Vol. 705 Wednesday No. 161 19 November 2008

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Prisons: Drugs Prisoners: Indeterminate Sentences Higher Education: Student Funding National Probation Service: Budget European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (2006 International Tropical Timber Agreement) Order 2008 International Organization for Migration (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2008 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2008 Youth Justice Board for England and Wales (Amendment) Order 2008 Legal Services Act 2007 (Functions of a Designated Regulator) Order 2008 Approved Pensions Bill Third Reading Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL] Commons Amendments Emergency Services Question for Short Debate Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

£3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/index/081119.html

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £3·50 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £525 WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords £6 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440; Lords £255 Index—Single copies: Commons, £6·80—published every three weeks Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS CUMULATIVE INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted.

THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN, compiled by the House of Commons, gives details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscription: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage.

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2008, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 1129 Prisons: Drugs[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Prisons: Drugs 1130

Lord Bach: My Lords, we are not trying to hide House of Lords anything. The amount of money that the Government have spent on drug treatment in prison—ranging from Wednesday, 19 November 2008. £7 million when we took office to £92 million now, a 12-fold increase—should make the noble Lord consider, The House met at three o’clock: the LORD first, whether his Government did enough in this field SPEAKER on the Woolsack. and, secondly, whether what he suggests is very sensible. When people go into prison they are of course tested Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter. for drugs. A large amount of money, and the time and effort of very dedicated people, is spent trying to wean Prisons: Drugs them off drugs in various ways. You cannot be sure when they leave prison—I think that this is the question which the noble Lord asked last time—whether they The Lord Bishop of Liverpool asked Her Majesty’s have finally been taken off drugs. You cannot be sure Government: until they have been in the community for some time. Further to the answer by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath on 10 June (HL Deb, cols. 473-75), what Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, will the discussions they have had with the British Medical Government meet the minimum staffing needs for Association about drug dependency in prisons. their Titan prison programme of two whole-time equivalent general practitioners plus community The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry psychiatric nurses, given the complex diverse health of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, since late 2002, and other needs of the population that will be in those officials in the Prison Service (pre-2005), the National prisons and the multiple opportunities that the Titan Offender Management Service and the Department of prisons will pose for illicit drug sharing? Health have chaired regular meetings with the British Medical Association to discuss the implementation of prison doctors’ and pharmacists’ working party reports. Lord Bach: My Lords, I pay tribute to the staff that These meetings have allowed discussion on a broad the noble Baroness mentions and can answer her range of subjects including the management of substance question in the affirmative. misuse. I myself will be speaking at the BMA’s prison health conference on 1 December. Lord Avebury: My Lords—

The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: My Lords, I thank Baroness Corston: My Lords— the Minister for that encouraging reply. I also welcome the fact that, despite the budget cuts to the Prison The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Service, the Government will be trebling the amount Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food of money spent on drug programmes in the next three and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My years. However, can he update the House on the Lords, why do we not let my noble friend go first and progress of the integrated drug treatment system, which then the noble Lord? is an absolutely integral intervention in dealing with drug abuse in prisons? Baroness Corston: My Lords, would the Minister be Lord Bach: My Lords, I pay tribute to the right surprised to know that during the course of my review reverend Prelate; since he became Bishop for prisons of women in prisons I came across almost universal last year he has become a powerful advocate, both inside appreciation of the fact that drug detoxification treatment this House and outside it, for more and better drug in women’s prisons has improved so dramatically under treatment in prisons and elsewhere. The integrated this Government from what was previously a pretty drug treatment scheme, as he knows, draws together poor programme? Indeed, this treatment allows some drug treatment systems which have hitherto been women coming out of prison to remain drug-free. The commissioned and delivered quite separately, involving tragedy, of course, is that so many women prisoners the Department of Health, the Ministry of Justice and are drug-dependent, but at least they get good several regional and local organisations. So far in detoxification now. 2008-09 the scheme has been rolled out in 91 prisons. It is in its second year and certainly has increased Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble funding this year. It has already been shown that it will friend. What she says is true: there has, thankfully, bring considerable improvements to the quality of been some improvement; but that there is still a huge prison treatment, allowing treatment to be better targeted problem with men and women prisoners, and with at individuals’ needs. young persons in prison, is clear. Too many people go into prison with a huge drug problem and too many Lord Henley: My Lords, the last time this subject still come out with one as well. This is a complicated was discussed the noble Lord’s predecessor assured and difficult issue, but the Government are doing their the House that inmates were tested for drug use when very best to deal with it. The problem was here before they went into prison but not when they came out. this Government and it will be here after this Government. Why are the Government continuing to try to hide the If the party opposite ever regains power, it will have to increase in drug use in prison by refusing to test deal with this problem, so its members should be quite prisoners when they come out? careful what they ask. 1131 Prisons: Drugs[LORDS] Prisoners: Indeterminate Sentences 1132

Lord Avebury: My Lords, I welcome the Government’s Prisoners: Indeterminate Sentences acceptance of all 10 major recommendations of the Blakey review as well as their suggestions on good 3.15 pm practice regarding different methods of entry of drugs into prisons, but why have they decided to postpone Baroness Linklater of Butterstone asked Her Majesty’s the introduction of the BOSS chair for non-invasive Government: searching of body orifices for drugs and mobile phones? What is their response to the report of the Chief Have they done a comparative study of the effectiveness Inspector of Prisons, The Indeterminate Sentence of the BOSS chair as compared with passive drugs for Public Protection: A Thematic Review. searches by dogs? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Lord Bach: My Lords, I am afraid that I am not in a of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, we welcome the position to answer the noble Lord’s fairly specific thematic review, although we note that the fieldwork question but I will write to him. for the report was undertaken before a number of important initiatives were introduced that have significantly Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords— improved the management of prisoners serving an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment for public Baroness Coussins: My Lords— protection. We believe that many of the criticisms contained in the report have been addressed, but there Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I think it is are some outstanding issues of importance in relation the turn of the Cross Benches. to parole, risk assessment and access to interventions, on which we continue to work. Baroness Coussins: My Lords, what progress has been made with the various initiatives for prisoners Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, I with alcohol dependency problems, as flagged up in thank the Minister for that reply and for his recognition the review of the national alcohol strategy in June 2007? of the trenchant criticisms made by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons of IPPs. Given that the legislation Lord Bach: My Lords, we know that many prisoners introduced earlier this year to raise the minimum tariff have alcohol as well as drug problems. We have made for people on IPPs to two years is not retrospective, it a priority to tackle the harms caused to the public by are the Government prepared to review the sentences acquisitive crime that is committed to fund drug and of those thousands of prisoners who were already on alcohol misuse. Consequently, funding for addressing IPPs, in particular the 800 or so who had already gone drug misuse has grown at a greater pace than that for beyond their tariff? Many of those prisoners have alcohol misuse. The needs of prisoners with an alcohol been unable to complete the required courses designed problem are important. As the noble Baroness will to prove that they are safe to be released because those know, the alcohol strategy for prisoners was introduced courses are simply not available, creating a situation four years ago. It provides a framework for addressing that the Court of Appeal has found to be unlawful. prisoners’alcohol-related problems and balances treatment and support with supply reduction, but I have to say Lord Bach: My Lords, some outstanding cases are that we have a long way to go. to be heard very shortly and I do not want to comment on them. We do not intend retrospectively to change Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords— the sentence, because that would be wrong, but we accept that there are problems in exactly the field that the noble Baroness suggested. Among the changes Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords— that we have made, including that to the law, we have undertaken the complete redesign of the processes Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, let us hear and procedures for assessing and managing such prisoners. from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. The noble Baroness will understand that the resultant changes run concurrently with the rollout of phase III Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, would the of offender management. That means that it will be Minister be kind enough to answer the question that easier for these prisoners to gain access to courses and my noble friend Lord Henley asked? Why do the other work to address their offending. We also need to Government not test people on leaving prison so that do something about the parole position. they can see the effects of prison on people’s drug-taking habits? Lord Elton: My Lords, should there not be a moratorium on these sentences until all the disquiet Lord Bach: My Lords, getting people off drugs is expressed has been addressed? not something that happens just in prison. It happens in prison, but it continues when they are in the community. Lord Bach: My Lords, we do not think so. The prime task of any Government is to protect the public. Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords— We need to have that in mind at all times. It is important to learn lessons from the past and to make sure that Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, we are now this system works better in the interests both of the in the ninth minute and we ought to move on. public and of those who are sentenced. 1133 Prisoners: Indeterminate Sentences[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Higher Education: Student Funding 1134

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, has the Minister Lord Bach: My Lords, I am not in a position to say read the disturbing report by the Sainsbury Centre for whether that is the policy that we will adopt as a Mental Health, In the Dark, which describes the serious consequence of the report, but I shall certainly take amount of mental disorder among prisoners awarded back that idea and write to the noble Baroness with IPPs and the implications for increased mental health our response. disorder on prisoners so sentenced? What action are the Government taking to improve and increase the amount of mental health treatment available to prisoners Lord Avebury: My Lords— on this sentence? The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Lord Bach: My Lords, it is clear that many of those Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food who receive this sentence have mental health problems. and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My The changes that we are making to the way in which Lords, we are in the 16th minute, so perhaps we could the sentence is carried out will undoubtedly include an move on. element of looking after those with mental health problems and making sure that such problems, as part of the way in which we consider the risk involved in a Higher Education: Student Funding prisoner’s release and its timing, are seen to be of great importance. 3.22 pm The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, will the Baroness Perry of Southwark asked Her Majesty’s Minister say what is being done to ensure that clear Government: information about the operation of IPP sentences is Whether they plan to change the funding given both to prisoners and to their families? Will he arrangements for students pursuing a course in also indicate what support is given to interventions higher education which is lower than or equivalent that are aimed at strengthening family relationships? to their existing qualification. That was touched on in the thematic report and can be important in helping prisoners to address their offending behaviour. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (Lord Lord Bach: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate Young of Norwood Green): My Lords, the funding makes an important point. It may well be that sometimes arrangements incentivise institutions to recruit more prisoners do not understand exactly what they have of the millions of adults without a higher education been sentenced to. Having read the report, I can see qualification. The ELQ policy unlocks talent and widens case histories in which that has occurred. More effort participation. While the details might be fine-tuned must be made to ensure that what he suggests happens. over time, if we are convinced by new evidence that It is also essential that courses of varying kinds, under changes are needed, the principle behind the policy the generic title of dealing with offences, are available that first-time students should come first is the right to these prisoners better than they have been in the one. past. Among the courses will be those assisting them in their relationships afterwards. Baroness Perry of Southwark: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very disappointing reply. At a Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, the time of very high unemployment, when many of the Minister will be aware of the disproportionate number people now being made unemployed are professionally of female IPP prisoners suffering from mental health qualified or graduates, it will be vital for them to be problems. The report flagged up something like 75 per able to retrain in new skills. Universities are being cent of the sample. Have adequate measures been put discouraged, not encouraged, with that particular group, in place since then to address these needs, particularly who are very important in their contribution to the formal in-reach programmes on the estate? economy. Is it not time that the Government rethought this policy? Lord Bach: I note that the report suggests that a large number of the women prisoners under these Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, we are sentences—it should be said that 97 per cent of the putting in place other measures to help people who total are men and 3 per cent are women—have have been made redundant, including special funds for considerable mental health problems. That is one matter retraining and reskilling. I return to the original point, that we are looking at in response to the report. however: this policy is about social mobility, fairness and increasing higher-level skills in the workforce to Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, it was of internationally competitive standards. We still believe interest that on the DPP side for the younger generation that our policy is right. We are not taking away from there was a recommendation that these young offenders the point on whether we need to review it. There are a should be kept in a separate establishment. Is it the number of exemptions to the policy, such as foundation Government’s intention to follow that pattern? Would degrees, employer co-funded courses and strategically they like then to apply the same Corston-like approach important subjects such as medicine and stem science. to women in this position? We are going to review that exemptions list in December. 1135 Higher Education: Student Funding[LORDS] National Probation Service: Budget 1136

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, is the promised, will the Government confirm that the review Minister aware that all those exemptions are currently will be comprehensive and that it will take into account subject to an annual review, which creates very considerable the very different effects on different institutions, uncertainty and problems for the universities concerned? particularly the impact on different types of provision, Could not the Government consider giving them the given, as other noble Lords have mentioned, the downturn three-year guarantee that they get for general funding in the economy? Will he assure me that all institutions, in universities? however affected, will be consulted during the review? Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, in September 2007 HEFCE was asked to redistribute Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I can £100 million by 2010-11 to provide 20,000 full-time certainly assure my noble friend that all institutions equivalent extra opportunities for newcomers to higher will be consulted. We have taken some special steps for education. It is a phased change—£25 million in 2008-09 specialist institutions. Safety net funding on the Open and £60 million in 2009-10. University’s budget was increased by £4 million and on Birkbeck College’s by £5 million. Universities generally Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, with the can recoup their money by recruiting more first-time economic problems we face and the prospect of an students. increasing number of people becoming unemployed, should not the Government’s focus be on the poor and people on low wages who are being made unemployed National Probation Service: Budget or who are likely to be made unemployed? What additional work is being prepared to try to assist those 3.29 pm people? Lord Ramsbotham asked Her Majesty’s Government: Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, certainly Whether they propose to reduce the budget of that is the focus of our attention. I give the House the Probation Service. some further figures. There is a significant demand for higher education and something like 100,000 applicants The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry fail to get a place every year. Twenty million people, of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, the Ministry of 70 per cent of the workforce, have no first degree, Justice is seeking efficiency savings over the next three compared to only 60 per cent in USA and Japan. Our years as set out in the department’s annual report. student finance funding is focused on those most in Budgets have not yet been fixed but, as is the case need. Something like 40 per cent of students in the across government, the Probation Service will need to lower income group will receive a full grant. We believe make efficiency savings of about 2.5 per cent in the that we have got the focus of our policy right. next financial year. This will involve difficult decisions The Lord Bishop of Lincoln: My Lords, I declare an but the NOMS agency is working to determine how interest in that theological education is one of the the saving can be achieved in ways that protect front-line areas likely to be most affected by these funding services. The aim is to reduce overheads, remove changes. I am grateful for the opportunity to express administration and drive improvement in underperforming gratitude to HEFCE and the Government for the way or expensive services. they have worked with us to try to ensure that the unintended consequences of the changed financial Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I thank the Minister arrangements do not impact disproportionately on for that somewhat disappointing and disarming reply. those training for the ministry. It would be helpful if As we all know, there is not only overcrowding in the Minister could reinforce his commitment that prisons but a large increase in the number of prisoners foundation degrees will continue to attract HEFCE and offenders requiring supervision in the community. funding for those who already have a degree. As the If we are to reduce the use of imprisonment, we also noble Baroness said, at a time when social capital is all need to have confidence in the community sentencing the more important, I do not see, unless the Minister process. I recently saw an organisation diagram for the can help and explain, how these proposals will help to National Offender Management Service but I looked get back into work in mid-career those who already in vain, first, for the National Probation Service and, have a degree but need to be retrained and reskilled to secondly, for the director of the service. In addition to degree level. managing offenders, you have to manage the staff of these services. Can the Minister tell the House who is Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I can the professional appointed to be responsible for the certainly give the right reverend Prelate an assurance Probation Service in the administration of probation on foundation degrees. We regard them as an important services in this country? route to higher education. Certainly, I do not see them at risk in any review. Again, I think we are doing the right thing in focusing on people going for first-time Lord Bach: My Lords, the Secretary of State, of degrees. A separate amount of money has been allocated course, has a statutory duty to ensure that probation to help people who are made redundant in the current services are carried out. Although I understand the circumstances to retrain and reskill. noble Lord’s disappointment, I hope I have just clearly expressed that the changes which must take place have Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, I declare to address unexplained variations in cost and performance my interest as chief executive of Universities UK. between similar services provided elsewhere. Some Given that a thorough review of policy in 2010 is probation boards do much better than others with the 1137 National Probation Service: Budget[19 NOVEMBER 2008] European Communities Order 2008 1138 same resources, but that is true of organisations across Lord Dubs: My Lords, of course it is right that the the board. What matters is that any changes that have Government should seek to make efficiency savings to take place—and they have been much exaggerated—aim across all expenditure. Can my noble friend provide an first to reduce overheads and secondly to simplify assurance that the efficiency savings demanded of the processes so that scarce resources can be targeted Probation Service will be no greater than those demanded effectively at front-line work with offenders. of the Prison Service?

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, given Lord Bach: My Lords, I cannot give my noble the enormous pressure that the Probation Service is friend an assurance on the exact amounts because we already under in coping with its existing workload, do not know exactly what the figures will be. However, can the Minister explain how the Government will as I said in my first Answer, we are seeking efficiency support the service when it must deal with the explosion savings over the next three years, as set out in the of prisoners on IPPs, who will be subject to licensed annual report. We want to be fair to every part of the supervision for at least 10 years and possibly for life? Ministry of Justice.

Lord Bach: My Lords, we are not going to attack Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, does the noble the front-line work that the Probation Service does so Lord agree that an across-the-board, unimaginative brilliantly across the country. There are administrative reduction of one-fortieth could be extremely counter- changes and savings that can be made. As I have said productive and could, indeed, foreclose the prospect before, in this organisation as in others, benchmarking of a non-custodial disposal in many appropriate cases, and evidence-gathering have shown great variations in leading to a critical situation in relation to prison the cost and performance of similar services being overcrowding? delivered in similar probation areas. This will not be easy but it has to be done. Lord Bach: My Lords, I agree absolutely with the Lord Henley: My Lords, in the report referred to by noble Lord. If it were just done across the board and the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, in her earlier without any imagination at all, it would be an absurd Question—a report that was co-written by the Chief thing to do. We have to concentrate on where savings Inspector of Probation—there was, as the Minister can be made—and savings can be made in almost will remember, a general request for the Secretary of every organisation—while ensuring that we focus on State to ensure an increased allocation of resources. dealing with offenders who have been in prison or The Minister is now talking about a saving of some been given community sentences. As the noble Lord 2.5 per cent. How will he bring those two factors will know, in February this year we announced a together? further investment, in addition to the investment that I mentioned, of £13.9 million over the next three years Lord Bach: My Lords, we would very much like to to fund six new intensive alternatives to custody projects. be able to spend more on a whole range of issues but, I hope that that is something that the House will being a responsible Government, we know something support. that the other side seems to have forgotten—you can only spend within your means. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, when we fought through the Offender Management Bill last year the Noble Lords: Oh! Government made it clear that they wanted offender management to be a seamless exercise both in prison Lord Bach: My Lords, I am afraid that the business and out of prison, which would require more resources of government is hard, and it is about priorities. What for those out of prison. Have the Government now we will not sacrifice is the front-line work being effectively abandoned that objective? done with offenders. I remind the noble Lord, Lord Henley, that since 1997, staffing numbers in the Probation Lord Bach: No, my Lords, we certainly have not. Service have increased by over 7,000 and the probation Those who are out of prison on community sentences resource budget has increased by nearly 70 per cent in are the front-line people we are determined to ensure real terms. Only in March of this year my right honourable do not suffer as a result of any cuts which we have to friend the Secretary of State committed an additional make. We will concentrate on them as it is essential to £40 million to ensure that magistrates had tough go on helping them. The noble Lord heard me mention community sentences at their disposal, and an additional figures a few minutes ago. The amount of money that £17 million was found for the Probation Service for the Government have put in over a number of years, this year. So I do not think that we will take lessons on and the number of extra probation officers, is a good this subject from the noble Lord. record. Lord Dubs: My Lords— European Communities (Definition of Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords— Treaties) (2006 International Tropical The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Timber Agreement) Order 2008 Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My 3.37 pm Lords, can we let my noble friend go first, and then the Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I beg to move the noble Lord? Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. 1139 European Communities Order 2008[LORDS] Pensions Bill 1140

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] out by the Procedure Committee. This is Amendment Moved, That the draft order laid before the House No. 17 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Judd on 23 October be approved. 30th Report from the Joint and Lord Joffe. Committee on Statutory Instruments, Considered in On the basis of the Public Bill Office’s advice, the Grand Committee on 17 November.—(Lord Tunnicliffe.) usual channels have agreed to recommend to the House On Question, Motion agreed to. that the amendment should not be moved. As ever, this is ultimately a matter for the House as a whole to decide. International Organization for Migration (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2008 Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, that is helpful, but it would help us if the noble Baroness were to explain the reason for that. Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the subject Wales) Order 2008 of the amendment has already been dealt with on the Floor of the House twice and, therefore, it is not appropriate for it to be debated again today. Bill read a third time. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, I beg to move the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Moved, That the draft orders laid before the House Luton) moved Amendment No. 1: on 23 and 29 October be approved. 30th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Considered 1: Clause 8, page 6, line 1, at end insert “or in respect” in Grand Committee on 17 November.—(Lord Bach.) The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall speak also On Question, Motions agreed to. to Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 6 to 9, 20, 24 to 29 and 32. We wish to ensure that the Bill is as clear and as error-free as possible before we send it back to the Youth Justice Board for England and Commons. Therefore, as is normal at this stage, Wales (Amendment) Order 2008 parliamentary draftsmen have suggested a number of minor and technical amendments designed to correct inconsistencies and improve drafting. I will take each Legal Services Act 2007 (Functions of a of the amendments in turn. Designated Regulator) Order 2008 On Amendment No. 1, if a jobholder opts out of pension saving under Clause 8, the jobholder and the employer get their contributions refunded. As drafted, Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, I beg to move the wording suggests that the regulations on refunds the two Motions standing in my name on the Order made under Clause 8(2)(b) should deal only with Paper. “jobholder” contributions. The amendment is intended Moved, That the draft orders laid before the House to make clear that the clause covers employer and on 22 October be approved. 29th Report from the Joint employee contributions and brings the drafting into Committee on Statutory Instruments, Considered in Grand line with other clauses that refer to contributions. Committee on 17 November.—(Lord Patel of Bradford.) Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 are designed to clarify On Question, Motions agreed to. the drafting of the clause that introduces the test scheme standard for defined benefit schemes. The amendments confirm that the terms “such persons” Pensions Bill and “J” refer to scheme members. On Amendment No. 6, Clause 37(3) allows the 3.38 pm Secretary of State to make regulations about the way The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall in which the regulator can estimate the amount of of Blaisdon): My Lords, I have it in command from contributions that an employer has failed to pay. Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Amendment No. 6 is intended to make clear that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of regulations can be made covering how the regulator the Pensions Bill, has consented to place her Prerogative can estimate contributions paid by the employer on and Interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at behalf of the worker, as well as contributions paid on the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill. the employer’s account in respect of that worker. The Before the House begins Third Reading on the amendment will also bring parity with Clause 38(2), Pensions Bill, it may be helpful for me to say a few where the same terms are used. words about the Third Reading amendments. In line On Amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9, Clause 60 currently with the guidance recommended by the Procedure gives the regulator power to inspect employers’ premises Committee and agreed by the House, the Public Bill where it has reason to believe that documents relevant Office has advised the usual channels that one amendment to the administration of a qualifying scheme are being on the Marshalled List for Third Reading today falls kept. However, an employer’s scheme would not be a outside the guidance given in the Companion and set qualifying scheme in relation to workers without qualifying 1141 Pensions Bill[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Pensions Bill 1142 earnings under Clause 9. It is also possible that an Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 4: employer might declare his pension scheme to be a 4: After Clause 27, insert the following new Clause— qualifying scheme when, in fact, it does not satisfy the “Sections 20, 24 and 26: certification that quality requirement requirements as set out in Clause 16. Amendments is satisfied Nos. 7, 8 and 9 replace the reference to a “qualifying (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that, scheme” with a reference to a, subject to provision within subsection (6)(f), a scheme to which “pension scheme that is relevant to the discharge of those duties”, this section applies is to be taken to satisfy the relevant quality requirement in relation to any jobholder of an employer if a of the employer, and will therefore ensure that the certificate given in accordance with the regulations is in force in regulator’s powers of inspection would apply in all relation to the employer. relevant circumstances. (2) The certificate must state that, in relation to the jobholders Amendment No. 20 amends the interpretation clause of the employer who are active members of the scheme, the scheme is in the opinion of the person giving the certificate able to for Part 1 to make clear that people without qualifying satisfy the relevant quality requirement throughout the certification earnings who opt into a workplace personal pension period. under Clause 9 are active members of their scheme, (3) This section applies to— just as jobholders who opt in are active members. (a) a money purchase scheme to which section 20 applies; I shall now speak to Amendments Nos. 24 to 29 and (b) a personal pension scheme to which section 26 applies; 32. The amendments to Clauses 132 and 133 clarify (c) a hybrid scheme, to the extent that requirements within two things. First, any conditions associated with the section 24(1)(a) apply. purchase of additional voluntary class 3 national insurance (4) The “relevant quality requirement”— contributions under Clause 132 must be prescribed in regulations by the Treasury. Secondly, the clause requires (a) for a scheme within subsection (3)(a), means the quality requirement under section 20; that an eligible person must have 20 qualifying years or 20 full years of home responsibilities protection in (b) for a scheme within subsection (3)(b), means the quality order to buy the additional contributions. This amendment requirement under section 26; clarifies that we are referring to a qualifying year for (c) for a scheme within paragraph (c) of subsection (3), the purposes of entitlement to certain social security means the requirements mentioned in that paragraph. benefits. (5) Regulations may make further provision in relation to certification under this section. The amendment to Clause 146 clarifies that an (6) Regulations may in particular make provision— order is not required for the commencement of the (a) as to the period for which a certificate is in force (the extension to the rules on the purchase of voluntary “certification period”); class 3 national insurance contributions. The right to (b) as to the persons by whom a certificate may be given; buy additional years for eligible people will take effect automatically on 6 April 2009, and this is specified in (c) as to procedures in connection with certification or the Bill at Clause 146(4). where a certificate has been given; (d) requiring persons to have regard to guidance issued by I hope that noble Lords will agree that these the Secretary of State; amendments are straightforward but necessary to ensure (e) requiring an employer to calculate the amount of that the Bill leaves this House in the best state possible. contributions that a scheme, and any section 26 I beg to move. agreements, required to be paid by or in respect of any jobholder in the certification period; 3.45 pm (f) as to cases where the requirements of a scheme, and any section 26 agreements, as to payment of contributions Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, silence breeds consent. by or in respect of jobholders of an employer did not satisfy prescribed conditions. (7) Provision within subsection (6)(f) includes in particular Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, we are provision for a scheme not to be treated by virtue of regulations generally happier with these amendments today. The under this section as having satisfied the relevant quality requirement way in which the Minister and the department have unless prescribed steps are taken (which may include the making of prescribed payments). tidied up and brought forward the amendments is a (8) In subsection (6) “section 26 agreements”means the agreement credit to them. We had vigorous discussions at earlier required, in the case of a scheme within subsection (3)(b), by stages of the Bill, and on these amendments today the section 26(4) and any agreement required, in the case of such a noble Lord has generally shown himself to be a listening scheme, by section 26(6). Minister, which is not something that I would say (9) The Secretary of State may by order repeal this section.” about every Minister in this Government. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall speak also On Question, amendment agreed to. to the other government amendments in this group. I now return to qualifying earnings, which we discussed Clause 22 [Test scheme standard]: in earlier debates. On Report, we amended the Bill to confirm that employers may assess whether their arrangements meet the new quality standard over the Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendments Nos. 2 course of a year and not just pay period by pay period. and 3: Following further detailed discussions with 2: Clause 22, page 11, line 12, leave out “such persons” and stakeholders, Amendments Nos. 4, 30 and 31 now go insert “them” one step further. They will enable employers or a 3: Clause 22, page 11, line 14, at end insert “J and” designated person connected to them to certify that On Question, amendments agreed to. their scheme meets the forthcoming quality standard. 1143 Pensions Bill[LORDS] Pensions Bill 1144

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] existing pension scheme to meet the formula in the Bill Our intention throughout the passage of the Bill or, more plausibly, would result in employers just has been to make it as easy as possible for employers saying that they are not prepared to continue with who offer generous pension contributions today to their own scheme and defaulting to personal accounts. continue to do so under the employer duty. The trick Either way, it would result in less pension saving. At has been to find a way to achieve this without opening present, employers contribute more than 6 per cent to up the unacceptable risk that some individuals might defined contribution schemes, which compares with routinely or materially save at levels below the minimum the Bill’s 3 per cent. Admittedly, the bases are different, standard. but I would guess that on average the difference is I believe that the certification procedure provided slightly more than 3 per cent, which, over a working for in the amendments strikes the appropriate balance. lifetime, is a lot in pension provision. Certification will be based on three principles, which I My probing amendment deletes subsection (2) of agreed last month with the employer and industry the new clause. At the heart of whether this new clause stakeholder group. will do the trick is whether the regulations made under The first is that, if employers or a connected person it will allow the calculations to be made at the level of are confident that each worker in their scheme is on the whole active membership of the scheme or whether course to receive the new minimum level of pension they will directly, or indirectly, force the calculations saving, they will be able to certify that their arrangements to be made at the level of the individual. The question meet the new quality standard. The second principle posed by my amendment is whether subsection (2) deals with cases where a member’s contributions allows the certificate to be given at the level of the unexpectedly fall short of the minimum during the active member jobholders as a whole. I am aware that certified period. In such cases, employers will not be the Government changed the drafting of subsection (2) required to make retrospective reconciliation payments at a late stage before tabling an order to clarify its unless the detriment to an individual exceeds certain meaning, but I believe that the version in Amendment minimum levels. The third principle is that the minimum No. 4 can still be read either way. My request to the levels for reconciliation will be set in such a way as to Minister is to clarify the Government’s intention of protect individuals from significant, systematic or what subsection (2) is intended to mean in practice. persistent detriment. The Minister will also be aware that the provisions Certification on the basis of these principles should in subsection (6)(e) and (f) and subsection (7) cause provide greater certainty to employers and some key some concern because those provisions would allow administrative easements around reconciliation payments, the Government to produce regulations which were while at the same time protecting the savings outcomes onerous in both administrative and financial terms. I for individuals that are fundamental to the success of have to put the Government on notice that if they the reforms. produce regulations which are onerous in administrative I shall now give way to the noble Baroness, Lady and financial terms, the likely outcome will be the Noakes, who has tabled an amendment to Amendment levelling down, which this clause is intended to avoid. No. 4, and I shall have an opportunity to respond to In particular, the tolerance levels of employers for that. I beg to move. sticking with their own schemes may well be tested if, by virtue of subsection (7), significant payments are Baroness Noakes moved, as an amendment to required by the regulations. Amendment No. 4, Amendment No. 5: The Bill does not require the Government to draft 5: After Clause 27, line 10, leave out subsection (2) the regulations in a way that results in levelling down, The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we congratulate but the danger is there and it is entirely in the Government’s the Government on bringing forward their amendment hands. The groups with which we have discussed these to the qualifying earnings test. This is one of the issues issues are keen to work closely with the Government that have been with us throughout our consideration on the content of the detailed regulations so that they of the Bill, and at times I wondered whether we would achieve the aim, which I think is shared by all parties, ever get to this stage. of keeping private provision going. I hope that the We have made it clear from the outset—not least to Government will work closely and constructively with the organisations that have provided briefing to us—that those groups. I would be grateful for the Minister’s the best outcome would be a government amendment. comments on that. A victory in the Division Lobby may have given us a Lastly, I must mention subsection (9) which seems passing thrill in this House but a solution embraced by to be a rather unnecessary act of aggression. Subsection (9) the Government gives hope for auto-enrolment contains the unusual power for the Secretary of State arrangements which will work well in practice. to repeal the whole section and, with it, the hope that Amendment No. 4 offers the possibility that existing levelling down might be avoided. That is unorthodox private sector provision may be preserved and not drafting. Most Bills are not drafted with such provisions. levelled down. If Amendment No. 4 avoids levelling Admittedly, this Bill contains another example in down by existing employers, it would, in turn, help to Clause 69. The Minister never satisfactorily explained maintain a body of pension provision which was that one, but I invite him to explain why it is appropriate above the minimum and, if that were the case, it would for this new clause. I even harbour a faint hope that set a market level which may encourage new employers the Minister will say that subsection (9) is a big mistake in the market to offer more than the minimum. What and that, if we pass this amendment today, as I hope is at stake is potentially important. As we know, we shall, the Government will amend it in another levelling down could take the form of rewriting an place. I beg to move. 1145 Pensions Bill[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Pensions Bill 1146

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, inevitably that the process will include scope for discretion on the we cannot be sure how this will work in practice, but it part of the employer or connected person; for example, seems to us on these Benches a sensible compromise, in relation to the extent of the analysis he must undertake following the discussions which we had on Report. As before signing a certificate. In that way, employers or the Pensions Policy Institute, in its characteristically connected persons who are confident of the quality of helpful and thorough note, said, there has to be a the scheme could elect not to conduct fully individualised trade-off. A trade-off has to be made between a lower checks. It will depend on the circumstances of the burden on employers with a small minority of individuals individual scheme and in part on the level of contributions receiving less than the minimum but the majority of that are paid under the existing scheme and on the individuals receiving the minimum and higher, and number of employees whose pay is comprised of ensuring that every individual receives at least the components that are not covered by the existing scheme minimum but, as we know, with a potentially much arrangements and perhaps on how sensitive outturn higher administrative burden on employers. From the pay is to the varying business levels that are undertaken. discussions I have had—I particularly pay tribute to Although there will probably be a degree of prescription Tim Breedon and his colleagues at Legal & General, in the regulations, it will be important for employers to who took me through it very carefully and discussed have discretion about the extent of the work they need how their discussions with the ministry were going—I to do to gain the assurance that they believe is necessary am satisfied that this is a sensible compromise. The to go through that certification process. I hope that on right trade-off has been made, and we look forward to that basis the noble Baroness will feel that she need seeing how it works in practice. not press her amendment. There is still some detail to be worked out. We want continued engagement with Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful stakeholders. It has been important in taking us from to both noble Lords for their support for the thrust of whereweweretowhereweare. this amendment. I am particularly grateful to the In relation to subsection (9) and the opportunity to noble Baroness for providing me with an opportunity repeal, it was put in place, at least in part, because we to explain the significance of subsection (2) of the believe that there is a reasonable prospect that, once government amendment, which sets out what the auto-enrolment gets under way, employers will be less certificate must state. inclined to follow this route, and it will be easier for Subsection (2) requires a certificate to state that in them down the track to establish that their schemes the opinion of the person giving the certificate the are compliant. scheme is able to meet the minimum contributions From another point of view, if, in the event, the standard for all its active members throughout the certification process is not working satisfactorily and certification period. This subsection effectively achieves is throwing up persistent undersaving by people, we in the legislation the first of the policy principles I set would not want to proceed with it, but we want to give out earlier; namely, that an employer must be confident it a fair wind and work with stakeholders to see at the point of certification that the scheme will provide whether we can complete the detail. As the noble minimum contributions for everyone participating under Lord, Lord Oakeshott, said, it is important to strike the duty. This is crucial if we are to ensure that the right balance. This is part of the arrangement that certification may be used by employers with good we are putting in place to avoid levelling down, which schemes only. We do not want to leave open a risk that is crucial, especially at the current time. some individuals could be enrolled in schemes where it was clear that from the outset they would persistently 4pm save below the minimum level. I am sure we have Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister common cause on that issue. for that reply and I shall not prolong the debate. We The noble Baroness indicated—I accept that her share the same aims. From our perspective, some of amendment is a probing amendment—some concern the language in the subsection could be used in a way that subsection (2) could drive employers to undertake that does not achieve the right result; that is the point individualised checks of their membership in the same that I was trying to make. Much will depend on how way as they would under the existing test. Let me the Government implement this in practice in whether reassure her on this matter. Certification enables an they achieve the agreed outcome, which is to maintain employer to look at its scheme once a year and, private provision at a higher level than the basic required provided it is confident that it meets the minimum under the Bill. As we share that aim, we will just have standard at that point, to proceed for the coming year to see how things turn out, but I just record that if the in the knowledge that it will remain compliant even if Government do not implement it with sensitivity, levelling individuals go on to experience minor or sporadic down will follow. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. shortfalls. In that sense, certification reduces the need Amendment No. 5, as an amendment to Amendment for an employer to consider whether to future-proof No. 4, by leave, withdrawn. an existing scheme in case of unexpected changes to On Question, Amendment No. 4 agreed to. an individual’s pay. While the standard that must be met at the start of Clause 37 [Calculation and payment of contributions]: each certification period relates to all members, we envisage the process in part being a matter for regulations. Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 6: I accept that some of the important detail is yet to 6: Clause 37, page 18, line 44, after “pay” insert “on come through in those regulations, particularly what behalf or” de minimis will mean in this context. We anticipate On Question, amendment agreed to. 1147 Pensions Bill[LORDS] Pensions Bill 1148

Clause 60 [Powers to require information and to Clause 67 [Scheme orders: general]: enter premises]: Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendments Nos. 11 to 15: Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendments Nos. 7 11: Clause 67, page 37, line 2, after “order” insert “under to 9: section 66” 7: Clause 60, page 33, line 5, leave out “qualifying scheme” 12: Clause 67, page 37, line 5, after “order” insert “under and insert “pension scheme that is relevant to the discharge of section 66” those duties” 13: Clause 67, page 37, line 7, after “order” insert “under 8: Clause 60, page 33, leave out lines 11 and 12 section 66” 9: Clause 60, page 33, line 16, leave out ““worker” or “qualifying scheme”” and insert “or “worker”” 14: Clause 67, page 37, line 9, after “order” insert “under On Question, amendments agreed to. section 66” 15: Clause 67, page 37, line 15, after “order” insert “under section 66” Clause 66 [Duty to establish a pension scheme]: On Question, amendments agreed to. Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 10: 10: Clause 66, page 36, line 24, leave out “powers conferred by Lord Tunnicliffe moved Amendment No. 16: subsection (1) are” and insert “power to make provision in 16: After Clause 72, insert the following new Clause— pursuance of subsection (1) is” “Review The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall speak also (1) The Secretary of State must appoint a person to review in to the other government amendments in the group. As relation to a scheme established under section 66— noble Lords will recall, during Committee, the noble (a) the effect of provision made under section 69 (maximum Baroness, Lady Noakes, successfully moved an amount of contributions), amendment that resulted in a duty on the Secretary of (b) the effect of any restrictions on rights to transfer into the State to set up the scheme, rather than providing a scheme or transfer out to another pension scheme, and power to do so. There was a clear feeling in the (c) such other matters as the Secretary of State may direct. Committee that there should be no ambiguity in the (2) The appointment under subsection (1) must be made on or drafting. The need for clarity on such a crucial issue is after the later of— understandable, which is why we will not seek to (a) 1 January 2017; overturn that amendment. (b) the end of five years beginning with the first day on However, I want to introduce these amendments which contributions are paid to the scheme by or in to ensure that we do not inadvertently restrict the respect of members. Government’s ability to make future changes to the scheme (3) The person appointed under subsection (1) must— order. As I explained during Committee, the details of (a) prepare a report of the review, and the scheme will be set out in the scheme order and it (b) send a copy of the report to the Secretary of State. may be either desirable or necessary at some time in (4) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a copy future—we are potentially looking at a long time of the report. here—to amend the scheme order. (5) The Secretary of State may pay to the person appointed In accordance with the provisions of the Interpretation under subsection (1) such remuneration and expenses as the Act 1978—much maligned last time that I used that Secretary of State may determine.” expression—we would have been able to use the power The noble Lord said: My Lords, as noble Lords will in the clause as drafted to do so. These technical be aware, we are committed to a review of all aspects amendments to Clauses 66 and 67 will ensure that the of the personal account scheme in 2017. When we duty remains without unintentionally harming the debated this issue on Report, my noble friend agreed objectives or technical workings of the Bill. to consider putting that commitment in the Bill. Following Amendment No. 10 amends Clause 66(8) and will this consideration, the amendment puts into the Bill a put beyond doubt that the scheme order could be requirement for the Secretary of State to commission amended under Section 14 of the Interpretation Act if an independent review of the features of the personal that proves necessary. Amendments Nos. 11 to 15 then accounts scheme that are designed to focus it on the amend each of the subsections in Clause 67. The target market; specifically, the annual contribution amendments will make clear that subsections (2) to (5) limit and the prohibition of pension fund transfers to of that clause refer to any order under Clause 66, not and from the scheme. As my noble friend explained, just an establishing order. So they would, for example, the review will consider these policies and gauge whether apply to an amending order also. they have been effective in focusing the scheme on its I hope that noble Lords will agree that, in addition target market without detriment either to the scheme to the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady or to its members. Noakes, in Committee, these amendments will provide We also debated whether the scope of the 2017 absolute clarity about the duty to establish a scheme. I review should be extended to include other issues. My beg to move. noble friend Lady Hollis, for example, suggested that it should consider voluntary contributions on earnings below the contributions bands. We agree that it might Baroness Noakes: My Lords, taking it on trust that be right to include other issues in the review. We have the effect of the amendments is what the noble Lord therefore included in the amendment scope for a future says, we have no objection to them. Government to decide the exact remit of the review. On Question, amendment agreed to. This is not something that we can or should decide so 1149 Pensions Bill[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Pensions Bill 1150 far in advance. Other issues may arise between now Does that mean that, despite my understanding of the and 2017 that are more appropriate to include in the assurances from the Minister about the department’s review. It will be up to the Government at the time to approach to stranded pots, nothing will be done before consider what, if anything, in addition to the contribution 2017 and only then will it be reviewed; therefore, any limit and the transfers ban the review should cover. action may take until one or two years after that? We have always been clear that it is our aim to have People may find that any money they put into a a review in 2017; that is, five years after the scheme personal account between 2012 and 2017 could end up became operational. We see no reason why the scheme being a stranded pot because they cannot move it into would not become operational as planned, but the another pot that they already hold. I should like some amendment, in line with the spirit of the amendment assurances that stranded pots will be dealt with as of tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and the now and not postponed to 2017. It is an injustice. It is noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on day one of Report institutional theft of money and should not happen. allows us to ensure that there will be a gap of five years All this is on the accountability of the Secretary of between the scheme becoming operational and the State to Parliament once the report has been completed. date of the review. Will my noble friend assure me that, as regards the On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, scope of such a report, there will be either a letter to expressed interest in how we would define “operational”. which we can respond or, better still, a debate or some The amendment makes it clear that it means the first other format so that Members of your Lordships’ day on which contributions are paid to the scheme by House can add to the shopping list of issues to be or for members. This ensures that the timing of the reviewed in the report and not merely depend on such review is tied to when the scheme starts to act in its other matters as the Secretary of State may direct? I capacity to accept contributions and invest them for could conceive that the views of the Secretary of State its members. as to what should be reviewed could be at odds with Our approach, on both the scope and the timing of what many of your Lordships might wish to see reviewed. the review, is to make clear our intentions but to allow I do not want to see those issues missed because the for all eventualities. We believe that this is the right power lies exclusively with the Secretary of State to approach when developing pensions policy for the determine the report’s content. I ask my noble friend long term without the benefit of hindsight. I beg to to assure us that vehicles will be devised, of whatever move. form, for this House and, no doubt, the other place, as well as other stakeholders and players in the field of pensions, to have input on the issues of concern, to the Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I must first express person handling this report, back to the Secretary of my gratitude to Ministers for accepting that it would State and then on to Parliament. be right to put the review into a formal setting in the Bill. However, the amendment is a lot more definite Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I shall, than mine was. For one thing, the word “must” appears rather than must, speak on this amendment, which we four times in it. I have never, in all my time in your on these Benches support, as we supported with our Lordships’ House, seen any Act of Parliament, which votes the original amendment tabled by the noble this Bill will become, with the word “must” in it four Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. I also strongly support what times. the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has just said about The Government are still maintaining what my stranded pots. That has been one of the cop-outs—I noble friend and I believe is a fiction—that personal hope that I can put it that way—in this Bill. It is very accounts will start on or about 1 January 2012. I do unsatisfactory that it has not been dealt with and I not think that they will, so I was surprised to see in hope that we do not have to wait for five years or, if proposed new subsection (2) that the appointment of the crystal ball of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, the individual to conduct the review, and the review is right, even longer, before action is taken to rectify itself, this, as the noble Baroness puts it, serious injustice. “must be made on or after the later of (a) 1 January 2017”— in other words, five years after the beginning of personal Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, accounts—or at, Lord Skelmersdale, for counting the “musts”. Apparently “(b) the end of five years beginning with the first day on which we are at a watershed and parliamentary counsel has contributions are paid”. changed its general view from the word “shall” to I suggest that proposed new paragraph (b) is a lot “must”. Noble Lords here are the first to note it. I more likely than (a). However, having teased the hope that I do not have to withdraw any of these Government slightly on this, I must say that I am more words, but that is what my note says. I understand that than content with the amendment. our commitment is not to 1 January 2012 but to “during” 2012. We continue with confidence that we Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I obviously will achieve that. welcome this amendment. I, too, am puzzled at the use We have given a series of assurances during the of the word “must” rather than “shall”, which is passage of this Bill on stranded pots and other matters. conventional parliamentary counsel language, but no This amendment in no way modifies those assurances. doubt it is desirable if it adds extra emphasis. This is an enabling amendment and does not in any Subsection (1)(b) of the proposed new clause refers to, way limit the commitments we have already given. I “the effect of any restrictions on rights to transfer into the scheme am not willing to give a specific assurance about how or transfer out to another pension scheme”. we will handle the scope. That will be for 2017. But 1151 Pensions Bill[LORDS] Pensions Bill 1152

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful our record to date, and I believe any Government’s for that support. I note that the noble Baroness has record on this important issue, will inevitably and not changed her position on the universal service quite properly involve close liaison with stakeholders obligation that we believe these provisions imply, but and all groups in establishing the scope. It is inconceivable that is a debate that will doubtless continue. that there will not be a process by which the House On Question, amendment agreed to. will be able to express its views. On Question, amendment agreed to. Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 19: 19: Clause 80, page 41, line 35, leave out from first “conditions” [Amendment No. 17 not moved.] to end of line 36 and insert— 4.15 pm “(c) in the case of a loan, must be given on a condition requiring the loan to be repaid with interest at a rate Clause 80 [Finance]: approved by the Treasury. (3) Section 5 of the National Loans Act 1968 (rates of interest Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 18: on certain loans out of the National Loans Fund) has effect as 18: Clause 80, page 41, line 31, after “may” insert “, with the respects the rate of interest on a loan under this paragraph as it consent of the Treasury,” has effect as respects a rate of interest within subsection (1) of The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall also speak that section.”” to the other amendments in this group. They have On Question, amendment agreed to. similar wording and intent, but the amendments to Clause 80 apply to financial provisions for the delivery Clause 97 [Interpretation of Part]: authority while those to Schedule 1 are to provisions for the trustee corporation. Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 20: There has been considerable interest in the financial 20: Clause 97, page 50, line 9, at end insert “or (where section 9 arrangements for the personal accounts scheme during applies) a worker in relation to whom there are direct payment the passage of the Bill through the House. I recognise arrangements (within the meaning of section 111A of the Pension the legitimate concerns raised by a number of noble Schemes Act 1993 (c. 48)) between the worker and the employer;” Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, On Question, amendment agreed to. that there must be adequate protection for the taxpayer. That is the Government’s intention but I accept that Baroness Noakes moved Amendment No. 21: there is scope to make that clearer on the face of the Bill. On Report I undertook to look again at the 21: After Clause 124, insert the following new Clause— financial provisions in Clause 80 and Schedule 1, and “Review of the initial operation of sections 38A and 38B of as a result I have tabled these amendments to the the Pensions Act 2004 finance provisions in the Bill to make clear that any (1) The Secretary of State must carry out a review of the financial assistance that the Secretary of State may operation of sections 38A and 38B of the Pensions Act 2004 (c. 35) (which were inserted into that Act by paragraph 2 of make to the delivery authority or the trustee corporation Schedule 9 to this Act) during the period of 4 years beginning will be consistent with general rules on government with the day on which that paragraph fully comes into force (“the lending. In particular, the amendments specify that commencement date”). any loans must attract an interest rate consistent with (2) The Secretary of State must set out the conclusions of the the conditions that would apply under Section 5 of the review in a report and lay the report before Parliament. National Loans Act 1968; that is to say, at a minimum (3) The report must be laid before the end of the period of they must cover the Government’s cost of borrowing. 5 years beginning with the commencement date.” The amendments therefore reinforce our policy The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment commitment to delivery the scheme at nil cost to would introduce a new clause after Clause 124. I taxpayers and that the scheme should be self-financing should state at the outset that I am quietly confident over the longer term. These amendments give Parliament that the Minister will look kindly on it, not least further reassurance of the Government’s intentions because I accepted all the Government’s helpful drafting with regard to funding the personal accounts scheme. amendments. Clause 124 and the associated Schedule 9 I beg to move. introduce amendments to the Pensions Act 2004, the Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister most significant of which is the new material detriment for bringing forward these amendments, and in particular test for contribution notices in Section 38A and its for clarifying the basis on which loans should be associated due diligence defence in Section 38B. I will made, which follows in part a suggestion I made in one not go over the history of this; suffice it to say that we of my amendments on Report. The Bill still allows welcomed on Report that the Government had rethought non-commercial terms to grants to be made to either this approach, and in broad terms we supported what the delivery authority or the trustee corporation when is now in Schedule 9. that is up and running. I simply note for the record On Report, however, my noble friend Lord Lucas that we on these Benches do not accept the concept of and I raised a number of specific concerns with the a universal service obligation necessitating long-term Minister, based largely on concerns raised with us by subsidy for the personal accounts scheme, but we are organisations such as the Confederation of British grateful for these amendments. Industry, the British Venture Capital Association and several professional advisers. The Minister gave a number Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, we are of helpful replies, which was appreciated by both the happy with the amendments. House and those outside who follow our proceedings. 1153 Pensions Bill[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Pensions Bill 1154

There remain some concerns in the business community, Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank the though, about how these new provisions will work in noble Baroness for tabling the amendment and I thank practice. I shall list a few. the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for his support. I The provisions can apply to individuals. Will they shall start by saying that the Government accept the be used in that way in practice? Will directors and principle that the operation of new Sections 38A and others start to behave in a risk-averse way against that 38B should be kept under review. These are new possibility? We are promised that there will be guidance provisions and we want to ensure that they operate as to cover the concepts of likelihood and materiality, intended, which is to provide adequate protection for which are an integral part of the material detriment members and the PPF, and that they do not have test. Will that guidance in practice prove satisfactory unforeseen consequences for business. Under current and easy to apply? The statutory code of practice arrangements, these provisions will be monitored by contains a list of circumstances in which contribution the regulator and the department. The regulator will notices might be issued but does not preclude the want to keep the operation of the anti-avoidance regulator from issuing contribution notices in other measures under regular review, as they have an important circumstances. Will that happen in practice, thus role in encouraging appropriate behaviours. These powers undermining the usefulness of a code? The defence in will also be overseen and evaluated by the department Section 38B is not framed as an objective test but rests as part of the regular liaison between the department’s on the regulator’s judgment. Will it in fact protect officials and the regulator. This regular review will those whom it is intended to protect? assess and evaluate the operation of policy and legislation There is also an overarching issue in that several of alongside formal performance reviews and liaison at the concerns we aired were met by a ministerial response senior official and ministerial levels. that the regulator had to act reasonably. We need The Government recognise that stakeholders and to see what that means in practice because one man’s the Opposition have raised a number of concerns reasonableness can be another’s irrationality.We also had about the operation of these provisions. Unless the a debate about what “reasonably” actually means noble Baroness presses me to do so, I will not go back in practice. Is it reasonableness in the context of the through them, as they are on the record, but I would regulator’s own duties or is it set in a broader context? be happy to try again if she so wishes. However, Our advisers say that there is no settled case law on this, concerns have been raised about the operation of so we need to see how the regulator will in fact behave. these provisions in respect of whether there will be any In the light of all this and some other detailed unintended consequences, in particular that, while points, I felt that a review of the workings of the new deterring what we would all agree is bad practice, they sections was not an unreasonable thing to put in should not operate unreasonably to deter genuine and the Bill. A review would need to establish whether the desirable corporate activity. I appreciate that there new sections did in fact help to protect pension funds may be a desire for a commitment in the Bill for the and the PPF from the unreasonable acts of employers department to carry out a review to ensure that the in the areas set out in the code, but there is the other policy is operating as intended. Therefore, we are side of the coin in the impact that the new sections will content to agree to the noble Baroness’s amendment have on commercial life. Will, as some suggest, the seeking a formal review with a report to Parliament. new provisions stop beneficial corporate transactions This will put beyond doubt our commitment to evaluate from happening where a defined benefit scheme is the operation of these provisions. involved? Are there any unintended consequences such On the time period, two years is too short; four as exponential growth in indemnities and warranties years is a more realistic and appropriate timeframe for with associated complexity and cost? Will the volume a review. It is important to allow time for the legislation, of clearance applications be high or low? Will they be the regulator’s code of practice and its guidance to bed handled expeditiously, and will they cost a lot or in and for these to be tested in operation. A period of very little? four years will provide the regulator with an opportunity The amendment does not require it, but I hope that to properly implement the amended powers and for the DWP would consult broadly in carrying out the employers and those who advise them to become more review required by this amendment. It may be that the familiar with the regulator’s approach. A four-year fears expressed to us will prove completely unfounded, timeframe will ensure that the immediate and longer-term but it is no bad thing to search for that answer. impacts can be properly considered, based on a robust On timing, the new clause asks for the review to be and substantial body of evidence. carried out after four years, with a report available Following the introduction of the 2004 Act moral within 12 months from that. I confess that I would have hazard provisions, there was a period during which the liked a review to start sooner, but I have accepted the market adapted to the legislation. It is important to Government’s opinion that a meaningful review would note that the regulator experienced an initial high need the time-frame set out in this amendment. I look volume of clearance inquiries as the market responded forward to the Minister’s response and I beg to move. to the 2004 Act changes. This has since stabilised and there has been a decline in clearance inquiries since Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, this 2005. Similarly, there may be an initial increase in allows what seems to be a reasonable time to elapse inquiries relating to the amended powers, but we expect before the review is carried out, and when all is sweetness that this will decline over the longer term. We therefore and light in this way between the Government and the believe that a review after four years would better Official Opposition Front Bench, far be it from us to ensure that the business community has had sufficient interfere. opportunity to understand the new powers and that 1155 Pensions Bill[LORDS] Pensions Bill 1156

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] regulator’s ability to contract out its functions by we are past any initial learning curve as experienced in removing the requirement to specify the identity of 2004. We are pleased to accept the amendment and the contractor in regulations. thank the noble Baroness for tabling it. As I said at the time, it is important that the regulator has the ability to contract out the functions Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister associated with the compliance regime to ensure that for his response. it can fulfil this new role in the most efficient and On Question, amendment agreed to. cost-effective way. However, as the Bill is currently drafted, there remains some doubt as to whether the Clause 130 [Delegation of powers by the Regulator]: regulator will be able to deliver through contractors. Our intention in delivering the compliance regime is Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 22: that the regulator will be able to delegate both the power to determine whether to exercise its functions 22: Clause 130, page 66, line 17, leave out from “functions),” to end of line 21 and insert “the existing provision becomes and its power to actually exercise those functions. sub-paragraph (1). This distinction is made in other parts of the Pensions (2A) For paragraph (e) of that sub-paragraph substitute— Act 2004 but not in paragraph 21 as amended by “(e) permitting the Regulator to authorise such persons, in Clause 130. Without this distinction, there is a risk such circumstances and under such arrangements, as the that the regulator would not be able to delegate decision- Regulator may determine, to exercise on behalf of the making relating to a function. In the case of compliance Regulator— notices, for example, this could mean that, every time (i) the power to determine whether to exercise any of a contractor wanted to issue a notice to an employer the functions listed in sub-paragraph (2); who had failed to auto-enrol a jobholder, it would (ii) the power to exercise any of the functions listed in need to pass this information back to the regulator for sub-paragraph (2) or such other functions as may be prescribed.” a formal decision and therefore, potentially, significantly increase the time for processing the notice and the (2B) After that sub-paragraph insert— potential for bottlenecks. We are therefore seeking to “(2) The functions mentioned in sub-paragraph (1)(e) are— introduce technical amendments to Clause 130 that (a) the power to issue an improvement notice under section would ensure absolute clarity by referring to both 13; exercise and determination. (b) the power to issue a third party notice under section 14; (c) the power to recover unpaid contributions under However, we do not want this power to allow the section 17; regulator to delegate both the exercise and determination (d) the power to require information under section 72; for the whole range of its functions. We want to explicitly limit the ability to contract out determination (e) the power to vary or revoke a determination, order, notice or direction under section 101; to the regulator’s activities to enforce the new compliance regime. The regulator has done further design work (f) the power to require payment of a penalty under section 10 of the Pensions Act 1995; over the summer on operational models and has identified the range of functions, both in this Bill and the 2004 Act, (g) the power to issue a compliance notice under section 34 of the Pensions Act 2008; to enable it to deliver the compliance regime. The amendment therefore explicitly limits the power to (h) the power to issue a third party compliance notice under section 35 of that Act; delegate the determination to those functions. The Secretary of State will retain his existing power, as (i) the power to issue an unpaid contributions notice under section 36 of that Act; amended in Committee, to enable the regulator to contract out the exercise, but not the determination, of (j) the power to issue a fixed penalty notice under section 39 of that Act; functions that are prescribed in regulations. (k) the power to issue an escalating penalty notice under Finally, Amendment No. 23 ensures that any section 40 of that Act; regulations that have already been made under the (l) the power to recover penalties under section 41 of that contracting-out powers in Schedule 1 to the 2004 Act Act; remain in force and may be amended for consolidation (m) the power to review a notice under section 42 of that purposes only. Act; (n) the power to issue a compliance notice in respect of It is worth stressing that these amendments relate prohibited recruitment conduct under section 50 of that to an existing regulation-making power. To enable the Act; regulator to contract out any of its functions, regulations (o) the power to issue a penalty notice in respect of will have to be laid before the House. In relation to the prohibited recruitment conduct under section 51 of that functions that the regulator is seeking to contract out Act.”” to deliver the compliance regime, we will be publishing The noble Lord said: My Lords, these technical regulations next year for consultation. amendments are designed to ensure that there is no I hope that noble Lords agree that it is important to confusion about the regulator’s ability to contract out ensure absolute clarity around the regulator’s ability its functions. Paragraph 21 of Schedule 1 to the Pensions to contract out and that they are reassured by our Act 2004 enables regulations to be made permitting efforts to limit this power as far as possible. I beg to the regulator to contract out its regulatory functions. move. Through the introduction of Clause 130 of this Bill, we amended Schedule 1 in Committee to facilitate the On Question, amendment agreed to. 1157 Pensions Bill[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Pensions Bill 1158

Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 23: “(1A) Subject to sub-paragraph (1B), the Secretary of State 23: Clause 130, page 66, line 22, at end insert— must consult the chair of the corporation before appointing an ordinary member (that is, a member who is not, on appointment, “(4) Subsections (2) to (2B)— also appointed as chair). (a) do not affect any regulations made under paragraph (1B) A vacancy in the office of chair does not prevent the 21(e) of Schedule 1 to the Pensions Act 2004 before the appointment of an ordinary member.” coming into force of this section, and (b) do not affect the powers conferred by that paragraph, so The noble Lord said: My Lords, we had a discussion far as exercisable for the purpose of making, by way of on Report about the role of the chair of the trustee consolidation, provision having the same effect as any corporation. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and provision of those regulations.” the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, gave the House the On Question, amendment agreed to. benefit of their extensive boardroom experience, in particular on the distinct role of the chair. Their Clause 132 [Additional Class 3 contributions]: argument on the need for the chair to be involved in the appointment process of other members was entirely Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendments Nos. 24 sensible and we committed to bringing back an to 26: amendment that would confirm this. Amendment No. 33 24: Clause 132, page 67, line 4, leave out “prescribed conditions” requires the Secretary of State to consult the chair and insert “conditions prescribed by regulations made by the before appointing any other members of the trustee Treasury” corporation. Proposed new sub-paragraph (1B) ensures 25: Clause 132, page 67, line 24, leave out “of a relevant class” that, if the chair is vacant, that will not prevent and insert “that are of a relevant class for the purposes of another member of the trustee corporation from being paragraph 5 or 5A of Schedule 3” appointed. It also allows for a group of inaugural 26: Clause 132, page 68, line 5, leave out “of a relevant class” members to be appointed, along with the inaugural and insert “that are of a relevant class for the purposes of chair. I beg to move. paragraph 5 of Schedule 3” On Question, amendments agreed to. Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I am grateful to the Government for bringing this back to respond to an Clause 133 [Additional Class 3 contributions (Northern issue that we raised. Ireland)]:

Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendments Nos. 27 Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: So am I, my to 29: Lords. 27: Clause 133, page 68, line 29, leave out “prescribed conditions” On Question, amendment agreed to. and insert “conditions prescribed by regulations made by the Treasury” Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendments Nos. 34 28: Clause 133, page 69, line 5, leave out “of a relevant class” and 35: and insert “that are of a relevant class for the purposes of paragraph 5 or 5A of Schedule 3” 34: Schedule 1, page 84, line 8, after “may” insert “, with the 29: Clause 133, page 69, line 31, leave out “of a relevant class” consent of the Treasury,” and insert “that are of a relevant class for the purposes of 35: Schedule 1, page 84, line 12, leave out from first “conditions” paragraph 5 of Schedule 3” to end of line 13 and insert— On Question, amendments agreed to. “(c) in the case of a loan, must be given on a condition requiring the loan to be repaid with interest at a rate Clause 140 [Orders and regulations]: approved by the Treasury. (3) Section 5 of the National Loans Act 1968 (c.13) (rates of interest on certain loans out of the National Loans Fund) has Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendments Nos. 30 effect as respects the rate of interest on a loan under this paragraph and 31: as it has effect as respects a rate of interest within subsection (1) 30: Clause 140, page 74, line 19, after “17(1)(c),” insert of that section.” “(Sections 20, 24 and 26: certification that quality requirement is On Question, amendments agreed to. satisfied),” 31: Clause 140, page 74, line 22, after “section”insert “(Sections 20, 24 and 26: certification that quality requirement is satisfied)(9),” Schedule 9 [Contribution notices and financial support On Question, amendments agreed to. directions under Pensions Act 2004]:

Clause 146 [Commencement]: Baroness Noakes moved Amendment No. 36: 36: Schedule 9, page 131, line 26, at end insert— Lord McKenzie of Luton moved Amendment No. 32: “3A In section 90(3) (revision of codes of practice), at the end 32: Clause 146, page 76, line 22, leave out paragraphs (g) and insert “except that the Regulator may not revise the whole or any (h) and insert— part of a code issued under subsection (2)(aa) before the expiry of “( ) sections 130 to 133;” 2 years from the first issuance of a code under that paragraph.”” On Question, amendment agreed to. The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 36 would insert a new paragraph into Schedule 9, 4.30 pm which, in turn, amends Section 90 of the Pensions Schedule 1 [The trustee corporation]: Act 2004 on statutory codes of practice. Paragraph 3 of Schedule 9 introduces the welcome requirement for Lord Tunnicliffe moved Amendment No. 33: a code of practice for the circumstances in which the 33: Schedule 1, page 78, line 11, at end insert— regulator expects to issue a material detriment contribution 1159 Pensions Bill[LORDS] Pensions Bill 1160

[BARONESS NOAKES] It has been generally understood that “severing” is notice under the provisions introduced by the Bill. The much more dramatic than “weakening” and certainly draft code of practice has already been issued by the more than we would expect to find in most routine regulator and that, too, has been useful. I do not know company reorganisations, which is where the employer when the code will be issued in its final form. Presumably debt provisions have caused a problem and led to the it will be early next year, as it is retrospective to April consultation under Section 75. this year. Perhaps the Minister can update the House Will the Minister confirm that the consultation on the likely timing. document does not represent a shift in thinking on the My amendment says that, once the code has been use of the material detriment provisions? Alternatively, issued, it should not be revised for two years. The aim are we expecting the code to say that company is to provide some stability for those who need to reorganisations more generally that involve a weakening navigate commercial transactions so that they do not will be included within the code? Either way, certainty run on to the rocks of the contribution notice regime. is required. When the Minister responds, perhaps he I am sure that the Minister will be aware that a will comment on why the Section 75 consultation contribution notice is regarded by companies and is such a big secret. I hope that he will recognise the their advisers as something to be avoided if at all business community’s legitimate concerns for certainty possible. and stability that lie behind the amendment. I beg The commercial world hates uncertainty and wants to move. a reasonable understanding of what the rules are so that business can be planned and executed in a reasonably Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, the secure way.There is quite enough change and uncertainty noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has been more resourceful in markets and in commercial life in general without than I have, as I have not yet got hold of a copy of the their having to cope with a constantly shifting regulatory document. However, I have been rather puzzled by the environment. I think that that is a commonplace in purpose and the timing of the consultation, as it seems terms of what constitutes better regulation, to which that the right honourable Rosie Winterton had hardly the Government are, of course, signed up. got her feet under the desk before it was issued. I I am aware that the existence of a code of practice wonder whether it is in some way to do with the arrival does not the prohibit the regulator from issuing a of the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, and whether it is contribution notice under new Section 38A but, as the all part of a great deregulatory agenda. However, it is Minister has reminded us on several occasions, the surprising that the consultation has suddenly been regulator must act reasonably and should therefore announced and not made public. A number of individuals, depart from the code only in unusual circumstances. including people in the pensions regulatory area, have That is why certainty as to the code is important in its expressed serious concerns to me about what is going own right. on. At the very least, will the Minister send noble I was prompted to table the amendment by the Lords a copy of the document—and if not, why not? Government’s recent consultation on Section 75 and Will he please put a copy in the Libraries of the employer debt, which was announced by a DWP Houses? Is there any secrecy or problem about it, Minister at a CBI breakfast a week or so ago. Its given that a very short timescale is involved? I would contents have been made available to a number of welcome reassurances on those points. organisations, but it is has not been made available publicly, even to the Official Opposition. However, we are resourceful people in the Opposition and we have Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I was not sure got a copy. that our discussion would go in this direction, but I am happy to try to deal with the points raised in The consultation document makes the point that relation to Section 75. I stress that an informal consultation any change to the employer debt regime would be is under way in advance of what might be the usual targeted at those who provide a strong covenant. It formal consultation. It has been driven because the goes on to say that the regulator would use its anti- Section 75 issue has been around for a little while. I am avoidance powers, including the new material detriment certain from the meetings that I have attended that the powers, to protect members’ benefits and the PPF. So CBI would maintain that it is the number one issue for far, so good. it so far as pension provision is concerned. That is why The following sentence in paragraph 14 of the we have gone down the path of kick-starting the consultation document caught the eye of one of my informal consultation, with the intent, depending on contacts: where that heads, to go through the more formal “Indeed the Government considers that such regulatory consultation processes in due course. intervention may be appropriate when a reorganisation would There is absolutely no reason why noble Lords have a detrimental impact on the pension scheme (for example should not see a copy of the consultation document; I such as a weakening of the employer covenant or the employer’s shall make sure that they are sent one straightaway. obligations to the scheme)”. Indeed, noble Lords’ input would be welcome. I This reference to simple “weakening”of the covenant attended the first stakeholder group meeting, which seems to be at odds with the quite clear sets of began to exchange hints and views on this matter. We circumstances set out in the code of practice. The need to see where it goes and whether the various nearest equivalent in the code of practice is about the, propositions set down in this informal consultation “severing of employer support for the scheme so that employer are the right way forward. There were four support is removed, substantially reduced or becomes nominal”. propositions, one of which was to have no change. 1161 Pensions Bill[19 NOVEMBER 2008] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1162

Another was to switch the process of triggering the members’ benefits in this fast-developing and innovative debt and apportionment, so that apportionment goes market. We cannot rule out that certain parties may first and the trigger of the debt follows that. see the definitions in the code as a challenge to design structures not falling within these definitions, which Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I thank may still cause unacceptable risks to pension scheme the Minister for that assurance. However, it makes me members and the PPF. However, I understand that wonder when a consultation is not a consultation. employers and the pensions industry require as much How many people or bodies are being informally certainty as possible. consulted at the moment? As I said at Report, officials worked closely with Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, on the number the regulator and key stakeholders during the summer of bodies being informally consulted, I think that the to prepare the contents of the draft code, which was interests around the table included the Pensions published on 20 October. In drafting the code, the Regulator—this is not a state secret—as well as the regulator and stakeholders started from a consideration CBI, the Association of Pension Lawyers and the of new business models and the risks that these represented actuaries. to members’ benefits. They considered a range of circumstances where it could be appropriate to use the Baroness Noakes: In other words, my Lords, the material detriment test. For example, most routine usual suspects. corporate activities, such as routine dividend payments, are excluded from the code; whereas other non-routine Lord McKenzie of Luton: Indeed, my Lords—a nice events, such as the severance of the operating company summary. But I shall resist trying to give a definition from its pension scheme which may substantially increase as to when an informal consultation becomes a formal risk to members benefits, would be in scope. one. Following this development work, the regulator is Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: Was the TUC confident that the draft code sets out the right there? circumstances. Therefore, I should like to offer my assurance that the regulator cannot currently envisage Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, indeed, it was. any other circumstances which it would need to add to There is nothing sinister about this. The issue is a the code in the next two years. As a precautionary serious one; we are trying to understand the scale of measure, however, we could not preclude that if the issue and how it might be addressed, if it warrants circumstances arose. On that basis, I ask the noble a change in the current position. I stress that there is Baroness not to press the amendment. no shift in relation to the position so far as we have discussed the material detriment test and the code of 4.45 pm practice. Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister As for the consultation on the code that we refer to for that reply and for confirming that there is currently here, it cannot start until Royal Assent, which we hope no intention shortly to change the code and that, in will be imminent. We hope that the code will be in particular, the Section 75 consultation document does place in the first half of 2009—obviously, after being not imply any change of view at this stage. I am laid before Parliament. grateful for those assurances. I apologise to the Minister Noble Lords will recall that, as part of the package for bowling a fast ball on the Section 75 consultation of amendments on the Pensions Regulator’s anti- but I could not resist as this is the last amendment that avoidance powers, we introduced a requirement on the we will be debating on this Bill. However, the Minister regulator to publish a code of practice. This code showed his usual, excellent skill and batted my ball would set out the circumstances in which the regulator away. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. expects to issue a contribution notice under the material Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. detriment test, as the noble Baroness explained. The Government concluded, in consultation with key Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I beg to move stakeholders, including the CBI, that setting out these that this Bill do now pass. Although I would like to say circumstances in a code was the most appropriate a few words to reflect on the progress made, perhaps I approach. This approach would allow the regulator, in can simply thank all noble Lords who engaged with consultation with stakeholders, to update the code in the Bill and, in particular, the Bill team for their light of its operation while giving employers and trustees excellent work. a degree of certainty on the application of the law. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Bill passed, Section 91 of the 2004 Act allows for codes of and returned to the Commons with amendments. practice to be updated, but such changes have to be consulted on and are subject to the Secretary of State’s approval. The Secretary of State is required to lay the Dormant Bank and Building Society draft code in Parliament for a period of 40 days and either House may resolve that no further proceedings Accounts Bill [HL] be taken on the draft code. 4.46 pm Amendment No. 36 would remove the regulator’s discretion to modify the code of practice in the light of Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move its operation during the first two years of its introduction. that the Commons amendments be now considered. It would not be right to prevent the regulator being Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion able to update the code to deal with new risks to agreed to. 1163 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[LORDS] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1164

COMMONS AMENDMENTS on this point so that they are not constrained in their [The page and line references are to Bill 80 as first ability to participate in the scheme. We have therefore printed for the Commons.] introduced this amendment, which is a technical clarification confirming that accounts owned by deceased persons are indeed eligible for transfer into the scheme. AMENDMENT NO. 1 Amendment No. 8 also is a technical amendment. 1: Page 1, line 15, at end insert- It ensures that notice accounts, where a short notice “( ) The reference in subsection (1) to an account that a person period is required before a withdrawal can be made, holds is to be read as including an account held by a deceased individual immediately before his or her death. are not excluded from the scheme under the provision In such a case, a reference in subsection (2) to the customer is that was made for fixed-term accounts. Amendment to be read as a reference to the person to whom the right to No. 9 covers our intention to ensure that genuinely payment of the balance has passed.” dormant bank and building society accounts lost by the account holder will be transferred into the scheme, and not those accounts which are simply rarely used but of which the account holder is still aware. This will Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move minimise unnecessary costs associated with returning that the House do agree with the Commons in their accounts to customers after transfer. We want, of Amendment No. 1. I shall also speak to the other course, to keep the necessity for any return transfer to amendments in this group. an absolute minimum. I begin by setting out what it means for an account Our scheme provides a definition of dormancy that to be dormant and exactly what the definition must is simple, clear and straightforward. It is an account achieve. It is vital that the definition is completely open throughout a period of 15 years with no customer- clear so that no institution can be in any doubt when it initiated transactions. However, the scheme is also transfers an account to the scheme about whether the sophisticated. It allows banks and building societies account qualifies as dormant. The definition must be the flexibility to refer to customer-initiated activities able to be applied simply and effectively by over which may indicate that an account is not in fact 200 institutions, each with a wide range of accounts dormant even where there have been no transactions with differing features, customer bases and usage profiles. on it. Of course in those circumstances the account At the same time, we are committed to doing the would not fall within the framework of the scheme. utmost to ensure that only truly dormant accounts are If the institution is aware of activity—the request transferred into the scheme. However, the available of periodic statements, for example—we would fully information which could be used to identify whether expect institutions not to transfer such accounts. an account is active varies enormously between Furthermore, those with particularly strong or institutions, and even between different accounts in individualised systems will be able take this into account the same institution. We are confident that with the in their individual policies. This flexibility is one of the refinements in the definition produced by the Bill’s great strengths of our scheme. Institutions will be passage through both Houses, we now have a definition expected to use their knowledge. That was indicated in that is both clear enough to provide a simple and our consultation and is clearly set out in the Explanatory effective test and flexible enough to allow the institutions Notes. to take into account the information available to them The Building Societies Association has said that the The key condition of no customer-initiated transactions ability to take account of other forms of customer in relation to the account for 15 years is both simple contact is “particularly important” to it, and that it and universally applicable. Yet there is flexibility for supports the Bill as it is. The British Bankers’ Association an institution to refer to any consumer activity of has also welcomed, which it has knowledge in deciding whether an account is genuinely dormant. That could include, for example, “The ability to take into account other indications of whether correspondence, telephone calls, emails or voting at an account is genuinely dormant”. AGMs. Under the Banking Code, each institution is Furthermore, it is simply not in the interests of any required to publish clearly, for all their customers to institution to transfer an account to the scheme unless see, the criteria it will use to decide the issue of the deposit-taker and the customer have genuinely lost account dormancy. With that in mind, I turn specifically touch. This would add to the administration of the to the amendments before us. scheme, a substantial proportion of which will be The Government’s intention is that all bank and borne by those institutions themselves. Requiring building society accounts based on the definition of institutions to use all their knowledge in legislation is dormancy in the Bill are eligible for transfer into the unnecessary, as it adds nothing to the scheme. On the scheme. Naturally, this includes accounts that could contrary, it would have a detrimental impact on the have been opened a very long time ago. When we first clarity of the definition. debated the Bill in this House, we were asked to clarify It is immediately apparent in the Bill when the the position for accounts owned by deceased persons. minimum definition of dormancy has been achieved. It is of course unlikely that banks and building societies If there has been a transaction in the last 15 years, the will know whether account holders are living or deceased. account cannot be considered dormant. If there has Unless they have very good reason not to, we would not been a transaction in that time, it can be considered expect them to transfer into the scheme all accounts so. Most importantly, however, the consumer will have that fit within the 15-year qualification period. However, a full right to repayment in all circumstances through we understand that institutions wish to have certainty the bank or building society where they held the 1165 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[19 NOVEMBER 2008] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1166 account, whether or not it is transferred under the Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move scheme. The consumer experience will not even differ. that the House do agree with the Commons in their The process of recovering their account will be the Amendment No. 2. I wish to speak also to Amendment same to them. All they will have to do once they No. 2A and to the other amendments in the group. I identify that they have an account with the institution remind noble Lords of the objective of this Bill. I am is to present suitable proof of identity and of account not unmindful of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord ownership. Once their identity has been established, Shutt of Greetland, holds a somewhat different view the bank or building society will reinstate their account from the Government on this. I shall in no way, shape or pay them the balance. The only difference if the or form attempt to pre-empt his arguments. I will, of new account has been transferred under the scheme course, bend the ever-listening ear to what he has to will be that the bank or building society will subsequently say, but wish to indicate the strength of the Government’s recover the balance from the reclaim fund. We therefore position as we see it. oppose any change to the definition of “dormancy” in The Bill sets out to facilitate fair and efficient the original draft of the Bill. distribution of funds in dormant accounts for the As regards Amendments Nos. 10, 10A and 10B and benefit of the wider society. Small banks and building the period of 15 years, we recognise that there is societies often play a key role in supporting and engaging considerable debate over the suitable length of the with their local communities. For this reason, the period for the purpose of defining dormant accounts. Government have always been clear that small, locally We believe that 15 years’ customer inactivity is the based institutions would be able to focus dormant most appropriate time to determine whether an account account assets on real needs in their local communities. is truly dormant. That figure was arrived at after Of course, the Government recognise the value of considerable discussion with industry and consultation. “small and local”. It is also the figure that other countries, including We consulted with the bank and building society Ireland, have adopted in legislation. sector, and the Government identified a £7 billion Industry has estimated that 80 per cent of accounts turnover as a credible threshold to define small and that have had no customer initiated activity for 15 years locally based institutions. The Building Societies are truly dormant. Adopting a lower dormancy period Association advised us that more than 90 per cent of runs the risk of a higher reclaim rate, with a corresponding building societies with less than £7 billion total assets inevitable increase in costs. In any case, any accounts have all their branches within 70 miles of their head which are truly dormant will still be dormant when office. Thus “small” also means reasonably local. they reach the 15-year mark, and will come into the scheme then. However, we have listened carefully to By contrast, the big building societies are, by definition, the arguments for a shorter period, which have been not small and are not local. The noble Lord, Lord put on a number of occasions. We accept that, in the Shutt, will forgive me if I draw attention to a building future, the experience of the operation of the scheme society based in Yorkshire, as he is likely to quote and of industry could suggest that there should be an Yorkshire-based examples back to me. The Leeds Building alternative figure to that in the Bill. Accordingly, the Society, which is the smallest of those that will be Commons amendment brings forward a reserve power above the £7 billion threshold, with assets of £9.2 billion, for the Treasury to amend the dormancy period. The has branches the length and breadth of the country, amendment was drafted with a negative resolution from Aberdeen to Southampton and from Belfast to procedure. However, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Braintree. Reform Committee considered this power and We are confident that the asset limit that we have recommended that, since the definition of a “dormant identified enables genuinely small and local institutions account” is central to the purpose of the Bill, the to provide support for their local communities, while power to amend the 15-year period should be subject ensuring that funds from institutions that operate on a to the affirmative procedure. We have, of course, respected national scale are distributed towards the agreed national its conclusions and representations and are happy to spending priorities in a co-ordinated fashion. bring forward Amendment No. 10B for inclusion in Let us be clear: the Government are of course the Bill. Accordingly, I will move that amendment committed to supporting mutual organisations and when we get to it. I beg to move. recognise the many benefits that they bring to society Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons and communities across the UK. If I had any doubts in their Amendment No. 1.—(Lord Davies of Oldham.) about this matter, my recollection of exchanges with the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, and other noble Lords in Baroness Noakes: My Lords, we on these Benches the House earlier in the year would have convinced me are content with the package of changes that the of the virtues of the mutuals. We recently introduced Minister has put before us. We might regret that some new legislation to support the mutuals sector, including of our pride of authorship has disappeared as regards improving rights relating to members’ shares and some of these amendments, but the overall package is improving the procedures involved in transferring business acceptable. to the subsidiary of another mutual. On Question, Motion agreed to. Let us also be clear that the vast majority of building societies will be eligible for the alternative scheme. According to the BSA’s November 2008 statistics, AMENDMENT NO. 2 50 of its 59 members, nearly 85 percent, will meet the 2: Page 2, line 1, leave out “building society or a smaller bank” “small and local” definition and the distribution of and insert “smaller bank or building society” resources within that framework. 1167 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[LORDS] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1168

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] applications and in administering the volumes of It was pointed out at Second Reading that the money that the dormant accounts scheme will be building societies that will not be eligible hold the vast expected to generate. majority of the dormant account funds in the sector. We welcome the October statement from the Building That is correct. To be precise, the BSA estimated that Societies Association supporting the Bill and the of the £130 million in dormant accounts in the sector, Government’s proposals for an alternative scheme for £100 million lay in the larger institutions. smaller financial institutions. We also welcome the Much has been said of the great need in the areas to statement of the coalition of building societies expressing which the spending priorities of this scheme have been its members’ commitment to making the scheme a directed. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, will take solace success and its intention to participate in it. Likewise, in knowing that this was a subject of considerable the British Bankers’ Association offered a statement debate in the other place. It was hardly likely that confirming commitment to participate from banking Members of Parliament, with their representative role groups which represent 90 per cent of the UK retail in their constituencies, would miss the opportunity of banking market. emphasising the local good that this dormant accounts The proposed scheme is designed to be simple and scheme could provide from the institutions that would efficient to minimise costs to institutions and the contribute to it. However, MPs emphasised also, with scheme overall, and to maximise funds for distribution. great force, the advantages to their communities of the The asset limit provides a balance between giving priorities to which the major resources from the big small, locally based banks and building societies the building societies and banks would be directed: youth flexibility to directly benefit their local communities facilities, a social investment wholesaler and improving against maximising assets for the main scheme. financial capability and inclusion. On the latter point, we are all too well aware that the more difficult the The government amendments are designed to create economic circumstances, the greater the need for people an alternative scheme for small, locally based institutions. to be able to manage their affairs effectively. Those require a definition, which is given accurately in the Bill, and I therefore hope that the House will If the largest building societies do not take part in support Commons Amendment No. 2 and the other the main scheme, quite simply we undermine our government amendments when they are brought forward. ability to fund these very important initiatives for the wider society. The Government are aware that banks Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons and building societies already support a variety of in their Amendment No. 2.—(Lord Davies of Oldham.) good causes in different communities, and we applaud Lord Shutt of Greetland moved, as an amendment those initiatives, but are they really in the best position to the Motion that this House do agree with the consistently to consider the needs of wider communities Commons in their Amendment No. 2, leave out “agree” throughout the UK? If we allow dormant account and insert “disagree”. money to be administered through multiple individual foundations, that will inevitably lead to significant The noble Lord said: My Lords, this issue is about overlaps and also to possible gaps in provision. the best way to dispense moneys when we all agree that the beneficiaries should be good causes. Perhaps I In the interests of the fair and efficient distribution should declare an interest as a grant-maker. For nearly of substantial funds, it is right that we concentrate on 35 years, I have been a trustee, particularly with the establishing centralised, national distribution. With Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust and the JRSST respect to the main scheme, the Big Lottery Fund has Charitable Trust, and I am a vice-president of the a track record of ensuring that all communities Community Foundation for Calderdale. benefit from its funding. At this point, I should say that I am all too well aware that for every success in In our previous discussions, we have resolved that relation to National Lottery allocation, there will be all building societies should be encompassed in the attendant disappointments, and that therefore Big’s scheme for the smaller banks and building societies. record will be subject to criticism. However, given the That was the position when the Bill left this place on forebodings expressed during the passage of the Bill 31 January. At that time, there were 59 building societies, about the arrangements for the National Lottery and 51 of which were regarded as small and eight of which the distribution of its funds, and given the flurry of were regarded as large. I want to recap the case that questions that were asked shortly after it began to was made then. operate, it is markedly the case that the lottery’s First, the big eight wanted to be included in the distribution work is subject to much less criticism smaller banks scheme. They did not want to be volunteered than was foreshadowed. That suggests that the Big into the bank scheme; we are told that it is a voluntary Lottery Fund is doing its job ably and reflects the scheme. Secondly, seven out of eight of those big fact that it is well placed to do so. It has a track record building societies have in place their own building of ensuring that all communities benefit from its society foundations. They are experienced grant-makers funding; it has used, and will be expected to use in and they have independent trustees who are at arm’s relation to dormant accounts assets, a variety of length from the institutions. Thirdly, we believed then, methods to achieve a fair regional and local spread and the House agreed, that it was invidious to exclude of funding; and it already has a comprehensive them on the basis of 51 to eight. The Nationwide, as a infrastructure in place for distributing funds on a big society, is an exception. I still do not accept that national level, in line with spending directions. the others are big societies in the same way as are Therefore, here is an institution with considerable those that demutualised, which were much bigger. knowledge of, and experience in, fielding grant Surely the aims of the Nationwide are splendid in 1169 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[19 NOVEMBER 2008] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1170 terms of its foundation and the good that it is doing If that merger takes place, what sort of animal does throughout the land. Fourthly, decision-making by the Britannia become? Does it become part of the those building societies and their foundations is often Co-op? If it does, is it not covered by the Bill? Many of speedy and in many cases the members are involved. us argued that the definition of dormant assets was far Fifthly, grants are made to local and regional groups, too tight and that we should be looking at insurance away from the centralised position that we are offered and so forth. We found that in one of the American with the National Lottery. states there are more than 100 definitions of dormancy, Since the Bill left this place in January, it has been but we were told that we had to be tight and consider dormant for 10 and a half months, but quite a bit has banks and building societies only. Will the Britannia happened in the banking and building society world. escape because it becomes a different being? Let us look at building societies. We had the big eight The amendment that I was able to persuade the but, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has indicated, we House to accept meant that people believed that resources have the November list, in which we find that we now would be available to communities, localities and regions. have the big nine. The Derbyshire has passed the Communities in Derbyshire, Cheshire, Barnsley and threshold and gone over the £7 billion level. However, Scarborough certainly have every expectation that that because of difficulties in the building society movement, is the case, yet if the Minister has his way the resources the Derbyshire and the Cheshire are to be taken over will go into the large scheme and those places will not by the Nationwide; furthermore, the Scarborough is share on a local basis. to be taken over by the Skipton; the Barnsley is to be Three points were raised by the Minister. He mentioned taken over by the Yorkshire; and the Catholic is to be that the Building Societies Association suggested that taken over by the Chelsea. That means that the assets the Bill is the right way forward. The Building Societies in the smaller societies are now £43.2 billion rather Association seems to be a strange outfit. It may be than £58.5 billion. Similarly, 16.5 per cent of the good in many respects, but it seems strange for an building society movement was in the smaller societies association to say that it supports a position while but, after the mergers take place, the figure will be 83.5 per cent of its members by financial weight think 12.2 per cent. A quarter of the funds that would have rather differently. However, that is its affair; perhaps it been distributed to local and regional causes will now is good at doing other things. be distributed by the National Lottery. It was interesting that the Minister mentioned the Next, we have the credit crunch. Regardless of the Leeds Building Society. Back in 1959, as an articled views of noble Lords on banks and the way in which clerk, I was involved in auditing it. In those days, it they behave, the banks have had a good record on was the Leeds and Holbeck. It may have branches grant-making and on their social responsibilities. The based substantially in Leeds—when I was there, it had financial sector has been a good donor. Indeed, many eight or nine branches in the city and it certainly has years ago, this House saw to it that one such bank was branches throughout Yorkshire—but, like many others, a good donor. When the TSB was privatised, the late it has put its tentacles a little further. Look at the Lord Taylor of Gryfe inserted an amendment requiring board; you will find that it is based in Leeds. 1 per cent of its profits to go to good causes. When Thirdly, the Minister talked about undermining the Lloyds took over the TSB, it had to be a reverse scheme for youth. In my view, there is plenty to go at takeover and the 1 per cent still followed. with the resources that will be available from the larger What is going to happen to grant-making by financial banks. The amazing thing about the Bill is that, regardless institutions in the current climate? Grant-seekers who of the credit crunch and other financial problems, have been looking in the financial services area could cash is cash. What we are talking about today are the be in some difficulties because the way in which the same resources that we talked about 10 and a half banks are functioning after the bail-out and the restriction months ago. It is not some stock that has fallen in on dividends may make the institutions feel that they value and is now worth a quarter of what it was; it is cannot be as generous. I hope that they do not take exactly the same. If noble Lords would like to see that view, but I can see circumstances in which they diversity in grant-making and support for localities will not be able to be as generous. Members of this and regions, they should support the amendment. House know about grant-giving and grant-seeking, but I hope that that point will be pondered. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, presenting what I can 5.15 pm only call well rehearsed arguments. We last heard them The mergers that I mentioned have not yet taken in February, not as far back as January, but I freely place, although we have every expectation that they confess that that is a long way back. I remember the will in the next few months. However, there is another. force with which he presented the argument then, The Britannia Building Society, the second largest which is why I have prepared with considerable care building society, has announced that it is in exploratory for the issue today. talks with Co-operative Financial Services, including The noble Lord must accept that, if there is a over a possible future merger. It said: merger between two societies that takes them significantly “This would be enabled through the introduction of measures past the line that we draw, they have moved from one contained in the Building Societies (Funding) & Mutual Societies category into another. It will not do for him to say that (Transfers) Act—known as the Butterfill bill … A merger would also have to be approved in a vote by Britannia’s members … The that is a pity because one of them, at least, was small. organisations … have similar values and share a mutual ethos, so All banks and building societies started small, especially there would be a strong cultural fit”. building societies. It may be a long time back for him 1171 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[LORDS] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1172

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] over it or you are not. The Government have now to remember—it takes him back past his Leeds and jumped over it, to the detriment of the localities, and it Holbeck days—but all banks and building societies is the same for everyone else. started small. No one would suggest that our major Secondly, the Minister acknowledged that the banks are small, local institutions. institutions, including the banks and the building societies, That is the logic behind the Bill: there is a difference are experienced grant-makers. However, the banks did between institutions that are small and local and those not make contact with us at any point. I found that that are not. We consulted widely on where the line thoroughly disappointing, quite frankly—clearly, they should be drawn. The noble Lord knows that the were not that interested—but the building societies institutions have offered broad approval to the proposal. did, which is why the amendment was tabled and why I There have been recent changes of some significance, press it today. I wish to test the opinion of the House. but he will have to accept that this will always be the case when we draw up a set of criteria and institutions 5.29 pm change through mergers. He cannot sustain much of a case on that. On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 2A) shall be agreed to? The noble Lord is right to say that large institutions are experienced grant-makers; of course they are. We Their Lordships divided: Contents, 64; Not- could have proposed that the whole of the fund was Contents, 152. left in the hands of those institutions. However, the banks do not own the funds. The people who have the Division No. 1 accounts own these resources, which is why those people have the right at any stage to claim from the CONTENTS reclaim fund if their resources have been transferred Addington, L. Maddock, B. to it. It is their money, not the banks’ money. It is a Allenby of Megiddo, V. Mancroft, L. Alton of Liverpool, L. Marlesford, L. chance feature of banking activity that there are dormant Avebury, L. Masham of Ilton, B. accounts, which add up to a considerable sum of Barker, B. Methuen, L. money. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Institutions have signed up to the concept that B. B. Bowness, L. Montagu of Beaulieu, L. these resources should not lie dormant—they are of Bradshaw, L. Neuberger, B. no use to the individual, who, by definition, is not Brookeborough, V. Newby, L. taking any advantage of them—but should be put to Chalker of Wallasey, B. Patten, L. community use until someone lays claim to them, Clement-Jones, L. Powell of Bayswater, L. when they will get their full reparation. Where the Craigavon, V. Razzall, L. Dholakia, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. institutions are small enough to be defined as local, D’Souza, B. Roberts of Llandudno, L. they will take responsibility for distributing these resources Dykes, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. in their localities. In the case of large institutions, Falkland, V. Rogan, L. which we have defined in the Bill, it is right that the Ferrers, E. Selsdon, L. objectives should be defined as nationwide objectives Garden of Frognal, B. Sharp of Guildford, B. Glasgow, E. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] in principle but that the distribution should be effected Goodhart, L. Smith of Clifton, L. through a guaranteed distribution mechanism. As I Greaves, L. Stewartby, L. said earlier—I do not want to repeat myself—that is Hamwee, B. Teverson, L. [Teller] the role of the Big Lottery Fund. Harris of Richmond, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. The noble Lord has fought his corner well and Hooson, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. strongly. I know that he feels deeply about these issues, Laird, L. Tonge, B. but I think that a great deal of his commitment is Lamont of Lerwick, L. Tope, L. about the small and the local, the force of which the Lee of Trafford, L. Tordoff, L. Bill recognises. Of course the Government recognise Linklater of Butterstone, B. Tugendhat, L. the strength of the small, mutual society, but we must Livsey of Talgarth, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Mackie of Benshie, L. Walpole, L. make provision for a different world. Nine of our McNally, L. Watson of Richmond, L. building societies—eight now, through the changes—are very large indeed and it is right that we have a different NOT CONTENTS strategy for them. I therefore hope that the House will not accept the noble Lord’s amendment and will agree Adams of Craigielea, B. Boothroyd, B. to the government amendment. Adonis, L. Borrie, L. Ahmed, L. Bragg, L. Anderson of Swansea, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, without a Andrews, B. Brookman, L. wide-ranging debate, I shall respond to the Minister Archer of Sandwell, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. on only two points. First, we talked about small and Bach, L. Campbell-Savours, L. large. When we met 10 months ago, the Derbyshire Barnett, L. Carey of Clifton, L. Building Society was small, regardless of the changes Bassam of Brighton, L. Carter of Barnes, L. of the potential takeover. Today, it is large, according [Teller] Carter of Coles, L. Berkeley, L. Chester, Bp. to these rules. The Minister, one believes, knew what Billingham, B. Christopher, L. he was doing 10 months ago. Would he do the same Bilston, L. Clarke of Hampstead, L. thing today as far as the Derbyshire Building Society Blackstone, B. Clinton-Davis, L. is concerned? The cliff edge is there; you are either Blood, B. Corbett of Castle Vale, L. 1173 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[19 NOVEMBER 2008] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1174

Craig of Radley, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. In such a case, a reference in subsection (2) to the customer is Crawley, B. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. to be read as a reference to the person to whom the right to Cunningham of Felling, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, payment of the balance has passed.” Darzi of Denham, L. L. Davidson of Glen Clova, L. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move McKenzie of Luton, L. that the House do agree with the Commons in their Davies of Coity, L. Maxton, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Meacher, B. Amendment No. 3. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Moonie, L. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion B. Morgan, L. Desai, L. agreed to. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Dixon, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Dubs, L. AMENDMENTS NOS. 4 TO 6 Elystan-Morgan, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. 4: Page 2, line 27, after “bank” insert “or building society” Evans of Parkside, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. 5: Page 2, line 43, after “bank” insert “or building society” Moser, L. Falkender, B. 6: Page 2, line 46, after “bank” insert “or building society” Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Newcastle, Bp. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Norton of Louth, L. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move Filkin, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Parekh, L. that the House do agree with the Commons in their Ford, B. Patel of Blackburn, L. Amendments Nos. 4 to 6. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons Gale, B. Pendry, L. in their Amendments Nos. 4 to 6.—(Lord Davies of Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Pitkeathley, B. Oldham Giddens, L. Plant of Highfield, L. .) Golding, B. Portsmouth, Bp. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Prosser, B. [Amendments Nos. 4A to 6A not moved.] Gould of Potternewton, B. Prys-Davies, L. Graham of Edmonton, L. Quin, B. On Question, Motion agreed to. Grantchester, L. Radice, L. Greenway, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Rea, L. AMENDMENT NO. 7 Grocott, L. Richard, L. 7: Leave out Clause 6 Hannay of Chiswick, L. Rooker, L. 7B: Page 4, line 32, at end insert- Harris of Haringey, L. Rosser, L. “( ) The Treasury shall lay before Parliament a copy of any Harrison, L. Rowlands, L. direction given under subsection (4).” Hart of Chilton, L. Sawyer, L. Haskel, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Haworth, L. Simon, V. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move Henig, B. Snape, L. that the House do agree with the Commons in their Hilton of Eggardon, B. Soley, L. Amendment No. 7 and do propose Amendment No. 7B Hollis of Heigham, B. Strabolgi, L. in lieu of the words so left out of the Bill. I shall speak Howarth of Breckland, B. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. also to the other amendments in this group. I hope Howarth of Newport, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. that the House will agree that these amendments show Howells of St. Davids, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Howie of Troon, L. Temple-Morris, L. that the Government have listened to the debates held Hoyle, L. Tenby, V. both in this House and in the other place, and are Hughes of Woodside, L. Thornton, B. seeking to reinforce the principle of transparency in Irvine of Lairg, L. Tomlinson, L. the Bill. This is an issue that has been advanced on all Jay of Ewelme, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] sides, and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, B. Turner of Camden, B. Jones, L. Uddin, B. Noakes, for the force with which she has presented her Judd, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. case. I hope, too, that she will see that we have moved King of West Bromwich, L. Warner, L. to meet the arguments made. Kingsmill, B. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. We regard transparency as being of crucial importance Kirkhill, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Layard, L. West of Spithead, L. for the scheme. I would remind noble Lords that Levy, L. Whitaker, B. Schedule 1 already requires the reclaim fund to publish Lipsey, L. Whitty, L. on an annual basis a list of institutions participating Low of Dalston, L. Wilkins, B. in the scheme, the amounts of money transferred into Macaulay of Bragar, L. Williams of Elvel, L. the scheme—at individual institution level, the amounts McDonagh, B. Williamson of Horton, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. of money reclaimed by consumers—and the aggregate McIntosh of Haringey, L. Young of Hornsey, B. amount passed to the Big Lottery Fund. This information will be available for public scrutiny. Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed As a result of being formed as a company under the to accordingly. Companies Act, the reclaim fund will be required to prepare annual accounts and reports each year. On Question, Motion agreed to. Government Amendments Nos. 15 to 19 require the reclaim fund to publish this information as soon as 5.40 pm possible after the end of each financial year so that it is available for all to see, including noble Lords. Visibility AMENDMENT NO. 3 of the reclaim fund’s accounts and report was a matter 3: Page 2, line 19, at end insert- of concern and lengthy debate in this House and, I “( ) The reference in subsection (1) to an account that a person believe, a key concern behind the tabling of what was holds is to be read as including an account held by a deceased the original Clause 6. We believe that the government individual immediately before his or her death. amendments address this concern while recognising 1175 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[LORDS] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1176

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister that the reclaim fund is a private rather than a public for introducing Amendments Nos. 7, 7A and 7B. I body. I want to emphasise that we are talking about a shall not go over the interesting discussions that we body that is not a government agency. had before on whether this is a private body, a public To require the reclaim fund to lay its annual accounts body or a hybrid. The plain fact is that this is the only and reports before Parliament is unnecessary in the example that anyone can locate of a private sector light of the amendments we have tabled to increase the body—if, indeed, it is one—which has a power of transparency of the fund’s work. Requiring the fund direction from the Treasury. That is why, when the to report directly to Government and Parliament would Government chose to remove Clause 6, which we so be to define it as a public body and would be out of painstakingly inserted into the Bill during its passage keeping with the fund’s status as a private body. We through your Lordships’ House, we were disappointed. have also reflected carefully on the debates about the Nevertheless, that has been considerably ameliorated Treasury’s direction-making power. I wish to stress by the Government bringing forward Amendment first and foremost that it is not the case that the No. 7B, which we welcome because it contains the reclaim fund is a public sector body, so the Treasury most important part of what was in Clause 6. I thank is not in a position to give directions, as some have the Minister for that. contended. The Bill sets out how the reclaim fund will be Lord Newby: My Lords, like the noble Baroness, we constituted. It does not establish a reclaim fund since are grateful to the Minister for his explanation and for that is a task for the industry. As the creature of the reintroducing the key part of Clause 6 in Amendment institutions that establish it, the fund will be truly No. 7B. I am tempted to at least begin to reopen the independent of government. We do not envisage using arguments about what kind of body this is. I was not the direction-making power in the Bill to interfere in convinced when we debated it before, and I am certainly the day-to-day running of the reclaim fund and the not convinced now, about this concept of a body management of its money. That will be the sole whose purpose is to raise money that the Government responsibility of the Financial Services Authority, then spend at their own discretion but which is nothing which will regulate the reclaim fund for obvious prudential to do with government. It is a wonderful model. If purposes. government could do this across the board, just imagine, there would be bodies which were not public bodies 5.45 pm but whose sole function was to raise money which the The direction-making power that we are taking is Government would then decide, in minute detail, how not a day-to-day issue; it is the ultimate sanction that to spend. the nation would expect us to have to ensure that the We spent many hours discussing this earlier, however, reclaim fund functions in accordance with the articles and it would tax the patience of the House to go any of association, particularly in those areas which the further. We support the amendment. FSA will not regulate and where it would not be expected to do so. This includes, in principle, the requirements in Schedule 1 to the Bill of the publication Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful of information by the reclaim fund on the use of for the graciousness that both noble Lords have displayed. money to cover reasonable running costs, or the I am more grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, requirements elsewhere to transfer surplus money to because she did not produce quite the quibble that the the Big Lottery Fund. The power the Treasury will noble Lord, Lord Newby, had. The noble Lord said have is meant to be used only in exceptional circumstances how extraordinary it was for a non-public body to to require the reclaim fund to comply with the statutory raise money, but let me be absolutely clear that this requirements under the legislation—no more and no organisation is not raising any money. Transferred to less than that. it will be dormant accounts which, I insist again, I recognise that there are concerns about the power belong to the owners of those accounts if they succeed scheduled for the Treasury. However, the Government’s in establishing title at some later stage. The noble Lord new amendment addresses those concerns by requiring will not get away with raising the spectre of the the Treasury to lay before both Houses any directions Government being fertile in how to pass the crucial to the reclaim fund so that there is complete transparency role of Parliament with regard to raising resources for in the use of the power. The amendment is similar in public purposes. effect to the second part of what was originally Clause 6. On Question, Motion agreed to. I hope that I have satisfied the House that the power that the Treasury seeks is an exceptional reserve power to deal with the reclaim fund. However, I accept AMENDMENTS NOS. 8 AND 9 that if and when it is ever exercised it should be subject 8: Page 7, line 3, at end insert “in all circumstances” to full transparency. I hope the House will recognise 9: Page 7, line 4, leave out subsection (3) that we have a reserve power which the Treasury can effect only by ensuring that there is transparency, and that it will support the Government’s position. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons that the House do agree with the Commons in their in their Amendment No. 7 and do propose Amendment Amendments Nos. 8 and 9. No. 7B in lieu of the words so left out of the Bill.—(Lord Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion Davies of Oldham.) agreed to. 1177 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[19 NOVEMBER 2008] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1178

AMENDMENT NO. 10 of representations in this House and in the other 10: Page 7, line 13, at end insert- place, and I hope it will be recognised that we have “( ) The Treasury may by order amend the figure in listened to these views and are acting accordingly. subsection (1)(a). The clause is clear and detailed. It commits the ( ) An order under this section is subject to annulment in Government to review the scheme within three years pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.” after it is up and running. The review will cover the 10B: Line 3, leave out from ″section″ to ″House″ in line 4 and effectiveness of the money inside the scheme. This insert ″may not be made unless a draft of the statutory instrument includes industry arrangements for reuniting customers containing it has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each″ with accounts before they are dormant, industry participation in the scheme, and the arrangements for repaying customers whose assets have been transferred Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move to the scheme. This will be based on consultation with that the House do agree with the Commons in their all relevant parties. Amendment No. 10, but do propose Amendment I insist again that this scheme comes from the No. 10B as an amendment thereto. industry and we could not make this move without the Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion fullest consultation, which we undertake to carry out. agreed to. We will present our findings and conclusions in a report which will be laid before Parliament. AMENDMENTS NOS. 11 AND 12 As to the scope of the review, as I have said, it will 11: Leave out Clause 12 look at the effectiveness of the legislation and of the industry’s arrangements for reuniting owners with their 12: Insert the following new Clause- accounts. It will not review FSA regulation of the “Review and report to Parliament reclaim fund’s management of money, which will ensure (1) The Treasury shall carry out a review of- that the reclaim fund keeps back sufficient money in (a) the operation of this Part, and reserve to meet reclaim applications; I do not think (b) the effectiveness of the efforts made by financial that noble Lords will think that appropriate. FSA institutions to secure that those entitled to money in regulation is a matter for the FSA and we expect the inactive accounts are made aware of the fact. regulator to make its own assessment of the effectiveness (2) In reviewing the operation of this Part the Treasury shall in of its regime. It is not for us to second-guess that particular consider- position or to add extra demands. (a) how many banks and building societies have transferred balances as mentioned in section 1(1) or 2(1); I hope that the House will appreciate that strong representations on this matter from both opposition (b) how much money has been transferred and how promptly; Front Benches, from many parts of House and from the other place have convinced the Government of the (c) how effective have been the arrangements for meeting claims made by virtue of section 1(2)(b) or 2(2)(b). merits of this proposal. I hope that the Government’s amendments will be supported. But the review shall not consider the activities of a reclaim fund in so far as they are regulated activities for the purposes of Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (c. 8). in their Amendments Nos. 11 and 12.—(Lord Davies (3) The Treasury shall make arrangements to enable anyone of Oldham.) with an interest in any aspect of the review to make representations, and shall consider all representations received. (4) The Treasury shall set out the results and conclusions of Baroness Noakes: My Lords, we shall not object to the review in a report and lay it before Parliament. Amendments Nos. 11 and 12, but I regret the (5) The report must be laid within three years from the date Government’s removal of the more extensive review ″ when a reclaim fund is first authorised. and report to Parliament that was contained in the Bill when it left your Lordships’ House and its replacement Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move by the new clause in Amendment No. 12. The Minister that the House do agree with the Commons in their described it as a comprehensive review, but it is less Amendments Nos. 11 and 12. comprehensive than that which we inserted into the We have listened to the arguments setting out the Bill. In particular, it does not look at the desirability importance of a review of the scheme to ensure that it and practicality of establishing similar schemes for is working and to take action if we identify any other categories of asset, which arose throughout our problems with its operation. We agree that it is right consideration of the Bill. That is to be regretted. that the Government return at an appropriate time to The original review and report would have been review whether the scheme is effective in delivering the triennial, which with the benefit of hindsight I think right outcomes to consumers, so we have made it clear was a fatal flaw in the formulation, but the three-year that we will undertake a post-implementation review review that we are offered instead is once-only.Somewhere when the scheme is up and running. between the two would have been a better outcome. We have listened carefully to the debates in both Nevertheless, it would have been open to the Houses and have been convinced that our doubts Government simply to strip out the review and not to about such a review should be set aside. We have have made any statutory provision for it, so we are brought forward a new clause to commit to a grateful that a statutory provision is reinstated in the comprehensive review, set out in legislation, and Bill. However, we regret that it did not go as far as the accountable to Parliament. This was the main burden review proposed by your Lordships’ House. 1179 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[LORDS] DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts 1180

Lord Newby: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister course, always wise enough after mature consideration for explaining the scheme. He explained what was in it, of all viewpoints holding sound weight to change their but he did not explain what it left out. As the noble mind, which they did with regard to this review. Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, it leaves out scope for The noble Lord, Lord Newby, wants me to extend being broadened to consider other categories of asset. this Bill to other financial assets, the insurance industry As we discussed in Committee, other schemes in other and so on. I can see the attractiveness of that, as here parts of the world cover many other categories of we have a scheme which, when it works, will bring asset. As my noble friend Lord Shutt has just pointed great benefits to the nation. The noble Lord wants to out to me, if the Britannia Building Society is taken see extra dormant resources channelled that way. I over in some manner by the Co-op, it might become applaud him for his ambition, but he will forgive me if an insurance company or a new, slightly unusual body, I emphasise the fact that the Government have to deal and it will not be immediately clear that it is covered with the here and now and with where we have agreement by the Act. That is unfortunate. with an important part of the financial industry to It is equally unfortunate that there will be only one make progress with the substantial resources, which review. However, it is better to have one review than to are not inconsiderable, in dormant accounts in banks have none, and it is better to have it covering the and building societies. There would be a whole range majority of the matters that we wanted it to do. With of complexity involved, if we extended this Bill to those caveats, I say that we will not oppose the amendment. other areas. Therefore, the noble Lord will just have to rein in his passions in the short term and, no doubt, will be fertile in managing to produce some ideas on The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, I share the this theme in future. regrets expressed that the new clause is in a number of respects weaker than that which it replaces. I shall not It has taken us considerable years of consultation, reiterate what has already been said by other noble analysis and building of consent with regard to this Lords. legislation. I hope that noble Lords will recognise that the Government are bound to be content to ensure The real concern for many of us here has been that this scheme is working well before we consider moral. So much of the debate here and in another other possibilities. The review will be a comprehensive place has focused on the various mechanisms for one that provides the framework in which to analyse distributing moneys in dormant accounts to a variety how the scheme is working against the objectives of of good causes, but the primary public policy objective the Bill. I am grateful for the support, although it was should be that moneys held in these accounts is reunited expressed somewhat reluctantly, of all noble Lords with their proper owners or heirs. Only once those who spoke. owners have been provided with both a simple mechanism and an appropriate timescale for recovering their lost On Question, Motion agreed to. assets should they be considered for distribution for other purposes. Many of us are still concerned about AMENDMENT NO. 13 whether such a mechanism and timescale as are proposed 13: Page 11, line 31, leave out subsection (2) in the amended Bill are sufficiently robust. In the view of many of us, the recent mylostaccount voluntary scheme needs significant improvements if it is to be truly effective. It is of course good that there is now Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move imposed on the Treasury a requirement for review and that the House do agree with the Commons in their report; it is encouraging to hear that the review will Amendment No. 13. look at the effectiveness of the industry reunification scheme and that the recommendations will be laid The government amendment inserted in Committee before Parliament. However, I am looking to tempt in the other place has the effect of removing what was, the Minister to give a slightly firmer affirmation that in this House, subsection (2) of Clause 23, which was the Government are committed to a thorough review inserted by noble Lords, against government opposition, of the workings of the Bill in this respect after three into the Government’s intended process for issuing years, and perhaps also in due to course to look again directions to the Big Lottery Fund. The effect of at the possibility of further reviews. subsection (2) was to require Parliament to agree, by affirmative resolution, to the directions issued to Big by the Secretary of State concerning operational matters, 6pm such as Big’s financial management, staffing and accounts; Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to and by the Secretary of State or the devolved all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I Administrations concerning the distribution of dormant notice that one verb—or noun—categorises everybody’s account funds. response; that is, “regret”. The noble Baroness, Lady As set out in the other place, the Government Noakes, showed her political judgment when she identified removed noble Lords’ subsection (2) because it would that the Government’s position in her terms was be inappropriate, given the devolution settlement. These significantly different from that which we adopted issues are so sensitive at the other end and there are when the Bill was last before the House—and, indeed, times when I feel that noble Lords may not always be it is. We took considerable persuasion on this matter, conscious of those matters at this end. The concept so while I note the regrets, on this occasion noble that Parliament and the Government would be involved Lords who have spoken may also feel that they have in scrutinising of aspects that relate to the devolved had some success in this area. The Government are, of Administrations’ powers is a matter of considerable 1181 DormantBank/BuildingSocietyAccounts[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Emergency Services 1182 concern. That is a prime reason why the Government generally on these matters, I pay tribute to the assiduous could not accept the structure of the Bill as produced work from both Front Benches, even including on this by this House in January. occasion—if the Conservative Party will forgive me—the We also rejected the requirement imposed by the Liberal Chief Whip, the noble Lord, Lord Shutt of former subsection (2) for parliamentary scrutiny of Greetland, who has been particularly assertive on this financial spending directions, given that it is customary Bill. for departments to issue financial directions of this On Question, Motion agreed to. sort to their non-departmental public bodies without parliamentary scrutiny. I ask the House to appreciate AMENDMENT NO. 14 just what might be the significance of all directions from government departments being subject to 14: Page 16, line 1, leave out subsection (2) parliamentary scrutiny of that kind, what an impossible task would be created for Parliament and what an Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, before dealing impossible task would be forced on government with the amendment, I mention that little tremor that departments. Yes, we can do that for policy in terms of always affects any of us at the Dispatch Box when we the allocation of funds, but the detailed direction have an amendment and no note at all of what it is implied in the original proposal could not be acceptable about. That moment of panic just descended. However, to the Government. I find that this is the privilege amendment, so I beg to However, we appreciated the concerns expressed in move that the House do agree with the Commons in this House that the Government should be open and their Amendment No. 14. transparent about their intentions with regard to the Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion issuing of English spending directions. In both Houses, agreed to. the Government have been clear about the cross- government process they have established for drawing AMENDMENTS NOS 15 TO 19 these up. We have listened to the points made by noble 15: Page 17, line 24, leave out “, the following information in Lords; the noble Lord, Lord Newby, was particularly relation to that year” emphatic on the point about the time delay between 16: Page 17, line 24, at end insert— directions being issued and Big publishing them in its “( ) its annual accounts and reports for that year (within the annual report. The Government have confirmed that meaning given by section 471 of the Companies Big will publish the spending directions on its website Act 2006 (c. 46));” on the point of issue. I believe that this produces the 17: Page 17, line 26, after “fund” insert “in that year” necessary transparency and underscores the Government’s 18: Page 17, line 28, after “fund” insert “in that year” commitment to this objective. 19: Page 17, line 31, after “transferred” insert “in that year” Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 13.—(Lord Davies of Oldham.) Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I have another minor Amendments Nos. 15 to 19. expression of regret that these subsections are being Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion removed, but I recognise that the devolution card agreed to. trumps all others in your Lordships’ House. Therefore, it would be wise not to row against that. I record our gratitude for the Minister’s undertaking to place the Emergency Services directions on Big’s website, as that will at least give some earlier sight of those directions and allow issues 6.10 pm to be raised in Parliament, if there were any of concern. Lord Harrison asked Her Majesty’s Government Lord Newby: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister what steps they are taking to encourage the co-ordination for his assurance about the publication of directions of fire safety and emergency services across the European on the Big website. As he reminded the House, my Union. concern was that the original thought was that directions The noble Lord said: My Lords, this summer I would be reported only in an annual report, which visited Slavutych, the town in the Ukraine built to might mean in reality that you would not know until replace Chernobyl following the 1986 nuclear explosion. 15 months after the directions had been issued, which As I entered the small, commemorative museum, my seemed to me inappropriate. Given the subject matter eyes fell immediately on the photographs of those who covered by the Bill, these are intensely political areas. arrived first on the scene and perished at Chernobyl—the Therefore, it is very important that people should have brave men and women of the fire and rescue services. the ability to know that directions have been given that Chernobyl affected not only neighbouring Belarus change the balance of funding and of priorities that and Russia but also the rest of Europe. Still today in Big is expected to follow in respect of these moneys Chester I look out on the north Wales peaks whose from the reclaim fund. I welcome the Minister’s market in sheep meat remains tightly controlled. We reassurance and will not be opposing the amendments. are still one Europe and one world when manmade and environmental disasters strike and, because accidents Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to happen increasingly across national borders, our response both noble Lords. As this is probably the last time, must equally be transnational. This is the subject of with any good fortune, that I shall be speaking more tonight’s debate. 1183 Emergency Services[LORDS] Emergency Services 1184

[LORD HARRISON] the single market of common and verifiable standards These threats are not diminishing, as quickening of competency among those who practise in the fire climate change accelerates the incidence of environmental and rescue services sector. disasters that devastate local communities—searing The lack of a fire sector skills council in the United heat waves in France, severe snowfalls in Germany, Kingdom and common examinations reviewing civil floods in Britain, landslips in Italy and wild fires in emergency skills likewise hampers us. I ask my noble Greece and Spain. There are still acts of terrorism—as friend to address these national deficiencies, because in London, Madrid and Paris—or failures of technologies, they impact on the European stage. European Union as with the Buncefield disaster that startled my noble social law must not inadvertently undermine our domestic friend Lord Brookman from his bed the morning it fire and rescue services. happened, and fires in tunnels through the Alps and To create sensible EU law and practice we must under the Channel. have accurate statistical data in Britain. We are proficient At home, the recent NAO report on the £330 million at the national data, but our EU partners are not, nor programme for the fire and rescue services points to are these data properly standardised. Thus, in the successes such as the response to Buncefield, but also United Kingdom, we record delayed deaths subsequently to failures, such as in procurement and management, reported from an earlier emergency incident, whereas all pointing to the need for a UK fire lord or tsar. in Europe that does not happen. In the European Union, these deaths are recorded locally, not nationally However, the EU is our concern tonight. It, too, as in our case. An example of this is that the EU lacks recognition of the pivotal roles of the fire and legislative proposal for substituting reduced ignition rescue services in protecting communities throughout propensity cigarettes for existing slow burn will need Europe. The European Commission and the member sound and comprehensive data across the European states are not talking properly to each other, certainly Union to convince us that the unwanted deaths from not on a structured or professional basis—a victim smouldering stubs can be stamped out. Will my noble perhaps of a short-sighted interpretation of subsidiarity. friend encourage the collection of good and Similarly, the Commission’s silo approach to these comprehensive data across the European Union? cross-cutting issues inhibits a co-ordinated response. I now turn to the Government’s lukewarm response We need a clear and single point of entry into the to the French President’s proposal for an EU civil Commission to provide an observatory and a data- protection rapid reaction force. The Commission has collecting point. We also need to co-ordinate trans- already provided use of EU funds to transport firefighters European emergencies and we need member states to to EU disaster hot spots or to pay for aerial water help one another. What can my noble friend do to bombers dowsing wild fires across national boundaries. advance that? Indeed, the United Kingdom has received a grant of This problem is further exacerbated by the mosaic £180 million to compensate for the disastrous floods of the different member states’ organisation of their in 2007. However, the UK is not actively engaged in fire and rescue services. In the UK, oddly, FRS is dealt the rapid reaction force proposal, where the British with by the emergency medical services, whereas France firefighters can help abroad. Our view that Britain will and Germany do their health through the emergency never need others’ help is daft. Pooling EU resources services themselves. Sweden and Bulgaria have national and humanitarian aid at times of national disasters is agencies, whereas Britain remains local; consequently, sensible and sound. The UK should get involved in the our local services know too little of EU developments Barnier proposal now if for no other reason than and therefore fail to give the British view in Brussels. protecting the many Britons who visit, work and live across the European Union. Does my noble friend recognise a departmental We should promote the civil protection force and confusion in the United Kingdom? EU FRS matters ensure good liaison with the developments within are dealt with by the Cabinet Office. This bypasses NATO, too. Likewise, the deplorable incidence of her own Department for Communities and Local hotel fires abroad leading to family tragedies at home Government, which is surely better placed to canvass is allowed because we have a disparate set of 27 laws competent local authorities on EU fire and rescue applying to hotel safety. This mosaic of law must cede service issues and thus improve the European Union to a sensible EU directive. It will help us all to sleep legislative proposals, standards and practices. At present, better in our beds at night, whether in Corfu or in the firefighter’s voice is second-hand and so second Carshalton. rate. Britain’s viewpoint on these matters is missing from The lack of a fire lord or a fire tsar also impairs our the EU Fire Safety Network, an organisation funded response to European Union social legislation, which by the EU civil protection unit, which is based in the affects the fire and rescue services in Britain. The Brussels environmental directorate. I am told that dismantling of the British opt-outs in the working Britain’s CLG-nominated fire resilience representative time directives will scupper the use of part-time employees attends only intermittently, with inadequate and infrequent in Britain. Ironically, in protecting our workers we reports back. Will my noble friend tell the House how may lose the right to exceed working time hours as such cross-cutting issues that affect DBERR, the appropriate and negotiated by workers through collective Department for Work and Pensions, the Cabinet Office agreements. Indeed, I note that the driving hours and the Department for Transport will be properly directive has already dried up the availability of part-time communicated in Whitehall? We cannot do that if we drivers used in the service. With the free movement of are absent from Brussels. The safety of British families workers across Europe, we must have certainty throughout and businesses is not helped by snubbing Brussels. 1185 Emergency Services[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Emergency Services 1186

If Britain does not speak up, British trade and advised that there is no certain or professional relationship industry are vulnerable to the misapplication of EU between the EC and member state Governments on laws in the field of fire and rescue services. The fire and rescue services. Perhaps the Minister will construction products directive requiring the use of address this point when she sums up. the CE mark is not systematically monitored in Britain, The Government work closely with the Federation because of the lack of resources in local government of British Fire Organisations. FOBFO wants to strengthen trading standards. This means that British export firms that relationship. In this respect, FOBFO strongly are poorly advised on relevant EU law governing the states that its vital focus is in recognising the importance circulation of their goods and services within the of the European Union as both a trading and a social single market. The REACH chemical regulation, with partner and the impact that this has on the fire and significant cost implications for the fire sector companies, rescue services. I sincerely hope that the Government are added to the already strict UK hazardous substance do all that they can to assist. control regimes, with sparse assessment of the cost to related industries. The EU services directive remains 6.25 pm similarly unexamined. Nor is the understanding of single market codes and standards promoted by the Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, I sometimes wonder self-financing approach to the BSI. We need something why I am here—on this occasion mainly because my more hard-headed and designed for the entrepreneurs noble friend Lord Harrison has said just about everything to brief themselves in order to succeed. that needs to be said on this subject. There is little that In conclusion, I hope that we understand the necessity I can add, apart from “Hurrah!” or something. of spreading our concern at the time of these disasters I felt inclined to contribute to this brief—and I wider than the United Kingdom for the protection of shall be brief, let me tell you—debate because, as older our people, not only here in Britain but also in the Members of the House may recall, and there are not European Union. I thank Dennis Davis, my colleague too many here, I have spent a lifetime in the construction from Chester and the former chief fire officer of industry. That industry of course finds fire safety and Cheshire, and his associates. Not only has he worked things of that sort extremely important. I remind my hard for many years to raise these issues at the European noble friend Lord Brookman that when he was a level, but he has helped in the preparation of the young man I was involved in the steel industry, too. I debate this evening, which I bring to the attention of worked in a town called Motherwell—not a spa but a the House. big steel concern. I was a structural engineer in the 1940s. The Dalzell 6.22 pm steelworks were built on made-up ground, much of which had come from ironworks slag from the nearby Lord Brookman: My Lords, I first declare an interest Clyde Bridge. Interestingly, it formed a pretty good as an officer of the All-Party Fire Safety and Rescue foundation for a steelworks apart from one flaw: it was Group. My noble friend Lord Harrison, a colleague given to spontaneous combustion. The foundations and friend, is to be congratulated. It is appropriate under the steelworks would therefore catch fire from and worth while to have this debate. Frankly, I only time to time. We applied a high-tech solution to this wish that there were more participants making a problem: we hurried along and filled up the hole under contribution. the foundations, where the fire was burning, with I congratulate all our firefighters and emergency concrete. The fire would go out. We solved the problem; workers in the United Kingdom. Their dedication, it was not too high-tech, but it seemed to work. I have bravery and service to our nation are indeed immense. therefore always had an interest in the relationship Their heroism, commitment and sense of duty at between the construction industry and fire. King’s Cross, for example, and, as my noble friend As we all do, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Lord Harrison said, at Buncefield in Hertfordshire, as Harrison on raising this subject. I thought that his well as recently with the shuttle train—the third such opening remarks were a little apocalyptic. He drew incident in the past 12 years—are of the highest order. our attention to Chernobyl. Now, we all know that We are deeply proud of them all. Chernobyl was not a very good idea. However, as the The all-party group works closely with the Federation noble Lord, Lord Taverne—a good personal friend of of British Fire Organisations, which will be taking a mine, although he sits on the opposite Benches for keen interest in the debate. Its concerns are my concerns. some idiosyncratic reason of his own—pointed out, I am not talking of weakness or governmental inactivity. the Chernobyl disaster was never as bad as people and The question is whether the management of safety can the press continually say. It is like Three Mile Island. be more effective. Nothing happened there either, but the press go on My noble friend Lord Harrison has covered much about it. of what needs to be said in his wide-ranging, clever Leaving the apocalypse aside, all that I have to say and well understood speech. Is there a need for wider is that I endorse everything that my noble friend has participation between government, fire rescue authorities, said. Were it not for vanity, I would now sit down—but and public and private bodies and enterprises? If so, I shall not just yet. I add a remark that has been how can it be achieved with a European dimension? provided for me by the Federation of British Fire I do not profess to be an expert in the fire and Organisations, to which my noble friend Lord Brookman rescue field in the United Kingdom or across Europe— alluded. It pointed out that last November a new era although, when I was a steelworker in south Wales, of European Community solidarity began to emerge. danger and death were never far away. However, I am The Commission held a civil protection forum to 1187 Emergency Services[LORDS] Emergency Services 1188

[LORD HOWIE OF TROON] stage we could recognise issues which were not necessarily emphasise the renewed vigour that it feels is needed to about policing but might well be of concern to it. That address the unprecedented demands of EC citizens must have exactly the same relevance to fire and rescue facing natural, economic and technological disasters. services. I am somewhat tepid in my admiration for the We should not assume, therefore, that simply because European Union. I have swung from opposition to authorities have good contacts and good relations support to tepidity, if that is a word. It is a funny kind across Europe they necessarily know what is happening of organisation. When it is at its best—and it is by no in the European Commission, the Parliament and the means always at its best—it means that if we do not other organisations, still less that they are equipped pull together, we sink together. Sinking together does and informed to intervene at an early stage when the not seem to me a very good idea if pulling together policy is being formulated, not at the much later stage will save us from sinking together. So I endorse everything when, realistically, all that is happening are negotiations that my noble friend said. I hope that I have not kept about the finer points to try to reach agreement. noble Lords for too long from their dinner. Therefore, my first question to the Minister—I am sure that she will address this—is what mechanisms 6.31 pm there are within the Department for Communities and Local Government to look at fire and safety issues Lord Tope: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I am from an EU perspective. I am very aware from my extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, 15 to 20 years’ experience of how her department for initiating the debate, and to the Federation of deals with European issues generally—it generally does British Fire Organisations for raising these extremely so very well—but here we are talking about fire and important issues with us through its briefing. It is rescue services specifically. In addition, as the noble some 10 years since I was a member of a fire authority Lord, Lord Harrison, said, these are cross-departmental and I certainly do not claim any special or particular matters within the UK Government, much of the knowledge of fire safety issues. However, I recognised responsibility for which rests with the Cabinet Office many of the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, rather than with CLG. My subsidiary question is: raised. I have some 15 years’ experience in local and what are the mechanisms within the UK Government regional government in the European Union and am for effective co-ordination and liaison on these issues therefore very familiar, not particularly with fire issues, in the EU context, and how effective is that mechanism? but with other issues concerning the different structures and systems in member states, and the difficulties that I was concerned to read in the Federation of British that sometimes causes in achieving mutual understanding Fire Organisations’ briefing: and reaching agreement on how best to approach “Fire and Rescue Authorities are rarely advised or able to these matters. influence EC developments affecting the Fire and Rescue Services”. I spent eight years, until last May, as a member of That chimes exactly with what I was saying about my the Greater London Authority, of which the London experience with the Metropolitan Police Service. I Fire and Emergency Planning Authority is a part. must ask CLG, which is responsible for fire authorities However, my role, for eight years, was that of chair of in this country, what steps it is taking, and will take, to the finance committee of the Metropolitan Police ensure that fire and rescue services and fire authorities Authority; therefore, I am very familiar with the sort are advised and are able at an early stage to influence of issues that we are discussing. My experience relates EC developments, probably through feedback to CLG to the Metropolitan Police Service, although I think or to the Cabinet Office through central government. that it is relevant to the fire service as well. The Central government need that input, knowledge, Metropolitan Police Service has very good international experience and thought from the fire services. With links. It has many contacts worldwide, particularly in regard to the Metropolitan Police Service, I cannot, Europe. It generally has a good relationship with unfortunately, remember the specific instance about Europe, with which it generally works well on operational which the commissioner spoke to me, but it had discovered issues. However, I found that an organisation as large, a measure which was about to be agreed by the European well equipped and well organised as the Metropolitan Commission which would have a very substantial impact Police Service still had remarkably little understanding in operational and financial terms on the police service, of how the European Union works and of how to but it was too late to do anything about it. That is the influence the decision-making process at the right key question. The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, laid out stage, not when it is too late and something is being very well the difficulties involved here with different done to it. For an organisation with an annual budget structures in the different member states and, indeed, of some £3 billion, it had little awareness of the with the range of responsibilities across various opportunities—albeit now limited—for gaining funding departments of the UK Government. This is a challenge, from the European Union. We set up an EU oversight but I hope the Minister will be able to reassure us that group, which I chaired, but whose membership otherwise the UK Government, perhaps led by her department, comprised senior officers from the police service and are able to meet and rise to that challenge. the police authority, specifically to look—given that I We live in an age where free movement throughout chaired the finance committee—at opportunities to the European Union, whether for work or leisure, is a raise funding. However, another objective—this was growing reality. I am the last person to call for greater probably more important—was to look at the policy regulation. Indeed, I spend much of my time calling developments that were coming through the processes for less regulation rather than more. I am a passionate of the European Union, whether through the Parliament believer in subsidiarity. Therefore, I do not call for the or, more usually, the Commission, so that at an early European Union to take over fire and rescue services—far 1189 Emergency Services[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Emergency Services 1190 from it. I welcome the cultural diversity that we have, is needed to provide appropriate cover. We are very but we need to be able to deal effectively with the fortunate in this country to be able to enjoy the results of that diversity and to recognise that people services of a large number of volunteers who cover are moving around the European Union member states great areas of the country. freely and that they deserve proper protection and Sometimes, paradoxically, volunteers have greater effective liaison to bring that about. experience of firefighting than their professional brethren, I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for who, if they are fortunate, may have a shift pattern raising these important issues and look forward to the which inadvertently means that they might not attend reassurance from the Minister that, I am sure, we are a fire for a year or more; whereas part-time firemen, about to get. apart from doing some weekend practice, attend only when there is a fire. There is a slightly strange situation 6.39 pm whereby sometimes the amateur, as you might put it, is more experienced than the professional. However, all Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, like the noble Lord, their work is wholly admirable. Lord Tope, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord There needs to be a European information exchange Harrison, for bringing this debate before us, although facility. The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, mentioned I must admit that he raced through his speech at such that each nation had its own safety regulations for a pace that I was not quite sure whether he had a hotels. However, given the volume of travel that we all strategic point to aim for. He seemed to say that undertake nowadays, it would be reassuring to know everyone was doing a lot of good work and that that there was at least some parallel organisation that everyone was doing some things wrong. However, that was, in looking at this matter, disseminating best is a naturally human state. practice—not just in fire regulation, but in equipment, Our ancient forebears regarded fire as one of the communications and all those other things. four great forces of nature and believed that, if fire So much can be done above the national level, but it was out of control, it was really dreadful. I learned to is not simply a European problem. We do not have the respect that point of view in my younger days, when I only valid sources of information; this is an international used to burn every field of straw on my farm myself. problem. To be fair, I know that a considerable exchange That was 10 days of hard work, at your peril—although of information already goes on, but there is no formal it could be done with safety. We need always to bear in structure. Perhaps it would be better if the situation mind that fire, which we regard as a tool and a friend, were better recognised, so that information was more will break out if you give it half a chance. That is, of freely available across national boundaries. course, when our fire and rescue services come to the fore. I add my tribute to those very brave men. When all is said and done, we will still have a service of brave people who so often come to rescue us from There was criticism from the fire service that perhaps mistakes that we have made. Perhaps we have accidentally the reason the service was so dangerous because of the left something switched on at night or fallen asleep wretched business of risk assessment, which is difficult while smoking in bed. Perish the thought, but that is when you have a big fire. You may think that you have not unknown. These things lead to tragedies. We can all the knowledge about the contents of a building and have the most wonderful service in the world and its construction. If the fire is out in the open, you have people who will give their lives for us if they have a different set of parameters to deal with. However, to—and they do—but if we ourselves are not careful fire makes its own rules and we have to face the fact and sensible, we deserve all the trouble that we get that every now and again we will have a tragedy. into. The Fire Brigades Union told us of the very sad rise There is, therefore, another level of responsibility in in the number of deaths in the fire service in recent all of this, which I hope the noble Baroness will touch years, after a period in which it suffered no deaths. on: personal responsibility. That is where this particular Have the Government any statistics on the number of area of safety begins. If we do not get that bit right, fires over the same period, which began in 2003? It there is nothing that anyone else can do to help us. could be that the number of tragedies per fire is miniscule; however, to the person involved, it is 100 per cent. We need to recognise that and do everything we 6.47 pm can to reduce the risk to the absolute minimum—but we cannot remove it. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The second issue is that the debate is aimed towards—I Department for Communities and Local Government will not say at—the European Union. If I understand (Baroness Andrews): My Lords, I am very grateful to the situation correctly, fire prevention, the fire services, my noble friend Lord Harrison for initiating such an safety and so on, is not, in fact, a European competence, important debate. The contributions around the House it is a national competence—and rightly so. In this have been a tribute to the wide-ranging issues that he country, we have made it even a local competence. raised, as well as demonstrating our very different That also has to be appropriate, because it is only at a experiences across the House. Although the House local level that you can make a reasonable assessment may not be full, there is absolutely no question that of the risks in a community. It is no good having a every Member would take an interest in the role of the wonderful ivory tower in the middle of London and fire services. trying to tell people in Hartlepool, Liverpool, Bristol One of the most impressive things that I had the or Southampton or in our rural communities what privilege of doing this year was attending the official their level of fire risk is. A much more local organisation opening of the National Fire Service memorial by Her 1191 Emergency Services[LORDS] Emergency Services 1192

[BARONESS ANDREWS] co-ordinates assistance and provides prompt support Royal Highness, Princess Anne. I had the privilege of and assistance to any country inside and outside the speaking to some of the families whose loved ones, as European Union that requires help. It became operational firefighters, very sadly had died this year. That brought in 2002 and, since then, has been activated for a home to me at a very personal level the personal number of disasters within Europe and around the contribution and price paid in the most difficult world. Three examples are the 2004 tsunami in south-east circumstances. I certainly join every noble Lord who Asia, the 2005 forest fires in Portugal and the 2005 has spoken on the extraordinary contribution that our floods in Bulgaria and Romania. Those were three firefighters make, not just to keeping our communities very different but dreadful cases where our help was safe, but—we must not forget, as my noble friend needed. reminded me—to the added benefits that they bring to A further element of the mechanism is the training the communities that they serve and the extraordinary programme, which is designed to prepare national efforts that they make to become involved in them, responders for international deployment, the co-ordination especially regarding young people in schools and so of a disaster response and the assessment of disaster on by informing and supporting the work of the areas. As of 11 July, the UK has had 11 deployable community. personnel, eight of whom are part of the fire and This is an extremely important debate, for many rescue service. We expect to have 20 fully trained different reasons. Although we have been focusing on personnel for deployment by the summer of 2009. Europe, other issues have been raised by noble Lords, To pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord which I shall try to address. I shall certainly write to Tope, we have also exerted considerable influence. We noble Lords if I cannot. I am very grateful to my noble have played key roles in recent exercises to ensure that friend for giving me advance warning of some very the EU is prepared to deal with major disasters and wide-ranging and technical questions, which I hope to incidents. These have included: exercise EULUX 2007 be able to address towards the end of my response. in Luxembourg, which simulated a conventional chemical This has, indeed, been a wide-ranging debate, and it and radiological attack; exercise EUPOLEX 2005 in has provided me with an opportunity to talk about Poland, which tested the Community’s ability to respond what Her Majesty’s Government are doing to encourage effectively to a major incident requiring assistance the co-ordination of fire safety and emergency services. from member and non-member countries; and exercise That is something about which my noble friend is EUROSOT 2005 in Italy, which simulated a scenario particularly concerned and it is an ambitious theme. I based on an earthquake. That gives an idea of how, in want to set out what we are doing, primarily in working a very practical way, we are bringing our experience with our partners in Europe, to reduce accidental fires into play. in the home and non-domestic premises. I was very The Government have invested £300 million, through interested in the two examples given by my noble the New Dimension project, to enhance the capacity friends Lord Brookman and Lord Howie of Troon. of fire and rescue services to deal rapidly and effectively Together with Buncefield, they illustrated two very with terrorist and other large-scale catastrophic incidents. different professional experiences and showed some of Part of my response to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, the genuinely catastrophic implications of accidental concerns the investment that the Department for fires. That was a very useful perspective. With our Communities and Local Government makes as part of European partners, we are trying to prepare properly our wider £1 billion fire and resilience programme. to deal with emergencies, including with cross-border These specialist New Dimension assets have been delivered co-operation. to ensure that the fire and rescue service is prepared to I reassure my noble friend that I would not dream respond to national incidents. However, in the event of of pretending that I know as much as he does about an EU or international disaster, the Government would the work that is done in Europe or by the fire service. I obviously want to deploy this capability abroad to want to try to bring together what we know is happening, assist where it was able to do so. and that will illustrate how this Government and the I turn to the specific steps that the Government are Department for Communities and Local Government taking to encourage other forms of leadership in the are at the forefront of many EU work streams to UK and the co-ordination of specific fire-safety issues co-ordinate fire and rescue services and emergency across the European Union. This is an area where my response work across Europe. noble friend has played an absolutely key role. UK fire I think that my noble friend called for a fire tsar. It statistics show that smoking products cause the greatest is some time since we heard the call for a tsar, so my number of accidental fire deaths in the home. Taking noble friend has brought about the welcome return of up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, this mythical figure. In fact, we have a tsar in the very this is of course a very acute example of where personal experienced Sir Ken Knight, our Chief Fire and Rescue responsibility comes in. In 2006, 3,168 accidental dwelling Adviser, who is more of a knight than a tsar. I have got fires in the UK—an extraordinary figure—were started to know him and have accompanied him on the odd by smoking products, killing 96 and injuring 1,146. occasion, and I have been incredibly impressed by the My noble friend Lord Harrison knows that the esteem in which he is held throughout the fire service. I Government have been instrumental in encouraging do not think that we could have better advice. the European Commission to look into the case for ImoveontothewaythatweworkinEurope,in creating a European standard for fire-safer cigarettes— particular. The UK is a member of the EU’s civil cigarettes that are designed to self-extinguish if left protection mechanism, which is crucial. The mechanism unattended, rather than smoulder down and set things 1193 Emergency Services[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Emergency Services 1194 alight. We have watched with interest developments tie into a celebration of 20 years since the introduction on this in other countries—in particular, the US and of regulations on fire safety in furnishings, which Canada. In October 2005, Canada became the first BERR will be launching jointly with CLG on country to implement a cigarette fire-safety standard. 25 November. That is yet another example of joined-up Assessments that have been carried out since then on government. We are assiduous in this work and as the basis of the Canadian methodology suggest that officials now know that the eye of my noble friend is we would have had 2,116 fewer fires if such cigarettes on them, they will be even more assiduous. had been available. Therefore, these fire-safer cigarettes I will not go into our strategies in the UK in great work. detail, except to say that our key strategy is to drive Since my noble friend and I debated this matter in down preventable deaths. We have proactive community October 2007, the European Union has voted fire safety activities. We have a very good record, overwhelmingly to create such a standard, and I am particularly in the penetration of smoke alarms; the very glad to bring the House up to date about that. By 80 per cent smoke alarm ownership is a tremendous establishing a European standard for fire-safer cigarettes, achievement. Of course, we still need to reach 20 per manufacturers will be compelled by law to produce cent of households which are not yet covered. Effective cigarettes that meet the EU standard. The Government fire safety standards extend well beyond the home and continue to be at the forefront in pushing this process we want to ensure that all UK premises are as safe as forward. We expect work on developing the standard possible. Prior to October 2006, there were more than to commence late this year, and it will probably take 70 separate pieces of fire safety legislation in England about two years to complete. and the fire safety order brought all fire safety legislation We also learn from the experiences of other countries. together in one place, simplifying the framework. That The UK is one of the founding members of the has been a progressive step forward. European Fire Safety Network, which was set up in The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, asked about 2004 with the support and welcome of the Commission’s deaths among firefighters. Every single death of a Civil Protection Unit, the committee for the action firefighter is a tragedy. Thankfully, the number of programme and the Community mechanism in the fatalities still remains very low and injuries are steadily field of civil protection under the aegis of the civil falling. Our data show that the number of deaths protection committee. In response to the noble Lord, while on operational duty over the past 20 years Lord Tope, about the role of the CLG, in relation to averages less than two per annum. There has been no fire-safer cigarettes, our officials in that department fatality in England in the past 12 months, which is led very much from the front. Sir Ken Knight was also positive. Obviously, we can improve the situation with involved in that work. a whole range of measures. The European Fire Safety Network currently includes representatives from national authorities in 23 EU I turn to the specific issues raised by my noble states which are competent in fire prevention matters. friend. I recognise and agree with my noble friend The idea is to exchange knowledge and foster co-operation Lord Harrison that fire and rescue services have a between nations to help to improve fire safety. Here, distinctive and pivotal role. He questioned co-ordination perhaps I should mention some fire statistics. With the mechanisms and criticised their absence. I believe that other members of the forum, we have achieved consensus we have a strong co-ordinating mechanism within the on issues such as support for the development of EU. In fulfilling its monitoring and information-sharing fire-safer cigarettes and the need for better fire statistics. function during disasters within and outside the EU, I hope that that reinforces the point made by the noble the Commission’s Monitoring and Information Centre Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith. At the UK’s suggestion, the acts as the single point of contact for member states. network has agreed to consider the use of fire statistics The Monitoring and Information Centre can also be across Europe. It will look at what members of the valuable as an entry point to the Commission’s various forum gather by way of fire information and what director-generals at times other than during disasters. comparisons this enables, what gaps exist and how this My noble friend was critical of cross-government might be improved. I believe that real progress is being arrangements, but within the UK we have the Civil made there. We are liaising, for example, with the Contingencies Secretariat at the Cabinet Office, which Federation of the European Union Fire Officer is the most appropriate department to represent the Associations, Eurostat, the European Fire Academy Government on fire and rescue services in relation to and so on. This is a major undertaking, which is very the EU because of its strategic responsibility and the progressive. perception it brings. I think that is absolutely justified. In conjunction with colleagues from the Government CLG works closely with the Civil Contingencies of Estonia, we have offered to collate information Secretariat, sharing and disseminating information on from EU members to produce an overview of the EU matters. Most of the civil protection debate at EU situation, with recommendations for how that could level is on the principles of international mutual aid be improved to promote the better use of statistics and how that might be enhanced across all aspects of across Europe. However, the EU itself would need to the civil protection agenda. There is little or no detailed take the lead in how the statistics would be collated. discussion on practical fire and rescue service issues My noble friend raised some questions about the which tend to occur in any other forum where the Civil extent to which CLG attended meetings. My advice is Contingencies Secretariat is not involved. that it has certainly attended many meetings on European I turn to my noble friend’s remarks about the issues in recent years. I can advise him that the UK impact of the working time directive and the driving-hours will also be hosting the next meeting of the network to directive on the UK fire and rescue service. Dealing 1195 Emergency Services[LORDS] Climate Change Bill [HL] 1196

[BARONESS ANDREWS] to enhance civil protection in the EU. The first pillar first with the working time directive, we are clear that civil protection mechanism has been amended to allow losing the UK’s opt-out could have a major impact on limited financial assistance towards the cost of the fire and rescue service. There is no question of transporting civilian response from a donor country dismantling the opt-out. The UK’s position remains to one affected by disaster, including aerial water unchanged. We remain committed to keeping the opt-out. bombers to be used in wildfire situations. I should perhaps explain that the UK’s position was On the proposals made in the Barnier report, the agreed by the Council of Ministers in June. Officials UK’s position is clear. HMG support the principle of from my department are working closely with BERR member states co-operating voluntarily in the response and the Cabinet Office to ensure MEPs and other to disasters, but not the creation of a stand-by European member states are fully briefed on the UK’s position. civil protection force. That is consistent with our general The position on the driving hours directive is that attitude to how we see European co-operation working the Chief Fire Officers Association is currently surveying best. A European civil protection force would not be a all fire and rescue services to enable the potential cost-effective way of responding. The current voluntary impact of the drivers’ hours rules on the retained-duty approach, which allows member states to provide urgent system and their ability to provide appropriate emergency assistance bilaterally, offers more flexibility and better cover to our rural communities to be assessed. value for money. My noble friend has also expressed concern that the My noble friend also mentioned hotel safety and encouragement of cross-border movement of labour the fact that it is not regulated. Our position on this creates employment complications within the fire sector matter is quite clear. We recognise that while there is as there are currently no agreed EC standards of considerable support for any initiative aimed at achieving competency. I am pleased to say that a considerable a more consistent standard of fire safety in hotels amount of work is being undertaken by various groups across Europe, there is no consensus on a need to within the EU to work towards the harmonisation of replace the EC recommendation with any European fire and rescue service functions and recognition of law. professional qualifications between member states. The Finally, on trade, we have the construction products Fire and Rescue Sector Vocational Standards Group directive. Rather than read my quite detailed response is considering aligning the current firefighters’ national to the specific issues raised on trade, I shall write to my qualifications framework with the European qualifications noble friend. framework and will consider wider work from across We gladly recognise the contribution made by the the EU as part of the process. UK fire trade to the fire safety agenda. I think we are It is the Government’s policy that the existing 25 sector playing a positive and successful role in Europe. I am skills councils should cover the UK workforce. The very grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to fire sector is too small to justify its own sector skills explore some of those issues. It has been a most useful council but the Fire and Rescue Sector Vocational debate. Standards Group is currently discussing sector skills council membership with the Skills for Justice sector Energy Bill skills council. So there is a recognition that there can be more synergy. The UK Fire and Rescue Sector The Bill was returned from the Commons with the Vocational Standards Group is considering aligning amendments agreed to with an amendment. It was the current firefighters’ national qualifications framework ordered that the Commons amendment be printed. with the European qualifications framework. Climate Change Bill [HL] My noble friend described a civil protection rapid reaction force, whose creation has been called for by The Bill was returned from the Commons with the Michel Barnier, as rather lukewarm. The Commission amendments agreed to. and member states generally have supported measures House adjourned at 7.09 pm. WS 87 Written Statements[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Statements WS 88

as tourist attractions. UK concerns about the added Written Statements value of a European heritage label have largely been addressed in discussions at official level. The draft Wednesday 19 November 2008 conclusions are now broadly acceptable and the scheme is to be voluntary, which will allow the UK to decide ECOFIN on the extent of any future participation. The council is expected to adopt the conclusions and the Government intend to endorse this course of action. The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): My honourable friend the Economic The presidency will seek adoption of the conclusions Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson) has made the on architecture as part of culture’s contribution to following Written Ministerial Statement. sustainable development. The conclusions recognise I will attend the budget ECOFIN to be held on the important integrating role of architecture, which 21 November in Brussels. Items on the agenda are as involves cultural creation and technology, in implementing follows: sustainable development. They suggest various means by which the European Commission and member Preliminary Draft Amending Budgets Nos. 10 and 11 states can promote architecture’s role in sustainable for 2008 development. The conclusions have been considered Finance Ministers will be invited to adopt preliminary and welcomed by the European Forum for Architecture draft amending budgets 10 and 11. These would amend Policies. The aims of the conclusions are in line with the 2008 budget to reflect latest implementation capacity the UK’s approach to architecture, sustainable design and mobilise the EU solidarity fund for Cyprus following and built environment education. The Government the recent drought there. intend to support the adoption of these conclusions. Letters of Amendment Nos. 2 and 3 to the Preliminary Draft Budget for 2009 The council will then be invited to adopt conclusions on the promotion of cultural diversity and intercultural Finance Ministers will be invited to discuss the dialogue in external relations. These conclusions encourage Commission’s amending letters 2 and 3 to the preliminary member states to strengthen the role of culture in draft budget for 2009. Amending letter 2 reflects latest broader programmes; to enter into discussion with information on agricultural prices and other developments third countries about legal frameworks on cultural influencing future implementation capacity, and proposes policies; to promote cultural diversity and the economic financing for a food facility for developing countries benefits of cultural activities; and to strengthen the from the agriculture expenditure budget heading. role of culture in sustainable development. They also Amending letter 3 concerns a budgetary transfer to encourage the exchange of best practice on cultural cover the costs of a new reflection group as called for issues; the mobility of artists, especially young people; by the October European Council. the protection of copyright matters; and the protection Draft Budget for 2009 and preservation of cultural heritage and goods. The The council will look to agree its second reading UK believes that these conclusions adequately address position on the draft budget in preparation for the cultural property issues. The Government intend to subsequent conciliation with the European Parliament. support the adoption of these conclusions. Council will then conclude its second reading and finalise figures for compulsory expenditure (mainly There will be an exchange of views on Section 4 of agriculture). The UK will seek a budget that respects the draft resolution on multilingualism. This section the principles of budget discipline and sound financial of the resolution suggests ways in which translation management and reflects realistic forecasts for agriculture issues might be better addressed, with a focus on and structural funds spending. delivering cultural goals. These include improvements in conditions for translation of texts and publishing issues; reinforcing the role of cinema and audio-visual EU: Education, Youth and Culture Council works in promoting language diversity; improving accessibility of performing arts to a wider audience; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for and improving training in translation skills. The UK Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord supports the focus on culture in translation issues and Carter of Barnes): My honourable friend the Minister the focus on young people as proposed in Section 4 of for Culture, Creative Industries and Tourism (Barbara the draft resolution. The UK welcomes the proposed Follett) has made the following Written Ministerial debate on the issue. The Government will intervene on Statement. this item to express their support for multilingualism. The full text of the resolution is expected to be adopted The Education, Youth and Culture Council will be during the education section of the council. held on 20 and 21 November in Brussels. Alun Ffred Jones, Minister for Heritage for Wales, will be representing The presidency will seek the adoption of conclusions the UK on the morning of 20 November when culture on the creation of a European digital library, known and audio-visual issues will be taken. Education issues as Europeana. There will also be a launch event that will be taken on 21 November. day at the Royal Library of Belgium. Europeana is an The first item on the agenda is the conclusions on online common multilingual access point to European the European heritage label. The purpose of this initiative digital cultural material including books, newspapers, is to highlight sites and monuments that have played a photographs, films, archival documents and archaeological key role in European history and to raise their profile heritage. The conclusions have been discussed and WS 89 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 90 agreed at official level. The Government intend to safety net for vulnerable and low-paid workers. Through support their adoption and there will be no need to this, we have seen a better rewarded and more committed intervene. workforce who have been a force in driving up standards. The presidency will also seek the adoption of the Under the 1999 Act, the use of tips may count conclusions on the development of legal offers of towards payment of the national minimum wage in online cultural and creative content and the prevention certain circumstances. Some 10 years on, I believe that and combating of piracy in the digital environment. the time is now right to review this position to ensure The Commission published a communication in equity for all workers and to create a level playing field January of this year that examined the current status in wages among employers. of online creative content in Europe and how the In July 2008, we announced that we would be European Union can add value to this. In July, the amending national minimum wage regulations to prevent French presidency submitted draft conclusions, which the use of tips towards payment of the national minimum attempted to incorporate member states’and stakeholders’ wage. Alongside this, we set out our plans to make views on the Commission’s findings and to focus the tipping practices fairer and more transparent, as we discussions on the legal offer of online content. The believe that it is important that there is clear information conclusions have been discussed and finalised at official for consumers about what happens to their tips. level and the council is now expected to adopt them at Our consultation seeks views on the precise nature this meeting. The Government intend to support the of regulatory change and on how to improve information adoption of these conclusions. and raise awareness for consumers. Broadcasting is not a specific agenda item for this I have arranged for copies of the consultation document meeting of the council. I understand, however, that and other related papers to be placed in the Libraries Sweden may raise an information point under any of both Houses. other business on the Commission’s communication on state aid rules and public service broadcasting. State aid issues are within the formal competence of Northern Ireland Assembly: Policing and the Commission and the European Court and the Government’s view is that they are not a matter on Justice which council conclusions are appropriate. The Government, however, remain a firm supporter of the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My right honourable principle of public service broadcasting. Bearing in friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland mind the importance of public service broadcasting (Shaun Woodward) has made the following Ministerial across the EU, we think that it is right for member Statement. states and the Commission to develop a clear framework to ensure that it is properly funded in future while On 18 November, the First Minister and Deputy respecting the competition rules, and we look forward First Minister announced that their respective parties, to taking a prominent and positive role in that debate. the DUP and Sinn Fein, had reached an historic agreement on the process that would facilitate the Further items under any other business are a devolution of policing and justice powers to the Northern presentation from the presidency and Commission on Ireland Assembly. the progress report on the implementation of the council recommendation on priority actions to increase The parties also agreed that the Northern Ireland co-operation in the field of archives in Europe compiled Executive, which has not met since June, will begin by the European Archives Group. The presidency will meeting again on Thursday 20 November and will provide information on the proposed multiannual safer continue on a weekly basis until business is up to date; internet programme. There will also be an information whereupon the Executive will revert to fortnightly point from Germany on the digitisation of cinema. meetings. The Government do not foresee any need to intervene This breakthrough represents a new chapter for on these items. Northern Ireland, marking the beginning of an agreed process that will end in the transfer of policing and justice powers from this House to locally elected politicians Minimum Wage and Tipping in the power-sharing Assembly at Stormont. It sets out the initial structure of a new Department The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of Justice and the arrangements for the election of a Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory new Justice Minister. Reform (Baroness Vadera): My right honourable friend It also provides for responsibility for the appointment the Minister of State for Employment Relations and and removal of judicial office holders to rest with the Postal Affairs (Pat McFadden) has made the following Judicial Appointments Commission. Written Ministerial Statement. All these arrangements will be time-limited and the Today I am launching our consultation on proposals parties have agreed that they will come to an end to amend national minimum wage regulations that before May 2012, at which point permanent arrangements will end the practice of tips being used in payment of will need to be made. the national minimum wage. As well as agreeing the steps to transfer these Since the National Minimum Wage Act came into crucial powers, the events of this week mark the force in 1999, it has created a level playing field for maturing of democracy in Northern Ireland. Negotiations employers in the payment of wages and an essential that led to the Belfast and at St Andrews agreements WS 91 Written Statements[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Statements WS 92 were driven by the British and Irish Governments. and a national anti-kerb-crawling campaign, to support Yesterday’s agreement was the product of negotiations the police in their efforts to reduce street-based between the political parties of Northern Ireland; its prostitution. essential strength will rest in being an agreement made I accept the report’s recommendations and will take by Belfast and in Belfast for all the people of Northern forward action to implement them as soon as possible. Ireland. The British Government remain ready to help the parties to continue moving the process forward and Railways: Accidents will now finish preparations for legislation and the orders for the transfer of powers when the Assembly The Minister of State, Department for Transport expresses its wish to effect the transition. (Lord Adonis): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport (Geoff Hoon) has made the following Ministerial Statement. Prostitution As foreshadowed by my Statement of 23 October, the Department for Transport has today written to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home parties affected by the Potters Bar and Grayrigg Office (Lord West of Spithead): My right honourable derailments to seek their views on the most appropriate friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department way forward, following the adjournment of the Potters (Jacqui Smith) has made the following Written Ministerial Bar inquest in 2007. A copy of the letter has been Statement. placed in the House Library. Letters have been sent to organisations and individuals (or their representatives) Today I am publishing the findings of the Government’s who were affected by either accident and with whom review into tackling demand for prostitution. The the Department for Transport has previously had review explored both the legislative and non-legislative contact. I am also interested in the views of others options available, drawing on the experiences of other directly involved in either accident. A copy of the countries, such as Sweden and Holland. Copies have letter has been published on my department’s website been placed in the House Library. so that they may have an opportunity to respond. The review makes several recommendations that shift the focus for reducing prostitution on to the sex buyer, the person responsible for creating the demand Taxation: Double Taxation for prostitution markets, which in turn creates demand for the trade of women to be trafficked for sexual The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury exploitation. (Lord Myners): My right honourable friend the Financial Specific legislative recommendations include: creating Secretary to the Treasury (Stephen Timms) has made a new strict liability criminal offence of paying for sex the following Written Ministerial Statement. with someone who is controlled for another person’s A new double taxation convention with Libya was gain; removing the need to prove that a person has signed on 17 November 2008. After signature, the text acted persistently in order to be prosecuted for kerb- of the convention was deposited in the Libraries of crawling; and powers to close premises associated with both Houses and made available on the HM Revenue sexual exploitation. Non-legislative recommendations and Customs website. The text of the convention will include a marketing campaign to raise awareness among be scheduled to a draft Order in Council and laid sex buyers about trafficking for sexual exploitation before the House of Commons in due course.

WA 189 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 190

Lord Taylor of Holbeach asked Her Majesty’s Written Answers Government: Wednesday 19 November 2008 Whether they have considered designing a legally binding agreement allowing tenant farmers access to the proposed upland entry level scheme on the Agriculture: Bluetongue basis that annual renewal of rent for the land in question will denote continuing in the scheme for the full five-year term. [HL6075] Baroness Byford asked Her Majesty’s Government: Whether they propose to make the bluetongue Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Tenant farmers will be vaccination scheme compulsory. [HL6029] able to access the proposed uplands strand of entry level environmental stewardship, or upland ELS. Farmers with tenancies of less than five years at the time of The Minister of State, Department of Energy and application will be able to apply for upland ELS Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food provided the landowner countersigns the application, and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): Vaccination and agrees to continue the funded management should is the key tool for containment and control of bluetongue, the tenant/grazier not be able to do so. This is to and the ongoing approach to vaccination will be shaped ensure the required land management is carried out in discussion with the farming industry. Following for the five-year duration of the agreement. It is an discussions with livestock industry and veterinary EU requirement that commitments under all agri- profession stakeholders during the development of environment schemes last a minimum of five years. the 2008 vaccination plan, it was concluded by Defra and the core group of industry stakeholders that a Airports: Body Scanners voluntary approach should be taken. The vaccination plan for bluetongue serotype 8 in Baroness Ludford asked Her Majesty’s Government: 2009 is currently being developed with stakeholders. Whether they have published guidance on whether Further details will be announced following these the use of body scanners at airports and other discussions with the expectation that the vaccination security check points complies with provisions relating plan will be published by December. This will be made to the taking of indecent photographs of children available on the Defra website. in the Protection of Children Act 1978 and the Sexual Offences Act 2003; and what representations they have received from operators of these scanners Agriculture: Upland Entry Level Scheme on this matter. [HL6208]

Lord Taylor of Holbeach asked Her Majesty’s The Minister of State, Department for Transport Government: (Lord Adonis): Only the UK Border Agency currently uses body scanners and the equipment used does not Why the proposed upland entry level scheme due breach either of the Acts quoted. There are no body to replace the hill farm allowance requires a five-year scanners currently in use at UK airports as the recent commitment from tenant farmers renting land on trials have been completed. an annual basis; and what area of the countryside will, thereby, receive no environmental upkeep. Bangladesh: Elections [HL6074] Baroness Uddin asked Her Majesty’s Government: The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Whether they plan to send representatives to Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food monitor the forthcoming elections in Bangladesh. and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): All UK [HL6088] agri-environment schemes (including the proposed uplands strand of the entry level environmental stewardship The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry scheme, or upland ELS) are part-funded by the European of Justice (Lord Bach): We are supporting the EU and Union, and it is an EU requirement that commitments ANFREL (Asian Network for Free Elections) observation under these schemes last a minimum of five years. missions. Dhaka-based UK officials plan to join the This is the minimum period necessary to achieve the EU election observation mission as short-term observers. environmental benefits being paid for. In order to International observers have an important role to comply with that requirement, it is necessary to obtain play, monitoring electoral processes around the world the agreement of the landowner (or the next tenant if and making recommendations on ways to improve his rights to the land are defined) where the tenant those electoral processes based on their observations. does not have rights for the full term of the agri- Baroness Uddin asked Her Majesty’s Government: environment agreement. Whether they plan to send parliamentary Farmers with tenancies of less than five years at the representatives to monitor the forthcoming elections time of application will be able to apply for upland in Bangladesh. [HL6089] ELS provided the landowner countersigns the application and agrees to continue the funded management should Lord Bach: We plan to participate in the EU election the tenant/grazier not be able to do so. The same rule observation mission, whose efforts will complement applies to all the other strands of environmental other planned international observation missions from stewardship which have been in place since 2005. the UN, Commonwealth, United States and a regional WA 191 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 192 observation mission led by the Asian Network for British Overseas Territories Free Elections (ANFREL). There are no plans for the UK to send parliamentary representatives to monitor the election. Lord Jones of Cheltenham asked Her Majesty’s Government: Banking What has been the cost to the Treasury of contingent liabilities to each Overseas Territory in each of the Lord Pearson of Rannoch asked Her Majesty’s past 10 years for which figures are available; and Government: how much of this has been due to damage caused by climate incidents and other natural phenomena. Further to the reply by Lord Myners on 11 November (Official Report, House of Lords; [HL5520] col. 550), how they intend to ensure that the initiative for new financial regulations will come from Her Majesty’s Government and not the European Union. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry [HL6315] of Justice (Lord Bach): All assistance arises from the UK’s contingent liability to meet the reasonable assistance needs of the Overseas Territories, and defence The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury commitments. (Lord Myners): The Financial Services Authority, the Bank of England and Her Majesty’s Treasury are The following government departments provide the responsible for financial regulation in the UK. The majority of the assistance to the Overseas Territories: Government have already announced certain banking the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO), the reforms. The Chancellor has asked the noble Lord, Department for International Development (DfID), Lord Turner, the chairman of the FSA, to make the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Department recommendations on the reform of financial regulation. for Transport (DfT). The UK works with EU partners to ensure that EU DfID bilateral aid to the Overseas Territories between proposals for regulation are appropriate and effective. 1998-99 and 2007-08 was:

£ 000s 1998-99 1999-00 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

St Helena & 8,805 9,363 10,116 10,106 9,555 10,525 14,481 13,564 15,692 17,550 Dependencies Anguilla 1,977 2,058 2,232 1,847 1,044 954 1,216 895 127 British Virgin 622 516 186 83 90 11 Islands Cayman 23 18 20 3 Islands Montserrat 30,804 22,273 19,597 22,481 23,350 24,757 14,151 12,617 15,556 17,164 Turks and 3,808 4,044 2,845 2,719 1,532 741 1,187 357 149 178 Caicos Islands Pitcairn 148 99 18 26 53 64 1,314 2,582 1,837 1,460 Bermuda 13 4 Falkland Islands Gibraltar 28 23 27 23 6 5 1 2 1 Regional 563 578 1,618 1,409 957 663 642 1,532 1,771 1,001 programmes TOTALS 46,779 38,984 36,662 38,697 36,586 37,719 32,991 31,548 35,132 37,353

Within these amounts, DfID provided bilateral The FCO’s Overseas Territories Programme Fund humanitarian assistance following natural disasters to (OTPF) has a number of high-level objectives, including Montserrat (£19.9 million), St. Helena and Dependencies ensuring that the UK’s contingent liabilities are well (£165,000), Anguilla (£112,000) and the Cayman Islands managed and mitigated. Funding to the Overseas (£3,000). Territories, from this and its predecessor fund, since 2000 has been: DfID also made payments to the Gibraltar Social Insurance Fund in respect of the pension liabilities of 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 certain Spanish nationals who had worked in Gibraltar, £m 3.30 2.95 2.84 3.10 3.00 6.50 4.50 6.60 totalling £77.4 million between 1998-99 and 2006-07. In 2007-08 DfID made further payments of £15.3 million The Department for Transport takes the lead in consisting of pension liabilities and incentive payments mitigating contingent liability arising from maritime made to affected Spanish pensioners as part of the and aviation activities in the Overseas Territories. Cordoba pensions settlement. Expenditure in these areas has been: WA 193 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 194

Lord Cope of Berkeley asked Her Majesty’s 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Government: 1 1 1 £m n/a 0.46 0.46 2.9 2.05 3.06 3.47 3.36 How much the Central Office of Information 1 Aviation Safety spend only. Other figures not readily available has spent on the FRANK drugs awareness campaign. [HL6143] The Ministry of Defence spent £104 million on maintaining its defence presence in the Falkland Islands The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home in 2008-09. It commits approximately £2 million each Office (Lord West of Spithead): The FRANK drugs year to fund defence of the Overseas Territories and information campaign was launched in May 2003. disaster relief in the Caribbean Overseas Territories. The campaign provides young people and their families with advice and information about drugs. The campaign is administered and funded by the Department of Central Office of Information: Health, the Home Office and the Department for Expenditure Children, Schools and Families. The Department of Health, the Home Office and the Department for Children, Schools and Families Lord Cope of Berkeley asked Her Majesty’s procure most communication services through the Government: Central Office of Information (COI) for the FRANK What was the Central Office of Information’s campaign. Communication services provided by the total expenditure on public relations, marketing COI include media buying, research, digital and and advertising in 1996–97, using figures comparable sponsorship. with the figures cited in the Central Office of Joint spend on all communications campaign activity Information’s latest annual report and accounts. on the FRANK campaign for the financial years [HL6141] 2003-08 is set out below:

Year £ million Lord Patel of Bradford: This information is a matter of public record and can be found in the Central 2003-04 4.25 Office of Information’s annual report, copies of which 2004-05 4.30 are available in the Library of the House. 2005-06 6.17 The relevant figures for public relations, marketing 2006-07 9.05 and advertising, using figures comparable with the 2007-08 6.23 figures in the annual reports, were £81.2 million in 1996-07 and £265.8 million in 2007-08. Communications spend in this financial year to date (11 November 2008) is £2.5 million. Lord Cope of Berkeley asked Her Majesty’s Total spend in campaign years 2003-08 is £30 million. Government: Total spend to date (11 November 2008) is £32.5 million. Which advertiser-funded programming agreements the Central Office of Information has facilitated; and what was the cost to the public purse of each of Lord Cope of Berkeley asked Her Majesty’s the programmes. [HL6142] Government: How much the Central Office of Information has spent on the NHS Choice campaign. [HL6144] Lord Patel of Bradford: A summary of advertiser- funded programmes managed by the Central Office of Information (COI) to date is as follows: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The Client Programme Cost Central Office of Information has not spent any money directly on supporting the NHS Choice campaign. Department for Je suis un Rockstar £263,534.50 Between 24 March 2008 and 6 April 2008, the department Children, Schools and Families spent a total of £601,752.33 on publicising the introduction Department for If in doubt, leave it £9,300 of national NHS Free Choice from 1 April 2008. Environment, Food out and Rural Affairs National Blood Lifeblood, Blood £100,000 Chagos Islands Service Matters Xtra time £53,000 Lord Steel of Aikwood asked Her Majesty’s Blood Matters £32,000 Government: Home Office Beat: Life on the 2 x £400,000 Whether, following the upholding of their appeal Street on 22 October by the House of Lords in the case of Army Everest Man v £300,000 Mountain R (on the application of Bancoult) v Secretary of BERR Working Wonders £200,000 State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, they will allow the Chagos Islanders to return to their Investors in People In Good Company £100,000 homelands other than Diego Garcia. [HL6065] WA 195 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 196

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry The report also puts in place clear accountability of Justice (Lord Bach): The House of Lords has within departments, scrutiny of arrangements and, upheld the validity of the British Indian Ocean Territory importantly, a process of cultural change to ensure (Constitution) Order 2004. As a consequence of this that government values and handles personal data ruling, the orders of the Court of Appeal in May 2007 appropriately. Training and education of officials is a and of the Divisional Court in June 2006 in this regard crucial part of this process. A number of departments are set aside. The two Orders in Council for the British have already trained their staff on data security in line Indian Ocean Territory therefore stand and provide with DHR requirements and the Cabinet Office will that no person has a right of abode in BIOT or the shortly begin rolling out an e-learning package available right to enter the territory unless authorised. for all departments to use to train their staff. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has subsequently made clear, given the Government’s East Midlands Development Agency continuing need to take into account the issues of defence security of the whole of the Chagos archipelago Lord Taylor of Holbeach asked Her Majesty’s in order to meet our treaty obligations to the US and Government: to serve our mutual defence interests, and the fact that Further to the Written Answer by Lord Hunt of an independent study came down heavily against the Kings Heath on 16 October (WA 70), whether the feasibility of lasting resettlement of the outer islands rejection of projects by the East Midlands Development of the British Indian Ocean Territory, the Government’s Agency because they are not of suitable standard policy will remain that no person has a right of abode or merit is affected by the way the agency works in BIOT or the right to enter the territory unless with potential applicants. [HL6152] authorised. However, we will keep in close touch with the Chagossians and consider carefully future requests The Minister of State, Department of Energy and to visit the territory. Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The application process applied to the Rural Development Community Cohesion Programme for England (RDPE) by the East Midlands Development Agency (EMDA) was developed in Baroness Warsi asked Her Majesty’s Government: conjunction with industry representatives. A substantial What assessment they have made of the effect of amount of information is available on the website at single group funding on community cohesion. www.emda.org.uk/rdpe which includes a detailed [HL6347] prospectus for funding in the East Midlands and which provides much detail on the funding available in the region. This prospectus provides background The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, information about the programme, details of what can Department for Communities and Local Government and cannot be funded, possible grant rates and (Baroness Andrews): The Commission on Integration information about the application process. and Cohesion (CIC), which made its recommendations in the summer of 2006, was concerned that groups EMDA’s RDPE application process is in two stages. based on single identities were potentially divisive. In First, applicants submit an expression of interest giving February 2008 the government launched a consultation a brief description of the project. In all cases the on Cohesion Guidance for Funders which sought applicant is provided with detailed feedback and advice views on this issue. A summary of the responses to on their expression of interest and is invited to contact this consultation exercise and a decision regarding the a named member of the RDPE team at EMDA for future of the guidance will be published shortly. further information or clarification if required. Secondly, when an applicant is invited to proceed to full application they are given a step-by-step guide Data Loss detailing the information required in each section of the form. When a full application is received by EMDA, Lord Dykes asked Her Majesty’s Government: it is acknowledged and thoroughly appraised. Applicants are contacted during the appraisal process if additional What plans they have to prevent accidental loss information or clarification is required. of data sticks, CD-roms and documents by public If an application is rejected the applicant is given officials. [HL6297] specific reasons as to why the project has been rejected. The letter contains both constructive advice and guidance Lord Patel of Bradford: I refer the noble Lord to the if necessary. If the project has been rejected due to the Written Ministerial Statement placed in the House of quality of the application the letter outlines what Commons regarding the release of the data handling improvements are required and informs the applicant report (DHR) published on 25 June 2008 (Official that they are entitled to reapply if they wish. The Report, col. 26WS). The report puts in place rules that applicant is given clear guidance about the areas requiring departments must follow to improve data-handling improvement. arrangements across government. We are working with EMDA works closely with other RDPE delivery departments to ensure action is taken to protect data bodies and regional stakeholders, including the National whether they are held on electronic media or on paper. Farmers’ Union, the Country Land and Business This includes clear rules on the encryption, minimisation Association and representatives of agricultural consultants, and secure disposal of data and media. as part of its delivery of the RDPE. WA 197 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 198

In light of all these arrangements there should be The Minister of State, Department of Energy and no reason to conclude that the way in which EMDA Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food works with potential or actual applicants and their and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): National representatives is having an adverse impact on how the Grid is responsible for procuring balancing services in programme is being delivered. order to balance demand and supply and to ensure the security and quality of electricity supply across the GB transmission system. Ecosystems National Grid has a licence obligation to control system frequency within specified limits. National Grid Lord Dykes asked Her Majesty’s Government: must therefore ensure that sufficient generation and/or demand is held in automatic readiness to manage all What progress has been made by the United credible circumstances that might result in frequency Kingdom Biodiversity Research Advisory Group variations. in investigating empirical ecosystems. [HL6296] The indications from National Grid and our own advisers are that there is no technical barrier to the The Minister of State, Department of Energy and connection of renewable generation at, for example, a Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food 30 per cent to 40 per cent penetration level. The and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The indications are that the challenge is an economic rather UK Biodiversity Research Advisory Group’s Research than technical one, ie ensuring that sufficient capacity Needs Analysis for the Role of Biodiversity in Ecosystem of all technologies has the right incentives to remain Function, published in October 2006, recommended on and join the network to support the deployment of that there was a need for empirical studies on ecosystems intermittent renewable technologies and ensuring the to improve our understanding of ecosystem functioning economic and efficient operation of the balancing and of the services they provide. mechanism. In September 2008, UK BRAG held a joint workshop with the British Ecological Society to look specifically at ecosystem services and the ecosystem approach. Energy: Oil Prices The workshop brought environmental researchers together with sociologists and geographers to look at valuing biodiversity in a more holistic and practical way. The proceedings of this workshop will shortly be available Lord Bradshaw asked Her Majesty’s Government: on the UK BRAG website. What is their latest forecast of the future level of oil prices. [HL5348] Energy: Gas Prices The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food Lord Laird asked Her Majesty’s Government: and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The What incentives they propose for companies to Government do not publish oil price forecasts. They reduce the cost of natural gas. [HL5793] publish oil, gas and coal future price assumptions for the period to 2030. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and The latest version of the Government’s future fossil Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food fuel price assumptions were published in May 2008, and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The following a consultation published in January. Further main incentive for companies to minimise the price of details are available at the following links: natural gas is the knowledge that they are operating in www.berr.gov.uk/energy/environment/projections/ a competitive market, with an effective economic regulator recent/page26391.html and www.berr.gov.uk/files/ to protect the interests of consumers. The Government file46071.pdf. are doing their part by seeking to ensure fit-for-purpose consents regimes for new gas import and storage facilities through the Planning and Energy Bills now Lord Laird asked Her Majesty’s Government: before Parliament and by working for open and Whether they are discussing with fuel companies competitive international energy markets in the EU the profits made as a result of the increase in oil and beyond. prices; and, if so, with which companies. [HL5792]

Energy: National Grid Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: As part of regular departmental activity, Ministers have discussions with a wide range of UK and international companies Lord Vinson asked Her Majesty’s Government: operating at each stage of energy supply chains, covering What plans the National Grid has to cope with pricing and financials among other issues. Movements the projected 30,000 megawatts of intermittent wind in global oil prices and their implications for UK turbine energy, equating to approximately half the consumers of road transport fuel, gas and electricity national peak demand of electricity. [HL5666] are among the factors discussed. WA 199 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 200

Ethnic Monitoring: Equality Outcomes Lord Cotter asked Her Majesty’s Government: Which contractors of the Department of Health Lord Ouseley asked Her Majesty’s Government: do not pay their suppliers within 30 days; and what representations they will make to these contractors Whether ethnic monitoring is necessary for about withholding retentions from subcontractors, measuring equality outcomes. [HL6222] in accordance with the Office of Government Commerce’s fair payment charter. [HL6125] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (Baroness Andrews): The Government consider that Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The ethnic monitoring can be a valuable tool in helping to department does not centrally collect data on contractors assess race equality outcomes. who do not pay their subcontractors within 30 days. The department is committed to the Government’s European Arrest Warrant target of paying all satisfactory invoices within 30 days of the date of the individual invoice. The department has recently committed to making payments to small Lord Pearson of Rannoch asked Her Majesty’s and medium-sized enterprises within 10 days. Government: The retention of the value of work executed by the How many British citizens have faced proceedings contractor or any nominated subcontractor on large-scale under the European arrest warrant. [HL6101] projects is 10 per cent. Subject to satisfactory completion, this is released in stages on contract completion. This is in line with the Office of Government Commerce’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home fair payment charter. The department would support Office (Lord West of Spithead): The Extradition Act 2003, a subcontractor if he experienced difficulty getting which gave effect to the provisions of the European paid by the department’s prime contractor. arrest warrant (EAW) in the UK, came into force on 1 January 2004. Since that date, and up to 30 September 2008, 203 British citizens have been arrested pursuant to EAWs. 101 British nationals have subsequently Gypsies and Travellers been surrendered to other European member states pursuant to EAWs (see attached table). Lord Avebury asked Her Majesty’s Government: The table below sets out the figures for each year How many pitches there were on local authority since the introduction of the EAW: Gypsy and Traveller sites in England and Wales in May 1997; and how many there were on the latest Arrests Surrenders date for which figures are available. [HL6333] 2004 12 5 2005 42 11 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, 2006 49 26 Department for Communities and Local Government 2007 62 27 (Baroness Andrews): In January 1997, the biannual 2008 to 30.09.08 38 32 count of Gypsy and Traveller caravans found that there were 5,438 pitches on local authority sites in England, accommodating 6,324 caravans. In January Government: Contractors 2008, there were 4,902 pitches on local authority sites accommodating 6,696 caravans. The Welsh Assembly Government are responsible Lord Cotter asked Her Majesty’s Government: for the caravan count in Wales. Which contractors of the Ministry of Justice do not pay their suppliers within 30 days; and what representations they will make to these contractors Health: Diabetes about withholding retentions from subcontractors, in accordance with the Office of Government Lord Harrison asked Her Majesty’s Government: Commerce’s fair payment charter. [HL6122] What mechanisms and guidance they have issued to general practitioners to encourage them to offer The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry blood glucose tests to patients not diagnosed with of Justice (Lord Bach): The Ministry of Justice does diabetes who have established risk factors; and not hold information about which construction contractors do not pay their suppliers within 30 days [HL6231] or are withholding retentions from subcontractors. To Whether the deployment of the new vascular identify and communicate with all suppliers would be checks will include plans to provide priority access disproportionate in terms of cost and time. My for people not diagnosed with diabetes who have department is reviewing recommended action in respect established diabetes risk factors and to ensure such of the OGC’s Guide to Best Fair Payment Practice— people are tested for diabetes as part of the checks. Construction Procurement 2007. [HL6232] WA 201 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 202

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Putting of Justice (Lord Bach): The White Paper published on Prevention First, published on 1 April 2008, set out the 14 July is the basis for continuing public consultation. Government’s proposals for a universal, systematic In the White Paper we endorsed the conclusion of the risk assessment programme for people aged between Wakeham Commission, that it would be problematic 40 and 74 who are not already on an established for a reformed second Chamber to represent all faiths disease register. A copy has been placed in the Library. in the UK. We are seeking views on whether an On 13 November 2008 the department published appointments commission for the second Chamber (if Vascular risk assessment and management: Next steps appointments are to be made) should be required to guidance, to support primary care trusts (PCTs) in provide broader faith representation. We are considering implementing vascular checks. A vascular check will the responses we have received as part of developing include a filter to determine diabetes risk, and those detailed proposals for Lords reform. with established diabetes risk factors will be given a blood sugar test. A copy has been placed in the Housing Library. The guidance emphasises the important role that Baroness Warsi asked Her Majesty’s Government: vascular checks can play in tackling health inequalities, Whether a permanent tree house within the curtilage and we expect PCTs to develop local implementation of a domestic dwelling is taken into account by the strategies that take into account the risk levels in their Valuation Office Agency when a property is valued own population. for council tax. [HL6350] Healthcare: Clinical Physiology The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government Baroness Masham of Ilton asked Her Majesty’s (Baroness Andrews): In the case of a new dwelling, all Government: features of the property that affect value are taken into account in the banding. The test is whether, in the (a) whether they plan to include clinical physiology open market, the presence of a tree house would have in a system of statutory regulation; and (b) whether any material effect on the property’s capital value: in they will publish an implementation timetable for general this is unlikely. the inclusion of clinical physiology in a system of In the case of an existing dwelling, if the tree house statutory regulation; and [HL6195] was a later addition that added value, it would only be What representations they have received from taken into account when the dwelling was subsequently the Health Professions Council with regard to the sold, or let on a lease for more than seven years. inclusion of clinical physiologists in a system of statutory regulation; and [HL6196] Housing: Right to Buy Scheme What criteria they use when considering whether to bring new groups of healthcare professionals Lord Stoddart of Swindon asked Her Majesty’s into a system of statutory regulation. [HL6197] Government: Whether, in the light of the availability of social The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, housing to rent, they will discontinue or suspend Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The the right to buy scheme. [HL6318] Health Professions Council (HPC) previously made a recommendation to the Government that a group of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, healthcare scientists, including clinical physiologists, Department for Communities and Local Government should be statutorily regulated. The Government are (Baroness Andrews): I refer the noble Lord to my considering proposals for the regulation of the totality Answer to his earlier Question on this subject, in of the healthcare science workforce, including clinical Hansard for 1 October 2007, col. WA162. The Government physiologists, to deliver the commitments outlined in have no plans to discontinue or suspend the right to trust assurance and safety. Timescales will be made buy scheme. available in due course, including details of the necessary consultation process. India: Orissa The Extending Professional Regulation Working Group is developing proposals regarding criteria for Lord Patten asked Her Majesty’s Government: bringing new groups of healthcare professionals into a system of regulation. The current 10 criteria used by Whether they have or will discuss with the the HPC to assess regulation of new groups are informing Government of India allegations that certain Hindu this work. The HPC is represented on the working group. organisations are seeking the religious cleansing of those following other faiths in Orissa state. [HL5765]

House of Lords: Reform The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): We believe that there are a Lord Avebury asked Her Majesty’s Government: variety of factors behind the recent violence in Orissa. Whether they will hold a public consultation on On 17 October, my noble Friend Lord Malloch-Brown the number and different types of representatives of discussed our concerns with Anand Sharma, Indian faith or belief organisations as part of their proposals Minister of External Affairs, and Mohammed Quereshi, for reform of the House of Lords. [HL6177] chairman of the Minorities Commission, in New Delhi. WA 203 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 204

We will continue to urge the Government of India courts of the United States in respect of crimes to uphold the right to freedom of religion. The issue committed by terrorists trained or armed by of religious freedom is due to be raised at the EU-India Libya. [HL5305] Human Rights Dialogue in New Delhi later this year. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Inquiries: Northern Ireland of Justice (Lord Bach): The conclusion of a government- to-government agreement between the US and Libya Lord Glentoran asked Her Majesty’s Government: on 14 August will provide for compensation for many How much each public inquiry in progress in of the victims of Libya’s past sponsorship of terrorism Northern Ireland has cost; and what is the average including the British families of the victims of the monthly cost of running inquiries in Northern Ireland. bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie in [HL6071] 1988. While this is welcome news for these families it is regrettable that the deal will not benefit all UK nationals Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The costs to the end of with cases in US courts against Libya. October 2008 of the independent public inquiries currently During the course of negotiations between the US under way in Northern Ireland are as follows: and Libya, the Government made representations to the US Administration that existing UK claimants The Robert Hamill Inquiry £18.20 million with claims before US courts against Libya for its past The Rosemary Nelson Inquiry £33.42 million sponsorship of IRA terrorist acts (the McDonald The Billy Wright Inquiry £20.21 million case) should be included in the recipients of any The Bloody Sunday Inquiry £184.9 million compensation package. But in the event, this proved not to be possible. The Hamill, Nelson and Wright inquiries were A key reason for this was that international and US announced to Parliament on 16 November 2004. The law do not permit the US Administration to espouse average monthly cost of running the inquiries in each the claims of foreign nationals. Also relevant to the financial year since then is as follows: US decision was their assessment of how likely it Average monthly spend by financial year (£000) would be that claims would fall within the jurisdiction Inquiry 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 of US courts, and how likely it would be that they would succeed. We understand from the US that US Robert Hamill 111 290 516 365 530 courts would not have jurisdiction to hear actions by Inquiry British nationals against Libya. Rosemary 138 294 861 856 1,248 Nelson Inquiry Billy Wright 15 192 370 739 649 Inquiry Malawi

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry was announced to Lord Steel of Aikwood asked Her Majesty’s Parliament on 29 January 1998. The average monthly Government: cost of running that inquiry, and the average monthly legal costs paid by the MoD, are as follows: In view of attempts to rename the President of Malawi “Life President”, what steps they will take Average monthly spend by financial year (£000) to make upholding democracy in that country, in 1997-98 1998-99 1999-00 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 particular the staging of free and fair elections in Bloody 40 554 1,047 1,612 1,598 2,148 May 2009, a condition of United Kingdom aid to Sunday Malawi. [HL6066] Inquiry MoD legal 0 101 272 370 538 565 costs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): The UK, with its EU, Average monthly spend by financial year (£000) Commonwealth and other international partners, is 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 working closely with the Malawian authorities, and with the electoral commission in particular, to try to Bloody 2,277 1,198 597 793 421 358 ensure that next year’s presidential and parliamentary Sunday Inquiry elections are free, fair and credible. The Government, MoD legal 53427132221922through the Department for International Development Costs (DfID), are providing £4 million to support the process, including technical preparations (for example to strengthen the capacity of the electoral commission by buying an Libya: Compensation electronic computerised voter registration system). We are also actively observing the voter registration process. High Commission officials have visited some 200 Lord Tebbit asked Her Majesty’s Government: registration centres in all parts of the country, and we Whether, in view of the proposed settlement will be discussing our findings with the authorities. concerning crimes committed against United States Other DfID and High Commission programmes are citizens with Libyan support, they will assist British supporting democratic processes, including strengthening nationals seeking compensation from Libya in the the media and Parliament, and conflict mitigation. WA 205 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 206

New Forest National Park UK and three other member states abstained from the vote. In accordance with the rules on co-decision, the proposal was adopted with the support of the Commission Lord Taylor of Holbeach asked Her Majesty’s and a qualified majority of member states. Government: What assessment they have made of the effect of the New Forest National Park management plan Police: Ethnic Minority Recruits on the amount of cycling allowed in the forest. [HL6275] Lord Sheikh asked Her Majesty’s Government: How many black minority ethnic police officers The Minister of State, Department of Energy and have been recruited by each police force in each of Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food the past five calendar years. [HL6185] and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): Ihave made no assessment. The purpose of the management plan is for the National Park Authority (in co-operation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home with its stakeholders) to formulate its policy for the Office (Lord West of Spithead): I refer the noble Lord management of the park and for the carrying out of to the Answer given in the table attached. its functions. The New Forest National Park Authority Police Officer Minority Ethnic Recruits1 to Police Forces from is an independent authority operating within the local 2003-04 to 2007-082 (FTE)3 government framework and legislation. 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Avon and 42411 Parliamentary Ombudsman Somerset Bedfordshire 5 12 9 0 10 Cambridgeshire 66100 Lord Lester of Herne Hill asked Her Majesty’s Cheshire60320 Government: Cleveland 22600 Further to the Written Answers by Baroness Cumbria 41011 Scotland of Asthal on 8 November 2006 (WA194–5) Derbyshire11366 and 21 May 2007 (WA 79), whether they have Devon 21102 established means of collating and making available and Cornwall information about recommendations from the Dorset 10010 Parliamentary Ombudsman following her Durham41100 investigations. [HL5871] Dyfed- 00120 Powys The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Essex377910 Office (Lord West of Spithead): The Home Office is in Gloucestershire 32110 regular contact with the Parliamentary Ombudsman Greater 41 32 11 13 22 in relation to complaints. In particular, there are regular Manchester meetings between UKBA officials and members of Gwent20240 the ombudsman’s office. In view of these arrangements, Hampshire 7 5 13 9 4 there are no current plans to collate and make available Hertfordshire 14 5 8 6 11 this information. Humberside 40010 Kent486823 Lancashire 15 6 5 11 10 Pesticides Leicestershire 18 6 9 17 13 Lincolnshire12200 Lord Taylor of Holbeach asked Her Majesty’s London, 78310 Government: City of Merseyside 7 10 7 19 5 Further to the Written Answer by Lord Hunt of Metropolitan 500 252 166 215 193 Kings Heath on 21 October (WA 97), why they Police abstained in the June vote in the Council on European Norfolk00011 Union proposals on plant protection products; and Northamptonshire76135 what was the tactical or other effect of that abstention. Northumbria 12521 [HL6156] North 01012 Wales The Minister of State, Department of Energy and North 20010 Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food Yorkshire and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The Nottinghamshire 75213 Government welcomed most of the compromise proposal South 33572 which was put to the Agriculture and Fisheries Council, Wales South 95574 but remained concerned that no proper assessment of Yorkshire the potential impact of the proposals for endocrine Staffordshire23314 disrupters on agriculture in the European Union, or of Suffolk30321 their benefits for consumers, was made available. The WA 207 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 208

Police Officer Minority Ethnic Recruits1 to Police Forces from Offenders with identified severe mental health problems 2003-04 to 2007-082 (FTE)3 are subject to the care programme approach during 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 their stay in prison and on release. This is a standardised Surrey 3 1 7 19 12 formula for the care planning of treatment and continuity Sussex46722of mental health care for the individual. This means Thames 20 14 15 12 17 that on release from prison all should have a care plan Valley and, pre-release, the prison mental health in-reach Warwickshire 1 5 10 3 0 team inform and share information with the individual’s West 22121local community mental health team and general Mercia practitioner. West 49 43 54 35 45 Midlands Race Relations West 16 35 8 15 18 Yorkshire Lord Ouseley asked Her Majesty’s Government: Wiltshire 52101 Total 795 502 396 441 430 In the light of levels of homelessness and unemployment and the consequences for race relations, 1. Recruits included those officers joining as police standard direct recruits and those who were previously special constables. what role they expect local race equality councils to This excludes police officers on transfers from other forces and play. [HL6269] those rejoining. 2. Financial year runs 1 April to 31 March inclusive. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government 3. Full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. Because of rounding, there may be an (Baroness Andrews): Race equality councils do not apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of the constituent have a statutory role and the Government do not task items. them in any way.However, where local race organisations such as race equality councils and race equality partnerships work with local authorities and other Prisoners: Mental Health local bodies, they can provide important expertise, local knowledge and intelligence to assist them in fulfilling their duties under the Race Relations Act to Earl Howe asked Her Majesty’s Government: eliminate unlawful discrimination and promote equality Whether they will provide primary care trusts of opportunity and good relations between people of and strategic health authorities with guidance on different racial groups. the implications of the imprisonment for public protection (IPP) sentence for their commissioning Racism plans for prison mental health services, in the light of the Sainsbury Centre report In the Dark. Lord Ouseley asked Her Majesty’s Government: [HL6206] Whether they intend to take positive action to tackle any institutional racism in the United Kingdom’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, political bodies. [HL6224] Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): We welcome In the Dark, the Sainsbury Centre on Mental The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall Health report on imprisonment, public protection of Blaisdon): The Government intend to use the sentences and mental ill health, and fully recognise forthcoming Equality Bill to broaden the range of that mental ill health among the prisoner population voluntary positive action measures which can be taken is high compared with the general population. The to the full extent allowed by European law. The Bill report raises some important points about the information will allow political parties to take a wider range of available to prisoners and about access to treatment actions in relation to matters regarding their constitution, and care that we will certainly incorporate into our organisation and administration, including: offender health strategy to be published early next carrying out an audit of political party membership year. to identify the proportion of members from under- represented groups and identify where gaps are Earl Howe asked Her Majesty’s Government: present; setting targets for recruitment drives; What plans they have to ensure that primary care trusts and mental health trusts can commission carrying out general and specific or targeted recruitment and provide mental health care for people released drives; on life licence from imprisonment for public protection. running mentoring and leadership programmes; [HL6207] setting targets for increasing the proportion of politicians and staff from under-represented groups; Lord Darzi of Denham: The Home Office launched and the Five Year Strategy for Protecting the Public and establishing and supporting in-house forums for Reducing Re-offending in February 2008. It contains a under-represented groups. commitment to look at ways in which offenders receive Further, on 12 November the House of Commons effective mental health treatment, whether in prison, agreed to establish a Speaker’s Conference which will in a hospital setting, or in the community. consider, and make recommendations for rectifying, WA 209 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 210 the disparity between the representation of women judgments of the European Court of Human Rights. and ethnic minorities and disabled people in the House It makes available a simplified global database of all of Commons and their representation in the UK pending cases for execution control. While this database population at large. This will be an important platform is not completely up to date, as it takes time for to discuss the action needed and we look forward to judgments to become final and does not include some the findings of the conference. of the older cases, it is the best available public source of information on judgments that remain unimplemented. The database can be accessed at http://www.coe.int/t/e/ Refineries: Carbon Dioxide Emissions human_rights/execution/02_Documents/PPIndex.asp #TopOfPage and includes contact details to follow up any case not listed on the database with the secretariat. Lord Hylton asked Her Majesty’s Government: The Government fully support the work of the Whether they will raise the issue of carbon dioxide European Court of Human Rights and raise the emissions from flaring at oil or gas wells and refineries implementation of the court’s judgments with Russia in all appropriate international fora; and whether in their bilateral human rights dialogues. progress is being made towards eliminating such emissions. [HL6097]

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Schools: Academies Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The UK has raised, and will continue to raise, the issue of Lord Bates asked Her Majesty’s Government: flaring associated gas as appropriate in international Who has sponsored each educational academy fora. We are working with international partners, sharing since its formation; and, in each case, who was the best practice and encouraging investment in infrastructure lead sponsor and what were their financial to make progress on eliminating gas flaring. But this is contributions. [HL6159] a long-term issue which will require action by governments and individual operators in a number of countries to deliver results. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Russia: Human Rights Morgan of Drefelin): The two tables show the sponsorship arrangements for each of the academies open in September 2008. The first, headed “traditional procurement Lord Hylton asked Her Majesty’s Government: academies”, shows for each academy, where sponsorship is a contribution to capita costs, the total pledged and How many judgments of the European Court of the amount for which the department has evidence of Human Rights given against Russia remain receipt. In some cases further sponsorship payments unimplemented; and how much compensation awarded will have been received by the academy trust but not to Russian persons is outstanding. [HL5375] yet reported to the department. The second table, headed “endowment sponsorship”, shows for each The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry academy where sponsorship is in the form of contributions of Justice (Lord Bach): The Committee of Ministers to an endowment fund, the amounts pledged and the of the Council of Europe supervises the execution of amounts reported so far to the department as received.

Traditional Procurement Academies Total expected expenditure of Total confirmed sponsor’s capital contribution contribution to end from sponsor to end Total sponsorship of October 2008 of October 2008 Academy Sponsor pledged £(000s) £(000s) £(000s)

Manchester United Learning Trust 2,000 1,614 1,614 Lambeth United Learning Trust 2,000 2,000 2,000 Northampton United Learning Trust 2,000 1,295 1,295 Paddington United Learning Trust * 1,500 857 429 Salford United Learning Trust * 1,600 529 214 Barnsley United Learning Trust * 1,500 214 27 Walthamstow United Learning Trust * 1,500 214 27 Sheffield Springs United Learning Trust 1,500 1,500 1,500 Sheffield Park United Learning Trust 1,000 1,000 1,000 Stockport United Learning Trust * 1,500 429 202 Manchester William United Learning Trust * 950 135 0 Hulme WA 211 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 212

Traditional Procurement Academies Total expected expenditure of Total confirmed sponsor’s capital contribution contribution to end from sponsor to end Total sponsorship of October 2008 of October 2008 Academy Sponsor pledged £(000s) £(000s) £(000s)

North Oxfordshire United Learning Trust (in 1,500 36 36 partnership with Vodafone) Swindon United Learning Trust (in 1,500 300 0 partnership with Honda) Peckham (1) Harris Federation of South 2,000 2,000 2,986 London Schools Trust Harris Academy South (1) Harris Federation of South 2,000 1,126 250 Norwood London Schools Trust (2) The Whitgift Foundation Harris Bermondsey (1) Harris Federation of South 1,500 500 493 London Schools Trust Harris Merton (1) Harris Federation of South 500 0 0 London Schools Trust Harris Girls—East (1) Harris Federation of South 500 0 0 Dulwich London Schools Trust Harris Crystal Palace (1) Harris Federation of South 1,000 0 0 London Schools Trust The King’s Academy Vardy Foundation 2,000 2,000 2,006 Trinity, Doncaster Vardy Foundation 2,000 2,000 2,000 Haberdashers’— Haberdashers Livery Company 705 705 705 Hatcham, Lewisham Haberdashers’— Haberdashers Livery Company 296 296 296 Knights, Lewisham Marlowe Roger De Haan & Kent County 2,735 2,735 2,735 Council Folkestone Roger De Haan & Kings 2,250 2,250 1,501 School, Canterbury Walsall Thomas Telford Online & The 2,500 2,500 2,565 Mercers Company Sandwell (1) Mercers Company (2) 2,794 2,794 2,743 Thomas Telford Online (3) HSBC (4) West Brom Albion FC (5) Tarmac Group Telford Madeley Thomas Telford School (CTC) 2,000 500 500 Grace, Solihull Bob Edmiston 2,000 2,000 2,000 Coventry Grace Bob Edmiston 2,000 0 0 Academy Enfield Oasis Community Learning 2,000 308 308 OASIS—Immingham Oasis Community Learning 2,000 83 0 OASIS—Wintringham Oasis Community Learning 2,000 83 0 Burlington Danes, ARK 1,500 1,000 1,000 Hammersmith and Fulham Lambeth 2 Evelyn ARK 2,000 500 0 Grace Southwark 4 Globe ARK 1,500 0 0 Westminster King ARK 1,500 500 500 Solomon Bexley Sir David Garrard 2,410 2,410 2,462 Greig City Academy, Greig Trust/Diocese of London 2,000 2,000 1,930 Haringey Unity City Academy, Amey Construction 2,000 2,000 1,948 Middlesbrough Capital City, Brent Sir Frank Lowe 2,000 2,000 1,993 City of London Corporation of London 2,000 2,000 2,000 Southwark City Academy, Bristol John Laycock 2,499 2,499 1,670 West London, Ealing Alec Reed 2,000 2,000 2,000 London Academy, Peter Shalson 1,500 1,500 1,490 Barnet WA 213 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 214

Traditional Procurement Academies Total expected expenditure of Total confirmed sponsor’s capital contribution contribution to end from sponsor to end Total sponsorship of October 2008 of October 2008 Academy Sponsor pledged £(000s) £(000s) £(000s)

Mossbourne Sir Clive Bourne (Deceased) 2,150 2,150 1,745 Community Academy, Hackney Stockley Barry Townsley 2,000 2,000 1,953 St Francis of Assisi Diocese of Liverpool/RC 2,000 2,000 1,187 Archdiocese of Liverpool The Harefield Academy David Meller/Haig Oundjian/ 1,500 1,200 335 Jonathon Green Dixons CTC, Bradford Dixons Academy Trust 651 651 614 David Young, Leeds Church of England 1,500 1,500 1,000 Westminster Exilarch Foundation 2,000 900 900 Thomas Deacon Deacons Trust 2,000 2,000 1,970 Academy, Peterborough St Paul’s—Greenwich Archdiocese of Southwark 2,000 200 200 John Madejski, Reading John Madejski 2,000 2,000 2,000 The Bridge, Hackney UBS 2,000 2,000 2,001 Samworth Enterprise Samworth Brothers/Leicester 2,443 2,063 2,063 Diocesan Board for Education The Petchey Academy, Jack Petchey Foundation 2,000 2,000 2,000 Hackney North Liverpool Liverpool University & 1,000 1,000 0 Granada Learning Bradford Cathedral (1) Diocese of Bradford (2) 1,000 500 0 CoFE Macmillan, Macmillan Academy Trust 1,250 450 450 Middlesbrough Djanogly Academy, FORMER CTC 0 0 0 Nottingham St Matthew Lewisham Roman Catholic Archdiocese of 2,100 2,100 2,100 Southwark Slough Langley Martyn Arbib 2,000 1,500 1,500 Leigh Technology, Kent FORMER CTC 2,000 2,275 2,275 St Mary Magdalene— London Diocese Board for 2,000 1,500 1,500 Islington Schools Bristol—Withywood The Society of Merchant 2,000 1,050 1,050 Venturers Newcastle Excelsior Lord Laidlaw of Rothiemay 2,000 2,000 2,419 Corby City Academy Weston Foundation/BeeBee _ 2,000 1,794 1,794 Development/Brooke Weston CTC Ashcroft Technology Prospect Education _ 960 860 860 Academy, Wandsworth (Technology) Trust Ltd Landau Forte College, Landau Forte College 460 460 453 Derby Q3—Sandwell Eric Payne 2,000 0 0 Brooke Weston, Brooke Weston CTC Trust 461 176 176 Northampton John Cabot, Bristol John Cabot CTC 378 207 207 Liverpool Belvedere Girls’ Day School Trust & 980 0 0 HSBC Islington—COLA (I) (1) Corporation of London (2) 2,000 1,359 1,359 City University Sandwell—RSA RSA 1,500 1,000 0 Darwen Aldridge The Aldridge Foundation 2,000 0 0 Kingshurst, Solihull Kingshurst CTC Company 1,338 0 0 Bacons, Southwark Bacons CTC 0 0 0 Barnet 2 Wren (1) Diocese of London (2) ** Birkhamsted Collegiate School Hereford Steiner Steiner School Fellowship ** WA 215 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 216

Traditional Procurement Academies Total expected expenditure of Total confirmed sponsor’s capital contribution contribution to end from sponsor to end Total sponsorship of October 2008 of October 2008 Academy Sponsor pledged £(000s) £(000s) £(000s)

St Mark’s Academy— (1) Southwark Diocesan Board ** Merton of Education (2) CfBT Education Trust

Where there is more than one sponsor the lead sponsor is the first named. Sponsorship pledged is based on reasonable endeavours.

** Pledged amount to be determined pending signing of Part 2 to the Funding Agreement.

Endowment Sponsorship Academy Start Date Sponsors Total Pledge Actuals to Date

Gateway Academy 01/09/06 Main Sponsor(s): The Ormiston Trust 2,000,000 20,000 (Peter Murray) Barnfield South 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Barnfield College 2,000,000 100,000 Academy Further Education Corporation Barnfield West Academy 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Barnfield College 2,000,000 100,000 Further Education Corporation Eastbourne C of E 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Diocesean Board of 1,500,000 (between 0 Academy Education for Durham David & Anne both) Crossland George Salter Collegiate 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Ormiston Trust/ 1,500,000 0 Academy Shireland Learning Havelock Academy 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): The David Ross 2,000,000 0 Foundation Marsh Academy 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Kent County Council 750,000 750,000 Marsh Academy De Haan Charitable Trust 100,000 Marsh Academy Kent County Council (best endeavours by 150,000 23/07/12) New Line Learning 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Cornwallis Online 2,000,000 500,000 Academy and Cornwallis Learning/Kent County Council Academy Shireland Collegiate 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Ormiston Trust/ 1,500,000 0 Academy Shireland Learning St Anne’s Academy 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Diocesan Board of 1,500,000 (between 500,000 Education for Manchester David & Anne both Crossland St Michael and All 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Southwark Diocesan 2,000,000 500,000 Angels CE Academy Board of Education Spires Academy 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): The Pack Foundation/ 500,000 (between 0 Crown Products (Kent) Ltd both Walworth Academy 01/09/07 Main Sponsor(s): Absolute Return for 1,500,000 0 Kids (ARK) Abraham Darby 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Haberdashers’/Telford 750,000 0 Academy and Wrekin Local Council Academy 360 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Gentoo Group/ 2,250,000 1,000,000 Sunderland CC Archbishop Sentamu 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Diocese of York 2,000,000 0 Academy Ark Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Absolute Return for 1,500,000 0 Kids (ARK) The Hereford Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Hereford Diocesan 1,500,000 0 Board of Education Longfield Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Leigh Technology Deed of Gift to be 0 Academy Trust/Kent CC/University of agreed Kent New Charter Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): New Charter Housing 2,000,000 0 Trust Oasis Academy Bristol 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Oasis Community 1,500,000 0 Hengrove Learning Oasis Academy Media 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Oasis Community 1,500,000 0 City: UK Salford Learning WA 217 Written Answers[19 NOVEMBER 2008] Written Answers WA 218

Endowment Sponsorship Academy Start Date Sponsors Total Pledge Actuals to Date

Open Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Grahame Dacre / Bishop 2,000,000 0 of Norwich Oxford Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Diocese of Oxford/ 1,500,000 0 Oxford Brookes University/Adrian Beecroft Pimlico 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Future 2,000,000 0 Priory City of Lincoln 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Priory Trust 6,330,000 313,000 Academy sponsorship total sponsorship total across all 3 across all 3 academies academies Priory LSST Academy 01/09/08 Priory Witham Academy 01/09/08 Richard Rose Central 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Brian Scowcroft/Andrew 2,000,000 0 Academy Tinkler/University of Cumbria Richard Rose Morton 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Brian Scowcroft/Andrew 2,000,000 0 Academy Tinkler/University of Cumbria Samworth Church 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): David Samworth/ 1,500,000 500,000 Academy, Nottingham Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham St Lawrence Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Diocese of Lincoln 1,500,000 0 West Lakes Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Nuclear 2,000,000 0 Decommissioning Authority Sellafield Ltd/ University of Lancashire Accrington Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): United Learning Trust 1,500,000 125,000 Trent Valley Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor: Edu Trust 1,500,000 1,500,000 Shelfield Academy, 01/01/09 Main Sponsor(s): Ormiston Trust 1,500,000 0 Walsall Colston Girls’ Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Society of Merchant No sponsorship Venturers requirement Bristol Cathedral School 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Bristol Cathedral School No sponsorship requirement Harris Falconwood 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Harris Federation of No sponsorship South London Schools Trust requirement Oasis Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Oasis Community No sponsorship Coulsdon Learning requirement Oasis Academy 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Oasis Community No sponsorship Brightstowe Learning requirement Oasis Academy Mayfield 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Oasis Community No sponsorship Learning requirement Oasis Academy Lords 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Oasis Community No sponsorship Hill Learning requirement Greensward 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Greensward College No sponsorship requirement New Rickstones 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Greensward College No sponsorship requirement The Maltings 01/09/08 Main Sponsor(s): Greensward College No sponsorship requirement

Sport: Swimming all matters that can influence the delivery of its core objectives, specifically: swimming teaching and coaching, the development of volunteer and professional structures, facility strategy and management, and health and Lord Clement-Jones asked Her Majesty’s Government: safety. Whether the Swimming Forum represents a cross- section of interests in swimming-related matters. Lord Clement-Jones asked Her Majesty’s Government: [HL6077] Whether the Swimming Forum’s business is conducted so as to ensure that the Amateur Swimming The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Association only exercises appropriate influence. Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord [HL6078] Carter of Barnes): The Swimming Forum comprises a wide cross-section of organisations with an interest in the development of swimming. The forum recognises Lord Carter of Barnes: The Swimming Forum is an that there are many aspects to swimming as a sport, independent forum and all member bodies have equal including recreational swimming, disabled swimming, rights. Membership is open to any recognised body in and swimming’s educational aspects, as well as its the United Kingdom concerned primarily with the many associated disciplines. The forum can consider delivery of swimming activities in swimming pools, WA 219 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 220 and which contributes towards the provision of swimming Voluntary Work: Young People activities for the community. The forum is currently chaired by the Institute of Sport and Recreation Lord Cope of Berkeley asked Her Majesty’s Management, with the Amateur Swimming Association Government: providing the secretariat. What payments the Government youth volunteering organisation v has made, or is contracted to make, to public relations consultants; and for what purposes. Turks and Caicos Islands [HL6145]

Lord Patel of Bradford: In 2008-09 the Cabinet Lord Jones of Cheltenham asked Her Majesty’s Office awarded a grant of £2.6 million for marketing Government: to the independent youth volunteering charity v. The Whether, following Hurricane Ike, they plan to purpose of the grant is to promote youth volunteering, install a meteorological station in the Turks and making it an accessible, attractive proposition to young Caicos Islands to give more comprehensive weather people. V’s marketing activity drives young people to forecasts. [HL6388] vinspired.com where they can discover opportunities to volunteer and their local v contact. V has engaged an agency to develop and implement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry its ongoing communications activity including public of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): There are no relations. They are paid on a project by project basis. plans to install a meteorological station in the Turks and Caicos Islands. However, there are already three Women in Prison operational meteorological observing stations located at the islands’ principal airports; the information from Lord Rana asked Her Majesty’s Government: these stations is integrated into the weather forecasts produced for the islands by the Bahamas Department What steps they will take to reduce the number of Meteorology and the regional hurricane warning of women in prison for minor offences, as highlighted service provided out of the National Hurricane Centre by the United Nations Committee on the elimination in Miami. of discrimination against women in its concluding observations in respect of the United Kingdom on 18 July. [HL6114] Voluntary Organisations: Grants The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): Sentencing and remand decisions in individual cases are entirely a matter for the independent Baroness Warsi asked Her Majesty’s Government: judiciary within the law and any guidance issued by What is the minimum income or turnover that a the Sentencing Guidelines Council and the Court of charity or voluntary group must have in order to be Appeal. The law already makes clear that prison sentences eligible to bid for Empowerment Fund grants. should be given only when the offending behaviour is so serious as to make that the only possible punishment. [HL6352] The Government have consistently expressed their view that offenders who are not violent or dangerous The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, do not need to be in custody and their offending can Department for Communities and Local Government better be addressed with a community order. (Baroness Andrews): Having ensured that they meet all The Government have been focusing on finding the relevant criteria specified by the fund, applicants effective, practical ways of diverting resources into should have a minimum income of £170,000pa. However, community provision. The CEDAW recommendations third sector organisations with a lower income may will be considered in the context of implementation of still be able to apply through a partnership where the the commitments set out in the Governments response lead applicant meets all the necessary criteria. to the Corston report. Wednesday 19 November 2008

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. ECOFIN ...... 87 Northern Ireland Assembly: Policing and Justice...... 90 Prostitution...... 91 EU: Education, Youth and Culture Council ...... 87 Railways: Accidents...... 92 Minimum Wage and Tipping...... 89 Taxation: Double Taxation...... 92

Wednesday 19 November 2008

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Agriculture: Bluetongue ...... 189 House of Lords: Reform...... 201

Agriculture: Upland Entry Level Scheme ...... 189 Housing ...... 202

Airports: Body Scanners...... 190 Housing: Right to Buy Scheme...... 202

Bangladesh: Elections ...... 190 India: Orissa ...... 202

Banking ...... 191 Inquiries: Northern Ireland...... 203

British Overseas Territories...... 192 Libya: Compensation...... 203

Central Office of Information: Expenditure...... 193 Malawi...... 204 New Forest National Park ...... 205 Chagos Islands...... 194 Parliamentary Ombudsman ...... 205 Community Cohesion...... 195 Pesticides ...... 205 Data Loss ...... 195 Police: Ethnic Minority Recruits...... 206 East Midlands Development Agency...... 196 Prisoners: Mental Health...... 207 Ecosystems ...... 197 Race Relations ...... 208 Energy: Gas Prices...... 197 Racism...... 208 Energy: National Grid ...... 197 Refineries: Carbon Dioxide Emissions...... 209 Energy: Oil Prices ...... 198 Russia: Human Rights...... 209 Ethnic Monitoring: Equality Outcomes...... 199 Schools: Academies ...... 210

European Arrest Warrant ...... 199 Sport: Swimming ...... 217

Government: Contractors...... 199 Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 219

Gypsies and Travellers ...... 200 Voluntary Organisations: Grants ...... 219

Health: Diabetes ...... 200 Voluntary Work: Young People...... 220

Healthcare: Clinical Physiology ...... 201 Women in Prison ...... 220 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. HL5305 ...... 204 HL5348 ...... 198 Col. No. Col. No. HL5375 ...... 209 HL6145 ...... 220

HL5520 ...... 192 HL6152 ...... 196

HL5666 ...... 197 HL6156 ...... 205

HL5765 ...... 202 HL6159 ...... 210

HL5792 ...... 198 HL6177 ...... 201

HL5793 ...... 197 HL6185 ...... 206

HL5871 ...... 205 HL6195 ...... 201

HL6029 ...... 189 HL6196 ...... 201

HL6065 ...... 194 HL6197 ...... 201

HL6066 ...... 204 HL6206 ...... 207

HL6071 ...... 203 HL6207 ...... 207

HL6074 ...... 189 HL6208 ...... 190 HL6222 ...... 199 HL6075 ...... 190 HL6224 ...... 208 HL6077 ...... 217 HL6231 ...... 200 HL6078 ...... 218 HL6232 ...... 200 HL6088 ...... 190 HL6269 ...... 208 HL6089 ...... 190 HL6275 ...... 205 HL6097 ...... 209 HL6296 ...... 197 HL6101 ...... 199 HL6297 ...... 195 HL6114 ...... 220 HL6315 ...... 191 HL6122 ...... 199 HL6318 ...... 202

HL6125 ...... 200 HL6333 ...... 200

HL6141 ...... 193 HL6347 ...... 195

HL6142 ...... 193 HL6350 ...... 202

HL6143 ...... 194 HL6352 ...... 219

HL6144 ...... 194 HL6388 ...... 219 Volume 705 Wednesday No. 161 19 November 2008

CONTENTS

Wednesday 19 November 2008 Questions Prisons: Drugs...... 1129 Prisoners: Indeterminate Sentences...... 1132 Higher Education: Student Funding ...... 1134 National Probation Service: Budget...... 1136 European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (2006 International Tropical Timber Agreement) Order 2008 ..... 1138 International Organization for Migration (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2008...... 1139 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2008...... 1139 Youth Justice Board for England and Wales (Amendment) Order 2008...... 1139 Legal Services Act 2007 (Functions of a Designated Regulator) Order 2008 Approved ...... 1139 Pensions Bill Third Reading ...... 1139 Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL] Commons Amendments ...... 1162 Emergency Services Question for Short Debate...... 1182 Written Statements...... WS 87 Written Answers...... WA 189