubry: NHS England is currently considering working in NHS organisations—Public Health England how best to take forward work on this in light of recent is planning an update to this guidance. This guidance— discussions about reducing mortality. It currently has “Healthier and more sustainable catering: A toolkit for no immediate plans to run an awareness campaign on serving foods to adults”—can be found on the Department’s either cardiopulmonary resuscitation training or on website: how people can increase their chances of surviving a www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ heart attack. attachment_data/file/147376/dh_127593.pdf.pdf NHS England gave a commitment to work with the The Department also encourages employers to sign Resuscitation Council and the British Heart Foundation up to the Responsibility Deal’s pledge on healthier staff and others to consider ways of increasing the numbers restaurants. This specifically mentions fat, salt and sugar of people trained in cardiopulmonary resuscitation in as well as other recommendations on fruit and vegetables the cardiovascular disease strategy. NHS England will and portion size. Further information is available on the provide details of the way in which it is taking forward Department’s website: this commitment in due course. https://responsibilitydeal.dh.gov.uk/health-at-work-pledges/ Hernias The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence published guidance in December 2006 for the NHS on Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Health tackling obesity: “Guidance on the prevention, if he will make it his policy to recognise 28 June as identification, assessment and management of overweight Congenital Diaphragmatic Hernia Awareness Day. and obesity in adults and children”. It includes [163178] recommendations that the NHS as an employer should actively promote healthier choices in restaurants, hospitality, Dr Poulter: It is not the Department’s role to initiate vending machines and shops. This guidance can be awareness days, as that is up to individual charities and found at: organisations, but we would be content to offer support www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/11000/30364/30364.pdf to an event of this kind. NHS England does not have responsibility for issuing Hospitals: Fast Food guidance to NHS trusts on the sale of foods. Methadone: Harlow Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many fast-food franchises are operating on Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS hospital sites in England; [163049] Health how many registered methadone users there (2) what guidance his Department and NHS have been in Harlow in each year since 2005; and what England issue to hospitals on the sale of foods high in the average spend on each such methadone user has fat, sugar and salt in retail and food outlets on hospital been in that period. [162892] sites. [163050] Anna Soubry: Figures on the number of people receiving Dr Poulter: Decisions on food franchises in hospital prescribed opioid substitute treatment with methadone sites are made locally. Information is not collected and the cost of their treatment in Harlow are not centrally on the number of such franchises in operation. collected centrally. Likewise, any discussions about the food on offer are held locally and are the responsibility of those who Serco agree the contracts between the trust and the outlet. The Department and a number of its agencies issue Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance on food served by the national health service Health how much his Department currently spends on to patients, staff and visitors. Some of this guidance contracts with Serco; and how much was spent in each refers specifically to retail and food outlets. year since 2008. [162938] Government Buying Standards for Food and Catering Services (Food GBS), launched in June 2011, cover Dr Poulter: Information on departmental spend with nutrition and sustainability aspects of food provision. Serco for all financial years from 2008-09 to 2012-13 is Whilst not mandatory for hospitals, NHS organisations shown in the following table.

£

2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Serco Listening Ltd 734,646 477,223 275,570 59,438 5,086,717

Serco Public Services Ltd 3,480,017 3,676,016 4,230,890 3,720,615 3,784,906

Serco Ltd n/a 27,421 32,020 n/a n/a 807W Written Answers4 JULY 2013 Written Answers 808W

In July 2008, the Department implemented a new Where possible, data are adjusted to take into business management system (BMS) which collects consideration the risk of a procedure on patients with enhanced detail on the categorisation, purpose and different risk factors. Improvements in risk adjustment value of orders. This has now given the Department the methodologies will be stimulated by putting data into scope to be more specific about the nature of each the public domain. categorisation. However, information on the period of There will inevitably be a small number of outliers, engagement prior to this is not held on BMS. which is where the consultant’s data is outside an expected Surgery range. A surgeon could be an outlier due to the difficult cases that they undertake and does not necessarily reflect an issue in performance. It is important that the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State data is reviewed by experts so that the published data for Health (1) what factors contribute to surgeons’ are properly understood by all. performance data; [163004] Monitoring and evaluation of data on performance (2) what steps he plans to take to ensure that outcomes will be conducted by NHS England and surgeons are not discouraged from taking on complex Healthcare Quality Improvement Partnership which will cases with high risk because of possible effects on their include surgeons taking on complex cases with high performance data; [163005] risks. (3) what research he has (a) evaluated and (b) commissioned on the possible effects on patient outcomes In adult cardiac surgery, where results have been of (i) publishing surgeons’ performance data and (ii) published at consultant level since 2005, there is no publicly naming surgeons who do not publish performance evidence that publication encourages risk averse behaviour. There has been an annual increase in high risk patients data. [163006] receiving cardiac surgery in the United Kingdom. Despite Anna Soubry: NHS England began the staged publication these high risk patients being given the option of surgery, of mortality rates for individual hospital consultants in mortality rates have actually gone down significantly. 10 specialties, leading a drive to give patients more NHS Choices will act as the central hub of information information about their treatment, helping the national and specialist societies and audits are encouraged to be health service drive up and maintain the quality of care. innovative in the way that data are presented in order to It is intended that publishing outcomes will encourage stimulate further research. professionals to implement treatment options that are The Department has not commissioned any research proven to be most effective for high risk patients, enabling specifically surrounding the effects on patient outcomes an increased number of high risk patients to successfully from the surgeon performance data and publicly naming undergo surgery. surgeons who do not publish performance data. ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 4 July 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 1052 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Association of English Cathedrals ...... 1056 AFFAIRS...... 1037 Bats in Churches ...... 1052 Common Agricultural Policy ...... 1039 Christians in Pakistan ...... 1160 Common Agricultural Policy ...... 1043 Closed Churches (Alternative Use) ...... 1054 Dogs ...... 1037 Credit Unions ...... 1056 Endangered Species ...... 1038 Financial Performance...... 1055 Flood Insurance...... 1045 Hawthorne Skate and BMX Park Desborough, Food Insecurity...... 1041 Northamptonshire ...... 1160 Marine Conservation Zones...... 1044 Kettering Street Pastors ...... 1057 Rural Broadband ...... 1047 Pastoral Care ...... 1053 Topical Questions ...... 1048 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 4 July 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 59WS HEALTH...... 64WS Security Vetting Appeals Panel (Triennial Review). 59WS Strengthening Corporate Accountability ...... 64WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 60WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 64WS Red Tape Challenge ...... 60WS Armed Forces Family Migration...... 64WS Drug Paraphernalia ...... 66WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 60WS Identity and Passport Service...... 67WS Leveson Update ...... 60WS UK Border Agency ...... 67WS JUSTICE...... 67WS DEFENCE...... 61WS Coroners and Justice Act 2009 ...... 67WS Ofsted Annual Report (Armed Forces Initial Training) ...... 61WS TRANSPORT ...... 67WS Reserve Basing Statement Clarification...... 61WS Motorcycle Test Review ...... 67WS

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 62WS TREASURY ...... 59WS Funding of Political Parties ...... 62WS Employee-ownership Sector...... 59WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 68WS AFFAIRS...... 62WS Workplace Defined-contribution Pension Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 62WS Schemes ...... 68WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 4 July 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 734W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Duwayne Brooks...... 734W Vocational Training...... 776W Vending Machines...... 734W CABINET OFFICE...... 759W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 770W Graduates: Unemployment...... 759W Business: Loans...... 770W Higher Education: South Yorkshire ...... 759W Business: Security...... 770W Press: Subscriptions ...... 760W Derby Economic Response Taskforce ...... 771W English Language: Education ...... 771W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 758W EU Grants and Loans: Liverpool ...... 771W Church Closures ...... 758W Further Education: Overseas Students...... 772W Religious Buildings: Fees and Charges...... 758W Green Investment Bank ...... 772W Industrial Disputes: Military Bases...... 773W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 765W New Businesses: Young People ...... 773W Derelict Land...... 765W Oil: Canada...... 774W Disciplinary Proceedings...... 765W Serco ...... 775W Empty Property ...... 765W Sky Lanterns: Sales ...... 775W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 766W Students: Loans ...... 775W Fire Services...... 766W Vending Machines...... 776W Housing: Construction...... 766W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— HEALTH—continued continued Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs: Harlow ...... 801W Public Expenditure...... 767W Alcoholic Drinks: Drugs...... 801W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 768W Cocaine...... 801W Urban Areas: Regeneration...... 768W Cystic Fibrosis ...... 802W Vacancies ...... 769W Diabetes ...... 803W Vending Machines...... 769W Drugs: Misuse...... 804W Health Services: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 804W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 789W Heart Diseases ...... 804W Broadband ...... 789W Hernias ...... 805W Digital Broadcasting: North Yorkshire ...... 789W Hospitals: Fast Food...... 805W Glastonbury Festival...... 790W Methadone: Harlow...... 806W Internet: Children ...... 790W Serco ...... 806W Music: Festivals and Special Occasions...... 790W Surgery...... 807W Public Lending Right...... 791W Public Libraries...... 791W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 782W S4C ...... 791W British Nationality ...... 782W Serco ...... 792W Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre .. 782W Staff ...... 792W Community Policing ...... 782W Telecommunications ...... 792W Connaught Asset Management...... 788W Training ...... 793W Correspondence ...... 783W Travel ...... 794W Crime: Databases...... 783W Vending Machines...... 795W Devolution...... 784W Domestic Violence: Hampshire...... 784W DEFENCE...... 777W Drugs: Crime ...... 785W Armed Forces ...... 777W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 785W Billing ...... 777W Hizb-ut-Tahrir ...... 786W Falkland Islands...... 778W Immigration: Appeals ...... 787W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 778W Immigration Controls ...... 786W Military Aircraft ...... 778W Immigration: Married People...... 787W Military Bases: West Sussex ...... 779W Recruitment ...... 787W Military Decorations: World War II...... 779W Salvation Army...... 787W Nuclear Accident Response Organisation ...... 779W Serco ...... 788W Nuclear Weapons...... 780W UK Border Agency ...... 788W Radioactive Waste: Fife ...... 781W Serco ...... 781W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 713W Palestinians ...... 713W EDUCATION...... 742W Serco ...... 713W Adoption: North Yorkshire...... 742W Free School Meals: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 742W JUSTICE...... 751W Health Education: Drugs ...... 745W Apprentices...... 751W Teachers: Qualifications...... 746W Billing ...... 751W Buildings...... 751W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 728W Contempt of Court...... 752W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 728W Crime: Victims ...... 752W Energy: Meters...... 729W Criminal Proceedings ...... 753W Offshore Industry...... 729W European Convention on Human Rights...... 754W Renewable Energy...... 729W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 754W Social Networking ...... 730W HM Courts and Tribunals Service...... 754W Homicide ...... 754W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Immigrants: Detainees ...... 755W AFFAIRS...... 730W Judges: Veterans...... 755W Animal Welfare ...... 731W Landlord and Tenant ...... 755W Dairy Products: Ireland ...... 732W Legal Aid Scheme: Wales...... 756W Flood Defences...... 731W Press: Subscriptions ...... 757W Floods: Insurance ...... 732W Prisoners: Death ...... 757W Pollinators...... 731W Termination of Employment...... 758W Polyisobutene...... 732W Rural Businesses ...... 730W PRIME MINISTER ...... 733W Bilderberg Group...... 733W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 760W Food Banks...... 733W British Overseas Territories...... 760W Ian Livingston...... 733W Canada ...... 762W Social Networking ...... 733W Eritrea...... 762W Trident ...... 734W Serco ...... 763W South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands ...... 763W TRANSPORT ...... 717W Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 764W A27 ...... 717W Billing ...... 718W HEALTH...... 795W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 718W ABP Food Group...... 795W Legal Costs ...... 718W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 795W M54: M6 Toll ...... 719W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Mobile Phones...... 720W Interest Rate Swap Transactions ...... 715W Network Rail ...... 720W Public Expenditure...... 716W Press: Subscriptions ...... 721W Public Sector: Redundancy Pay...... 716W Railways...... 721W Tiuta ...... 716W Rescue Services: Belfast ...... 722W VAT: Public Sector...... 716W Roads: Construction...... 722W Shipping: Conditions of Employment...... 723W WALES...... 728W Shipping: Crew ...... 723W Serco ...... 728W Shipping: Qualifications...... 724W Social Networking ...... 728W Sick Leave ...... 724W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 764W Staff ...... 725W Serco ...... 764W Tolls...... 726W Transport: Finance...... 726W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 735W Travel ...... 727W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 735W Vacancies ...... 728W Housing Benefits: Social Rented Housing...... 735W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 736W TREASURY ...... 713W National Insurance Contributions: Average Earnings ...... 713W Self-Employed...... 738W British Overseas Territories...... 714W Staff ...... 738W Business: Government Assistance ...... 714W State Retirement Pensions: Wales...... 740W Business: Loans...... 714W Vocational Training...... 740W Connaught Asset Management...... 715W Welfare State: Reform ...... 741W Devolution...... 715W Work Programme...... 741W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 11 July 2013

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CONTENTS

Thursday 4 July 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1037] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Church Commissioners

Business of the House [Col. 1059] Statement—(Mr Lansley)

Remploy [Col. 1079] Statement—(Esther McVey)

Backbench Business NATO [Col. 1094] Motion—(Hugh Bayley)—agreed to Corporate Structures and Financial Crime [Col. 1136] Motion—(John Mann)—lapsed

Petitions [Col. 1160]

Stafford Hospital [Col. 1161] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Post-2015 Development Goals [Col. 315WH] Pakistan [Col. 338WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 59WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 713W] [see index inside back page]