NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY

ASSEMBLY STANDING COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION

PUBLIC HEARING

CLIMATE CHANGE

Assembly Hearing Room 1923, 19th Floor

250 Broadway

New York, NY

May 17, 2019

11:00 a.m. - 7:00 p.m. Page 2 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

ASSEMBLY MEMBERS PRESENT:

ASSEMBLY MEMBER STEVE ENGLEBRIGHT -- Chair, Assembly Standing Committee on Environmental Conservation

ASSEMBLY MEMBER CHARLES LAVINE

ASSEMBLY MEMBER JO ANNE SIMON

ASSEMBLY MEMBER ROBERT CARROLL

ASSEMBLY MEMBER HARVEY EPSTEIN

ASSEMBLY MEMBER DEBORAH GLICK

ASSEMBLY MEMBER JUDY GRIFFIN

ASSEMBLY MEMBER BARBARA LIFTON

ASSEMBLY MEMBER DANIEL O’DONNELL

ASSEMBLY MEMBER STEVEN OTIS

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INDEX

Page PANEL 1: Priya L. Mulgaonkar 13 Resiliency Planner NYC Environmental Justice Alliance

Luz Velez 23 PUSH Buffalo member PUSH Buffalo

Adrien Salazar 23 Campaign Strategist Dēmos

PANEL 2: Fernando Ortiz 49 Climate Preparedness and Resiliency Organizer The POINT CDC

Leslie Velasquez 56 Environmental Justice Program Manager El Puente

PANEL 3: Daniel Gatti 68 Senior Transportation Analyst Union of Concerned Scientists

Cecil Scheib 76 Chief Sustainability Officer New York University

PANEL 4: Walter Hang 108 President Toxics Targeting

Elizabeth Moran 117 Environmental Policy Director NYPIRG

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Rachel Spector 124 Director, Environmental Justice Program New York Lawyers for the Public Interest

Stephan Edel 133 Project Director New York Working Families

PANEL 5: John Bartow 170 Executive Director Empire State Forest Products Assoc.

Darren Suarez 170 Senior Director of Government Affairs The Business Council of New York State

PANEL 6: Miles Farmer 214 Senior Attorney Natural Resources Defense Council

Julie Tighe 225 President New York League of Conservation Voters

Jessica Ottney Mahar 231 NY Policy Director The Nature Conservancy

Erin McGrath 238 Policy Manager Audubon NY

PANEL 7: Kate Boicourt 258 Director of Resilience Waterfront Alliance

Maggie Clarke, Ph.D. 264 Founder Zero Waste New York

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PANEL 8: Mark Dunlea 276 Chairperson Green Education and Legal Fund

Laura Haight 290 U.S. Policy Director Partnership for Policy Integrity

Eric Weltman 305 Senior Organizer Food & Water Watch

Rachel Goodgal 309 350 NYC

PANEL 9: Nella Pineda-Marcon, RN 314 Director at Large New York State Nurses Association

Edith Kantrowitz 317 Board Member United for Action

Peter Savio 327 Volunteer Citizens Climate Lobby - NY

Jason Gomez on Behalf of Chelsea Turner 337 Climate Justice Organizer UPROSE

PANEL 10: Catherine McVay Hughes 344 Board Member FDNA (Financial District Neighborhood Association)

Amy Rosmarin 358 Co-founder Stop the Algonquin Pipeline Expansion

Elizabeth Malone 370 Program Manager, Insurance & Resiliency Services Neighborhood Housing Services of Brooklyn CDC

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PANEL 11: Yurié Collins 378 Sunrise NYC Extinction Rebellion

Annie Wilson 378 Senior Energy Policy Advisor NY Environmental Law & Justice Project

Kyle Jeremiah 379 Communications Energy Vision

Arjang Jameh 405 Zeitgeist Movement

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2 (The public hearing commenced at 11:00

3 a.m.)

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER STEVE ENGLEBRIGHT,

5 CHAIR, ASSEMBLY STANDING COMMITTEE ON

6 ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION: Good morning and

7 welcome. Thank you for being here. This is our

8 hearing on the CCPA, the Community Climate

9 Protection Act. As we enter into the final days

10 of this session, I think the eyes of every

11 citizen in the state is upon this issue, as it

12 should be, as they should be watching what we

13 legislators are doing. And we should try to do

14 this right.

15 There’s unquestionably a moment in the

16 history of our species that we have just entered

17 that we have never seen before in terms of the

18 percent of the atmosphere that is carbon dioxide.

19 It is changing our climate. It is changing our

20 ocean. It is changing our weather patterns. It

21 threatens our way of life and we still we’re told

22 have perhaps as much as 11 years to deal with it.

23 Beyond that time, Katy bar the door, it’s going

24 to really be uncertain.

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2 So this is an important moment. The

3 federal government, I think, has let us down.

4 They not only are ignoring their climate

5 scientists, they’re firing them. They’re not only

6 doing that, they’re actually attempting to ramp

7 up the use of carbon-based fuels instead of

8 understanding that that is suicidal. It will

9 compromise our way of life as a state and a

10 nation.

11 My name is Steve Englebright. I’m the

12 chair of the New York State Assembly

13 Environmental Conservation Committee. As I

14 indicated, I’m delighted to see so many people

15 here and I really am very much looking forward to

16 hearing from each of you, and so I’m going to

17 keep my comments brief. But I also have a number

18 of colleagues here who might also, and I do hope,

19 will consider offering some of their thoughts.

20 Before I go to them and then to the main action

21 of the day, which is to hear from you, let me

22 just indicate that the purpose of today’s hearing

23 is intended to look at the question of how to

24 address climate change in a manner that protects

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2 disadvantaged communities, communities most at

3 risk from adverse impacts of climate change and

4 how to help ensure job transitions that result in

5 good paying jobs and worker protections.

6 This would include, of course, what role

7 if any carbon offsets should play, and that’s a

8 part of what we need to discuss here today, as

9 well as what and how would the term carbon

10 neutral be defined so that it would operate in

11 law as a mechanism to actually help us

12 decarbonizes the atmosphere.

13 We have a public hearing list that has a

14 mistake in it. I just want to indicate that the

15 witness list has been corrected for the

16 transcript. And we have two individuals, who I’ll

17 call up and while you’re settling in at the table

18 in front here, I’m going to call on my

19 colleagues, but let me first allow you to begin

20 to organize yourself toward the table. Priya

21 Mulgaonkar, the resiliency planner for the New

22 York City Environmental Justice Alliance and

23 Adrian Salazar, campaign strategist for Dēmos.

24 My colleagues include Dan O’Donnell, the

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2 Assembly member to my extreme left, Barbara

3 Lifton, Assembly Member Otis, myself, Assembly

4 Member Chuck Lavine, Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon,

5 and Assemblywoman Deborah Glick. Let me start

6 with Mr. O’Donnell and ask if you would like to

7 offer in I thoughts.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER DANIEL O’DONNELL: I’ll

9 pass. Thank you.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Okay.

11 Barbara?

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER BARBARA LIFTON: Just

13 very quickly, I think I read the other day we’re

14 at 415 parts per million of carbon in the

15 atmosphere, obviously well above the number that

16 scientists have been tell telling us for some

17 years is long-term habitable for the planet so

18 there is a great sense of urgency in the

19 legislature to act and get a state action plan

20 this year, climate action plan actually in law.

21 We need the public to help us with that, so

22 that’s part of why we are holding the hearing and

23 I hope that we get many, many people mobilizing

24 to make that happen in this session. Thank you.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you,

3 assemblywoman. Assemblyman Otis.

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER STEVEN OTIS: Just to

5 say thank you, Steve for hosting this hearing and

6 calling it and thank you all for coming. I’m

7 eager to hear everyone’s comments.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

9 very much. Assembly Member Lavine.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CHARLES LAVINE: Thank

11 you, Chairman Englebright and thanks as well to

12 Speaker Carl Heastie for pushing for this hearing

13 and thanks to all my colleagues here today and

14 each of you here today. So in the face of full

15 federal retreat from the reality of climate

16 change and the reality of the merging threats and

17 growing threats to our environment, it’s

18 absolutely necessary for the State of New York to

19 adopt legislation to deal with this emergency.

20 And this hearing is a major step in the right

21 direction with respect to the preparation and

22 formulation of that legislation. And again many,

23 many thanks for being here and how I wish we

24 didn’t have to be here. But each of us knows how

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2 much is at stake, so thank you all.

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

4 Assemblywoman Simon.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER JO ANNE SIMON: Thank

6 you, and thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding

7 this hearing. I am here to listen. I have worked

8 in the past in environmental justice and I’m very

9 concerned about how we move forward in a way that

10 is environmentally and economically just and

11 racially just with our environmental agenda. And

12 I’m just looking forward to hearing more from

13 people here about how we can do that, because we

14 need to do it and we need to make it work so

15 thank you very much.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

17 Deborah Glick.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER DEBORAH GLICK: Thank

19 you, just briefly, the news that koalas are now

20 functionally extinct is shocking anda direct

21 result of dramatic climate change. We not only

22 need to talk about the issue of carbon, but at

23 some point we’ve always shied away from it, but

24 we just have too many people on the planet and we

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2 have to start talking about population control at

3 some point, about allowing people to talk about

4 birth control and to provide contraceptives to

5 people who are seeking to limit their families.

6 Thank you very much and this should be very

7 interesting.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

9 I’d like to also call to the table Luz Velez,

10 Push Buffalo member. Thank you, Luz. Thank you,

11 Luz. Let’s begin with Priya Mulgaonkar,

12 resiliency planner for New York City

13 Environmental Justice Alliance. I would also

14 point out this hearing is unusual because we did

15 not attempt to get all of the agency bureaucracy

16 here first. They usually take an appropriate

17 amount of time to share information with us,

18 which is good, but the real focus today is the

19 people and you are the first among what we hope

20 is a representative cross-section of the people

21 of the state who will speak to us today. Please

22 begin.

23 MS. PRIYA L. MULGAONKAR, RESILIENCY

24 PLANNER, NYC ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE ALLIANCE:

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2 Great. Thank you Assemblyman Englebright, and

3 members of the New York State Senate

4 Environmental Conservation Committee. My name is

5 Priya Mulgaonkar and I am the resiliency planner

6 testifying on behalf of the New York City

7 Environmental Justice Alliance in support of the

8 New York State Climate and Community Protection

9 Act.

10 Founded in 1991, it’s a NYEJA is

11 nonprofit, citywide membership network linking

12 grassroots organizations from low income

13 communities and communities of color in their

14 struggle for environmental justice. Through our

15 efforts, member organizations coalesce around

16 issues that threaten the ability of low income

17 communities of color to thrive and coordinate

18 campaigns designed to restructure city and state

19 policies to move us toward a just future. Our

20 alliance is a key advocate of strong and

21 equitable renewable energy targets, as well as

22 emissions reductions efforts because many of the

23 communities we represent are overburdened by the

24 clustering of power plants and other polluting

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2 infrastructure in their neighborhoods.

3 In October 2018, the Intergovernmental

4 Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC, issued its

5 latest report, cautioning that the world may have

6 as little as 12 years, now 11 years to transform

7 the global economic system to limit global

8 warming to 1.5 Celsius. This will require rapid

9 system transitions in energy, urban

10 infrastructure and industrial systems, as well as

11 an unwavering commitment from New York State

12 government.

13 While New York State has made

14 commitments to reduce carbon emissions and

15 increase investments in climate resiliency,

16 progress so far has been slow to reach the low

17 income communities and communities of color

18 across the state. These neighborhoods also face

19 many obstacles to participating in the clean

20 energy economy. And current programs are

21 ultimately failing at systemically addressing the

22 root causes of energy insecurity and energy

23 poverty. The massive system change required to

24 stave off dangerous climate change impacts

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2 requires the consideration of the unique

3 vulnerabilities facing environmental justice

4 communities.

5 Climate justice is based on the

6 principle that frontline communities are most

7 vulnerable to climate change and therefore must

8 play an integral role in planning for the

9 renewable and regenerative energy economy. These

10 are communities where climate vulnerabilities

11 intersect with historic patterns of environmental

12 burdens. As climate change advances, leadership

13 from the frontlines of the crisis becomes

14 increasingly important to shape policies and to

15 ensure the radical transformation of our energy

16 and economic systems does not leave historically

17 marginalized people behind.

18 The Climate and Community Protection Act

19 includes several key provisions to support a just

20 transition to a clean and renewable energy

21 economy. These provisions were developed in

22 consultation with the New York Renews Coalition,

23 which includes groups that represent communities

24 around the state, from Brooklyn to the Bronx to

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2 Buffalo, with input from national experts and

3 broader New York stakeholders. The CCPA makes our

4 state climate and energy commitments legally

5 binding across all sectors including energy,

6 building, transportation, and sets us on a path

7 to 100 percent clean renewable energy by 2050.

8 A vital pillar of the CCPA is that it

9 creates a process to ensure that at least 40

10 percent of the state energy and climate funds are

11 allocated to vulnerable historically

12 disadvantaged frontline communities.

13 Disproportionate climate risks and energy burdens

14 can be ameliorated through equitable energy

15 policies and targeted strategic investments.

16 Solutions like community owned solar and energy

17 efficiency, along with workforce development and

18 public health efforts will be maximized by the

19 passage of the CCPA.

20 To ensure that we meet our energy

21 targets, the CCPA also requires that all state

22 agencies evaluate the climate and equity impacts

23 of their decisions to ensure that they’re

24 fulfilling these dual mandates. The CCPA also

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2 mandates that greenhouse gas emission reduction

3 requirements also address co-pollutants including

4 criteria pollutants and fine particulate matter

5 that impact disadvantaged communities.

6 Another aspect that makes the CCPA the

7 most ambitious climate legislation in the nation

8 is that it sets New York on a path to 100 percent

9 reduction of anthropogenic greenhouse gas

10 emissions by 2050. This is distinct from the

11 carbon neutral approach, which we feel is a false

12 solution being proposed that would undermine

13 climate justice in New York State.

14 I want to take this opportunity to

15 express our strong concerns about the efficacy

16 and equity of mechanisms that have been proposed

17 to achieve, quote, carbon neutrality, including

18 cap and trade offsets and other carbon trading

19 mechanisms in both lowering emissions and

20 protecting environmental justice communities from

21 carrying the burden of fossil fuel pollution.

22 From an environmental and climate

23 justice perspective, carbon neutral is

24 problematic for several reasons. A carbon neutral

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2 economy may create loopholes that set back New

3 York’s efforts to address climate change,

4 including promoting offsets for carbon emissions

5 that might actually result in a net increase in

6 air pollution. Relying on carbon offsets to

7 achieve our emissions reductions can perpetuate

8 the disproportionate pollution impacts on

9 communities of color in New York State. A

10 polluter could invest in reforestation hundreds

11 of miles or even continents away to, quote,

12 offset the carbon they release into the

13 atmosphere while doing nothing to alleviate the

14 root cause of asthma attacks, lung disease and

15 other harms facing New York’s environmental

16 justice communities. We cannot allow polluters to

17 privatize nature and plant trees in Brazil so

18 they can continue to poison air in the Bronx.

19 Burning fossil fuels does not just emit

20 carbon. It emits co-pollutants, toxins that don’t

21 directly cause global warming but do cause

22 asthma, smog and cardiac illness. Carbon offsets

23 will only cover carbon and does not address the

24 co-pollutants that the CCPA’s current version

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2 will seek to address.

3 Committing to carbon neutrality rather

4 than 100 percent emissions reductions could also

5 allow New York State to procrastinate on emission

6 reduction goals. Carbon offsets could allow

7 polluters to continue consuming fossil fuels at

8 untenable rates while benefiting from loopholes

9 in an carbon offset market that could lead to a

10 net increase in greenhouse gas pollution.

11 Regardless of the number of trees we plant, we

12 cannot continue to burn fossil fuels at our

13 current rate without dire consequences for the

14 planet and for environmental justice communities

15 at the frontline of fossil fuel infrastructure.

16 We believe in nature based solutions and

17 investing in carbon sinks, but it should not come

18 at the expense of reducing emissions at the

19 source. We need New York State climate policy to

20 truly move us to a just transition, meaning that

21 our reliance on the current extractive economy is

22 completely rolled back.

23 We already see the pitfalls of carbon

24 offsets playing out in California’s carbon

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2 trading system. A recent study shows that the

3 program leans heavily on carbon offset credits.

4 And as a result, the state may have overstated

5 their emissions reductions by 80 million tons of

6 carbon dioxide, which is a third of the total

7 cuts that the state’s cap and trade program was

8 expected to achieved in the next decade. The

9 findings are troubling, given that California’s

10 cap and trade program is critical aspect of that

11 state’s effort to rollback greenhouse gas

12 emissions.

13 Scientists agree that eliminating

14 greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 is

15 technologically feasible. For activities we do

16 not yet have the solutions to achieve zero

17 emissions, the Climate and Community Protection

18 Act currently provides the needed flexibility to

19 address those activities over the next 30 years

20 with new technological developments.

21 For example, the bill requires

22 implementation recording every four years that

23 includes assessment of regulations and whether

24 modifications are needed, as well as

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2 recommendations for future regulatory and policy

3 action. The CCPA also encourages natural

4 sequestration strategies to help reduce emissions

5 even further without authorizing an offset market

6 associated with those activities that could

7 enable continuing pollution.

8 The bottom line is this. We’ve seen the

9 devastation that worsening super storms have

10 brought to Houston, to Florida, Puerto Rico and

11 here in New York City, and we cannot wait any

12 longer to act. Our health, our economy, our

13 communities are at risk and we need to enact the

14 boldest approach to addressing the climate crisis

15 as soon as possible.

16 We commend the State Assembly for

17 elevating and prioritizing the Climate and

18 Community Protection Act. New York State must

19 support clean renewable energy that protects our

20 health and creates new green jobs. We need to put

21 the health of our communities and our state ahead

22 of polluters’ profits and our outdated and

23 dangerous dependency on fossil fuels. Thank you

24 for the opportunity to testify.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

3 for your testimony. [applause] Thank you very

4 much. Adrien Salazar, campaign strategist, Démos.

5 MR. ADRIEN SALAZAR, CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST,

6 DĒMOS: Thank you, assembly member. I

7 respectfully act if my colleague, Luz Velez could

8 speak before me.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: But of

10 course. Please.

11 MS. LUZ VELEZ, PUSH BUFFALO MEMBER, PUSH

12 BUFFAL: Thank you.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: State your

14 name for the record, please.

15 MS. VELEZ: Yes, I will. Good afternoon.

16 My name is Luz Velez. I thank you for giving me a

17 voice at this very important hearing. I’m a

18 resident of Buffalo, New York, and a proud member

19 of Push Buffalo, which is a grassroots community-

20 based organization on the west side of our city.

21 I’m here today to urge all of you and your

22 colleagues in state government to support the

23 passage of the Climate and Community Protection

24 Act as it is right now, I hope you will hear what

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2 I’m really trying to say. I’m not a statistician,

3 I’m just regular folk, okay.

4 I moved to Buffalo in 1980 in pursuit of

5 a degree at Buffalo State College. I graduated in

6 ‘85 with a Bachelor of Science in Social Work and

7 minor in Afro-American History. That same year, I

8 worked myself up, okay. That same year, I became

9 a full time senior services director at Hispanics

10 United of Buffalo, one of the biggest Hispanic

11 agencies, but when I was there, it was just

12 getting started so that tells you how long it has

13 been going on.

14 In ‘93, I had my son Philippe and I

15 became a single mom. Five years later, I bought

16 my first and only home, the one that I currently

17 live in. After moving nine times from unhealthy

18 and toxic apartments, I figured I had to buy a

19 house because my family said they weren’t going

20 to move me anymore so it had to be a permanent

21 place, you know?

22 And then in 2006, I became seriously ill

23 and I was medically retired, when they could do

24 those kinds of things, okay. Throughout my entire

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2 adult life, residing on the west side, I lived in

3 close proximity to the Peace Bridge, which is an

4 international commerce crossing for most of the

5 trucks and larger vehicles traveling between the

6 United States and Canada. So I didn’t live too

7 far from the bridge, and as a result I was

8 exposed to diesel truck emissions all the time.

9 And even though at times when the vehicles

10 emissions were a little more relaxed, okay, over

11 the years, I started to -- and I’m sorry if I

12 have to stop and breathe in the mic -- it’s a

13 little hard sometimes.

14 Over the years, I started developing a

15 lot of non-descript respiratory and lung

16 infections, which sometimes left me wondering,

17 okay, is it just a cold, am I just predisposed to

18 colds and allergies? But as my health

19 deteriorated, I received from my doctors a six-

20 month diagnosis to a year of life expectancy. In

21 that state of depression quickly settling in and

22 I physically and emotionally and spiritually,

23 really lost my voice. I don’t know if it was

24 psychosomatic but I just, I could not speak. My

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2 doctors determined the source of the infection

3 was environmental factors due to mold and air

4 pollution.

5 Due to my health conditions and

6 accompanying financial hardship, after losing my

7 job resulting from not being employable and

8 working two full time jobs and the loss of wage

9 and being a single mom, my house fell into

10 disarray and disrepair. And it’s not that poor

11 people don’t want to fix their houses or make bad

12 neighbors. It’s just sometimes the economic

13 feasibility is just not there for us.

14 So I experienced a lot of shame and

15 embarrassment. I feared losing my home because at

16 the time, most people know about gentrification,

17 but it was really happening strong in Buffalo.

18 And there was a disinvestment in my area. So I

19 was scared, because of the failing health and I

20 was scared that I was not going to pass some kind

21 of safety or health inspection. So I also feared

22 losing my kid. So, you know, when you see all

23 those things, you get quiet, you don’t want to

24 talk. You isolate yourself and it became very

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2 devastating for my health, my home and my

3 humanity.

4 Then one day, I heard over the radio

5 about Push Buffalo’s warm and dry program and

6 roof repair program and that was on a Saturday.

7 So I was really excited. I couldn’t wait until

8 Monday so I could call and find out and get some

9 help. And I didn’t have to. Thank God, what ended

10 up happening was there happened to be a canvasser

11 in the area and they happened to be from Push and

12 they came in and I decided to get up enough

13 courage to just kind of even whisper that I

14 needed help.

15 In so doing, I was able to make an

16 appointment, they sent an assessor into my house

17 to assess the conditions and I did the paperwork,

18 found all the papers because I had them all

19 organized and I was put on a waiting list for

20 services. I’ll never forget the day that they

21 called me on the phone and I learned that it

22 would be a matter of weeks before the contractors

23 would enter my home to assess the problem and to

24 work. But Push had the solutions. And I found

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2 out. Most people don’t find out. Most people --

3 language inaccessibility, but I was one of the

4 lucky ones because they were able to really save

5 and extend my life and save my home.

6 When the contractors arrived, and they

7 did my assessment, they were quick to tell me

8 that I had some really serious problems. I kind

9 of knew, but I’m not a contractor, so I had an

10 office in the back of the house. Well, I hadn’t

11 been there in like three years because if you’re

12 not working, you don’t need an office. So when we

13 went in there, it turns out that the roof had

14 collapsed. And I’m a little hard of hearing so I

15 don’t hear a whole lot of stuff. Because of the

16 roof damage, there was black mold throughout the

17 back of the house. And of course it had permeated

18 the walls and into the HVAC, you know, the vents

19 and what have you, system.

20 So then I found out I needed a new

21 furnace. My existing furnace hadn’t been serviced

22 since 1972. So we are talking past 2006, 2007. So

23 that’s a lot of time, but if it ain’t broke,

24 don’t fix it and I wasn’t worrying about it. They

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2 found out I really needed a hot water heater and

3 when I bought the house, you know, you’re just so

4 happy to find a place that you can call home, you

5 know, with the amenities that you need, I never

6 thought about insulation. I just assumed all

7 houses had insulation. But I didn’t realize that

8 Buffalo, having one of the oldest housing stocks,

9 some houses were built and some additions were

10 made and those things weren’t put in. So for

11 years I had been suffering from a cold house with

12 high heating and electrical bills from using

13 portable heaters. I even went as far as to get

14 kerosene and use a kerosene heater, which wasn’t

15 really good for my air quality. But you do what

16 you got to do to keep your kid warm.

17 The bathtub on the second floor had

18 caused extensive water damage and rot in my

19 kitchen ceiling, so I had that coming down, too.

20 On top of that, because of water damage, there

21 was plaster crumbling down the walls into the

22 staircase. So, I stayed on the first floor, slept

23 in the living room. I didn’t even go upstairs,

24 other than to clean, you know, superficially

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2 clean, because it’s nobody up there but my kid. I

3 wasn’t worried about it. So to say the least, it

4 was a hot mess.

5 All of these issues contributed to my

6 respiratory problems, put my mental health at

7 risk and threatened my life. As it was, Push

8 Buffalo provided me a real holistic approach to

9 how they healed my home and me. They made me feel

10 comfortable in choosing a contractor. I had a

11 voice in making decisions for myself. And they

12 looked like me. And they were from my community

13 and they made me feel comfortable in my own home

14 and they didn’t judge me. I didn’t feel the shame

15 I was feeling.

16 So Push spent a lot of time talking and

17 listening to me. They helped me to find my

18 dignity, my inner strength and my voice again.

19 And now they can’t shut me up. With the repairs

20 that they did, I went from seeing four doctors

21 down to two and from taking 12 medications down

22 to four. And that’s a lot, because when you have

23 only room for so much medication, you really

24 don’t try to eat too much because it’s an upset

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2 stomach kind of thing. I’m sure you folks know

3 with ulcers and everything that comes by you,

4 sometimes, you just don’t feel like eating.

5 As the project was winding down, I

6 started going to the Push meetings and I learned

7 about environmental racism and the factors

8 outside of my control and systemic oppression

9 that people of color live in, in low income

10 communities and how we often face a lot of fear.

11 So I began to understand how I was

12 disproportionately exposed to pollution in my

13 community from the diesel truck emissions as well

14 as toxic conditions in my house that exacerbated

15 my lack of searching for quality healthcare

16 options and having a lack of money, capital, you

17 know , you don’t find the best quality

18 healthcare.

19 These and other environmental factors

20 that I was exposed to led my doctors to wonder if

21 in fact I was suffering from some form of cancer.

22 I’ve come to learn more recently that in Erie

23 County where I’m from, home to nearly 50,000

24 Latinx people like me, the cancer risk from

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2 hazardous air pollution is 30 percent higher for

3 people of color compared to white or Euro people,

4 and exposure to air polluting facilities is

5 approximately 2.8 times greater for people of

6 color.

7 I look at it this way. There is a

8 systemic problem, okay, systemic. My root of the

9 word is system. We need to fix the system and

10 look at considering what our needs are. I’ve

11 recently seen and heard some of our so-called

12 climate champions in New York favoring a carbon

13 neutrality and offset solution to the climate and

14 environmental crisis that I experience, I live

15 with every day. I wake up hoping that I wake up

16 because I can breathe, and make it through the

17 day. Now with these, the change in the climate

18 and the heat and the cold, you know, the

19 extremes, carbon neutrality, are you kidding me?

20 You know, not on my watch. How is this supposed

21 to help me? I’m already affected, okay. So it’s

22 not going to change any and I may not be here by

23 the time we see this enacted, because it will be

24 enacted, because we rely and depend on you to

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2 please be our champions and pass this as is.

3 So now is not the time for anybody to

4 think about neutrality, when people are sick and

5 dying, our communities are ravaged by severe

6 weather impacts. And the future awaits our

7 children and grandchildren is being sacrificed

8 for the short-term profits of corporate

9 polluters. I’m not making any money off of this,

10 okay. I don’t think any of you people are making

11 any money off of this. But somebody is, okay, at

12 the risk of people like me, your children, your

13 grandchildren and the people here.

14 So we need a just transition to zero

15 emissions, 100 percent renewable energy economy.

16 Yeah, for real, we need that now. [applause] I’ve

17 also heard some of our carbon champions in New

18 York State believe we can solve the climate

19 crisis while ignoring environmental justice and

20 racial equality. I am racial equality, okay. I

21 sit here in front of you and I tell you things

22 have not been right but I’m not blaming anybody

23 but we need to make a change. So I refuse to be

24 ignored. My community refuses to be ignored. I am

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2 not going to be silent anymore until my last

3 breath. I will not be silenced anymore.

4 So the CCPA would commit 40 percent of

5 the climate and Clean Energy Funding to

6 communities like mine and for people to look like

7 me and the people who need the justice that we

8 were denied, okay, who have paid their fair

9 share. Like I said, I work two jobs, paid taxes,

10 did my income tax, where some of your one percent

11 don’t even do that, I had to pay. But I’m still

12 paying. So I want a fair share of a system that’s

13 going to work for us. It’s a no brainer, okay,

14 since our community makes up 40 percent of the

15 state’s population, justice and equality can’t be

16 negotiated, not on my watch.

17 Recently Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown

18 declared my city to be a climate refuge. And last

19 month The New York Times, you can look it up, The

20 New York Times wrote an article entitled, “Want

21 to Escape Global Warming, These Cities Offer Cool

22 Relief”, praising Buffalo as a destination where

23 climate refugees will be welcome as the climate

24 crisis worsens. In my mind, Mayor Brown, who I

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2 went to school with, okay, so I have a little

3 insight into him, and the author of the article

4 weren’t talking about the nearly 10,000 Puerto

5 Ricans, which I happen to be one of, and

6 indigenous descent were displaced by Hurricane

7 Maria who forced to resettle my community under

8 dire circumstances and not receiving the support

9 that they deserved.

10 Rather, their view on climate migration

11 would seem to favor the investor class, those who

12 are financially able to move and who would arrive

13 into my community looking to take advantage of

14 cheap land, housing and abundant fresh water

15 resources. So without addressing justice and

16 equality as the CCPA legislation would do,

17 climate solutions and climate migration will

18 threaten underrepresented people like me who will

19 be at greater risk of gentrification and

20 displacement. We will fall through the cracks.

21 Okay.

22 And we cannot be silenced anymore. I

23 refuse to be silenced anymore. My community

24 refuses. We need to pass the CCPA, pass it now

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2 and because I was able to get my voice back, I’ve

3 organized some elderly people in my community and

4 we have become Push Silver because we’re not

5 gray. We bedazzle people, okay, with what we say,

6 and what we do and what we’re capable of doing.

7 So what we are doing is we are giving the elders

8 a voice. I hope that you will hear me and I thank

9 you very much. [applause]

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

11 very much and thank you for traveling this

12 diagonal across the state in order to be with us

13 today.

14 MS. VELEZ: Thank you.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

16 very much. Adrien, would you like to speak now?

17 Adrien Salazar campaign strategist for Démos.

18 MR. SALAZAR: Thank you, assembly

19 member. Thank you, Luz and thank you Priya, for

20 sharing your very powerful stories. Assembly

21 Member Englebright and other honorable members of

22 the Assembly, thank you for this opportunity to

23 share testimony today on what is one of the most

24 critical issues of our time. My name is Adrien

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2 Salazar, I an immigrant from the Philippines,

3 raised in California and now living in Washington

4 Heights, here in Manhattan. I’m a campaign

5 strategist for Démos, a racial and economic

6 justice policy organization. We advocate for

7 economic justice, racial equity, and democratic

8 empowerment.

9 And in my work, I’m committed to

10 ensuring that policy solutions we enact to

11 address the climate crisis are also building a

12 more just and equitable society. This is why we

13 at Démos support the Climate and Community

14 Protection Act, what we see as one of the boldest

15 climate bills in the country that addresses

16 climate, jobs and justice.

17 The scale and severity of the climate

18 crisis is clear and present for thousands of New

19 Yorkers and millions of people around the world.

20 From super storms like Sandy to hurricanes in the

21 gulf south, wildfires in California, to the

22 recent deluges devastating farms in Nebraska and

23 villages in Mozambique, climate change is

24 disrupting livelihoods and is for many life or

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2 death.

3 I was born in the Central Philippines, a

4 hot spot for typhoons in 2008, my hometown was

5 struck by Typhoon Fengshen, flooding the entire

6 region and leaving people without electricity for

7 weeks. In 2014, the world witnessed the deadliest

8 storm on record, Typhoon Haiyan, leveled the city

9 in the Tacloban in the Central Philippines.

10 This is the reality of climate crisis

11 today. In New York, we witnessed Hurricane Sandy

12 disrupt thousands of lives, cause dozens of

13 deaths and nearly $33 billion in damages for the

14 state. The climate crisis is palpable for many of

15 us, and as the recent U.N. Report on preventing

16 over 1.5 degree Celsius global warming

17 demonstrated, the window for acting is getting

18 narrower and narrower.

19 New York is one of the top ten carbon

20 emitting states in the country and we here must

21 do our part to reverse the climate crisis by

22 passing the strongest climate proposal we can to

23 drive down the state’s carbon emissions while

24 protect protecting the communities most

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2 vulnerable to climate change. The CCPA is that

3 proposal. It would be the boldest climate law a

4 state has passed in the country, not only because

5 it sets the state on a path of aggressive

6 emission reduction, but also because it tackles

7 the inequity faced by communities that bear the

8 disproportionate burden of pollution and the

9 impacts of climate change, communities like the

10 one that Luz lives in.

11 Climate change affects everyone, but it

12 does not affect everybody equally. As a result of

13 historic discrimination and disinvestment in

14 communities of color and low income communities,

15 there are neighborhoods in the state that breathe

16 more toxic air than others. Black and brown

17 communities in particular face a double-edged

18 sword. We bear the brunt of not only the

19 pollution of the fossil fuel-based economy but

20 also are more vulnerable to climate change

21 impacts.

22 New York must protect vulnerable

23 populations from the extreme impacts of climate

24 change and ensure that no community is left

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2 behind in the transition to a renewable energy

3 economy. In fact, we can build resilience to

4 climate impacts, reduce our emissions and

5 reinvest in communities while tackling racial and

6 economic justice simultaneously as we build the

7 next economy.

8 We can design policy to address climate

9 risks and equity and before the legislature

10 today, we have a bill that does this in the

11 Climate and Community Protection Act. The CCPA is

12 not just a climate bill. It is also a racial

13 justice bill. It is a public health bill. It is

14 an economic development bill. In addition to

15 calling for an economy wide reduction of all

16 greenhouse gas emissions in the state, it also

17 directs 40 percent of state funds for achieving

18 renewable energy targets to disadvantaged

19 communities. It creates an equity screen that

20 would assess equity impacts of rules, aspects and

21 other policy implementation. The bill requires

22 the state to identify barriers to access to

23 renewable energy and energy efficiency programs

24 and it requires consideration of not just carbon

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2 emissions but also associated co-pollutants which

3 contribute to public health risks like asthma.

4 The bill requires strong employment and

5 contracting standards, including apprenticeship

6 opportunities and prevailing wage for jobs

7 created through achieving emissions reductions.

8 For all these reasons, the bill is

9 ambitious and centering equity for a just

10 economic transition, creating jobs for working

11 families and investing in communities most in

12 need. By supporting the communities most affected

13 by fossil fuel pollution and climate change

14 impacts, we improve air quality, public health

15 and the economy for all New Yorkers.

16 The final version of the this bill must

17 maintain these standards of equity and in so

18 doing can send a signal to the rest of the

19 country that addressing climate change means also

20 building an economy that leaves no community

21 behind.

22 An economy wide target of achieving zero

23 emissions is not only feasible but necessary. It

24 is necessary if we are to address climate change

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2 at the scale of the crisis in order to prevent

3 catastrophic climate impacts, we need to rapidly

4 decarbonize the economy. And to achieve this

5 equitably, we must reduce emissions at the

6 source.

7 The governor has suggested that a carbon

8 neutral or net zero emissions target is necessary

9 to give the state and industry flexibility to

10 meet targets. This is neither bold nor ambitious.

11 Setting a goal for zero emissions 30 years from

12 now can send a signal to industry to accelerate

13 innovation required to bring all sectors to zero

14 emissions. New York can set the standard for

15 bringing emissions to zero that other states

16 around the country will follow.

17 Secondly, a carbon neutral emissions

18 reduction regime that enables carbon negative

19 technology and carbon offsets to meet these

20 targets inherently creates risks for emissions to

21 persist in communities already burdened by

22 pollution. Polluting infrastructure like power

23 plants, cement producers, transportation and

24 other carbon intensive sectors are

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2 disproportionately located in low income

3 communities and communities of color.

4 We can’t allow industries to bypass

5 targets by investing in carbon credits or offsets

6 generated by carbon negative technology and

7 practices because this does not result in

8 emissions reduction at the source. Carbon offsets

9 also do not reduce dangerous co-pollutants that

10 cause respiratory and other diseases. A carbon

11 neutral emissions reduction target effectively

12 would require the creation of a carbon credit or

13 offset market for New York, a system that we know

14 fails in achieving emission reductions at the

15 source.

16 A 2018 study of California’s cap and

17 trade program that hinges on carbon credits found

18 that in the period of 2011 to 2015, facilities

19 regulated under the program were located

20 disproportionately in disadvantaged neighborhoods

21 and that co-pollutants from these facilities and

22 these regions correlated with greenhouse gas

23 emissions. In California’s carbon trading system,

24 polluters can pay for the emissions through

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2 various market instruments such as allowances and

3 offsets instead of reducing emissions. The market

4 flexibility this alleged to provide for emissions

5 reduction, the studies showed in fact resulted in

6 emission increases in communities already

7 disproportionately exposed to air pollution. The

8 study found that these facilities resulted in

9 higher local emissions during the study period,

10 demonstrating a system based on offsets does not

11 result in local improvements with respect to

12 harmful emissions and can lead to an increase in

13 inequitable health outcomes for already pollution

14 burdened communities.

15 In plain terms, carbon offsets or

16 credits create pollution hot spots. They do not

17 decrease local emissions, and as this study

18 found, can allow the increase of local pollution.

19 The argument for carbon neutrality suggests the

20 need for flexibility for industry, but this is a

21 red hearing. Carbon negative technology, carbon

22 credit systems and carbon offsets carry the risk

23 of violating the health of communities burdened

24 by pollution.

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2 The CCPA already has flexibility

3 designed into the bill, with a requirement of

4 implementation evaluation every four years, with

5 recommendations for adjustments of targets and

6 future actions. These targets can be adjusted as

7 a technology accelerates and as we assess what

8 the impacts communities are the state

9 transitioning to a renewable energy economy.

10 Setting a target for achieving zero

11 emissions can jump start a national conversation

12 of what is actually required to decarbonize the

13 economy and that we can accelerate research,

14 development and investment in the technology

15 needed to achieve this goal.

16 Lastly, I would like to emphasize that

17 directing 40 percent of investments to

18 disadvantaged communities is a critical element

19 to achieving equitable outcomes as the state

20 reduces emissions. As previously mentioned,

21 polluting facilities and infrastructure are

22 disproportionately located in historically low

23 income communities and communities of color.

24 These communities also tend to be the same

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2 communities most vulnerable to the impacts of

3 climate change.

4 Renewable energy investment in the state

5 can spark economic development, build local

6 wealth and resilience. Reducing pollution and

7 carbon emissions in frontline communities can

8 create growth and can redress historic

9 discrimination and disinvestment, as well as

10 build the renewable energy economy.

11 California set its own target for

12 investment of greenhouse gas reduction funds in

13 disadvantaged communities at 25 percent and it

14 found, as the years progressed that as they

15 monitored their investments, that the state was

16 actually exceeding this target. They ended up

17 investing over 50 percent of funds in vulnerable

18 communities because projects in these communities

19 resulted in the most effective emissions

20 reductions for the state.

21 The CCPA directs investments to generate

22 thousands, tens of thousands of good jobs as the

23 state expands energy efficiency, renewable

24 energy, clean transportation and infrastructure

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2 improvements. An analysis by my organization,

3 Démos, has found that the CCPA would generate an

4 average of 150,000 jobs in the first decade

5 alone. If you also counted induced jobs created

6 by increased purchasing power, total employment

7 statewide would be approximately 220,000

8 additional jobs initially.

9 Investment will create an estimated

10 $13.8 billion in income for New Yorkers, $138

11 billion over a decade. Simply put, the CCPA can

12 drive an economic revolution in the state, and by

13 targeting a significant portion of investment in

14 disadvantaged communities, we can also

15 dramatically reduce income and economic

16 inequality.

17 In conclusion, the CCPA is an ambitious

18 bill in its climate and equity goals, one that

19 can and is serving as a model for other states in

20 the country. In just the last few months, several

21 states have passed or are considering clean and

22 renewable energy sector targets. If passed, the

23 CCPA could set a new standard for tackling

24 emission reductions economy wide, not just the

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2 energy sector, including industries that we may

3 find challenging in the present moment. We can

4 send a signal to other states across the country

5 and to industry that we are ready to enact what

6 is necessary to reverse the climate crisis. And

7 that means every sector of society must be part

8 of the solutions.

9 New York State must not shy away from a

10 target of reducing emissions to zero economy

11 wide. We must invest in communities and make sure

12 that we reduce the risks of pollution and climate

13 change on those who are most burdened. We can

14 rise to the challenge and the opportunity of the

15 climate crisis to build a more just and equitable

16 society while protecting our most vulnerable

17 communities and the CCPA sets the path for New

18 York State to lead the way. Thank you assembly

19 member. [Applause]

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

21 very much. Before we say thank you to these

22 panelists and bring in the next group, are there

23 any questions for members of the panel here on

24 this side? I just want to say thank you. Your

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2 words are meritorious in not only the composition

3 but also the message. Thank you very, very much.

4 MS. MULGAONKAR: Thank you.

5 MS. VELEZ: Thank you.

6 MR. SALAZAR: Thank you very much.

7 [applause]

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I’d like to

9 call Fernando Ortiz, climate preparedness

10 resiliency organizer for The Point CDC, and

11 Leslie Velasquez, environmental justice program

12 manager, El Puente. Welcome. Who would like to go

13 first?

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: State your

15 name for the record, please.

16 MR. FERNANDO ORTIZ, CLIMATE PREPAREDNESS

17 AND RESILIENCY ORGANIZER, THE POINT CDC: My name

18 is Fernando Ortiz and I’m here on behalf of The

19 Point. Thank you for having us here today. I’m

20 the climate preparedness and resiliency organizer

21 for The Point CDC. I’m here today to call on the

22 state of New York to take bold action on climate

23 change and to prioritize frontline communities

24 through the passage of the Climate and Community

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2 Protection Act. I represent the community of

3 Hunts Point, which is in the South Bronx

4 significant maritime industrial area, an area

5 zoned for its heavy industrial and maritime use,

6 one of six in New York City. The Hunts Point

7 Peninsula is also home to the Hunts Point Food

8 Distribution Center, which is a major economic

9 hub supporting over 25,000 jobs and $55 billion

10 in economic activity each year.

11 In addition to the food markets, the

12 neighborhood includes a whole host of industrial

13 businesses and is considered an environmental

14 justice community of over 13,000 residents. The

15 neighborhood is also a low income community of

16 color, where 41 percent of the total population

17 lives below the federal poverty line. Since the

18 area is industrial in nature, there are many

19 examples of facilities handling, storing or

20 transporting hazardous substances or toxic

21 chemicals located in the storm surge zones, as

22 well as in very close proximity to the food

23 distribution center which could represent a

24 significant threat in the event of severe

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2 weather.

3 Imagine what could happen if these

4 substances compromised the food supply chain of

5 all of New York City, as well as the potential

6 threat to a community with a vulnerable

7 population grappling with public health issues

8 and extreme poverty. Residents and workers in

9 these neighborhoods suffer the negative health

10 effects associated with undue environmental

11 burdens, traffic fatalities, lack of open space

12 and disproportionately high rates of asthma,

13 obesity, diabetes and heart disease, while

14 ironically, lacking access to fresh food.

15 The area’s vulnerability to sea level

16 rise and flooding presents a tremendous risk to

17 both the residents, the 50,000 residents

18 surrounding this area and millions of people

19 dependent on the food markets.

20 Hunts Point residents are victims of

21 spatial inequalities and structural violence such

22 as massive highways, known as the Toxic Triangle,

23 which includes the Bruckner, Sheridan, Bronx

24 River and Cross Bronx Expressway that bypass and

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2 border our communities, our lack of waterfront

3 access and green spaces, zoning policies that

4 favor heavy industrial activity and the unfair

5 amount of waste handling that occurs in these

6 areas, as the South Bronx manages 32 percent of

7 New York City’s waste within it 15 transfer

8 stations.

9 Climate change is predicted to a rise in

10 temperatures and sea level, both direct threats

11 to Hunts Point and the South Bronx. Hunts Point

12 suffers from extreme heat and has been identified

13 as a heat vulnerable community. The average

14 surface temperature in August for Hunts Point is

15 98 and due to high industrial activity in these

16 communities, they suffer great issues around the

17 urban heat island effect.

18 The mean annual temperature is expected

19 to increase by 2050 by four to fix degrees

20 Fahrenheit and heat waves are expected to average

21 between six and eight per year. Some people say

22 that 40 percent is too high and or will take

23 funds away from the renewable projects that we

24 need.

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2 If we want to reduce pollution, we need

3 to spend in frontline communities. We need

4 significant investment to meet the needs of New

5 York’s disadvantaged communities, like residents

6 of the South Bronx who have for too long been

7 victims of environmental racism.

8 Forty-two percent of New Yorkers are

9 people of color, 44 percent of New York’s

10 households earn under $50,000 per year. Demanding

11 40 percent of funds allocated to those who suffer

12 the most of the fossil fuel economy is considered

13 a just amount.

14 The CCPA currently calls for eliminating

15 all greenhouse gas emissions. We are hearing that

16 the governor wants to move to a carbon neutral

17 standard rather than a zero emissions standard.

18 We’re concerned about changing the CCPA to have

19 it set to a carbon neutrality standard rather

20 than a zero emissions standard because carbon

21 offsets do not reduce pollution in frontline low

22 income and communities of color throughout New

23 York State.

24 Polluting infrastructure is

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2 disproportionately sighted in low income

3 communities and communities of color. To have

4 climate justice, we must remove pollution at the

5 source. We should not allow a power plant in the

6 Bronx to quote, unquote, offset their carbon

7 emissions by planting trees or investing in a

8 wind farm upstate because Bronx residents will

9 continue to breathe the dirty air.

10 Burning fossil fuels does not just emit

11 carbon. It also emits co-pollutants, toxins that

12 don’t directly cause global warming but that do

13 cause asthma, smog, respiratory and cardiac

14 illnesses. Carbon offsets are for carbon only and

15 don’t address the co-pollutants poisoning New

16 York communities like the South Bronx.

17 Despite the many challenges that Hunts

18 Point faces, we are resilient, we are tough and

19 we are at the forefront of our own climate

20 solutions and just transition. The Point, through

21 the South Bronx community resiliency agenda has

22 established community led climate resiliency

23 plans and solutions like the Be a Buddy Program

24 that aims to build social cohesion and climate

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2 health awareness and education for those most

3 vulnerable in our Hunts Point and Longwood

4 community.

5 Hunts Point Community Solar, a program

6 which addresses the community’s longstanding

7 energy burden and Hunts Point Free Wi-Fi, which

8 is a network that can provide resilient

9 communication even in the peril of a climate

10 related emergency like a storm.

11 We see the CCPA as an innovative

12 solution since it aims to set aside 40 percent of

13 the state’s Clean Energy Funds to be reinvested

14 in frontline environmental justice and

15 disadvantaged communities. The equity provisions

16 of the bill make it the most progressive climate

17 legislation in the country, because at its heart,

18 the CCPA is about racial, climate and

19 environmental justice.

20 As we demonstrated, communities like

21 Hunts Point are disproportionally overburdened by

22 climate change. We are calling on you to work

23 with us and the many other communities calling

24 for justice and to take long overdue action

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2 through the passage of the CCPA. A Bronx child

3 should no longer have to breathe dirty air and be

4 continuously exposed to pollution while other

5 children a few miles away enjoy clean air. Thank

6 you for your time. [applause]

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

8 Leslie Velasquez, environmental justice program

9 manager, El Puente.

10 MS. LESLIE VELASQUEZ, ENVIRONMENTAL

11 JUSTICE PROGRAM MANAGER, EL PUENTE: Hello. My

12 name is Leslie Velasquez, as Steve just

13 mentioned. I manage the environmental justice

14 program at El Puente. El Puente is a community

15 based organization that serves the Latinx

16 communities of color in Williamsburg, Southside

17 and Bushwick. Since our founding in 1982, we have

18 been a leader for environmental justice in our

19 community and are a founding member of the New

20 York City Environmental Justice Alliance.

21 As representatives of environmental

22 justice communities, we strongly support the

23 CCPA. The CCPA mandates that 40 percent of

24 climate funding go to communities like ours, low

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2 income, frontline communities of color, which are

3 hit hardest by climate change and environmental

4 degradation. However, this equity provision is

5 under attack by the governor’s office.

6 Our community is home to several sources

7 of pollution including a power plant, highways,

8 transportation infrastructure, waste transfer

9 stations, toxic industrial sites and brownfield

10 sites, all of which are linked to increased

11 asthma and cancer rates and other public health

12 and safety concerns.

13 Our community also faces multiple

14 climate risks, including flooding and high heat,

15 which are compounded by existing environmental

16 harms and socioeconomic inequities. Forty percent

17 of climate funding for frontline environmental

18 justice communities is essential to remedying

19 these injustices and protecting those who are

20 most vulnerable. Some have argued that 40 percent

21 is too much. But it is reasonable that

22 investments should be concentrated in the areas

23 with the highest need and most at risk, like

24 frontline, low income communities of color.

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2 Further, 42 percent of New Yorkers are people of

3 color and 44 percent of New York households earn

4 just under $50,000 a year. Therefore, we need at

5 least 40 percent funding for low income

6 communities of color to equitably support New

7 York’s disadvantaged communities.

8 The CCPA, as it is, also mandates the

9 elimination of all greenhouse gas emissions. The

10 governor, however, wants to impose a carbon

11 neutral standard rather than a zero emissions

12 standard which would imply a offset program. This

13 is problematic for several reasons. First, carbon

14 offsets do not actually reduce carbon emissions.

15 Rather, it simply produces no net emissions. This

16 does nothing to address fossil fuel consumption,

17 which should be our primary target. Our actions

18 must reflect the urgency of the climate crisis

19 and we must do everything possible to move away

20 from extracted fossil fuel based economy as soon

21 as possible.

22 A carbon offset program would also do

23 nothing to reduce emissions in low income

24 communities of color, which have a

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2 disproportionate amount of polluting

3 infrastructure. Thus, we must reduce pollution at

4 the source. Additionally, burning fossil fuels

5 emits co-pollutants in addition to carbon, which

6 can cause respiratory and cardiac disease, as

7 well as other health issues. With a carbon offset

8 program, co-pollutants will remain concentrated

9 in environmental justice communities.

10 To achieve justice and appropriately

11 address the dire climate crisis, it is imperative

12 that the CCPA keep provisions eliminate

13 greenhouse admissions. In sum, it is critical

14 that we pass the CCPA as it is written, with 40

15 percent funding for low income frontline

16 communities of color and the full elimination of

17 all greenhouse gas emissions for the justice in

18 the communities that El Puente represents and

19 communities like ours across New York. Thank you.

20 [applause]

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

22 very much. I appreciate your very articulate

23 input, thank you.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Steve, can I

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2 ask a question?

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Certainly.

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Thank you

5 very much. Mr. Ortiz, do you live in Hunts Point?

6 MR. ORTIZ: I do not live in Hunts

7 Point, I work there.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Okay. So how

9 long have you been involved with Hunts Point?

10 MR. ORTIZ: In Hunts Point specifically,

11 I’ve been there for a year. I grew up in the

12 South Bronx not far too away. So I’ve been in the

13 area for over 20 years.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Okay. So

15 when I was elected in 2003, the worst air

16 pollution in New York City was at 124th and

17 Amsterdam Avenue in my district. And the reason

18 that was the case is because as you know, Harlem

19 is a valley, right, between Hamilton Heights and

20 Morningside Heights and there was a marine

21 transfer station at 125th Street and the Hudson

22 River. And the trucks from downtown would move up

23 Amsterdam Avenue, make a left and the air would

24 sit there in this bowl, right.

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2 So we’ve -- I’ve successfully gotten rid

3 of the 125th street transfer station. Now you

4 said there were 15 in Hunts Point?

5 MR. ORTIZ: Yes, there’s 15 waste

6 transfer stations in the South Bronx.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Okay. In the

8 South Bronx. Have they increased it recently? Or

9 have they always been there?

10 MR. ORTIZ: They have not increased. I

11 think the maybe a few years ago there was 13, but

12 we’re I think currently at 15.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Okay. And so

14 those decisions are made entirely by the City of

15 New York. Do you know if there’s any movement to

16 force the City of New York to change those

17 policies? Of putting those very negative

18 environmentally impact things altogether in

19 communities of color in the Bronx? I’m not too

20 sure but I do know that I believe last year there

21 was a cap on how much certain communities like

22 the South Bronx can handle in terms of waste,

23 known as the Waste Equity Bill. So to my

24 understanding, we cannot have anymore but we

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2 still have too much and so that still needs to

3 change.

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Thank you

5 for your leadership. I appreciate your answers.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. ORTIZ: Thank you.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: We’ve been

9 joined by Assembly Member Robert, Bobby Carroll,

10 welcome and Assembly Member Judy Griffin,

11 welcome. Does any other member here have

12 questions for this part of the panel?

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER OTIS: Can I just make a

14 few comments?

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Steve

16 Otis.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER OTIS: That while the

18 hear something about climate change and the bill,

19 where we have pollution hotspots and especially

20 in areas that violate our principles of economic

21 justice, I think we should be looking in another

22 hearing or another legislative efforts on

23 accelerating dealing with problems that are on

24 the ground here and now, air pollution and we

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2 heard testimony before from the woman from

3 Buffalo. And I actually was at a conference in

4 Buffalo, an environmental conference in Buffalo a

5 few years ago, where we heard in great detail the

6 problems of air pollution, going back generations

7 by the Peace Bridge.

8 So I think there’s a burden on all of us

9 to deal with hotspot areas quicker than 2050 and

10 to address the kinds of issues that many of you

11 have spoken about. Thank you.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Jo Anne

13 Simon.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Thank you. This

15 is sort of a question for you, but actually a

16 question for any witness. Recently I was at a

17 conference for lack of a better term, really a

18 workshop on carbon, which from what I can tell,

19 legislators from around the country are

20 struggling with what even that means, getting

21 their heads around the notion of carbon offsets,

22 let alone whether or not we’re talking carbon

23 neutrality or what have you. And also, a real

24 sort of lack of understanding about environmental

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2 justice, what that means, because there are many

3 communities who are poor that are not necessarily

4 communities of color that are also disadvantaged

5 and so people are struggling with how do you sort

6 those things -- how, in today’s world where we

7 have so many more multiracial families and those

8 categories are different. And there’s a real

9 concern that people are going to be just arguing

10 about what’s a Latinx community versus a

11 community of color versus people from South Asia,

12 all those kinds of arguments people can have and

13 never get anywhere.

14 So I’m curious what guidance you can

15 give to us to avoid some of those unproductive

16 conversations and also to encourage the

17 environmental justice community to reach out to -

18 - and I’m happy to facilitate this -- to talk to

19 some of those legislative groups that deal with

20 environmental concerns, so that people better

21 understand what we’re talking about here. It’s a

22 real concern for me that we could be talking at

23 cross purposes well into the future. I don’t know

24 if you have a reflection on that or not. It’s

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2 okay.

3 MR. ORTIZ: I think that one of the

4 issues that we see oftentimes is how things are

5 defined. Oftentimes different people have

6 different definitions for environmental justice.

7 I know that the U.S. EPA defines environmental

8 justice as a community that is low income and of

9 color. And, as you mentioned, there are

10 communities that are low income and not

11 necessarily of color. Maybe they’re not Latinx

12 communities or they might not be largely African-

13 American communities. I think that in my

14 understanding, an environmental justice community

15 is yes, could be either or of those two things,

16 but also a big component of environmental justice

17 is environmental. And I think that in order for a

18 community to be defined as environmental justice

19 they need to be grappling with existing systemic

20 issues that are disadvantaging them.

21 And oftentimes -- or I guess what I’m

22 trying to say is that it needs to have that

23 environmental component. Otherwise, it could be a

24 social justice issue. But in order for it to be

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2 an environmental justice issue, they need to be

3 grappling with issues that affect their

4 environment and therefore their public health.

5 So I guess in order to answer your

6 question or to give insight towards your

7 question, I think that there still needs to be a

8 better definition of what is considered

9 environmental justice and there still needs to be

10 a lot of education around climate in general. I

11 think that the political moment that we’re in has

12 pushed back a little bit upon that. But I think

13 that that is why it’s important that we have

14 these hearings and that we have these conferences

15 to create more awareness around these issues.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Thank you.

17 MS. VELASQUEZ: I was going to add that

18 the bill and a lot of our text uses the term

19 frontline communities. So while those frontline

20 communities generally are communities of color

21 and low income communities, I think using

22 that terminology really focuses along the fact

23 like what you were saying, like looking at the

24 actual impacts. And I know that part of this bill

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2 includes the equity screen, so really digging

3 into the data to figure out like what communities

4 are most impacted. And I think also at a state

5 level, they’re developing an environmental

6 justice map right now, I’m not sure. I know the

7 working group is working on that, so to really

8 identify where the problem areas are and

9 involving groups like ours and kind of developing

10 those maps is also a huge part of that.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Thank you.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Phil

13 Lavine.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LAVINE: Two words, good

15 work. It was actually four words.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

17 very much. [applause] Our next panel would

18 include Daniel Gatti, senior transportation

19 analyst for the Union of Concerned Scientists,

20 Jerry Rivers, environmental scientist, North

21 American Climate Conservation and Environment.

22 Not yet here. And Cecil Scheib, chief

23 sustainability officer, New York University. So

24 we’re looking for Daniel Gotti and Cecil Scheib.

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2 MR. DANIEL GATTI, SENIOR TRANSPORTATION

3 ANALYST, UNION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS: You got

4 me right here.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Glad to

6 have you, please state your name and affiliation

7 for the record.

8 MR. GOTTI: Alright. Great. Thank you,

9 My name is Daniel Gatti, I’m a senior

10 transportation analyst with the Union of

11 Concerned Scientists. I just want to start by

12 commending everyone for getting us to the point

13 where we are right now. And I mean everybody on

14 that side of the table and of course I mean

15 everybody on this side of the table as well. New

16 York State is on the verge of passing what would

17 be potentially the most ambitious piece of

18 climate legislation in the history of the United

19 States. And I for one am really excited to be

20 here and really impressed by all the work that

21 you’ve been doing.

22 You know, so as I said, I work for the

23 Union of Concerned Scientists on transportation

24 policy. My remarks today will be focused on

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2 transportation. I also currently am the chair of

3 the Transportation SSubcommittee of the

4 Massachusetts Global Warming Solutions Act

5 Implementation Advisory Committee so I’ve been

6 through in Massachusetts, a process somewhat

7 similar to the kind of process that you are

8 outlining here for New York. So, you know, I’m

9 happy to share some insight into that.

10 So I’m here today primarily to talk

11 about the path ahead for transportation in New

12 York. As I’m sure most of you know, pollution

13 from transportation is the leading source of

14 global warming pollution in New York, responsible

15 for over 40 percent of statewide emissions. We’ve

16 also already started to hear about how

17 transportation pollution, especially from diesel

18 vehicles along highways impacts human health in

19 communities of color and that everyday harm our

20 health. And yeah, so implementation of the CCPA

21 must include a big picture vision for how New

22 York State builds a clean and modern

23 transportation system that works for everyone.

24 And so first of all, I think the first

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2 big step that the state needs to take there is

3 that we need to electrify everything. Electric

4 vehicles are here, they are increasingly

5 available in all models and vehicle classes.

6 Electric vehicles are also awesome. I don’t know

7 if you all have had the chance to drive one yet,

8 but if you haven’t tried one, give it a try. It’s

9 an amazing drive. It’s a better mousetrap.

10 Electric engines use energy far more

11 efficiently. That means a great automotive

12 experience with lower costs for consumers.

13 Electric vehicles have fewer moving parts, which

14 means lower maintenance costs and greater

15 longevity. And by plugging into the grid and by

16 managing our EV charging strategically, we can

17 power EVs with renewable energy and in the

18 process, we can make our electric grid more

19 efficient and help facilitate the transition to

20 renewable energy.

21 But the better mousetrap does not always

22 win in the constrained market for automotive

23 technology. Gasoline and diesel vehicles still

24 have major market advantages in terms of

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2 infrastructure, consumer expectations and upfront

3 vehicle costs. Transitioning the 11 million

4 vehicles operating in New York to electric

5 vehicles will be a challenge that requires much

6 more ambitious policies. We need to build out the

7 infrastructure that makes keeping an ENVIRONMENT

8 fully charged even more convenient than filling

9 up at a gas station.

10 We need to expand incentives to reduce

11 the upfront vehicle costs for consumers,

12 especially low and moderate income consumers and

13 rural residents who currently cannot afford an

14 EV. And we need to do more making the process of

15 buying an EV a simple and easy process for

16 consumers. Electric vehicles are not only a

17 solution for passenger vehicles, but also for

18 heavy-duty vehicles, such as buses and trucks. We

19 commend New York City for their commitment to

20 achieve the complete electrification of the New

21 York City transit bus fleet by 2040 and we

22 encourage other cities and RTAs operating in New

23 York to make similar commitments. New funding

24 from New York State to help transit agencies and

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2 fleet operators replace diesel emissions with

3 zero emissions alternatives can be a big part of

4 the solution here.

5 In addition to electrification, we

6 should invest in alternatives to driving through

7 improved public and active transportation.

8 Electrification alone cannot solve all the

9 problems impacting New York’s transportation

10 system, particularly issues like congestion. We

11 need to do more to provide New Yorkers with

12 alternatives to driving through enhanced public

13 transportation, improved infrastructure for

14 walking, biking and micro mobility solutions such

15 as electric scooters.

16 Legislature obviously took a big step

17 this year to improve public transportation in the

18 New York City metro area by improving congestion

19 pricing and allocating significant new resources

20 to the MTA. We commend you for taking that bold

21 step and. But we need to do more to both fully

22 fund the national treasure that is the MTA and

23 make it the first class public transportation

24 system that New York City deserves. Bu also we

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2 know that we need to do much more to improve

3 public transportation services throughout New

4 York State. All New Yorkers deserve to be able to

5 get where they need to go without a car

6 regardless of where they live.

7 Third, we should do more to build

8 affordable housing near transit. Issues of

9 transportation emissions and congestion are

10 inextricably tied to issues of housing and land

11 use. People want to live in neighborhoods where

12 they have strong public transportation services

13 if they can afford it. But for many low and

14 moderate income New Yorkers, finding affordable

15 housing close to transportation is impossible.

16 Expanding public transportation services to new

17 communities without investing in affordable

18 housing in those communities can inadvertently

19 encourage gentrification. Climate policy in New

20 York should look to expand the production of

21 permanently affordable housing near public

22 transportation so that more New Yorkers can get

23 to work and to get to places they need to go

24 without driving.

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2 Fourth, solutions should focus on

3 communities with the greatest burden from

4 transportation pollution. Pollution from

5 transportation affects all communities of New

6 York but the communities that face the greatest

7 burden, as we know from previous speakers, are

8 those near major traffic corridors, highways and

9 ports. These impacts fall disproportionately hard

10 on communities of color. For example, in the

11 Bronx where over 70 percent of the population is

12 nonwhite, over 20 percent of the children have

13 asthma and rate of asthma related deaths is over

14 three times the national average.

15 We believe that the current CCPA

16 language directing 40 percent of funds towards

17 solutions in disadvantaged communities would be a

18 great start and a potential model for other

19 states looking to solve transportation challenges

20 in these communities.

21 Finally, we should create a market based

22 program to limit transportation emissions. One

23 tool that can help New York create a clean and

24 modern transportation system is a market based

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2 program similar to the Regional Greenhouse Gas

3 Initiative covering transportation fuels. RGGI

4 works by setting an overall cap or limit on

5 emissions from power plants, requiring polluters

6 to purchase allowances based on their emissions

7 and investing the proceeds from those allowance

8 sales in efficiency and clean energy. RGGI,

9 together with other smart programs, like the

10 Renewable Energy Standard, as well as the switch

11 from coal to gas has helped put the Northeast

12 region on track to reduce emissions by 60 percent

13 by 2030.

14 An expansion of this policy model into

15 transportation fuels could create an enforceable

16 limit on overall emissions from transportation

17 and provide once source of funding that could

18 help make New York State make some of the

19 investments that we need in clean vehicles, in

20 public transportation and in affordable housing.

21 Last December, nine states in the

22 Northeast and the mid-Atlantic region along with

23 Washington D.C. made a commitment to design a

24 market based program similar to RGGI covering

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2 transportation fuels through the Transportation

3 and Climate Initiative. The nine states who made

4 this commitment included all of New York’s

5 neighbors. It included three states with

6 republican governors including my state of

7 Massachusetts, but it did not include New York.

8 This is unacceptable. New York should be leading

9 the region towards clean transportation

10 solutions, not falling behind states like

11 Pennsylvania and Virginia.

12 So in conclusion, thank you very much

13 for holding this hearing, thank you for your

14 concern about climate change, thank you for your

15 concern about equity in New York’s most

16 vulnerable communities and I look forward being

17 part of the process moving forward. Thank you.

18 [applause]

19 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

20 Sir. State your name and affiliation for the

21 record, please.

22 MR. CECIL SCHEIB, CHIEF SUSTAINABILITY

23 OFFICER, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Thank you. My name

24 is Cecil Schieb. I am from New York University. I

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2 know at least one of you on the panel has gone to

3 NYU, but I will not name that person in case they

4 are somehow not proud of that fact. Thank you

5 very much for the opportunity and actually, Chair

6 I would like to say in particular, thank you for

7 your past work on net metering. As a person who

8 has taken advantage of that type of legislation

9 in the past, we’re not as far as we need to be,

10 but we wouldn’t be as far as we are now if it

11 weren’t for the work for people like you in the

12 past to get us here, so thank you. [applause]

13 So NYU has a public commitment to be one

14 of the greenest urban campuses in the country.

15 And we think that means both at a level of our

16 institution and but also helping the individual

17 people at NYU be greener. Since 2007, we have

18 reduced our carbon emissions by over 30 percent.

19 That is an amount that is equivalent to planting

20 all of Manhattan and all of Brooklyn in forest.

21 And if you are not familiar with those areas it’s

22 four times the size of Albany. That’s maybe more

23 familiar. We have further pledged to a 50 percent

24 total reduction from our baseline year by 2025

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2 and we have already pledged to be carbon neutral

3 by 2040. So we think that this bill is taking the

4 state in a direction that we are already

5 committed to go.

6 These efforts have saved NYU an enormous

7 and business smart level of money from our energy

8 budget, but that’s not the only reason we do it.

9 These efforts have made NYU a cleaner and greener

10 campus. It’s a better place to live and to study,

11 which is our mission. But that’s not the only

12 reason we do it. And I really commend the bill

13 for specifically calling out the health and

14 wellness virtues of a cleaner power supply and

15 cleaner energy use, and not just outdoor air

16 quality but also indoor air quality is affected.

17 And I don’t think there’s enough

18 attention given to the fact that people’s

19 cognitive function is directly related to the air

20 quality of what they breathe. We spend 90 percent

21 of our time indoors. That stat sounds crazy but

22 when was the last time most people were outdoors

23 on a weekday for more than two hours? We spend 90

24 percent of our time indoors. And when you give

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2 people cleaner air, they think better, hey have

3 better health outcomes. And so I think it’s

4 important as this bill states to value those

5 benefits, and not just be thinking about global

6 warming.

7 So what do we do to get these outcomes?

8 Well we are focused on our vehicle fleet. We have

9 a very small vehicle fleet, compared to other

10 parts of the city but it’s still there and we

11 know that when we run diesel vehicles around our

12 city that has an impact and we are doing what

13 you’ve heard about today, to examine that EV

14 transition and look at the lifetime cost of

15 ownership and the operational improvements of

16 those efforts. And in fact, our university senate

17 has passed a resolution saying that NYU should

18 work proactively with groups seeking to restore

19 justice to local communities and form a proactive

20 partnership to leverage NYU’s research, health,

21 volunteering and these other commitments to help

22 our local neighborhoods.

23 But most of our emissions come from

24 buildings. About 97 percent of NYU’s emissions,

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2 something like 70 percent of the city’s and

3 actually close to half of the state’s emissions

4 come from buildings. And everyone loves to focus

5 on photogenic new technology, right. Everyone

6 wants their picture taken next to solar panels or

7 a wind turbine or something like that. Well,

8 we’re doing that, too. We’re going to carpet our

9 flagship library building with solar panels this

10 summer.

11 But so much of the energy used by

12 buildings, especially when you look now through

13 2050, is in their day-to-day operations. And if

14 you think you can dump new technology, high-tech,

15 complex, computer driven new technology into

16 buildings that are decades or centuries old

17 without investing in the people who run those

18 buildings every day, it’s just not going to work.

19 Workforce development is an essential component

20 of getting our carbon numbers down.

21 And now that’s why NYU has a large

22 commitment to that workforce training. In fact,

23 in the next two years, we’ll be training over a

24 thousand NYU employees on green building

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2 operations. And that’s everything from the

3 building engineers who operate the energy systems

4 to the people that do the recycling, to people

5 who work in residence halls, to our energy

6 managers. This will help our sustainability, it

7 will help our comfort and I would like to

8 acknowledge this work is partially funded by

9 money from NYSERDA through their workforce

10 development program. And we think that’s very

11 forward thinking, we think really NYSERDA gets it

12 on this and we’re very glad to partner with them

13 and have their help.

14 I’d like to take just one moment to talk

15 about offsets. There are a few loads we faced on

16 campus that is may be very difficult supply, at

17 least in the medium term, without fossil fuels so

18 we think there maybe some role for offsets in our

19 2040 carbon neutrality plan. But, as has been

20 said, many times already in this hearing, offsets

21 do not get you the many other local benefits you

22 get from just reducing use of fossil fuels and

23 your carbon emissions in the first place. So

24 while there may be some role for offsets, they

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2 should be a last resort and never as the first

3 resort and that’s our approach.

4 NYU is very focused on working with our

5 surrounding community and engaging it. My office

6 actually gives internal grants to students,

7 faculty and others who are working on these and

8 other sustainability efforts. Students at the

9 Tandon School of Engineering in Brooklyn teach a

10 class called Urban Food Labs which helps students

11 to be future engagers with the community and work

12 on a community development. And we think helping

13 give students the sort of sustainability mindset

14 is one of the most important things.

15 We have a long history of research in

16 these areas. NYU actually published the first

17 research that showed the link between the M2.5

18 and mortality. NYU did what’s widely known as the

19 Backpack Study which looked at the link between

20 diesel air pollution and kids in the South Bronx,

21 so we have a long history here. We look forward

22 to helping the state and the city as these bills

23 progress and research needs to be done in terms

24 of carbon trading, pricing carbon emissions, the

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2 impact on these various populations, you know, we

3 have those world renowned factory and we are

4 happy to offer expertise to various policymakers.

5 So thank you for the opportunity to testify and

6 we are ready to take any questions.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Steve?

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Yes, Mr.

9 O’Donnell.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: I do not

11 represent NYU. But I do represent Morningside

12 Heights which has Columbia University, Barnard

13 College, Manhattan School of Music, Union

14 Theological, Jewish Theological, St. Luke’s

15 Hospital and the Cathedral of St. John the

16 Developer, as I like to call it now. [laughter]

17 Now, there are very difficult

18 relationships between institutions who don’t seem

19 to understand the difference between what they

20 need and what they want and the communities that

21 they’re in. So I’m not going to comment on your

22 relationship with your community. But I have

23 relationships with all those institutions.

24 And so my first question is, you seem

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2 very proud of what you do in that sense, in terms

3 of moving forward on these issues. Do you work

4 with the other institutions in the city to help

5 them along this process, too? And since you and

6 Columbia seem to be constantly in competition,

7 are you competing with Columbia University to get

8 there first?

9 MR. SCHIEB: So that’s a great question.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: I tend to

11 ask great questions. The answers are always not

12 so good, but the questions are good, yes.

13 MR. SCHIEB: I will do my best.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Okay.

15 MR. SCHIEB: So I think the city took

16 some very smart moves here in that they actually

17 gathered institutions of higher education, as

18 well as hospitals and asked them to commit first

19 to carbon reductions. And so this did create a

20 sense of friendly competition among various

21 universities. There’s no awards or prizes, you

22 don’t lose anything if you’re not there first,

23 but we were looking at each other. And one

24 benefit that I think these institutions bring is

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2 a willingness to invest in their buildings for

3 the long-term, different than some other real

4 estate interests because we expect to be there.

5 And that gave us the willingness I think to go

6 first on these energy and carbon saving measures.

7 And we try to help out anyone, whether our peers

8 in higher education, other real estate developers

9 or anyone who asks, how did you do it? What were

10 the benefits? And what were the costs? And I

11 think most importantly, what did you try and

12 didn’t work? Like what should I know if I’m

13 getting into this that didn’t payback that

14 sounded great on paper, but didn’t really work

15 when you tried it. We would love to help people

16 follow this path.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Well, from

18 my perspective, there is an inherent conflict

19 between the needs of institution or the wants of

20 institutions to maximize their development

21 potential and thereby create gentrification. So

22 you come here and say look how great we are

23 because we’re reducing these numbers and yet all

24 those institutions I just named are building 42

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2 story towers in communities and in so doing,

3 forcing the neighbors out. And so, I would just

4 humbly suggest that you be a better neighbor and

5 more respectful of the people who live around you

6 and not just proud of the greenness of your

7 diesel bus fleet. Thank you. [applause]

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT:

9 Assemblywoman Liffton.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Thank you Mr.

11 Chair. Mr. Gatti is it?

12 MR. GATTI: Yes, right.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: With an A?

14 MR. GATTI: With an A, yes. Italian A,

15 kind of sounds like an O.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: I agree with

17 much of your testimony and your colleague here. I

18 was concerned to read about the applause for

19 switching from coal to gas helping put the

20 Northeast region track to reduce emissions by 65

21 percent. I’m sure you’re familiar -- you must be

22 familiar, from the Union of Concerned Scientists

23 about the latest research on methane and gas. I

24 have Bob Howarth, one of our nation’s top climate

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2 scientists in my district at Cornell, who’s

3 saying natural gas is no bridge fuel, methane in

4 our 20-year window is 84 or 86 times more

5 powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2 and in

6 fact, it is the main driver of increased global

7 warming now. He’s also saying in his latest

8 research that bringing down methane is the only

9 way we are going to win this battle against

10 climate change.

11 MR. GATTI: Yeah.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: So could you

13 please -- you’re shaking your head, yes.

14 MR. GATTI: Yeah. Sure. No, well I, so,

15 so --

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: If you’re

17 willing to, I’d love to hear clarification from

18 you on that.

19 MR. GATTI: For certain I work in

20 transportation policy. So I might have stepped in

21 a little bit by getting outside of my lane a

22 little bit. So, because really I was trying to

23 make a point about the Regional Greenhouse Gas

24 Initiative, which has been successful in being

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2 able to reduce overall emissions and I really was

3 only putting in, making mention of the fact that

4 getting rid of coal has been a big source of

5 emission reductions in the Northeast.

6 I think the task ahead of us absolutely

7 is now how we get away from gas. And in the

8 transportation sector, it’s never even getting to

9 gas to begin with. So, I completely agree with

10 the concerns about methane leakage, about

11 fracking, you know and I don’t see natural gas as

12 a solution at all. I just wanted to put the

13 caveat out there for those people who are like

14 well RGGI was only successful because it happened

15 at the same time as this coal to natural gas

16 transition. And that is somewhat true in terms of

17 how RGGI has been able to pull off significant

18 reductions, but I absolutely agree with you that

19 gas is not going to be a solution for New York.

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: But those are

21 reductions on paper for a regional only, right?

22 MR. GATTI: That’s correct.

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: So, in terms of

24 the nation or the world, as we’re telling Europe

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2 and Asia to frack some more, we’re actually

3 pouring greater greenhouse gases into the

4 atmosphere all over.

5 MR. GATTI: That’s a great point.

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: So, thank you.

7 This is a global problem, yes?

8 MR. GATTI: And let me maybe take the

9 opportunity to say that what you’re saying about

10 natural gas in the power plant sector is even

11 more true if you were to try to use natural gas

12 to power vehicles. That would require a

13 distribution network that would inevitably end up

14 leaking methane, don’t even go there. We already

15 have the electric grid. Let’s power our EVs into

16 the electric grid and not try to look to natural

17 gas as a solution for transportation.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Thank you very

19 much for that clarification.

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Assembly

21 Member Carroll.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: Thank you Mr.

23 Chair. I have two questions, but my first

24 question is for Mr. Gatti. I agree that it would

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2 be wonderful to have both our commercial and

3 personal use fleet to be all electric when we’re

4 talking about driving or talking about using

5 buses or other mass transit means. My question is

6 currently the state of New York and very kind of

7 broad envelope uses about 32,000 megawatts of

8 energy on a given day. How much energy do you

9 think we would need to produce if we were to --

10 how much more energy would we need to produce if

11 we were to fully electrify our vehicle fleet?

12 MR. GATTI: Yeah. That’s a great

13 question I can’t answer it off the top of my

14 head, but I would be happy to follow up. We did

15 do an analysis that looks at the overall energy

16 impact of making a big transition to electric

17 vehicles. I guess one sort of principled answer,

18 you know, I can follow-up with the data, but one

19 answer that stems from principle is we are going

20 to have a lot of hydro here in New York State, we

21 already do. We’re going to have a lot of offshore

22 winds in 100 percent renewable future here in New

23 York State.

24 We hope that a lot of EV charging is

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2 going to happen at night. That’s a time in which

3 we might have a lot of excess capacity on the

4 grid. So there are some opportunities if you are

5 creating the policies that encourage people to

6 drive when electricity use is relatively low for

7 other reasons, which is kind of the natural way

8 that things I think will happen. Because I think

9 the way a lot of EV users operate is that they’re

10 going to plug in their car overnight and that’s

11 going to give them all the charge that they need

12 during the day. There’s a lot of opportunity to

13 be able to take advantage of low grade capacity.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: And to follow-

15 up on that, I think one of the important things

16 and again, a back of the envelope I think,

17 estimation is if we include an entire electric

18 fleet of vehicles and then we add to that heating

19 and cooling our homes via electricity even with

20 additions to geothermal and other things that

21 we’re going to double the need of our current

22 electrical needs.

23 MR. GATTI: Yep.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: And thus,

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2 we’re going to want to make sure that when we

3 double that need, we produce that through

4 renewable resources and not through plug and play

5 natural gas power plants.

6 And you know I think now, going a little

7 bit off that path, I think one of the issues with

8 an electric fleet, of course, is city dwellers.

9 People in my district in Brooklyn don’t have

10 driveways. They live in apartment buildings or

11 they live in brownstones or row houses or

12 townhouses. And you can’t run an electric cord

13 from your second story window, down the block to

14 your car. And so we’re going to need massive

15 investment in public charging stations as well as

16 a technological jump where charging no longer

17 takes hours, or even you know, 30 or 40 minutes

18 but how can we do it in 15 or 20 minutes to get

19 at least a base charge so that folks can get to

20 and from work or to and from their errands.

21 MR. GATTI: Absolutely correct. And I

22 think every apartment building, every multifamily

23 dwelling in New York State right now and

24 especially New York City, where you’re right, you

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2 don’t have access to off-street parking, needs to

3 be looking at figuring out how we install

4 charging stations in those apartment buildings

5 and that should be a big priority for sure.

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: Thank you, Mr.

7 Gatti. And Mr. Schieb, I have a question for you.

8 Just yesterday you probably saw the news that the

9 DEC disapproved the Williams Pipeline. And one of

10 the bigger proponents of the Williams Pipeline

11 were union workers and workers because that those

12 were jobs on the pipeline. You mentioned that NYU

13 was looking to retrain its plant workers so that

14 they can more efficiently heat and cool and run

15 NYU’s many buildings. I would hope, I think one

16 of the ways, the only way that we will actually

17 get to real energy, renewable energy independence

18 is if we engage with unions and other workers

19 around our state to know that when we go green

20 that there are jobs for them and that they’re

21 good paying jobs. And I would love to hear if the

22 engineers who operate your physical plants, if

23 they are unionized and if they’re not, why? And

24 would you be willing to look into engaging with

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2 trade unions and operating engineers throughout

3 the state so that you can set a model to show

4 that when you go green, it is not at the

5 detriment to hard-working men and women in trade

6 unions throughout this state?

7 MR. SCHIEB: Thanks, that’s a great

8 question. Yes, at NYU, our building engineers are

9 members of a union. And also some of the premier

10 building energy training material, which is the

11 Urban Green Council’s G-Pro Program was actually

12 developed in concert with the service employees

13 union, with the operating engineers union with

14 the engineers, with the plumbers, sheet metal,

15 heat and frost, all of these unions have been

16 involved.

17 There are certainly jobs in developing

18 infrastructure, whether that’s gas infrastructure

19 or the renewable infrastructure, right. In fact,

20 my understanding is that one of the single

21 largest national job growth categories has been

22 in terms of green energy development. That’s one

23 of the biggest job growth categories. But also

24 you mentioned earlier, hey when we make the

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2 transition, not just to electric vehicles but

3 also to heating and cooling our homes with

4 electricity, we’re also going to see low growth

5 and that’s true. But that growth is not fixed.

6 That growth is the multiplication of how

7 many homes you take from natural gas or oil heat

8 to a heat pump or to an electric heat times how

9 efficient those heat pumps are and how efficient

10 those homes and apartments and businesses are. We

11 have old infrastructure and old buildings in this

12 state. And if we try to size our whole grid to

13 heat buildings that were never designed to hold

14 heat and aren’t well insulated and have drafty

15 windows and doors and roofs and attics, that is

16 not the right way to go about it. We’re going to

17 spend far too much and those jobs doing that

18 work, those are also jobs, retrofitting buildings

19 to do that. Lots of them, and as you’re of course

20 aware, New York City has just recently passed

21 landmark legislation that’s going to require

22 large owners to do enormous things to their

23 buildings and those are also jobs bills as well.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: Thank you.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Assembly

3 Member Simon.

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Thank you. Mr.

5 Gatti, I wanted to ask you a few questions with

6 regard to transportation. Obviously you know,

7 Assembly Member Carroll addressed it to an extent

8 and this has to do with the distribution network

9 and charging stations. Tesla has a facility in my

10 district. And they’re really cool.

11 MR. GATTI: White Plains?

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: And one of the

13 things I liked the most was talking to the

14 mechanics who actually have clean hands. It’s

15 really a remarkable thing. But part of their

16 issue is distribution, how they can sell their

17 vehicles, because we have specific laws in New

18 York that go back to prohibition for how it is

19 that dealers are engaged in that process of the

20 distribution of vehicles to the market. So

21 there’s a big issue about how they get the

22 vehicles and get them to a place that they are

23 close enough to be repaired because the distance

24 isn’t so great that they can travel.

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2 I know my colleague, Pat Fahy has a bill

3 about incentivizing the use of electric vehicles.

4 I’m curious if you have some suggestions about

5 how to do that and how we get beyond that

6 relatively short distance. I have to drive to

7 Albany and I have a hybrid. So I’m starting to

8 feel guilty about having a hybrid, but you can’t

9 get there on an electric charge.

10 MR. GATTI: Yes. So those dealer

11 franchise laws were made in a different era to

12 deal with completely different set of problems

13 than the kind of dynamic that we see with Tesla

14 right now. You know, actually Connecticut still

15 does not have even a single Tesla dealership.

16 Obviously, you’re in a better place with that in

17 New York. I think you have what a restriction on

18 four, five. But you know, those laws should be

19 reconsidered in the context of a vehicle

20 technology like Tesla. Truth be told, the

21 experience of buying an electric vehicle is going

22 to be a different experience than it was on the

23 previous technology and I don’t want to sound

24 like a total you know, Elon Musk fan boy exactly,

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2 because, you know, I think we need to get all of

3 the auto companies to be electrifying. But I

4 think he had a point when he said that

5 dealerships have a hard time making a case with

6 electric vehicles without implicitly undermining

7 the business case for their own internal

8 combustion vehicles and that that’s why he says

9 he doesn’t want for Teslas to be sold at

10 independent dealerships. And I think that that

11 makes a lot of sense. So you know, yeah, I would

12 encourage the state to look at those laws and how

13 they apply to electric vehicle distribution.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: I have another a

15 follow-up question that goes to this issue about

16 building affordable housing near transit. I

17 represent downtown Brooklyn, two-thirds of Park

18 Slope, the Gowanus superfund site is in my

19 district and there’s a bit rezoning there wanting

20 to build enormous buildings on land that is still

21 is not yet cleaned up.

22 But one of the problems we have is that

23 in New York, and I don’t know if this is the case

24 in Massachusetts, but what passes for affordable

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2 housing is generally not affordable. And so every

3 time somebody wants to build affordability near

4 transit, which is always in my district, it’s

5 taller, more polluting and not terribly

6 affordable. And the current environmental review

7 process is so inadequate to address these issues.

8 I’m curious whether you know of efforts

9 to reform that environmental review process to

10 make it more updated and less menu-driven where

11 you end up with somebody saying oh well, you

12 know, there will be impacts, but then we would

13 not be able to do the project, so let’s just do

14 the project.

15 MR. GATTI: Right.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: And it doesn’t

17 really get us anywhere. It’s just frustrating for

18 people and it doesn’t really inform decision

19 making terribly well. So I’m curious whether you

20 have any suggestions for that or know of efforts

21 to look at that issue?

22 MR. GATTI: You know, honestly, I wish I

23 could offer you more concrete suggestions. But I

24 know these issues can often be very complicated

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2 once you get down to the local implementation

3 level. I very much understand that all of these

4 cities, Boston, New York, Philadelphia,

5 Washington D.C., you know, people want to live in

6 the cities because they have really good access

7 to public transportation. And how we make room

8 for all of those people who are interested in

9 congregating in these places but also retain the

10 existing population is going to be a challenge

11 that you are going to have to face and that

12 legislators like you will have to face I think

13 for decades. And I don’t think there are easy

14 answers for sure. But the climate does require us

15 to figure out how we can get more housing.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Thank you. And

17 Mr. Schieb, I’m very interested in the studies

18 that show that cognitive function doubles in

19 spaces with better indoor air quality. I am

20 familiar with the early work about the Backpack

21 Study and all of the work that was done in

22 looking at toxicity in the environment and the

23 development of learning disabilities and other

24 neurological issues. But I’m curious about these

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2 studies, how much of that is going on and if

3 there’s particular references you could provide?

4 MR. SCHIEB: Yes. Actually the lead on

5 that study was the Harvard School of Public

6 Health, Chan. But much of the work was done here

7 in New York at the Syracuse Center for Excellence

8 and at SUNY Downstate. And they basically, they

9 started by having a controlled lab type situation

10 where they had people come in and just do their

11 normal workday on laptops and they could vary the

12 air quality coming in. Then they experimented

13 with actual buildings and starting to measure

14 people’s cognitive function, actual buildings, a

15 small sample. Now they are going worldwide and

16 NYU is looking to be a participant in the study,

17 both so we can put some hard numbers instead of

18 listing health as like an intangible benefit, but

19 say no, here, we actually measured these

20 benefits, but also so that our researchers can

21 use this data in the research. But the study is

22 called COGfx for cognitive function and you

23 search for COGfx online. It will be very easy to

24 find.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Thank you very

3 much.

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT:

5 Assemblywoman Judy Griffin.

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER GRIFFIN: I’m the last

7 person to ask questions, my questions have been

8 answered so I just thank you for your informative

9 testimony and responses. Thank you.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: We’re not

11 done yet. We still have others. Thank you, Judy.

12 Assembly Member Chuck Lavine.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LAVINE: Thank you,

14 Chair. Mr. Schieb and Mr. Gotti, thanks for your

15 dedication and your hard work. And Mr. Gatti, I

16 want to say that I represent Long Island. And I

17 am particularly sensitive, as are all my

18 colleagues to the fact that there is an absolute

19 necessity to develop places where people can live

20 near our railroad and our transit hubs. Easier

21 said, however, than done. So thanks for

22 mentioning that.

23 But to keep the seat as hot as I can for

24 both of you, being from Long Island, I have the

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2 pleasure of reading News Day. And I know you

3 probably didn’t see it, but News Day had an

4 editorial this morning with a very clever lead-in

5 line, and it deals with the legislation we’re

6 considering. And the lead-in line is heat on

7 Albany for climate pact, very clever. But I’m

8 going to ask you to comment on a paragraph, which

9 I want to make it clear I don’t endorse. I don’t

10 necessarily endorse. I don’t unendorse it. But

11 this is what it says. It says, Albany cannot let

12 a debate over carbon neutral versus carbon free

13 sideline progress. Even a bill with a carbon

14 neutral goal would be one of the strongest and

15 most progressive pieces of climate legislation in

16 the nation. So as a couple of wonderful judges

17 whose courtrooms I used to work right near this

18 building used to say, so what do you say to that?

19 MR. GATTI: Sure. I have two things. I

20 haven’t really weighed in on the offset

21 conversation yet. And so first of all, I do agree

22 that certainly it would be a tragedy to let that

23 distinction undermine the progress on the bill.

24 So, I also agree that getting to carbon neutral

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2 by 2050 would be more than Massachusetts has

3 committed to. We actually do have legislation

4 pending right now in Massachusetts that aims at

5 net zero, but right now our bill just says at

6 least 80 percent by 2050. And it’s more than

7 California has done. So it would still be a

8 nation leading bill.

9 I guess my feelings about offsets are

10 somewhat informed by the RGGI experience. We did

11 hear a lot of talk about California. California’s

12 program has involved significant use of offsets.

13 In RGGI, they set criteria and I know I’m going

14 to end up getting it slightly wrong, but it’s

15 real, enforceable, additional, verifiable and

16 local, all being requirements for offsets under

17 the RGGI Program. And what’s happened is when you

18 put all of those burdens on an offset program in

19 which they have to show all of those things and

20 local is super important here, too, right, we’re

21 not talking about Brazil, because everybody knows

22 you cannot efficiently track the forest planting

23 in Brazil.

24 So if you put all of those restrictions

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2 on it, there have been almost no offsets. There’s

3 been literally one approved offset in the entire

4 history of the RGGI program. So it’s become more

5 of a theoretical issue than a practical one. Now

6 again yes in California offsets have done a

7 little bit more to undermine progress in

8 California.

9 So I guess my feeling ultimately about

10 offsets is that they should not be allowed to

11 undermine the program. They should be restricted

12 in the same way that RGGI did and at best they

13 can be a minor feature of the program but they

14 shouldn’t be a big part of it.

15 MR. SCHIEB: Yeah, I mean we are not

16 going to offset our way out of this problem.

17 We’re going to reduce our use of fossil fuels our

18 way out of the problem. So, as I said in my

19 testimony, it’s got to be the last resort instead

20 of the first resort. And if they are allowed and

21 the wisdom of the Assembly, at the end of the

22 day, I think of the most important thing as was

23 stated, is to make sure that the language that

24 will enable and allow the use of that offsets is

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2 very carefully looked at on the terms that were

3 described so that unexpected loopholes don’t

4 creep in. And make sure that people do the right

5 thing first. Because again, these other benefits

6 including savings to the people who are doing the

7 reductions, don’t occur if people look for

8 offsets first. And offsets are the easier path

9 for some and so it is almost sort of like a

10 temptation we have to help people avoid.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LAVINE: Thank you both,

12 and let me finish, I think I’m -- if I’m the last

13 one, to editorialize just briefly. On this

14 subject of transit oriented development, and I’m

15 speaking specifically now to Long Island which is

16 the part of New York that I know the best. Our

17 taxpayers and our commercial taxpayers and our

18 individual taxpayers spend a great deal of money

19 supporting a first rate public education system.

20 And unless and until, and this is for

21 our local governments, this not for you two guys

22 but you have to listen, but the message I’d like

23 to transport or convey here is that unless and

24 until Long Island’s local governments are ready,

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2 willing and able to help develop and support

3 transit oriented housing, we will continue to

4 lose our young people on the Island who want to

5 go to those communities in which there’s a lot

6 going on and in which they don’t have to depend

7 on an automobile and in which they live near to

8 public transportation. So thanks for bearing up

9 with my little piece of semi-pontification. Thank

10 you.

11 MR. GATTI: I totally agree.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

13 very much.

14 MR. GATTI: Thank you. [applause]

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Our next

16 panel, Elizabeth Moran, environment policy

17 director, NYPIRG, Rachel Spector, director,

18 Environmental Justice Program, New York Lawyers

19 for the Public Interest, Walter Hang, president,

20 Toxics Targeting and Stephan Edel, project

21 director, New York Working Families. Let’s begin

22 with Walter Hang, who has been doing this longer

23 than most of anyone else in the room. Welcome,

24 Walter.

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2 MR. WALTER HANG, PRESIDENT, TOXICS

3 TARGETING: Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.

4 Greetings, my name is Walter Hang, I’m the

5 president of Toxics Targeting, an environmental

6 database firm in Ithaca, New York. I have

7 researched public health and environmental

8 protection policy concerns and testified before

9 this committee many times over more than 40 years

10 since Ollie Koppell was the chair.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to address

12 the subject of today’s hearing. It is an honor to

13 speak to all of you today. Mr. Chairman, I

14 commend you, your colleagues and your staff for

15 convening this hearing. I concur that climate

16 change is quote, adversely affecting public

17 health, economic wellbeing, natural resources and

18 the environment of New York close quote.

19 It is hard to overstate the scope of

20 this threat. Less than seven years ago Super

21 Storm Sandy flooded lower Manhattan within a few

22 blocks of this building, as well as my former

23 office, just down the block in 9 Murray Street.

24 That disaster caused more than $65 billion in

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2 damages.

3 In short, climate change is a matter of

4 life and death for New Yorkers, as well as a

5 grave economic concern. That is why I’m pleased

6 to provide a proposal that addresses the

7 interrelated challenges that are the subject of

8 your hearing. While there is widespread public

9 support for addressing global climate change by

10 phasing out fossil fuel consumption, the

11 indisputable reality is that shockingly meager

12 progress has been achieved to reduce the burning

13 of fossil fuels, either in New York, across the

14 nation or anywhere on the planet during the 30

15 years since global climate change first came to

16 widespread public attention.

17 In reality, domestic oil and natural gas

18 production has skyrocketed to unprecedented

19 levels, due to shale fracking that has spread

20 from coast to coast. In the last ten years,

21 America became the largest oil and gas producer

22 in the world according to the U.S. Energy

23 Information Administration and you can see the

24 graphs.

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2 In stark contrast, New York prohibited

3 shale fracking in 2015, thanks to the epic

4 efforts of members of this committee and assembly

5 leadership. Mr. Chairman, I salute you, the

6 incomparable Assemblywoman Barbara Lifton,

7 Representatives Deborah Glick and Cathy Nolan who

8 held landmark meetings in their districts and

9 former speaker Sheldon Silver. Without these

10 steadfast efforts our state would have been

11 fracked. Thank you so much.

12 New York shale fracking victory dealt a

13 death blow to our local extraction industry. As a

14 result, oil and gas production is plummeting

15 after nearly two centuries of pollution problems.

16 All extraction activities could end soon.

17 New York’s longstanding energy policy

18 provides that clean renewable energy alternatives

19 would slowly but surely supplant burning fossil

20 fuels. As a result, greenhouse gas output would

21 dwindle and our state’s contribution to global

22 climate change would be reduced.

23 Unfortunately, even though our state

24 aims to achieve a 50 percent renewable energy

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2 goal by 2030 or even more aggressive Green New

3 Deal requirements New York has made virtually no

4 progress towards achieving the 50 percent goal.

5 According to the 2019 Load and Capacity Data

6 Report prepared by the New York Independent

7 System Operator, NYISO, more than 70 percent of

8 New York’s energy is generated using nonrenewable

9 fossil fuel and nuclear systems. Our state’s

10 renewable energy is almost entirely produced by

11 hydroelectric plants built half a century ago.

12 That accounts for only 21 percent of our state’s

13 energy output. Please note that I do not consider

14 burning garbage, wood waste or landfill methane

15 gas to be renewable energy, nor should New York

16 State authorities.

17 You can see that New York’s total wind

18 and solar output is less than four percent.

19 Moreover, the percentage of wind and solar energy

20 generation actually decreased slightly in 2018

21 compared to 2017. I wish to underscore that I

22 have nothing against wind and solar energy. I am

23 simply not persuaded that its output can be

24 expanded sufficiently to resolve New York’s or

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2 the nation’s fossil fuel problems as a practical

3 matter in the near term. The formidable barriers

4 to expanding wind and solar energy are spelled

5 out in great technical detail in NYISO’s just

6 released Power Trend’s 2019 report.

7 I believe the only way to end New York’s

8 addiction to fossil fuels is to drastically cut

9 energy demand. Fortunately, this is entirely

10 feasible. I’m pleased to explain how current

11 energy demand can be reduced by at least one-

12 third by launching a statewide deep retrofit

13 insulation, weatherization and energy efficiency

14 program using available funding from the New York

15 State Clean Energy Fund.

16 In 2016, Governor Cuomo’s bill to lead

17 agenda stated, quote, the least expensive and

18 most effective way to meet our state’s energy

19 goals is simply to reduce the overall energy

20 consumption of New York’s homes, businesses and

21 institutions by making them more efficient.

22 Increasing energy efficiency also lowers utility

23 bills for customers and enables businesses to

24 reduce their operating costs. The state will

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2 invest part of the Clean Energy Fund to help

3 property owners and renters audit their current

4 energy use and identify energy savings

5 opportunities and replace inefficient systems and

6 appliances with high efficiency models whenever

7 possible, close quote.

8 Unfortunately, this incredibly sensible

9 energy policy was never implemented on a

10 meaningful basis. In 2016, approximately $5

11 billion was dedicated to a Clean Energy Fund to

12 support the development of energy efficiency and

13 renewable energy alternatives according to the

14 latest State Energy Plan.

15 With all respect, the CEF has failed to

16 increase New York’s wind and solar energy output

17 or reduce energy demand to any significant

18 degree. According to the CEF, quote, the one to

19 four family residential market consists of more

20 than five million low rise (three stories or

21 less) residential buildings with up to four

22 living units. Approximately 75 percent of homes

23 were built prior to 1979 when the Energy

24 Conservation Construction Code became effective

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2 in New York State. To date, energy efficiency

3 programs have only marginally tapped the

4 potential energy savings of this sector, close

5 quote.

6 According to the U.S. Energy Department,

7 homes can reduce their energy consumption by up

8 to 30 percent by implementing simple energy

9 efficiency methods such as switching to light

10 emitting diode bulbs, installing programmable

11 thermostats and weatherizing windows and doors.

12 Deep energy efficient retrofits and install

13 insulation and seal homes from drafts can achieve

14 higher energy efficiency.

15 I will soon request that Governor Cuomo

16 reallocate half of the remaining CEF monies which

17 accrue on an annual basis to launch a statewide

18 deep retrofit insulation, weatherization and

19 efficiency program. This could provide perhaps $2

20 billion for that purpose. I believe that all

21 citizens, business owners and institutions in New

22 York should be able to deep retrofit their homes

23 and structures on a 50/50 basis with the state

24 subsidizing half of the cost using CEF monies.

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2 I believe that implementing this

3 proposal could drive down the cost of single

4 family deep retrofit from approximately $10,000

5 to $5,000, due to economies of scale. At this

6 price point, the homeowner would pay $2,500, CEF

7 would provide $2,500. There is broad consensus

8 that a deep retrofit could reduce energy costs by

9 one-third of the annual $2,500 utility bill in

10 New York or about $800.

11 In only three years, deep retrofit costs

12 would be paid, afterwards homeowners would save

13 $800 each year. That is a significant amount for

14 almost all New Yorkers. Deep retrofit costs could

15 be fronted by utilities and recouped through on

16 bill recovery systems that make sure an

17 individual’s utility costs cannot go up. The cost

18 of the deep retrofits would be paid with energy

19 savings only. It is my understanding that these

20 programs already exist in New York.

21 According to CEF, New York State has

22 approximately 9,000 residential contractors with

23 large potential to increase the share of

24 contractors working in energy efficient close

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2 quote. I believe that a commitment of

3 approximately $2 billion would constitute an

4 unprecedented home and building energy

5 improvement program that could ultimately be

6 expanded to deep retrofit all of New York’s eight

7 million housing units. This could be achieved in

8 20 to 30 years. This would provide a jobs program

9 of historic proportions for generations of well

10 paid workers.

11 I would like to note two quick things.

12 Number one, energy use in New York State is

13 already going down and it’s predicted for the

14 next decade to go down. I just want to accelerate

15 that trend. Number two, we’re at a moment when a

16 huge array of ancient power plants are going to

17 probably not be able to operate any longer, so

18 this is the perfect time to try to obviate the

19 need to invest in new power plants. Once you

20 build those power plants and pipelines and gas

21 storage facilities, it can take 40 years to kill

22 off the debt.

23 So I hope that we will be able to

24 essentially reduce New York State’s energy demand

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2 in epic fashion and I think that this is the

3 simplest and the best way to address global

4 change while also bolstering our economy. Thank

5 you so much if you have questions I will try to

6 answer them. [applause]

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

8 We’ll save, for the moment, questions and listen

9 to the rest of the members of the panel, but

10 thank you, Walter.

11 MR. HANG: Thank you.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: When I

13 first spoke to you, I had brown hair and bell

14 bottoms.

15 MR. HANG: You also had a wonderful

16 moustache and were you a killer basketball

17 player.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Things

19 change, yes.

20 MR. HANG: Still going strong.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

22 Elizabeth Moran, NYPIRG.

23 MS. ELIZABETH MORAN, ENVIRONMENTAL

24 POLICY DIRECTOR, NYPIRG: Thank you for the

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2 opportunity to testify today. My name is Liz

3 Moran and I am the environmental policy director

4 for the New York Public Interest Research Group,

5 NYPIRG. NYPIRG is a nonpartisan not-for-profit

6 research and advocacy organization, consumer

7 protection, environmental preservation, public

8 health, healthcare quality, higher education

9 affordability and governmental reforms are our

10 principle areas of concern.

11 We appreciate the opportunity to testify

12 here today on the importance of comprehensive

13 action on climate change. As one of the largest

14 states and the nation’s financial capital, New

15 York’s leadership on climate change can shape

16 U.S. policy. At a time when the federal

17 government is rolling back clean air protections,

18 revitalizing the notorious polluting coal

19 industry and denying the very reality of climate

20 change, the time for New York to lead is now.

21 There have been numerous proposals this

22 year to address climate change and there are

23 strong elements in each that would together make

24 for a comprehensive and powerful climate action

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2 plan. The legislation that has been the center of

3 discussion this year and in previous years is the

4 Climate and Community Protection Act. NYPIRG

5 supports the CCPA, but to ensure that the CCPA

6 puts New York on the strongest path necessary to

7 combat climate change, NYPIRG recommends the

8 follow, which we detail in our written testimony.

9 The timeline for the goals presented in

10 the legislation must be accelerated. New York

11 must strive to achieve 100 percent renewable

12 energy and net zero greenhouse gas emissions as

13 soon as possible. Here are some options from

14 other proposals that can be adopted to do this.

15 The OFF Act, Assembly Bill 3565,

16 establishes a goal of 100 percent renewable

17 energy and net zero greenhouse gas emissions by

18 2030. This is the strongest language out of all

19 existing proposals and is the most closely

20 aligned with the latest findings from the IPCC’s

21 October 2018 report. NYPIRG recommends that this

22 goal is adopted into climate legislation.

23 There’s also other goals that out there

24 that are strong, such as the Governor’s Climate

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2 Leadership Act which proposes 70 percent

3 renewable energy by 2030 and 100 percent by 2040.

4 That’s also the Freedom From Fossil Fuels Act,

5 Assembly Bill 7479, which includes a goal of 100

6 percent renewable energy by 2030 if possible and

7 a hard goal of 2040.

8 Nuclear and biomass should be explicitly

9 excluded from the definition of renewable energy

10 systems and should not be part of any carbon

11 neutrality concept. These energy sources are not

12 environmentally or financially sustainable.

13 Additionally, nuclear energy is a significant

14 threat to public health and safety, especially as

15 New York’s existing plants age out. Plans should

16 also be made to phase out existing nuclear and

17 biomass.

18 An immediate moratorium should be placed

19 on all new fossil fuel infrastructure and

20 storage. There are currently several proposals to

21 build out fossil fuel infrastructure in New York

22 from Buffalo to Long Island. These proposals come

23 in the form of pipelines, storage facilities and

24 power plants. The approval of these projects

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2 would contradict New York’s clean energy goals

3 and would contradicted the state’s efforts to

4 transition to renewable energy.

5 There are a couple pieces of legislation

6 that incorporate this concept, such as the

7 Freedom From Fossil Fuels Act, which I mentioned

8 earlier and Assembly Bill 5399, carried by

9 Assemblyman Carroll, which would establish a

10 moratorium of fossil fuel infrastructure.

11 Trust transition provisions should be

12 added to ensure displaced fossil fuel and nuclear

13 workers are given preference for new green jobs.

14 The CCPA has excellent standards ensure workers

15 are paid prevailing wages, apprenticeship

16 programs, safety policies and more, we encourage

17 a step further is taken to make sure that hiring

18 preferences are given to displaced workers from

19 the fossil fuel and nuclear sectors.

20 Targets should be set for transportation

21 and building sectors. Thirty-four percent of

22 greenhouse gas emissions are generated in the

23 transportation sector. To meet emissions targets,

24 New York must move to phase out all fossil fuel

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2 vehicles including personal cars and buses. Bus

3 fleets will need to electrified, funding and

4 build out of public transit must be prioritized

5 and incentives for electric vehicles must be

6 expanded, plus charging stations.

7 Reporting on compliance and monitoring

8 of greenhouse gas emissions must be readily

9 available for the public. CCPA requires various

10 reports, however, we think that a type of score

11 card would be very important to include so the

12 public can easily understand what could be

13 technical and wonky information. We think such a

14 report should be given out annually and reports

15 on how the state is complying with the CCPA or

16 any climate law.

17 So, specifically we have some

18 recommendations for the CCPA. As I mentioned

19 earlier, we have a recommendation net zero

20 percent above 1990 emissions by 2030. We believe

21 a goal to achieve 100 percent renewable energy

22 should be done by 2030. And we also have some

23 recommendations regarding the scoping plan in

24 this legislation. Right now, there may not be

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2 anything implemented until 2025 based on how the

3 CCPA is currently written, so we’ve recommended

4 either a fast track panel that would convene

5 immediately after the effective date of this

6 legislation. That panel would produce

7 recommendations for actions that could be taken

8 within the next five years. Alternatively,

9 language could be adopted directly into the law

10 to instruct agencies to take actions on things we

11 can do right away such as energy efficiency,

12 retrofitting buildings, installing solar panels

13 on state owned lands, et cetera.

14 And as I mentioned earlier, we encourage

15 language to be added regarding an annual public

16 report card about the effectiveness of the law

17 and how the state is complying. Most importantly,

18 of everything I’ve said today, we need to get

19 this done. The technology is not the problem.

20 This is a matter of political will. And

21 thankfully, I’m before a crowd that knows about

22 the need for rapid action. You’ve heard earlier

23 the stories of impacts New Yorkers are already

24 facing because of climate change. Other states

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2 are already moving and now it’s New York’s time.

3 Maryland recently passed a bill 50 percent by

4 2030, goal 100 percent by 2040. Illinois,

5 California, Hawaii, a lot of these bills have

6 some great measures, but we all know this, New

7 York State can do better. New York State is

8 expected to lead. This is today’s great space

9 race so we need to step up to the challenge. No

10 more excuses. Thank you all for the opportunity

11 to testify today. [applause]

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

13 Rachel Spector, director, Environmental Justice

14 Program, New York Lawyers for the Public

15 Interest.

16 MS. RACHEL SPECTOR, DIRECTOR,

17 ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE PROGRAM, NEW YORK LAWYERS

18 FOR THE PUBLIC INTEREST: Hi, thank you, My name

19 is Rachel Spector. I’m representing New York

20 Lawyers for the Public Interest, often confused

21 with the New York Public Research Group. We are

22 different. Thank you so much Chair Englebright

23 and members of the committee for the opportunity

24 to speak with you today on how New York about

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2 best address the climate crisis in a way that

3 furthers equity in the state, best advances our

4 decarbonization goals and protects workers and

5 the communities most vulnerable to climate

6 change.

7 We can all agree in this room, climate

8 change is real, it’s happening now, its effects

9 on our state’s residents and economy will be

10 devastating if unchecked. The question that

11 remains for New York is how we address it and the

12 how is particularly important for New York’s low

13 income communities and communities of color who

14 have the most to gain or lose, depending on how

15 we go forward.

16 At New York Lawyers for the Public

17 Interest, where I direct the Environmental

18 Justice Program, we have worked for nearly three

19 decades to reduce the disproportionate

20 environmental hazards in low income communities

21 and communities of color in the New York City

22 area. We support the Climate and Community

23 Protection Act because it is the only climate

24 bill that ensures that the people on the

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2 frontlines of the climate crisis benefit

3 equitably from the transition to the renewable

4 energy economy.

5 The CCPA is the only climate bill to

6 address not just greenhouse gas emissions but to

7 truly prioritize reducing the co-pollutants that

8 harm the health of the people in the communities

9 we work with every day. As you’ve heard, sources

10 of both greenhouse gases and other air pollutants

11 from power plants to industrial facilities to

12 diesel trucks are disproportionately concentrated

13 in communities of color and low income

14 communities.

15 These communities are also more likely

16 to experience unemployment and disinvestment, as

17 well as to be more vulnerable to the effects of

18 climate change like storm surge and urban heat

19 islands. The CCPA’s equity provisions ensure that

20 we prioritize these communities as we invest in

21 new infrastructure and renewable energy and that

22 our measures to address greenhouse gas emissions

23 eliminate rather than exacerbate pollution in

24 these communities.

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2 I do want to clarify that the CCPA

3 incorporates what I would call a pretty

4 sophisticated measure to identify who is included

5 in disadvantaged. I think it’s a kind of

6 unfortunate term that’s used in the bill, but in

7 disadvantaged communities, the bill sets up an

8 environmental justice working group that will

9 evaluate numerous factors from cumulative

10 environmental pollution, health outcomes,

11 employment and unemployment measures, energy

12 burdens, vulnerability to climate change,

13 poverty, many factors in determining which

14 communities are truly the most cumulatively

15 disadvantaged in New York State and need the

16 priority of these investments.

17 The provision to invest at least 40

18 percent of climate and energy funds to benefit

19 low income, frontline and communities of colors

20 is a key provision of the CCPA that will

21 ultimately benefit the state as a whole because

22 investments in these communities will have the

23 highest impact. Displacing polluting

24 infrastructure has substantial public health

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2 benefits that will save the state money and

3 avoided hospital admissions and other associated

4 health costs. Investing in jobs in these

5 communities, which experience higher rates of

6 unemployment, will also have a higher return for

7 the state.

8 I want to clarify a few additional

9 elements of this provision. First, the 40 percent

10 figure tracks the percentage of New Yorkers who

11 are people of color, which is 42 percent and the

12 percentage of households making less than $50,000

13 a year, which is 44 percent. So this 40 percent

14 figure really simply ensures that we are

15 directing investments equitably across our state.

16 Second, the CCPA specifies funds to

17 which the 40 percent investment mandate would

18 apply. It’s far from a mandate governing all

19 government spending or all government spending

20 related to climate and energy. And third, the

21 requirement to invest funds in a manner that will

22 benefit disadvantaged communities leaves the

23 state a great deal of flexibility to invest in

24 projects ranging from energy efficiency and

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2 weatherization in low income communities, and I

3 think you’ve heard today how crucial that is for

4 people, to community based renewables to climate

5 mitigation and even in offshore wind power if

6 that investment would lead directly to the

7 permanent shutdown of polluting power plants in

8 environmental justice communities.

9 The CCPA zero emission pathway by 2050

10 is a also a critical provision, both for

11 environmental justice communities and the state

12 as a whole. It is critical to maintain the zero

13 emissions benchmark in the CCPA and not weaken

14 the bill with a net zero approach facilitated by

15 problematic strategies like carbon offsets. Any

16 steps to broadly allow for carbon offsets will

17 send an extremely harmful signal for polluters

18 that they will be able to continue with business

19 as usual.

20 For New York’s low income communities

21 and communities of color, business as usual is

22 not an option. Allowing an industrial facility in

23 the Bronx to continue its operations while

24 purchasing carbon offsets that purport to protect

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2 forests in Brazil does not eliminate harmful co-

3 pollutants in the Bronx and it will significantly

4 diminish the public health benefits of the CCPA.

5 This is unjust. It’s also economically unsound

6 and unwise for New York State.

7 Incorporating carbon offsets could

8 actually diminish the effectiveness of the CCPA

9 to reduce overall carbon emissions. Offsets

10 provide a loophole that will allow the continued

11 use of fossil fuels here in New York and can be a

12 drag on new development of technologies to reduce

13 emissions. Offset programs are difficult to

14 regulate and monitor and many have questionable

15 impact on greenhouse gas emissions. I think you

16 heard about the requirements that RGGI puts in

17 place for offsets and that is because they are so

18 difficult to monitor and to ensure that they’re

19 done correctly. A recent study estimates that

20 many of the credited negative emissions from

21 California’s offset program purchased through the

22 U.S. Forestry protocol were possibly wildly

23 overestimated because the offsets may have simply

24 served to shift timber harvesting elsewhere.

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2 Given the seriousness of the climate

3 crisis, New York cannot take the risk of relying

4 on unproven offset programs. Even so called

5 carbon neutral approach can promote alternative

6 energy sources that harm low income communities

7 like wasted to energy and some biofuels.

8 I also want to clarify that we are

9 extremely suspicion of market based solutions.

10 They’re suspect for various reasons. And for

11 example, while RGGI gets a lot of credit for

12 really reducing greenhouse gas emissions here in

13 New York State, most experts agree that the way

14 its pricing works is just not enough to have a

15 real effect and really this reduction is due to

16 the economics of the benefits of a transition to

17 natural gas.

18 Thoughtful people have raised concerns

19 about the feasibility of the CCPA’s zero

20 emissions approach. While these questions are

21 legitimate for a small percentage of New York’s

22 emissions, particularly those from certain

23 industrial operations, we must remember that

24 there will be rapid advances in technology over

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2 the next 30 years and we should not weaken our

3 goals simply because we have yet to develop

4 certain technologies to reduce emissions. We must

5 also remember and hope and pray that New York may

6 be the first to act in our region, but we will

7 not be alone. Future regional and hopefully

8 federal level action will address emissions from

9 interstate sources that New York cannot reach

10 with our state legislation.

11 And I just want to stress again that

12 CCPA is really a framework for moving forward.

13 It’s not a prescription. The bill sets up an

14 inclusive and iterative process for the state to

15 determine how it will reduce greenhouse gas

16 emissions. It incorporates significant

17 flexibility for assessment and adaptation over

18 the next 30 years in what will undoubtedly be a

19 rapidly changing technological and regulatory

20 landscape. If there are certain carbon emissions

21 that cannot be eliminated by 2050, the CCPA now

22 builds in regulatory flexibility that will allow

23 the state to make the necessary adjustments at

24 that time.

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2 By enacting the CCPA, New York has the

3 chance to set the standard for a robust economy

4 wide carbon reduction policy that ensures equity

5 and protection for workers and those on the

6 frontlines of the carbon crisis. We cannot shrink

7 from this task or this opportunity. Thank you.

8 [applause]

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

10 Stephan Idel, project director, New York Working

11 Families.

12 MR. STEPHAN EDEL, PROJECT DIRECTOR, NEW

13 YORK WORKING FAMILIES: Thank you very much

14 Chairman Englebright and the other assembly

15 members here and not able to join us and those

16 watching on the live stream. My name is Stephan

17 Idel, I’m the project director at New York

18 Working Families and I’m very happy to join this

19 panel and this conversation and express our

20 strong support for New York making aggressive

21 action on climate a priority this session and I

22 look forward to standing with all of you when

23 this passes this year.

24 We’ve been engaged in climate policy for

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2 the last decade working since creating Green Jobs

3 Green New York with partners around the state

4 trying to move the state forward. And the CCPA is

5 the direct result of community groups and

6 advocates around the state looking at the last

7 decade of work and realizing we need to do more.

8 While an energy transition is

9 unavoidable, right, it is going to happen. Doing

10 so in a just and effective way that avoids the

11 worst impact of climate change is not

12 unavoidable. It is entirely possible for us to

13 continue doing it wrong. And other speakers have

14 talked today about why our current program

15 spending and our current efforts are not meeting

16 the challenge ahead of us. But I will go into a

17 little bit of detail about why we think the CCPA

18 framework is really key in driving this

19 transition and why whatever legislation comes out

20 of the final negotiations needs to maintain the

21 core values that are in the CCPA and the details

22 thereof matter.

23 We need the CCPA or the final

24 legislation to be ambitious, right, and we

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2 believe that it is vital that that means

3 eliminating all harmful and climate impacting

4 emissions. There may need to be flexibility.

5 There is in the bill. There may be need to be

6 questions about that, but the core goal we all

7 should share and that the legislation must embody

8 is eliminating all of the emissions that are

9 literally killing people in our communities and

10 driving global climate change, killing people

11 today.

12 Second, it needs to be enforceable. For

13 too long we’ve failed to meet goals. So the

14 enforcement mechanisms in the bill including the

15 climate and equity screens and a hard legislative

16 mandate must be there. Third, it needs to be

17 equitable. Right. We need a climate about ill

18 that addresses climate change while centering and

19 lifting up those burdened by both economic and

20 environmental burdens. It is not just that this

21 is the right thing to do, but that history has

22 shown that we will not meet the challenge of

23 climate change if we don’t do it. Doing this

24 wrong and missing out on these equity provisions

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2 not just raises barriers by pitting communities

3 against each other, but it also means that we are

4 going miss out on the benefits that we get in

5 terms of health, economic development and

6 community benefit to doing it right.

7 We must invest at least 40 percent of

8 the funds because it is both sensible and

9 equitable to do so. We also need to have all of

10 these programs work in tandem and that’s the goal

11 of the equity and climate screen built into it,

12 which is often sort of left out. The goal of

13 these programs, pieces of the CCPA is not to

14 simply complicate the lives of legislators,

15 right, or to complicate the lives of regulators,

16 but to make sure that every agency is actually

17 working towards ensuring that we are meeting

18 these dual goals.

19 This Climate and Community Protection

20 Act is unusual, right? And applause to the

21 Assembly who has led on this for years in saying

22 we have to link these two things and often when

23 we get questions and challenges to the 40 percent

24 mandate or to other elements of this bill on

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2 equity, it is because people outside do not

3 understand the key linkage that the Assembly has

4 fought for. We have to do these two pieces

5 together.

6 We also need, as part of that equitable

7 transition, to ensure that we’re creating good

8 jobs. The governor has taken important steps in

9 attaching labor standards to large scale

10 renewable, but it should not be a project by

11 project negotiation. Communities and particularly

12 those impacted by the transition cannot rely on

13 individual one-off negotiations. We need a broad

14 and transformative approach that creates higher

15 road jobs and better working conditions across

16 the state. That means better jobs. But it also

17 means better quality work, it means economies of

18 scale and it improves our communities not just

19 because workers are being paid more but because

20 higher skilled, better paid workers produce

21 better results.

22 I’m going to go into two points in a

23 little more detail. We support the 100 percent

24 mandate and I want to talk a little bit more

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2 about that, for several reasons. A net zero

3 approach, and I think it’s valuable for us to

4 take a step back and I’ll deviate a little from

5 my written comments, which I think are a little

6 duplicative of what people have said.

7 We’ve had a lot of people explain why we

8 are concerned about net zero and I think other

9 people later on hopefully will explain why

10 they’re for it. But I think it’s important for us

11 to recognize that there are areas of emissions

12 that we do not either currently have the legal

13 authority or the technology to address. We

14 believe that the CCPA has flexibility built into

15 it but those advocates pushing for net zero think

16 we need to have offsets, one of the core reasons,

17 to make it possible to achieve emission

18 reductions equivalent to those sectors that we

19 have trouble dealing with right now.

20 And our analysis is and I think this is

21 borne out by experience, that using offsets that

22 way is likely to permanently keep pollution in

23 communities of color, right, whereas if our goal

24 that I think we all share is to eliminate that

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2 pollution, then we need to figure out ways to

3 address it and taking them out of the mandate

4 changes the technology driving, it changes the

5 policy landscape, it changes the regulatory

6 landscape and it says okay, we don’t have to deal

7 with that, right. We need 100 percent standard

8 because we need to deal with that and what’s not

9 acceptable for the State of New York to say we

10 don’t know how we’re going the do it, so we’re

11 not going to do it, or we need partnership from

12 the state.

13 Offsets have also been help up as an

14 opportunity to have investment in rural

15 communities and agriculture and forestry. And

16 those are vital things to do, right. Our goal

17 should be to have both an elimination of our

18 emissions and draw down as much carbon from the

19 atmosphere as we can. New York is in an almost

20 unique position of having the opportunity and the

21 strength to do this. And so aiming to do both, to

22 me, I think is the best policy approach. And if

23 there are areas where we have to struggle to

24 figure out how to reduce those emissions, let’s

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2 do it, but we don’t say we are going have a

3 market for energy efficiency. We incentivize it

4 and we mandate it through energy codes. We don’t

5 way we want renewable energy, so we’re not going

6 have any incentives we are just going to have a

7 market. We subsidize that market with direct

8 investment and incentives.

9 I don’t understand why advocates who

10 want to see investment as I do, in rural

11 communities, in agriculture and in land use think

12 that a market that attaches offsets to those

13 projects are the only way to achieve it.

14 So I’ll talk for one more minute about

15 equity. I think we talk about equity a lot and

16 it’s very important that we have shared

17 definitions. If we do not have a just transition

18 in New York, we will be missing a huge

19 opportunity and advocates in businesses are

20 calling for changes to the bill because they are

21 genuinely working to make this transition happen

22 and I don’t doubt anybody’s intentions. But it’s

23 vital that these core provisions remain strong,

24 right. The 40 percent provision, I talked about,

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2 but also the labor standards, right. Requirements

3 that communities have access to these jobs

4 developed at a regional level. And a whole host

5 of other provisions in the bill are there because

6 they actually will make the provision of energy

7 efficiency renewables and other services stronger

8 and more effective, not simply because they’re

9 the right thing to do and other speakers have

10 addressed that.

11 We need to keep these features of the

12 bill strong because it’s the right thing to do

13 but it’s also necessary to make it work. And if

14 we are actually asking for this as some sort of

15 remuneration for pollution in communities, we

16 should be asking for a much larger proportion of

17 funds. But 40 percent is the bare minimum we

18 should be asking for and attaching a requirement

19 that agencies consider equity in how they’re

20 making policy decisions seems again, to be the

21 bare minimum.

22 Attaching basic labor standards to

23 provisions of public funds again is a bare

24 minimum standard. And again, you will all be

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2 called on to negotiate many of these details. But

3 those core elements have to be there for this to

4 be a strong and effective bill, not just because

5 they’re the right thing to do.

6 If I can leave you with one last thing

7 today as we are running down time in this session

8 as I know all of you are looking at the calendar

9 and we are fighting over many other issues that

10 are deeply vital to the state, and that I

11 encourage you to act quickly. It is very likely

12 that in a bill this complicated getting

13 negotiated in the last minutes of session or the

14 last hours of session, there will be problems

15 even if all of us agree and I don’t know that we

16 all agree. And so I encourage you and offer our

17 support in getting anything we can do to get this

18 across the finish line as soon as we can and good

19 luck with that negotiation and your work the rest

20 of the session on this and other issues and

21 thanks again for the opportunity to speak today.

22 [applause]

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

24 very much. Questions? Mr. Carroll.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: Good

3 afternoon. Thank you all so much for testifying.

4 I have questions for Mr. Hang. Your analysis of

5 what the State of New York can do via wind and

6 solar is somewhat sobering. And so I would ask

7 why do you think that the proposed offshore wind

8 farm on Long Island, the 9,000 megawatt wind

9 farm, as well as the proposal of I think 6,000

10 gigawatts of distributed solar throughout the

11 state is either implausible or fanciful or won’t

12 meet at least some of our energy needs and then

13 looking at Germany, and I don’t -- I just have

14 kind of back of the envelope anecdotal evidence,

15 looking at a country like Germany, which I think

16 produces about ten percent of its energy needs

17 off of wind and maybe about five or six percent

18 of its energy needs off solar, that why we can’t

19 assume at least similar numbers in the next

20 decade from those resources? And then coupling

21 them with hydroelectric and, I know that you

22 don’t consider some of the biomasses as truly

23 renewable, but must be considered better than

24 natural gas power plants or -- and to further

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2 couple it with, I agree with you that if we can

3 make -- I live in a 72 unit co-op building in

4 Brooklyn. You have to open the windows in, you

5 know, December, January, February, and March

6 because it is overheated. And so I think there is

7 much more we can do in making sure that we don’t

8 overheat or overcool our buildings in New York

9 City. I know that’s a mouthful but can you answer

10 all that and succinctly?

11 MR. HANG: I can and I will do my best.

12 So number one, let me deal with Germany. Germany

13 is burning material at a level that is hard to

14 believe. I traveled with former EnCon chair

15 Maurice Hinchey and assembly staff to study

16 garbage incineration in Germany. They burn

17 lignite. This is this brown coal, this is like

18 the most polluting crap you can imagine. So you

19 always hear all those stories, you know, oh this

20 is like wind and solar nirvana. I’ve got nothing

21 against wind and solar, but when you go to

22 Germany, they burn lignite. They burn garbage.

23 They’re just burning a lot. In the recent New

24 York Times article, there was talk about how

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2 Copenhagen and Denmark are going to be totally

3 energy sustainable, but then they talk about a

4 giant garbage incinerator. We went to Copenhagen

5 and met with the head of the environment as well.

6 So the record of the Assembly is that it

7 is by far the most important I believe,

8 legislative leader in America when it comes to

9 these vice mayor matters. That’s -- these

10 environmental matters. That’s your record.

11 So let me talk about the wind and the

12 solar. Toxics Targeting just compiles the

13 available data. We don’t predict, we don’t model.

14 We don’t do any of that. We just look at the

15 data. However, with regard to the Long Island

16 offshore wind project, so my company is an

17 environmental database firm. We typically help

18 engineers and consultants. So I think I’ve been

19 working on that project for like 20 years through

20 a firm called EEA, Energy and Environmental

21 associates. Now they’re called GEI and they may

22 change by the time this thing actually happens.

23 So again, I’ve got nothing against wind,

24 I’ve got nothing against solar. It’s just that

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2 these huge projects are very, very complicated.

3 With regard to solar, you can see it yourself, .8

4 percent after 30 years. When I looked at the New

5 York ISO report, I would always see the same

6 level on the graph for solar, so I found the

7 person who actually generates the data and I said

8 there are 80,000 solar installations in New York,

9 it has to be going up. He says it’s a rounding

10 error. So these roof top installations, they’re

11 just not generating very much energy. The larger

12 installations, they can generate more. But so far

13 it just hasn’t made a dent, even since the

14 governor announced the 50 percent by 2030.

15 So again, the beauty of what I propose,

16 to just segue a little bit, is doesn’t conflict

17 in any way with wind and solar, right, it just

18 cuts our energy demand. And you said it yourself.

19 If you are opening your windows in the middle of

20 the winter, that is just a profound statement

21 about how our buildings are not managing energy

22 to minimize the amount. And the potential is

23 enormous, not only in big cities like New York,

24 which has one of the lowest energy per capita

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2 rates in the country, right, because you don’t

3 have cars, as was noted. But imagine all across

4 Long Island, tens of thousands of small

5 companies, small crews, just driving around,

6 knocking off a couple houses each week with blown

7 cellulose insulation that is made with chopped up

8 newspaper and magazines, you add a little bit of

9 borax. This is simple stuff, right? You don’t

10 have to have an engineering degree to do this and

11 you can earn a decent living and there’s two

12 billion in the till that I believe can be

13 dedicated to this.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: I guess my

15 concern, Mr. Hang is that even though I agree

16 with you that making our buildings more energy

17 efficient could reduce our energy consumption, it

18 seems that through just human development, we

19 continually consume more and more energy. For

20 instance, if we decide to electrify every single

21 automobile in New York State or if we decide to

22 electrify all of our cooking, our heating, our

23 cooling, and so what concerns me, and it’s not

24 that I disagree with your findings, is that have

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2 you, in your research, found that even a country

3 like Germany, and I guess the answer is no, that

4 is held out as a gold standard of ramping up

5 production of wind and solar in a relatively

6 short period of time, is it quixotic in our

7 thinking to think that we could ramp up wind and

8 solar at such a level in the next 20 years to

9 make a meaningful dent in the production of

10 electricity in New York?

11 MR. HANG: You know, I wish it were so.

12 I mean people have been trying day and night,

13 night and day for literally decades. I mean I’ve

14 seen people today that, you know, didn’t used to

15 be old and gray when they were advocating this.

16 So I wish it were so. It’s just very, very slow

17 going. I mean my company checks big wind farms,

18 like Marble River, right. There aren’t many

19 projects. I mean Assemblywoman Lifton and I

20 recently -- well, a couple years ago, listened to

21 a presentation where very, very renowned

22 academicians and advocates of wind and solar were

23 complaining that many of the projects were

24 backsliding. In our own Tompkins County, a Black

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2 Oak Wind Farm proposal basically never went

3 forward. Recently, I understand out of western

4 New York near Buffalo some proposals were

5 sidelined. So again, I got nothing against any of

6 that. But as Al Smith always used to say, let’s

7 look at the record. Let’s look at the reality of

8 it.

9 And so that’s how come the beauty of my

10 proposal, with all respect is it’s 50/50. So

11 there was originally five billion, some of that’s

12 been spent. So I say half for wind and solar, you

13 can get all the solar farms and wind farms that

14 you can get. But then half, right, for minimizing

15 energy consumption. And if you think what I’m

16 proposing is hard or impossible, I invite to you

17 go to your local Home Depot, go to Lowe’s, go to

18 your hardware store, you can see the blown

19 cellulose green leaf insulation right on the

20 shelf. This is so simple. I used to drive by

21 Front Street on Binghamton and there was a whole

22 block of totally dilapidated buildings and they

23 were renovated and you could see the Tyvek placed

24 on the buildings to seal out the drafts and there

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2 were little crews dragging their little trailers

3 for about a year. And now that is an amazingly

4 lovely, inviting terrific block and I say why

5 can’t we do that all over New York? Why can’t we

6 employ generations of crafts people to do this

7 work? In Tompkins County, there are 10,000

8 housing units. So we could knock that off in ten

9 to 20 years. This is not rocket science. It

10 doesn’t need the development of new battery

11 technology or new this, that or anything.

12 You can buy, on a final note, a

13 programmable thermostat for 20 bucks. And it will

14 save 10 percent of your energy. What’s the

15 problem? Older people don’t know how to use them,

16 right. So we need the meter readers to do it for

17 them or you have to be able to do it from off

18 site. So I’m just very, very practical. I mean

19 when I started out, I thought I was going to cure

20 cancer in one summer. I thought we were going to

21 clean up all the toxic dumps, you know, I thought

22 we were going to protect all the drinking water.

23 Now 40 years later, we’ve learned a lot, we’ve

24 made a lot of progress, and I used to lobby for a

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2 living.

3 So again, everything that I’m proposing,

4 it’s all directed at the governor, but you can

5 support it and it wouldn’t, in any way, conflict

6 with your solar and wind and sustainable hopes

7 and dreams or your very important legislative

8 initiatives. So you’re going to be busy in the

9 next couple of weeks. But I’ve already spoken to

10 the chair about this. It’s money in the till, in

11 the governor’s own Built to Lead agenda. He just

12 didn’t implement it. And this is where the

13 Assembly has the ability to provide so much

14 strong leadership. That’s what everyone is

15 staying saying here today that the Assembly is

16 the leader. We’re here testifying because you

17 play that critical role.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER CARROLL: Thank you, Mr.

19 Hang.

20 MR. HANG: Thank you.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Judy

22 Griffin.

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER GRIFFIN: Thank you all

24 for your informative testimony. I just have a

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2 question to any of you who might have this

3 answer. I just wonder has any analysis been done

4 on lifestyle? For example, I have a good friend

5 that lives in Germany, although I haven’t been

6 there. And in Germany, she said -- she lived here

7 for a while and she just couldn’t get over -- I

8 represent Long Island, so I’m on Southwestern

9 Nassau County. So lots of people, pretty much

10 everyone in a house has a green lawn. How do they

11 get that green lawn, through a landscaper, having

12 a lot of pesticides applied to your lawn. In

13 Germany no one has a green lawn, they have a

14 garden instead. In Long Island pretty much, I

15 live close to my town, so I can walk into town to

16 go out to dinner and so forth. Or I can ride a

17 bike. But you know, you could live three miles

18 away, no one ever thinks oh, let’s all meet and

19 ride a bike. She says in Germany, no one thinks

20 about taking a car. They just hey, what time are

21 you going? Okay, I’ll meet you there and everyone

22 rides their bike.

23 It’s like given things that really

24 preserve the environment. And I just wonder, it

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2 seems basic, but that would be a great start if

3 people changed some attitudes. And I wondered is

4 any of that ever measured or is any of that ever

5 analyzed?

6 MR. EDEL: I’ll go first but I imagine

7 other people have a thought. Yes, there are a lot

8 of people doing that work. I think in the

9 legislative context, there are tools and I think

10 having a mandate and having the focus of

11 government change can help, right. For the issues

12 you’re talking about, there are two different

13 pieces of that. And it’s vital, I think as

14 legislators you understand both and how they’re

15 interrelated.

16 If you live in a community where there

17 is no public transit and your community is

18 designed poorly for bicycling, it doesn’t matter

19 how much we educate you on bicycling. At the same

20 time, it would be valuable to educate people. We

21 worked for over a decade on energy efficiency and

22 one of the things that strikes me is most people

23 don’t know that you can reduce your energy bills

24 dramatically and make your home more comfortable.

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2 And that often when community groups were

3 contracted by the state to do this, the things

4 that got folks in the door in Long Island with

5 Long Island Green Homes or Green Job New York was

6 simply saying things like actually it’s not about

7 saving money even, right. Nobody really believes

8 they’re going to save money. It’s the fact that

9 your sun room is suddenly comfortable in the

10 summer. It’s not too hot. It’s you don’t need to

11 open your windows in the winter to cool down

12 because the heat is too high.

13 As we move forward, the state needs to

14 invest in actually shaping those ideas and

15 educating people on these things and that piece

16 of it and the implementation and education that

17 go along with these legal mandates or even

18 spending in the budget often is not a priority.

19 And so I’d encourage you to continue that. There

20 is research and I’d be happy to pull some

21 together. I’m sure other speakers can, on what

22 helps with that, but the very practical thing

23 that you all can do is to say if this bill

24 passes, the next day you all need to have a forum

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2 with your communities and say here’s what this

3 means for you and why it’s actually going to be

4 beneficial.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER GRIFFIN: Okay. Thank

6 you.

7 MR. HANG: So my company helps most of

8 the drinking water purveyors in Nassau County.

9 And you are right. The lawns are phenomenal. When

10 you go to Plainview, man, they are nice. They

11 don’t make money selling water to people who

12 drink it. They sell the water to water lawns and

13 wash cars, so in wet summers they’re all

14 depressed, really dry, they’re happy. So my point

15 is that you’re trying to change how people think

16 about these matters. And again, this is exactly

17 what the Assembly’s history is all about.

18 When the West Side Highway, which used

19 to be five blocks from here to the west, had a

20 collapse, a truck fell through it, the Assembly

21 led the nation on the need to deal with

22 infrastructure investment. And that was Speaker

23 Fink, David Langdon and so they had commissions,

24 they had reports and they made that a national

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2 priority.

3 Same thing with the legislative

4 commission on solid waste management, I mean when

5 all these landfill problems, again on Long Island

6 in Nassau and Suffolk County, when I was on 60

7 Minutes, for the Port Washington Municipal

8 landfill, when Tom DiNapoli was a local activist,

9 we got on 60 Minutes and then the EPA issued an

10 order to shut down 26,000 open garbage dumps and

11 that’s where that legislative commission came in.

12 That’s how we went to Germany, that’s how we came

13 up with a total recycling proposal. But the key

14 thing is the Assembly took the action, they

15 didn’t invest for the most part in incinerators,

16 they invested in reduction, recycle and reuse

17 composting and now all of that has to be revised.

18 So this is what the Assembly is good at,

19 framing policy discussions on very complicated

20 issues and then working with members, working

21 with leadership, to make sure that things are

22 done. And that’s why I’m so proud to be here

23 because when I look at you people, and Barbara in

24 particular, it’s achievement that’s not symbolic.

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2 We solved huge problems. We stopped the biggest

3 polluters on the planet, at least for now. So I

4 commend you all and I urge you to think and talk

5 to your program and committee staff.

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER GRIFFIN: Thank you.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Barbara

8 Lifton.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Just quickly a

10 few things. Stephan, thank you for -- I’ve

11 enjoyed your testimony as I did everyone’s --

12 thank you for wishing us all good luck as we,

13 especially our chair and staff, as they work on

14 negotiating this critical agreement. But I want

15 to say good luck to all of you and all New

16 Yorkers because we don’t accomplish these things

17 alone. We’re talking about a major shift in

18 governmental policy and our economy. This takes a

19 lot of New Yorkers weighing in. We didn’t stop

20 fracking in the back halls of Albany. We stopped

21 fracking because 200,000 New Yorkers weighed in

22 on the environmental impact statement with the

23 DEC. And other things happened. But it takes a

24 lot of people to change major government policy

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2 and to shift direction, so everyone who cares

3 about this needs to get involved. All lists need

4 to be activated, to speak to all three parties,

5 to this negotiation, the Assembly, the Senate and

6 the Governor. So thank you. But thank you for the

7 that.

8 MR. EDEL: Thank you.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Rachel, just a

10 correction, there. Again, very good testimony.

11 Did I hear you talk about switching to gas? I’m

12 going to hammer on the gas issue every time it

13 comes up. Did you say something about switching

14 to natural gas?

15 MR. SPECTOR: I think that was just to

16 clarify in terms of RGGI and sort of debates

17 about the impact of RGGI and how that market-

18 based system has driven greenhouse gas emissions.

19 There’s debate about this but, you know, but

20 there’s some agreement that it was not RGGI per

21 se as the driver, but the overall economic visit

22 that drove the shift to natural gas.

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Okay. You were

24 not recommending a shift to natural gas?

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2 MS. SPECTOR: No, no, no. I was

3 clarifying that it was --

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: You were using

5 that as a causative?

6 MS. SPECTOR: -- that that was, yeah. A

7 larger economic [unintelligible] [02:48:59],

8 yeah.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Okay. Thank

10 you. I didn’t catch that clearly. Thank you for

11 that clarification. And Walter and anyone else

12 who wants to weigh in here. Walter, you seem to

13 be talking mostly about homes, but did you also

14 say businesses and institutions in New York State

15 would be subject to these kinds of --

16 MR. HANG: Absolutely. Again, the policy

17 should be that the available money should be

18 available to retrofit in a deep manner, homes,

19 schools, places of worship. You and I have talked

20 about SUNY, CUNY. I mean everyone that’s out

21 there should be offered an opportunity to cut

22 their energy demand by a third if not more. They

23 pay half and then the Clean Energy Fund pays

24 half. And for a single family home, you had your

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2 home retrofitted for about ten grand.

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: You know too

4 much about me, Walter.

5 MR. HANG: [laughter] Shows you, no --

6 so ten grand is a lot for an ordinary person,

7 right. But if you knock it down to $5,000 and you

8 split it, that’s 2,500 bucks. You can amortize

9 that debt in three years. As a sidebar, if we

10 come up with the insulation, the cost goes down

11 even more. So one of the problems we have is that

12 there are recycling programs all across New York

13 that are hanging by a thread because China won’t

14 take our waste paper anymore.

15 And so we could chop up that paper and

16 add a little bit of borax to it and that’s blown

17 cellulose insulation instead of spending eight to

18 $13 a cubic yard at home depot, you can make it

19 available without charge and that would even

20 further reduce the cost of these retrofits. So I

21 think the policy has to be as broad as possible

22 in order to get the biggest bang for the buck.

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Did you say

24 that with on bill recovery, it would put caps in

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2 place because one of the worries with saving, you

3 know, doing and retrofits and insulation and so

4 on is that well, I have more money, I’ll expand

5 my home. I’ll use the same amount of energy,

6 it’ll just be cheaper. Are you implying that

7 there’s a cap when you use on bill recovery of

8 some sort? How do we cap energy use at the same

9 time that we’re reducing demand?

10 MR. HANG: So the tricky part is, let me

11 deal with the simple part first. So you get the

12 money from Clean Energy Fund, you pay half, the

13 Clean Energy Fund pays half and you cut your

14 energy by a third and for a family home, you now

15 can pocket $800 after roughly three years. So

16 people might take that $800 and say wow, I need

17 another bedroom or I need a carport or whatever.

18 So that’s their own decision.

19 My initiative is limited to just saying

20 the utilities front the money and then you pay

21 back your share through the on bill system and

22 your utility bill cannot go up. You only pay off

23 the debt with the energy savings so that’s the

24 general idea. In fact Mark Dunlea here, I think

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2 has worked on this for many years. So this is an

3 existing system, but I don’t say that you can’t

4 add a bedroom to your house.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: And just to end

6 quickly, you’re saying that the Clean Energy

7 Fund, the money has got about $2 billion sitting

8 there now and it’s unencumbered? It’s --

9 MR. HANG: No, I think it’s closer to

10 five.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Five now there?

12 MR. HANG: And so what happens is, as

13 you heard, is that the utilities collect it and

14 then once a year, they give it to New York State.

15 But again, when you look at how much money is

16 available to support solar and wind, which isn’t

17 really being used, or it’s not really expanding,

18 I think there could be quite a bit in the till.

19 Whatever’s left in the till from the original $5

20 billion, I say take half of it and give it to

21 energy minimization because we know it will work

22 and we know we won’t have to wait 30 years to get

23 it ramped up. We can start right away.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: And it fills up

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2 again every year?

3 MR. HANG: Well, they collect more every

4 year and ultimately they’ll collect $5 billion

5 and so it keeps flowing to New York State. And

6 the governor, again, has existing authority and

7 you saw in his bill to lead statement, you can

8 use the Clean Energy Fund for this kind of energy

9 minimization and he can also reallocate the funds

10 because he’s already done that. The way it works

11 now is that you can qualify for very complicated

12 loan, particularly if you’re low income or medium

13 income.

14 So that again, that supports the idea

15 that people are talking about. We need to help

16 the communities and the individuals in New York

17 who need the most help. So that can be re-

18 jiggered as you see fit by working with the

19 governor. He has the authority to change the

20 funding allocation and the way that the money is

21 spent.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Thank you very

23 much. Thank you to the whole panel. Thank you.

24 MR. HANG: Thank you.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Jo Anne

3 Simon.

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Thank you. I

5 think that probably my question is addressed more

6 to NYLPI and NYPIRG and that is to go back to the

7 issue of environmental reviews, and how well they

8 work and what suggests might exist for making

9 them more useful for our purposes for reducing

10 greenhouse gases, et cetera. I don’t know whether

11 you have any thoughts on that, but I know I’ve

12 worked with NYLPI years ago and a lot of these

13 are transportation projects, but they’re not

14 exclusively transportation projects. And that

15 environmental review process is unsatisfactory.

16 MS. SPECTOR: So I think, and Stephan

17 was referring to the climate and equity screen.

18 So in the CCPA, there is specifically a screen so

19 any action that a government agency is going to

20 take, are they going to approve a project or

21 issue a permit, are they going to renew a permit,

22 right, there has to be a specific screen about

23 what are the greenhouse gas emission effects of

24 this proposed project or whatever that you are

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2 approving and they cannot increase greenhouse gas

3 emissions and similarly, an equity screen. So

4 would this action cause some kind of burden, a

5 disproportionate burden on low income

6 communities, communities of color. So both of

7 those concepts, which I think is what you are

8 getting at are embedded in the CCPA right now.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: I’m trying to

10 figure out how it would be done, like practically

11 speaking.

12 MS. SPECTOR: On a practical level.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: What does it

14 look like? And I’m just curious if you have

15 thoughts about that or suggestions.

16 MR. EDEL: Yeah, I mean two models we

17 looked at when we were in conversations about the

18 initial bill were California passed 535, a series

19 of climate legislation that included, you know,

20 equity language, a mandate for some spending to

21 go to those communities and what was created out

22 of it was a very detailed, what they call the Cal

23 Enviro Screen that does that.

24 So I think one answer is as agencies are

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2 doing the currently required environmental

3 review, that they would either have to have part

4 of that regulatory process address those issues

5 or I think ideally they would have to incorporate

6 a standardized equity and climate evaluation into

7 those decision makings.

8 And we’ve often sort of said, you know,

9 one could imagine at a very small level, when you

10 do permitting on something that doesn’t require

11 an environmental review, with the equity and

12 climate screens, now you would actually have to

13 take some action on that. And we think in

14 implementation that would mean a pretty detailed

15 evaluation, maybe not on every single, you know,

16 permit for a dog catcher, but on anything where

17 it’s substantive, you would have to take those

18 steps.

19 Now that might mean if you’re doing

20 something that requires a general environmental

21 impact survey study that GIS or any sort of

22 equivalent piece would have to be changed and the

23 regulations potentially over the next years and

24 this is part of why, as was said, it gives

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2 agencies some years to build out these regulatory

3 changes is because they would have to change

4 those processes to consider climate change

5 because often that is not a condition in

6 environmental impact studies. And they would need

7 guidance and assistance from many agencies, from

8 DEC in how to do that. Or I mean even within DEC

9 from other departments.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: So I guess, and

11 I appreciate that. Sort of a follow-up question,

12 because being on the ground on a lot of these

13 things, you’ve got a 3,000 page EIS and everybody

14 comments and there are holes and whatnot. And

15 then it gets ignored. And my biggest concern is

16 having it have teeth in a way that we can enforce

17 those teeth and I realize this probably is a

18 little more picayune than you wanted to deal with

19 today, but it’s a concern.

20 MS. SPECTOR: No, I think that’s

21 absolutely critical. As we all know, as you’re

22 saying, right, environmental impact statement,

23 it’s just a statement. There’s no meaningful,

24 enforceable obligation to do mitigation even if

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2 it’s in there. You know, there’s not a lot of

3 enforceability. So I think that is a critical

4 piece. And I think as Stephan said, there will

5 have to be regulatory changes to figure out the

6 best way to incorporate these greens and I think

7 making them enforceable.

8 But again, going back to overall

9 enforceability, that is in the CCPA and that’s

10 why the benchmarks and enforceability there are

11 important and the Article 78 process.

12 MS. MORAN: So NYPIRG strongly supports

13 the screening measures. I think maybe I

14 misunderstood. I thought you might have been

15 referencing something I had in my testimony, the

16 idea of a public report card idea because we want

17 all of the information that would be collected

18 through the CCPA, all these fantastic screens to

19 be understandable. So we don’t have details right

20 now, but something we are very interested in is

21 an annual report card that would track the

22 progress of how the state is doing in regards to

23 the different measures of CCPA, if there’s a way

24 to track how we are applying the equitability

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2 screening, for example. And this is actually part

3 of it, but we think the ease of access and like

4 how easily the public can understand this

5 information, the greenhouse gas emissions as

6 they’re being cut down by sector, we think those

7 should be reported on every year. That is in

8 CCPA. We just want to make sure it’s part of

9 something annual designed for the public for ease

10 of understanding so that can help with

11 enforcement because there would be a public

12 account ability angle to this.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER SIMON: Okay. Thank you,

14 that’s helpful.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

16 all very much. Thank you.

17 MS. MORAN: Thank you. [applause]

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Our next

19 panel. John Bartow, executive director Empire

20 State Forest Products Association and Darren

21 Suarez, senior director of governmental affairs

22 at the Business Council of New York State,

23 welcome. Who would like to begin?

24 MR. JOHN BARTOW, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,

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2 EMPIRE STATE FOREST PRODUCTS ASSOCIATION: I’ll

3 start.

4 DARREN SUAREZ, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF

5 GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, THE BUSINESS COUNCIL OF NEW

6 YORK STATE: Alphabetically.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Okay,

8 seems fair.

9 MR. BARTOW: Good afternoon and thank

10 you very much. My name is John Bartow, I’m the

11 executive director of the Empire State Forest

12 Products Association and we’d like to thank you

13 for the opportunity to testify and share our

14 views today. Our comments today will focus on the

15 role that our forests and the wood products

16 generated from them contribute to climate

17 solutions, how they protect disadvantaged

18 communities in rural New York and how to retain

19 their economy and good paying jobs.

20 With Washington paralyzed by partisan

21 gridlock, states are becoming laboratories for

22 innovation in tackling climate change head on.

23 New York is poised to lead but the stakes are

24 high. If Democrats with a significant majority in

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2 a key state like New York can’t get climate

3 change right, then comprehensive policy to

4 address climate change at the national level is

5 truly dead.

6 My comments today will focus on four

7 broad policy considerations as we move forward.

8 First are forests and the role in climate

9 solutions, wood products and their contribution

10 to long-term carbon sequestration, bio-energy and

11 the role it has in a carbon neutral or even

12 carbon positive policy and the economics of sound

13 carbon policy regarding forest and wood products.

14 The environmental contributions of New

15 York’s 19 million acres of forest are immense.

16 The forests filter our air, provide more than 50

17 percent of our public drinking water and are home

18 to a wide variety of wildlife. The wood from

19 these forests extends the environmental value of

20 the trees through long-term carbon storage in

21 buildings and the displacement of more fossil

22 fuel intensive materials like plastic, steel and

23 concrete. These forests cover 64 percent of our

24 landscape, contributing to the esthetic beauty

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2 and open space of New York. More importantly, 75

3 percent of these forests are privately owned and

4 managed.

5 Besides being our largest carbon sink

6 our sustainably managed forests increase our

7 resiliency to storms and catastrophic climate

8 events and allow our tree and wildlife species

9 within them to adapt and migrate to changing

10 climatic ecosystems. Research shows that the

11 greatest threat to our forest is conversion to

12 non-forest uses. Forest owners invest millions of

13 dollars in stewardship, road maintenance, forest

14 health treatments to prevent fire, insect

15 infestation and disease.

16 When private forest owners cannot

17 realize a return on their investment, they face

18 enormous economic pressure to turn their forest

19 land into something else that will provide them

20 an economic return. If the concept of using more

21 wood to protect forests seems counterintuitive,

22 consider how market forces work. When we build a

23 home, buy furniture made of wood or use a

24 cardboard box to send a gift a part of the money

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2 we pay finds its way back to the forest owner.

3 That money is the return on investment that

4 enables the forest owner to invest in the care

5 for the forest, creating strong demand for wood

6 and diverse wood product markets are the economic

7 armor protecting our private forest lands.

8 The use of biomass from managed forests

9 can provide numerous energy as well as

10 environmental and economic benefits.

11 Specifically, forest biomass used for energy can

12 bolster domestic energy production, provide jobs

13 to our rural communities and promote

14 environmental stewardship by improving air, soil

15 and water quality, enhancing wildlife habitat and

16 helping to ensure our forests continue to remove

17 and sequester carbon from the atmosphere.

18 Currently, many states recognize the use

19 of biomass as a renewable carbon beneficial

20 resource that is part of their climate policy.

21 The most recent IPCC report also assigns a higher

22 confidence on the use of bio-energy including

23 biomass due to its potential for replacing fossil

24 fuels across all sectors. The same IPCC report

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2 also concludes that the failure to reach our

3 targets, the only renewable energy resource that

4 can be used to reduce carbon below zero is bio-

5 energy combined with carbon capture and storage.

6 Biomass has tremendous value in the

7 combined heat and power, manufacturing,

8 transportation and thermal sectors of New York’s

9 energy economy. We should not preclude or

10 overlook climate policy that supports this. We

11 are not asking that every sector of the energy

12 economy have an aggressive bio-energy component.

13 We are however asking that no sector have bio-

14 energy omission, preclusion or prohibition. We

15 are going to need every renewable energy resource

16 if we intend to meet ambitious greenhouse gas

17 targets and bio-energy is a valuable tool in that

18 arsenal.

19 Working forests are not only sustainably

20 managed to provide steady supply of renewable

21 material and energy, but also provide economic

22 opportunity and jobs, particularly in rural New

23 York. Fifteen million acres of working forests in

24 New York are privately owned, by individuals and

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2 families, small and large businesses and everyday

3 Americans who invest in working forests as part

4 of their retirement portfolios. Over 700,000

5 private forest landowners in rural New York

6 depend on a nearby forest product manufacturing

7 facility to buy their trees. Healthy markets for

8 wood help landowners afford the considerable

9 investments necessary to keep their forest

10 healthy and thriving.

11 While our private working forests are

12 sequestering and storing millions of tons of

13 carbon every year, our most recent data shows

14 they also support 100,000 jobs, $10 billion worth

15 of products produced and over $250 million in

16 revenue annually to forest landowners. The

17 average income per worker in our sector is over

18 $61,000 and wood product manufacturing in New

19 York ranks sixth in total manufacturing goods and

20 seventh in total manufacturing value.

21 A central question we must consider is

22 this, how do we harness the environmental

23 benefits of work working forests and the wood

24 products they produce without placing the

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2 economic burden on the rural communities that

3 depend on them? This is not a question of just

4 transition, but one of just retention and growth.

5 Failure to ensure that these forest-based jobs is

6 not only bad climate policy but it is policy

7 which results in greater disadvantaged

8 individuals in rural upstate communities.

9 Every day our lives and our environment

10 are improved by our forest and the products they

11 produce. So then how did working forests and our

12 wood products end up on the wrong side of

13 Albany’s climate policy as drafted in the Climate

14 and Community Protection Act? The CCPA would

15 manipulate the economy to strip private forest

16 land of its economic value, making a parking lot,

17 a wind farm, a solar farm more valuable land use

18 than a working forest.

19 Land conversion is the biggest single

20 threat to our forests and that happens when we

21 value development, some renewable energy or

22 parking lot more than we value our forests. If we

23 want forests that stay, we need forests that pay.

24 Here’s what the IPC says when it comes to the

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2 role of working forests. In the long-term, a

3 sustainable forest management strategy aimed at

4 maintaining or increasing forest carbon stocks

5 while producing an annual sustained yield of

6 timber, fiber or energy from the forest will

7 generate the largest sustained mitigation

8 benefit.

9 Modern sustainable forestry in New York

10 is one of the natural resources solutions the

11 IPCC encourages. Coming out of the gate on the

12 other side of the IPCC is a huge misstep that

13 could put New York in the forefront of

14 irresponsible climate policies, and dooming New

15 York’s rural forest-based economies to further

16 disadvantaged status.

17 When the CCPA kills what’s left of

18 sustainable wood products manufacturing and

19 forestry business in New York, who will pay to

20 manage the forests and keep them healthy? If we

21 don’t use renewable wood for homes and buildings,

22 kitchen tables and flooring, renewable energy

23 paper and packaging, what materials will be used

24 instead? What is the cost of New York getting

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2 climate policy wrong?

3 There does not have to be a choice

4 between the environmental and economic benefits

5 when it comes to working forest and climate

6 change. When we choose sustainably sourced

7 renewable forest products, we are valuing forests

8 and preventing deforestation. When we build with

9 would wood, we store forest carbon, when we

10 wisely use bio-energy resources we displace or

11 eliminate fossil fuels.

12 When policy makers support market-based

13 approaches that support environmental and

14 economic benefits of working forests, they are

15 helping to improve both the climate and the

16 economies of the communities we live in. What if

17 we realized that environmental sustainability

18 without economic sustainability isn’t sustainable

19 at all? Let’s be just and show that we do. Thank

20 you.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

22 MR. SUAREZ: Good afternoon, my name is

23 Darren Suarez, I’m with the Business Council of

24 the State of New York. And thank you very much

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2 for having us here today. It is unequivocally

3 clear that the future risks from climate change

4 will be impacted by the decisions made today. The

5 world has neither the time nor the luxury of time

6 or resources to get this wrong. We need to accept

7 that climate change occurs on a global scale, and

8 if measures proposed in New York result in

9 increased emissions elsewhere in the world, we

10 have done nothing to solve the problem.

11 We believe New York should adopt

12 legislation to address climate change. Central to

13 the legislation should be the development of a

14 plan that includes input from all stakeholders to

15 ensure the plan is effective, affordable,

16 predictable, inclusive and repeatable.

17 Regarding workforce, the legislation

18 should start with a commitment to prevent the

19 leakage of greenhouse gas emissions and jobs

20 associated with energy intensive trade exposed

21 facilities. These include, but are not limited to

22 glass, steel, cement, auto, metal casings, food,

23 paper, aluminum, plastics, ceramics and chemicals

24 to other states or countries. No one can expect

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2 to retain or replace the over 40,000 high paying

3 jobs in New York’s IAT facilities, never mind all

4 the jobs that support the IAT facilities. Losing

5 these jobs would be devastating. Thousands of

6 families would be subject to unimaginable

7 turmoil, small communities around the State of

8 New York would be crushed, and for what? The

9 legislation would cause production to leave New

10 York and consumption based greenhouse gas

11 emissions will substantially increase. If the

12 average Upstate New York manufacturing facility

13 was located in China, its emissions would be six

14 times higher. If New York commits to assisting

15 EIT facilities, we can retain good jobs while

16 also reducing emissions.

17 How many new EIOTs are in New York and

18 how many people do they employ you may be asking

19 yourself. Based upon the 2018 data from the

20 Bureau of Labor Statistics, New York has over a

21 thousand different EITs that directly employ over

22 20,000 people and pay over $2.6 billion in wages.

23 On average, these workers are making more than

24 70,000 per year and are often some of the highest

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2 paid workers in their county. Attachment A is a

3 chart that is based upon the data from the Bureau

4 of Labor Statistics, which proves this out. The

5 chart details the 2018 employment statistics for

6 New York’s EITs. We identified those EITs using

7 the same criteria for the Waxman-Markey Bill, the

8 HR-2454 which has been the standard and those

9 also include the same codes and industries that

10 are in Oregon and also Washington.

11 If New York is interested in retaining

12 the EIT workforce of over 40,000 people, the

13 legislation must not increase energy costs or

14 operation costs and create uncertainty,

15 compromising the global competitiveness of EIT

16 facilities. If rising compliance costs cause, or

17 the uncertainty regarding those costs, cause New

18 York manufacturers to relocate operations to

19 other countries with less stringent standards or

20 if imports are less expensive because of weaker

21 standards in their country of manufacture, it

22 will impact employment.

23 EITs need a transition period to bridge

24 towards a lower carbon economy. That transition

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2 is meant to support energy intensive trade

3 exposed industries into a global level playing

4 field is established that enables fair

5 competition. And in particular the legislation

6 should ensure that EITs have a seat at the table.

7 Any council created with the development of

8 greenhouse gas reduction should include a

9 representative of the business community.

10 Recognizing the need for prevention of

11 unintended consequences arising from greenhouse

12 gas reduction framework should include the

13 leakage of emissions and jobs by providing

14 statutory exemptions from direct carbon

15 reductions requirements, direct carbon emission

16 taxes, indirect payment taxes or assessments

17 based on the consumption of fuel electricity.

18 Compensating measures such as free allowances,

19 delayed program entry, program exceptions for EIT

20 industries have been provided for in numerous

21 nations and states including Washington, Oregon,

22 and Germany.

23 Developing a marginal abatement cost

24 curve which plots out the marginal costs of

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2 achieving the cumulative level of emissions

3 abatement in order from the lowest to the highest

4 technology or the measures for different regions

5 of the state is also imperative. Carbon leakage

6 is something we’ve discussed often, but we put

7 some numbers around it for you today. To properly

8 calculate the potential carbon leakage from the

9 loss of New York’s EITs would take significant

10 time and study because of the very different

11 carbon intensities of different individual forms

12 of manufacturing and the size of the facilities.

13 Purely to help illustrate the magnitude

14 of the carbon leakage we have calculated the

15 increase of emissions resulting from the

16 relocation of the EIT productions. Using the

17 current EIA data regarding greenhouse gases per

18 kilowatt hour, we multiplied the EIAs New York

19 monthly average for an industrial facility, then

20 determine the metric tons per year of greenhouse

21 gas emitted from industrial facility. It is

22 fairly easy to see in the chart contained, that

23 with just associated electricity consumption are

24 four times greater than the facilities have

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2 located elsewhere in the United States. And, it

3 is six times higher if located in China and eight

4 times higher if located in South Africa.

5 In conclusion, the decisions we make

6 today are critical ensuring the safe and

7 sustainable world for everyone. We need to have a

8 real and honest discussion focused on creating an

9 ecosystem that encourages deployment of

10 technologies that mitigates greenhouse gas

11 emissions. The Business Council strongly supports

12 the adoption of measures that commit to

13 preventing the leakage of greenhouse gas

14 emissions, and jobs associated with EIT

15 facilities.

16 No one can expect to retain or replace

17 over 40,000 high-paying jobs, never mind all the

18 jobs that support the EIT facilities. No one can

19 expect the state will easily generate $2.6

20 billion in wages or the more than $70,000 per

21 year in average wages in small communities around

22 the state. To make matters worse, production will

23 leaves New York and consumption greenhouse gas

24 emissions will substantially increase.

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2 If the average Upstate manufacturing

3 facility was located in China, it would be six

4 times the higher emissions. Climate change

5 present as challenge that cannot be solved, but

6 as I testified today we can do better or worse in

7 managing it and the Business Council is a partner

8 with all New Yorkers who aspire to address it.

9 Thank you.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you,

11 we’ve been joined by Assemblyman Harvey Epstein.

12 Welcome. Questions from the panel? I have a

13 couple of questions. One of the issues that of

14 course is creating controversy today is the

15 question of carbon offsets. I just wonder what

16 your thoughts are on carbon offsets against the

17 backdrop of what we’ve already heard today, that

18 the experience in California was celebrated

19 wrongly as being substantially more productive

20 than it actually quantified -- what’s quantified

21 and demonstrated to be.

22 MR. BARTOW: I’ll take a start at that.

23 MR. SUAREZ: Go ahead.

24 MR. BARTOW: First, your reference to

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2 the MIT study in California, where there may be

3 as much as a one-third overshoot of some of the

4 carbon offsets that were done in their forest.

5 That’s one study. We are robustly behind

6 supporting the need for good carbon accounting

7 that’s on there. The carbon accounting, the

8 methodologies that we put towards this are going

9 to be critical, not just in the wood and forest

10 industry products here, but across the renewable

11 energy cycle.

12 The same MIT study, back at

13 [unintelligible] [03:17:51] University, had did a

14 study in 2015 that also called for the robust

15 increase of biomass energy and carbon capture and

16 storage. So I think taking any one study is a

17 little risky whenever we do it. It’s the

18 collective, I think scientific agreement and

19 consensus we can get. And we were encouraged this

20 year when you included in the EPF $500,000 to

21 start the base carbon accounting on forests that

22 we need in New York. And that’s going to be

23 critical. I mean if we’re going to make a case

24 that we can be part of the climate solution, the

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2 forest products industry has to be part of that

3 methodology and the accounting and be very

4 forthright and transparent when we do it.

5 We think that we can meet the scientific

6 test. I’ll be curious to see what the further

7 scientific community says about the California

8 work, but that is going to be critical. It’s

9 critical with solar, it’s critical with wind,

10 it’s critical with any resource that we do. So we

11 welcome that kind of scientific scrutiny. We’ll

12 see where that ends up landing.

13 MR. SUAREZ: And to address this issue,

14 I don’t think it, very clearly, we don’t think

15 there’s a pathway for us to get to zero emissions

16 from all sources. So we know that six percent of

17 emissions actually are processed emissions.

18 They’re associated with actually production of

19 items. And we can’t get without actually -- and

20 there’s no technology in many of those industries

21 to sort of get there without seeing the

22 industries either move outside of here or just

23 close down entirely.

24 So, that doesn’t really do us any good.

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2 And so to the question of, should offsets be

3 included in that discussion, yes, of course.

4 There’s just certain aspects of our economy we’re

5 not going to be able to address. And we need

6 basically outsets and offsets might be one.

7 Now, the question about how the validity

8 of those and the validity of the individuals in

9 California, I can’t speak to the individual

10 occurrences of that. But I can be assured in the

11 New York puts its mind to and puts together a

12 good plan, we can actually have offsets that

13 work. Offsets make sense. Or we’re trying to

14 address something that’s a global emission. We’re

15 not -- this is a global challenge.

16 MR. BARTOW: I think the other thing

17 with the offset equation is where you set your

18 priorities and actually the allocation of where

19 they can go. I don’t think anyone wants to see

20 the idea of the forests in upstate New York being

21 used to offset further dirty emissions down in

22 Downstate. That doesn’t have to be the net sum

23 end of the game there. I mean you could start to

24 allocate and say, for example, agriculture is

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2 going to need a huge amount of offsets. We would

3 start saying we want our forests first to go to

4 our agriculture offsets. We then want it to go to

5 some transportation offsets. It doesn’t have to

6 be that quid pro quo, the concept of planting

7 trees, I would just answer that in saying, it’s

8 rare in upstate New York that we plant trees. We

9 have robust natural regeneration from good

10 silviculture practices, so it’s not that. I mean

11 aforestation is big, further growing our forest

12 but New York’s forest is bigger than it has ever

13 been since colonial times. The thing we’ve got to

14 do is start finding ways to keep the forest we

15 have as forest and doing the job it does both

16 economically and environmentally.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

18 for that answer. Your statement said when the

19 Climate and Community Protection Act kills what’s

20 left of sustainable wood products manufacturing

21 and forestry business in New York, who will pay

22 to manage our forests? You asked a question. I’m

23 not real clear on why you would state that you

24 see that as an inevitability. If the act is

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2 passed that it’s going to kill sustainable --

3 MR. BARTOW: Wood product manufacturing.

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- product

5 manufacturing?

6 MR. BARTOW: And the reason we say that

7 is it takes energy to, a lot of energy to, we are

8 a very energy intensive trade exposed sector of

9 the economy. We talked about it in pulp and

10 paper, we do it in our sawmill. We also do that

11 and have done it for many decades, using our

12 residual biomass to create heat for kiln drying

13 lumber or to create heat and power for running

14 mills such as our paper mills. International

15 Paper, in Ticonderoga, can run 100 percent of

16 heat and energy demands, power demands off of

17 burning its residual biomass. The CCPA, by 2050

18 will say you can’t do that, by 2030, you have to

19 cut that in half.

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: That’s not

21 what the bill says. The bill sets broad goals and

22 sets in place the series of stakeholders to help

23 us navigate toward those goals.

24 MR. BARTOW: Okay.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: It doesn’t

3 specifically address your industry. It certainly

4 has no prejudice against sustainable practices at

5 all. But instead, would logically lead toward

6 sustainable practices that maybe need to be some

7 modifications in certain of the industries. But

8 we certainly are not looking to cause those

9 industries to leave New York.

10 MR. BARTOW: So are you saying the CCPA

11 would continue to allow us to burn biomass?

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I didn’t

13 say it would specifically address --

14 MR. BARTOW: Okay.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- that,

16 although I find curious that you suggest that

17 your biomass being incinerated or burned is going

18 to clean the air, which is part of your

19 statement. So I find that a little odd, but let’s

20 don’t get into weeds. The big picture is here is

21 that, we’re all in this together.

22 MR. BARTOW: I agree.

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: And if you

24 accept, and I hope do you at this point. Mr.

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2 Suarez, a couple of years ago, when we first put

3 this bill out, said that it would lead to the end

4 of civilization.

5 MR. SUAREZ: I still believe that after

6 it’s been adopted, yeah, in New York.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: So I don’t

8 --

9 MR. SUAREZ: As drafted, yes.

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- I don’t

11 accept that. But --

12 MR. SUAREZ: I know you don’t.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- but --

14 MR. SUAREZ: And I know you don’t also

15 understand that it will end manufacturing, but it

16 will. And I understand, assemblyman that we have

17 a different opinion on this. But, ultimately it’s

18 sort of like saying to me, like, hey, Darren, we

19 want you to go out there and learn how, to by X

20 number of day, we want you to learn how to dunk a

21 basketball. Now, you might be an excellent

22 teacher in terms how to teach me how to dunk a

23 basketball. But as much as I get out there and

24 try to do it, it’s just not going to happen. And

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2 knowing that it’s not going to happen, and

3 knowing that I have a certain date by which I

4 have to perform, at some point in time, if I’m

5 staying at, let’s say, your residence, and you

6 say to stay here I have to continue to be able to

7 dunk a basketball, I know that I can’t, I’m going

8 to move away. And that’s what’s going to happen.

9 So, there is -- you can talk about what could be

10 attempted, but right now, there’s no pathway to

11 get there.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: The

13 problem with climate change is there is no other

14 planet to move to. So --

15 MR. SUAREZ: I get it, but what you’re

16 going to do is you’re going to --

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- there’s

18 an [unintelligible] [03:25:17].

19 MR. SUAREZ: Remove your emissions

20 elsewhere. You’re actually going to undermine

21 everything you want to do. [applause]

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: If I could

23 just --

24 MR. SUAREZ: Assemblyman, I don’t think

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2 -- we’re, see the interesting part is we don’t

3 focus on the things we should be, which is all

4 these things, there’s many of these matters which

5 you and I agree on, and there’s many things that

6 we sort of, we could agree to take steps to move

7 in the same direction. Walter Hang certainly

8 mentioned many of the things in terms of making

9 additional investments in energy efficiency that

10 I think we could certainly do and we’d see that

11 there’s benefit together. But what you put

12 together is a path that has a certain end, and in

13 that end, it means no manufacturing.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I

15 disagree.

16 MR. SUAREZ: I know.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT:

18 Respectfully, but that’s not something that we’re

19 going to settle today. I would like to suggest to

20 you that we’re -- I started to say this before

21 you -- your basketball analogy is refreshing. I

22 would like to show you how to dunk a basketball

23 sometime.

24 MR. SUAREZ: I would love to dunk one.

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2 [laughter]

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: But, the

4 hope I have is that we can work together. I hope

5 you are not convinced entirely that we need to be

6 adversarial. I confess that I live in a house, it

7 has gas heat. I drive a vehicle at the moment.

8 I’m going to have to make some adjustments going

9 forward. I’d like to -- my house was built in

10 about 1860. It needs a little work in terms of

11 energy efficiency. We’re going to turn to the

12 entrepreneurs and the business people of this

13 state, who have done so much for this state. I

14 salute you for the jobs you have created, the

15 innovation that you have brought to the

16 prosperity and quality of life of our state. And

17 we don’t want to be adversarial with you, because

18 you’re clearly going to be an important part of

19 working solutions out there together.

20 The premise we begin with today though

21 is that we’re going to have to make changes in

22 how we go forward. And, I thank you for --

23 MR. BARTOW: If I just respond, if I

24 could pull this back to my sector a little.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Let me

3 just finish. I want to thank you for offering

4 your thoughts and your comments today and I hope

5 we can continue to do that going forward. We have

6 a lot of problem solving to do and not all of it,

7 as Mr. Hang clearly indicated and others, not all

8 of it requires high-tech, it just requires a lot

9 of interaction, and thought sharing and

10 translating that into goals and meaningful

11 practice in terms of going forward in order to

12 reduce the impact of CO2 and CH4 on our

13 environment. I’m sorry. You were starting to say?

14 MR. BARTOW: I just wanted to come back

15 to our sector.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Surely.

17 MR. BARTOW: And what my comment was in

18 there about driving it out is twofold. One,

19 recognizing the role that bio-energy in our

20 forest can bring to table on the energy side of

21 it, but the other side is to also recognize that

22 in the wood products manufacturing, the role that

23 those markets have in helping to keep our forests

24 forest. With 75 percent of our forest privately

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2 owned, we’re never going to buy it all, and those

3 markets -- in fact, the lack of markets in

4 California has led to a lot of the problems that

5 they have right now. We happen to have somewhat

6 good forest markets. They’ve been evolving over

7 time. What our goal should be is recognizing that

8 those are important, particularly when it comes

9 to the privately-owned forest lands and how do we

10 keep them and not drive them out.

11 And maybe it’s signaling. If the CCPA is

12 that adaptive, it isn’t that clear to our members

13 and they’re already saying, what are they saying,

14 I could move my production, my sawmill, my paper

15 mill, my production facility to Pennsylvania, to

16 Georgia and not skip a heartbeat, and that would

17 do nothing but impact 700,000 forest land owners.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Well, if

19 you go to the south, you’re not going to have the

20 hardwoods that we have in north.

21 MR. BARTOW: That is quite true.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: And so

23 there are really good reasons to support your

24 industry.

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2 MR. BARTOW: That’s correct.

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: For

4 furniture and your testimony outlines many uses

5 that are not going to in any way be productive to

6 try to replace those uses. So --

7 MR. BARTOW: We did offer some

8 amendments specifically a simple two page

9 [unintelligible] [03:30:27].

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: We will

11 look at those.

12 MR. BARTOW: I’d love you to look.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: But I

14 wanted to be very clear. Passing this bill is not

15 lethal to the productivity of business in the

16 state or of any particular business, including

17 wood products at all. It simply sets the

18 framework for problem solving and acknowledges

19 that we have a huge problem.

20 MR. BARTOW: We don’t disagree.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

22 And we need to work together is what I’m saying.

23 And one of the premises of the bill is that the

24 major stakeholders need to be at the table, even

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2 those that are showing a certain amount of

3 skepticism at this moment. Should we pass this

4 and it becomes law, I just want to assure you

5 that we would love to work with you and that this

6 bill in specific sets goals, establishes goals

7 that are deemed by scientists to be inevitably

8 appropriate or, that we will face increasingly

9 difficult consequences.

10 It isn’t helpful when members of the

11 business community, hired scientists in the 1970s

12 and ‘80s to analyze what the impact of CO2 would

13 be on the atmosphere and then suppressed it. I’m

14 talking about Exxon Mobile and the story that

15 appeared yesterday. And then suppressed that

16 information and then provided disinformation. So

17 that sullies the business community’s profile.

18 I’m not suggesting at all that that is something

19 that you have done. But I am saying that we’ve

20 got a legacy of some perception difficulties to

21 overcome. And so I hope that we continue to work

22 on getting past the perception difficulties and

23 get into real problem solving. That’s the goal of

24 the CCPA.

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2 MR. SUAREZ: And I think one of the

3 major steps you could do right away, immediately

4 is to amend the CCPA to include and make it

5 expressly clear that businesses will be included

6 and their voice will be included in the

7 discussion, particularly, the EITE industries.

8 Right now, there’s nothing -- there’s basically

9 one individual that potentially could be a

10 business person that’s sort of expressly in the

11 legislation. It just, when companies look at

12 that, and they look at what the challenges are

13 ahead, and too, quite honestly, as has been

14 indicated so far, sort of how New York’s climate

15 policies have come to bear, and Walter Hang sort

16 of spoke directly to this, which is it’s been

17 heavily dependent upon a subsidization of

18 renewable, which quite honestly, has borne and

19 been bared by those that pay energy prices at a

20 greater level, and EIT customers are those,

21 particularly those that get a volume metric

22 assessment. So the really, New York’s history in

23 this area, unfortunately is not great. And

24 unfortunately you do adopt a little bit of it,

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2 but we’d be glad to work with you --

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I

4 appreciate that.

5 MR. SUAREZ: -- in terms of the

6 development of working towards the solution.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: That’s

8 very meaningful. Thank you, Mr. Suarez.

9 MR. SUAREZ: Yeah.

10 MR. BARTOW: And I would just offer one

11 other potential change.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Yes, sir.

13 MR. BARTOW: The renewable energy

14 definition you include in the CCPA does not

15 include our wood products and biomass in

16 particular as a renewable energy resource. And

17 while we could probably argue all day long about

18 what’s its role in any carbon, in any energy

19 cycle, there’s no denying that it’s a renewable

20 energy resource.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Actually,

22 we could argue about that. [laughter]

23 MR. BARTOW: I would love to sit down

24 and have that conversation.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: But let’s

3 don’t do that today. But I think the underlying

4 thrust of what you’re saying is that there are

5 some technical as well as practically realities

6 that will also confine our future realities. And

7 I accept that. And it leads us toward a need to

8 put our best thoughts together and see if we can

9 accomplish something. And we’ll certainly take a

10 look at your recommendations. And I thank you

11 again.

12 MR. BARTOW: We would love to be at the

13 table.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I know

15 that I’m taking too much time here. And I have

16 colleagues who would also like to ask you some

17 questions. Let me start with Mr. Epstein.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: I think

19 Barbara.

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Or

21 Barbara.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Okay. I just

23 wanted to actually make a very quick maybe, I

24 don’t know whether it’s a discussion Darren, or

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2 just a comment. I went back to your list of your

3 criteria that should be in the legislation. You

4 said affordable. And I get very worried when I

5 see the word affordable because I have the

6 feeling it’s not going to be too long before

7 we’re spending almost every dollar we have to

8 either clean up after a disaster or to try bring

9 down greenhouse gases.

10 MR. SUAREZ: Right.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: This is getting

12 to be an extremely expensive problem for our

13 country, for our state, already. And every year

14 that we delay, it’s going to become more and more

15 expensive. So the more quickly we act now it

16 seems to me, the more boldly we act now, the more

17 affordable it’s going to be to deal with this

18 problem. So I’m not sure, when you say

19 affordable, you know --

20 MR. SUAREZ: What I mean, affordable --

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: We have a $170

22 billion state budget. One percent of that would

23 be $17 billion a year. Should we spend one

24 percent of the state budget or one percent of the

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2 wealth of our state, which is $1 trillion? We

3 could spend $10 billion or 20, I don’t know what

4 the math is. But we could, you know, what’s

5 affordable?

6 MR. SUAREZ: I think Assemblywoman

7 Lifton, actually well I think affordable is

8 always in the eye of the individual, right. And

9 so I think it’s really important to actually look

10 at the individual. So in many cases, actually

11 there’s a significant portion of our population

12 right now that’s in a state of energy insecurity.

13 They don’t have enough money to basically meet

14 the demands of their own individual bills. So we

15 have to be conscious of that.

16 And I think that sort of has to be

17 factored into the decision making process to

18 ensure that we’re particularly reaching out to

19 the environmental justice community, those that

20 are individuals underserved, to make sure we have

21 programs to meet and match their needs. The other

22 is --

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: And of course,

24 we’re talking about subsidizing that. We’re

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2 talking about incentives, right?

3 MR. SUAREZ: Yes. As we should be, and

4 simultaneously, on sort of the flip side of that

5 coin is also the facility that sort of sits out

6 there that produces a product that gets competed

7 on a world or global scale, that that individual

8 facility in New York State has to stay

9 economical. Otherwise, if it’s not truly

10 economical, we start to see some issues. I’m not

11 saying we ignore them, but I’m saying that we

12 have to look at the affordability of them to meet

13 those issues.

14 But simultaneously, as Walter had

15 indicated, there is a significant amount of money

16 that basically the state is collecting right now.

17 And they’re collecting it in a way which doesn’t

18 reflect actually the ability for an individual to

19 pay. It is an arbitrary sort of way of assessing

20 it. Simultaneously, we’re also allowing

21 individual residential customers to use basically

22 electricity at what’s called peak demand for the

23 same price they use it at off peak hours. That in

24 itself is a subsidization for individuals, in a

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2 way that really doesn’t make sense and increases

3 emissions.

4 So there are ways to basically ensure

5 that those people that have, let’s say, the

6 larger home, that they are coming to a home

7 wherever they are and they’re turning on every

8 light in the house including their multiple TVs

9 and they’re charging up whatever. That person

10 should actually pay a greater portion of their

11 paycheck towards their electricity and their

12 costs than other individuals. They have the

13 ability to do it. Let’s look at how we’re

14 assessing, and that’s what I’m saying. So I’m not

15 saying -- let’s be very smart about this. And I

16 think when we go, we’re intelligent about it, we

17 can sort of, we can actually identify areas which

18 we can increase the cost for some to help to

19 basically, direct them towards other things that

20 are basically less effective.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Thank you.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Mr.

23 Epstein.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: And thank you,

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2 Chair, for giving me the opportunity to speak. I

3 really do appreciate your testimony, and I’m just

4 -- it sounds like we all agree on this

5 proposition that we need to act and we need to

6 act now. Is that correct?

7 MR. SUAREZ: I would agree.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: So, there’s no

9 disagreement on that, right?

10 MR. SUAREZ: Right.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: And so, there

12 is no disagreement that everyone has to take

13 individual responsibility for acting, right?

14 Businesses, individuals like ourselves, like the

15 chair has said, right. And that, so if we’re all

16 taking personal responsibility, it’s as a

17 community, us as individuals, and as the

18 legislature and you, as representing industry, so

19 we’re all taking that level of responsibility.

20 And so you’re saying though that the CCPA as it

21 stands doesn’t create the framework, that’s what

22 you’re claiming, it doesn’t create the framework

23 to act, is that what you think?

24 MR. SUAREZ: No, it doesn’t create

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2 basically -- there’s basically the development of

3 a roadmap or plan for emissions reductions, and

4 there isn’t a specific basically in the

5 development of that individual plan, there

6 aren’t, there isn’t an adequate representation

7 from those industries that are trade exposed

8 industries in the development of that plan.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: So the plan in

10 and of itself and the framework that we’re

11 creating isn’t the problem, it’s you want to

12 ensure that you have a larger voice in that

13 conversation?

14 MR. SUAREZ: We want to have a voice.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: Well, it

16 sounds like --

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I mean --

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: You’ve heard

19 from the chair. He’s like, and he’s been a real

20 leader on this.

21 MR. SUAREZ: Right. Yeah.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: And we have

23 to, I have a lot of due respect for the assembly

24 member and what his leadership in really moving

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2 this forward. He’s already said that I want to

3 work with you. So it sounds like he’s willing to

4 have you have a, in some ways, a voice maybe in

5 some ways an outsource voice in this

6 conversation. So that’s something that you want

7 to, do right?

8 MR. SUAREZ: Right.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: So it sounds

10 like the disagreements are somewhat, and we don’t

11 disagree we need to act. We don’t disagree we all

12 need to respond. We don’t disagree that we need

13 plan. It seems like we’re only disagreeing on how

14 to ensure that that plan happens that we’re all

15 stakeholders and we’re all at the table. Is that

16 it?

17 MR. BARTOW: I think there’s also some

18 nuances of how do we get there? I mean there’s

19 not a clear articulation that there could be a

20 pathway of net carbon, zero carbon neutrality.

21 You discussed what are the needs for offsets. I

22 think all those tools are going to have to start

23 to come into play as we move forward here. And

24 the act as written now, I mean again, this is a

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2 bill that was written, I think the language

3 really hasn’t changed in three years, doesn’t at

4 least even spell those opportunities out. When

5 our members read it, they get very, very nervous

6 and they are multistate, multination investors

7 and saying --

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: Look, can I

9 say --

10 MR. BARTOW: -- I need a better signal.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: -- we talked

12 about individual responsibility and

13 accountability and that includes you.

14 MR. BARTOW: Yeah.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN: Do you just

16 say to your members and your membership, hey, I

17 know you have some trepidations here and some

18 concerns, but we’ve been talking to the chair,

19 we’ve been talking to the Assembly members. We

20 all know we have to row together here, so that

21 fear is something that we shouldn’t slow this

22 process down, because we need to act and we need

23 to act together. So you as our membership need to

24 up, be rowing with us as we move forward. And I

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2 think that’s the message we want you to walk away

3 with, knowing this has to happen, this has to

4 happen for us, our children and our grand

5 children.

6 MR. BARTOW: I totally agree. And that

7 is a conversation we’ve been having for a couple

8 of years. We’ve offered what we think are some

9 reasonable adjustments. And we’d like to see

10 that. We have not had the opportunity to have a

11 direct dialogue with all of you and the chairman

12 like we have today, up until now.

13 MR. SUAREZ: There are also, I mean

14 there are a few other technical matters in terms

15 of the development of the legislation that would

16 certainly give us concern in terms of how it’s

17 put together, so those would obviously be issues

18 you’d to address. But I think too is also the

19 push to still go to absolute zero instead of a

20 carbon neutral approach is really concerning.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: If we

22 don’t set goals that are equal to the challenge,

23 then we will surely fail. The challenge at this

24 point is that the global ocean is overheated,

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2 that’s 71 percent of the surface of the earth.

3 That for coastal communities such as the one that

4 I represent, that we’re facing inundation. We’re

5 facing drowning the barrier island. That is our

6 number tourist attraction and the core of our

7 economy. In-place drowning of Jones Beach is a

8 real possibility. We’ve already had an overheated

9 ocean generating storms that have drowned people

10 in their apartments within a few blocks of where

11 we sit.

12 This isn’t imagination from a comic

13 book. This is reality and we’re only trying to

14 set goals that give us a chance to pass to our

15 children some sense of optimism. I am with you

16 when you say please don’t forget the industries

17 that are the lifeblood of the economy of this

18 state. I’m not going argue with that goal at all.

19 In fact, setting the goals of the CCPA is not

20 contradicting the need for business in New York.

21 We recognize that. And the vagueness is

22 unsettling I’m sure, but what the real genius I

23 think of those who helped us draft this is that

24 it’s so inclusive. It includes a very broad array

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2 of stakeholders, certainly that should include --

3 MR. BARTOW: In three years it has not

4 been amended to include us. I mean it’s --

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Well,

6 we’re now in that part of the process where with

7 four weeks left in the session, we’re working

8 with partners in the Senate who are very

9 seriously looking at these same issues. And I

10 think the governor sees that this is a moment of

11 truth as well. It comes at a time when we’re

12 receiving input from the science community that

13 is terrifying. So there is a moment that we’re at

14 now and it brings us together.

15 MR. SUAREZ: And we agree.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: My plea to

17 you is believe in the goal, that you are a part

18 of inevitably, and hopefully a part of the

19 solution as well. And I really would like to see

20 you not only participate today, and thank you

21 again for being here, but to be participating

22 going forward as well. We’re going to take

23 suggestions very seriously.

24 MR. BARTOW: Thank you.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Any other

3 questions? Thank you very much.

4 MR. SUAREZ: Thank you.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

6 [applause] The next panel, Miles Farmer, senior

7 attorney at the Natural Resources Defense

8 Council, Julie Tighe, president, New York League

9 of Conservation Voters, Jessica Ottney Mahar, New

10 York Policy Director of The Nature Conservancy

11 and Erin McGrath, policy manager of Audubon New

12 York. Welcome. So why don’t we start with the way

13 that I read them off. Miles farmer, from the New

14 York Resources Defense Council, and then Julie

15 and then Jessica and then Erin. Please.

16 MR. MILES FARMER, SENIOR ATTORNEY,

17 NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL: Well, thank

18 you for the opportunity to present testimony on

19 this critical issue and I truly appreciate all

20 the hard work that you’re putting into this, and

21 rising to the scale of this incredible problem

22 that we face and making sure that we address

23 these issues in a sensible way. NRDC is extremely

24 encouraged to see the legislature stepping up

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2 with climate solutions that rise to the scale of

3 the challenge. The state has an unprecedented

4 opportunity to build its clean energy economy,

5 and create thousands of new jobs while at the

6 same time helping to protect New Yorkers from the

7 catastrophic effects of climate change and

8 harmful pollutants.

9 We’re also encouraged to see many areas

10 of commonalty between the Climate and Community

11 Protection Act and the Climate Leadership Act and

12 we urge you to work together to pass a consensus

13 bill. Opportunities like this don’t come around

14 very often, and history is littered with mounds

15 of we almost got there moments that fell to the

16 cutting room floor. New York cannot afford for

17 climate legislation this session to be one more

18 of those moments, and to avoid that outcome, we

19 urge you to act quickly to forge agreement.

20 NRDC strongly supports the CCPA’s goals

21 to set economy wide greenhouse gas emissions

22 limits for New York, to establish an inclusive

23 state climate planning process that gives

24 environmental justice and labor a direct input

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2 into decision making and to substantially

3 increase funding for clean energy programs to

4 benefit disadvantaged communities.

5 The Climate Leadership Act adds to

6 discussion in several important respects, such as

7 by codifying the state’s 70 percent renewables by

8 the 2030 goal, establishing a program to achieve

9 100 percent emissions free electricity supply by

10 2040 and by situating the new climate planning

11 process within the state’s energy plan.

12 We and other stakeholders have suggested

13 additional ideas to ensure a successful climate

14 program, such as codifying the state’s ambitious

15 energy efficiency targets, and requiring all

16 relevant state agencies to regulate in a manner

17 consistent with the state’s climate plan.

18 We believe that the strongest overall

19 package will be achieved by updating the CCPA to

20 include the best elements of the CLA and external

21 suggestions. That’s also true with regard to

22 topic of today’s hearing, the use of offsets. A

23 net zero greenhouse gas emissions reduction

24 approach offers important benefits, yet

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2 supporters of a zero emissions framework have

3 raised serious and legitimate concerns. The best

4 path forward will incorporate elements of both

5 approaches.

6 As the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on

7 Climate Change and National Climate Assessment

8 Reports have recently confirmed, climate change

9 is already extracting a deadly toll and New

10 Yorkers are feeling the effects firsthand. The

11 region still has not recovered from the impact of

12 Super Storm Sandy and is facing more frequent and

13 more intense storms and coastal flooding.

14 Meanwhile, pollution from fossil fuels causes

15 serious health problems such as asthma which are

16 killing New Yorker and worsening the quality of

17 life.

18 Through ambitious action we can still

19 avert the worst consequences of climate change

20 while also ensuring that the benefits of the

21 clean energy future are realized by all

22 communities across the state. The Climate and

23 Community Protection Act sets its sites on

24 achieving those objectives.

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2 One important decision is designing a

3 comprehensive climate program is whether and how

4 to incorporate offsets or credits that allow for

5 greenhouse gas emissions reductions, resulting

6 from one action to be used as compliance

7 mechanisms for emissions produced by another. In

8 our view, the best approach is to adopt a net

9 zero GHG emissions goal, but to pair with it a

10 very strict program that allows for credits to be

11 used under only very limited circumstances,

12 includes important safeguards to protect

13 environmental justice communities, and ensures

14 that all emissions reductions achieved are real.

15 Such a program could be more

16 comprehensive, efficient, and effective in

17 setting a zero emissions goal for a more limited

18 portion of the economy as the CCPA does, while at

19 the same time being designed in a fashion that

20 ensures that dangerous pollution is not permitted

21 to continue harming communities simply because

22 emissions could be reduced more cheaply through

23 alternative means.

24 A net zero emissions approach offers

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2 several benefits. There are certain emissions

3 that are harder to curtail at this time, which

4 could be offset through the emissions reductions

5 elsewhere in the state’s economy. For certain

6 areas of the economy, eliminating emissions is

7 not currently feasible, but those emissions can

8 be offset by leveraging the power of land use,

9 agriculture, and forestry best practices to fight

10 climate change. Without accrediting our offsets

11 program, it would be difficult to provide an

12 economic incentive for leveraging these carbon

13 sink activities which have multiple benefits

14 including the preservation of restoration of

15 wildlife habitat, improvement of water quality

16 and increased control of flooding and erosion.

17 As Anthony Ingraffea, Jeanette Barth and

18 Keith Shu [phonetic] of Cornell University put it

19 in a letter to legislators, the benefits of

20 measures such as extracting biogas from

21 agricultural waste ought to be supported, which

22 requires that emissions from these sectors not be

23 ignored. A net zero program that allows for

24 crediting will allow the state to address such

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2 emissions.

3 At the same time, legitimate concerns

4 exist regarding the use of offsets. Without

5 necessary and achievable safeguards to prevent

6 such an outcome, depending on program design and

7 mechanics, the greenhouse gas emissions neutral

8 goal could potentially fail to adequately reduce

9 and could even exacerbate co-pollutant emissions

10 in certain areas of the state, including low

11 income communities and communities of color where

12 power plants are often located. Without

13 protections in place, a net zero approach could

14 open the door to such power plants purchasing

15 carbon credits instead of seeking to reduce

16 emissions or shutting down.

17 Further, some offsets programs developed

18 by other jurisdictions, such as the European

19 Union, have been poorly designed, providing

20 credit to activities that do not truly reduce

21 emissions. Here in New York, such mistakes can be

22 avoided going forward through thoughtful and

23 rigorous implementation of any such program.

24 Now this is not in my prepared remarks,

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2 but I do want to address the study regarding the

3 California offsets program, because it’s been

4 brought up by a number of different panelists.

5 It’s my understanding, based on talking to NRDC’s

6 nation leading experts on offsets that that

7 particular study, which is really kind of a short

8 policy brief, has some serious methods,

9 methodological problems. I can put you in touch

10 with the experts talk through them. The way I

11 understand it and I might mangle it at this

12 hearing so I think definitely a further

13 discussion with those offsets experts, could

14 clear any of this up, but that that policy brief

15 extrapolated from the leakage rates in other

16 programs to California without a rigorous

17 approach that actually suggested that the

18 California approach was using those offsets,

19 those leakage kind of controls that that the

20 other programs were using, and thus the rate that

21 they extrapolated out was kind of not based on a

22 rigorous analytical process.

23 That’s not to say that we can’t learn

24 from the California program. And there are

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2 definitely important lessons to draw from

3 California’s experience as there are with a lot

4 of California’s leading climate change fighting

5 strategies and lessons can be incorporated into a

6 New York program. So I think what we’re calling

7 for is an extremely strict set of conditions that

8 would provide -- New York could step up with

9 protections that go above and beyond what we’ve

10 seen anywhere.

11 Several safeguards can be built into a

12 comprehensive program designed to reach a net

13 zero greenhouse gas emissions goal. First, as a

14 leading group of academics recently explained in

15 a letter to the Assembly, Senate and Governor,

16 the power sector portion of the program can and

17 should require a ramp up to 100 percent

18 greenhouse gas emissions free sources while

19 prohibiting the use of offsets for compliance

20 with that portion of the program, including

21 prohibiting the use of offsets for stationary

22 sources in low income communities and communities

23 of color.

24 Second, carbon credits should only be

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2 considered for a category of sources when and if

3 all other means of greenhouse gas reductions from

4 those sources have been considered and deemed to

5 be technically or economically unfeasible. Third,

6 stringent and transparent criteria for a

7 greenhouse gas emissions crediting program could

8 be created through a transparent proceeding that

9 incorporates robust greenhouse gas accounting

10 analysis for any measure included as well as

11 geographic criteria that prioritize local

12 emissions reductions, especially in environmental

13 justice communities.

14 In addition, while not a substitute for

15 the above provisions for bold, economy wide

16 greenhouse gas reduction bill, New York State

17 should also explore the potential for companion

18 legislative action that explicitly assesses and

19 works to cut dangerous criteria pollutants at the

20 local level. So we think you should also act to

21 address those co-pollutants directly.

22 And, a recently enacted law in

23 California, AB-617, is currently in the

24 implementation phase and provides one approach

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2 worth considering. AB-617 requires the

3 development of a statewide strategy to reduce

4 emissions of toxic air contaminants and criteria

5 pollutants in communities effective by a high

6 cumulative exposure burden in direct consultation

7 with those communities.

8 Overall, a strict net zero emissions

9 approach can serve as one pillar of a larger plan

10 to protect New York’s communities from climate

11 change and dangerous pollution. We commend you

12 for setting an ambitious nation leading agenda to

13 address the devastating threat of climate change

14 and to prioritize justice for New York’s

15 communities. As we’ve explained in prior

16 testimony before the state senate environmental

17 conservation committee, we’re encouraged again by

18 the many commonalities and the CCPA and the

19 Climate Leadership Act that was advanced by the

20 governor during the budget process. And with

21 agreement among the state’s leaders, on the need

22 to urgently address this existential threat that

23 grows more grave every day, we urge you to come

24 together and pass a consensus bill this session.

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2 As the federal government does all it

3 can to dismantle our critical climate policies

4 and programs and other environmental protections,

5 New York must take decisive action. We thank you

6 for your leadership and look forward to working

7 with you and other stakeholders to achieve this

8 goal before the session ends in June. Thank you.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

10 very much. I have some specific questions but I’m

11 going to let everyone speak first and then we’ll

12 come back.

13 MR. FARMER: Thank you.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: But, thank

15 you for your comments. Much appreciated. Julie.

16 MS. JULIE TIGHE, PRESIDENT, NEW YORK

17 LEAGUE OF CONSERVATION VOTERS: Thank you

18 Chairman Englebright and members of the committee

19 for holding this hearing. I think this is the

20 first time I’m appearing before you in my new

21 capacity. I appreciate that opportunity and on

22 behalf of the New York League of Conservation

23 voters on the need for climate legislation.

24 In many ways, New York State is already

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2 moving ahead while Washington, D.C. ducks.

3 Through the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative,

4 New York Sun, its offshore wind commitments, the

5 U.S. Climate Alliance, in its effort to begin to

6 address emissions from the transportation sector.

7 And I agree with some folks who have

8 said before that there are some challenges

9 associated with the sighting of renewable energy,

10 which is why my organization is working very hard

11 to identify those barriers and to help

12 communities to overcome them so that we can move

13 forward and push for a clean energy future.

14 But until now, we have had no serious

15 path forward toward the statutory framework to

16 achieve all of our goals. Today, we’re in a

17 different place. Thanks to you and many who have

18 been championing the Climate and Community

19 Protection Act, which will set firm statutory

20 goals for economy wide reductions. For the first

21 time, the Senate, Assembly and Governor all have

22 a desire, and I believe the political will to

23 make New York the national leader on climate

24 change and I’m so glad to hear that you have been

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2 having discussions with your counterparts the

3 make that happen.

4 NYLCV believes that 2019 is the year we

5 must all work together to enact a bill that is

6 meaningful, achievable and sets the most

7 aggressive economy wide emissions reduction in

8 the nation and I commend you for holding this

9 hearing.

10 This is an enormous and complex

11 challenge to achieve. While NYLCV strongly

12 believe that we should strive to reduce our

13 emissions as close to zero as we can, it is not

14 physically possible to have zero anthropogenic

15 emissions. Legally, there are emissions New York

16 does not have regulatory authority over,

17 including all forms of interstate travel and

18 shipping. Practically, there’s a baseline of GHG

19 emissions associated with human civilization,

20 such as agriculture and waste that we cannot get

21 below. And there are industries, as you heard

22 before that provide significant jobs in our

23 states for which there is currently no way to

24 eliminate all emissions, such as steel recycling

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2 and aluminum manufacturing.

3 What we can strive for, and what the

4 legislation should enshrine in law, is to get our

5 emissions low enough that the remainder can be

6 offset by natural and working lands and negative

7 emissions technologies, creating value to those

8 services and working similarly to the principles

9 established in the much lauded New York City

10 Buildings Law.

11 There are several principles for carbon

12 neutrality that Miles has articulated, but I’m

13 going to restate them because I agree with him,

14 that should be enshrined in law or regulation.

15 First, carbon onsets should not be available for

16 any greenhouse gas emissions where it is

17 technically and economically feasible to

18 eliminate the emissions in question. Period.

19 Second, carbon offsets should not be permitted

20 for electricity generators in environment justice

21 communities. Third, carbon offsets should be

22 strictly regulated in a transparent manner. And I

23 appreciate and support the RGGI analogy that our

24 friend from the Union of Concerned Scientists

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2 made earlier, that can provide a very strong

3 model how we can strictly identify a program for

4 that to work.

5 And the decisions to allow offsets

6 rather than direct emissions reduction should be

7 taken carefully and frequently revisited. Direct

8 emissions reductions that are not economically or

9 technically feasible today may well be tomorrow.

10 To be very clear, we do not support allowing

11 polluting plants in the Bronx to be offset by

12 planting trees in Brazil. The CCPA wisely --

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Or

14 Rochester.

15 MS. TIGHE: What do you have against

16 Rochester?

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Nothing.

18 Elmira. Anywhere.

19 MS. TIGHE: The CCPA.

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Anywhere

21 outside of the Bronx.

22 MS. TIGHE: The CCPA wisely focuses on

23 the need for a just transition and protecting

24 communities most vulnerable to climate change and

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2 overburdened by the principle of our industrial

3 past, principles NYLCV strongly supports. To most

4 effectively meet these goals, we support

5 establishing in law, an advisory or working group

6 that provides meaningful input to any plans

7 developed to meet energy generation and economy

8 wide emissions reductions and making smart,

9 significant investments in communities at risk.

10 Over the past few years, Governor Cuomo

11 and the Public Service Commission have advanced

12 ambitious goals on renewable energy and energy

13 efficiency that dovetail with the goals of the

14 CCPA. Specifically, the CCPA should enshrine the

15 goals of 70 percent renewable energy by 2030 and

16 100 percent clean energy by 2040 into law, which

17 would be the most aggressive in the country and

18 codify the PSC’s aggressive energy efficiency

19 targets because we agree those are very important

20 and will be necessary to meet our goals, in

21 particular where we’re pushing for

22 electrification of many other sectors.

23 NYLCV strongly supports regional and

24 market based approaches to addressing these

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2 issues to make sure our economy is not only

3 protected but enhanced by efforts to address

4 climate change, which can help also to drive the

5 technological changes that we need to meet those

6 objectives. And it will result in more meaningful

7 emission reductions.

8 New York can and should lead the

9 efforts, in particular, on the Eastern Seaboard.

10 I urge the legislature to work with the governor

11 to come to an agreement on climate legislation

12 this session because, as many have noted, we do

13 not have time to wait. NYLCV stands ready to work

14 with the legislature to get nation leading

15 climate legislation done now to continue our

16 progressive legacy. Thank you for this

17 opportunity to testify.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

19 for your testimony, much appreciated. Next,

20 Jessica?

21 MS. JESSICA OTTNEY MAHAR, NY POLICY

22 DIRECTOR, THE NATURE CONSERVANCY: Thank you for

23 the opportunity, Assemblyman Englebright and all

24 the members here. I’m excited that there are so

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2 many of you. Thank you for making time. The

3 Nature Conservancy is enthusiastic about climate

4 mitigation legislation passing in New York State

5 in 2019.

6 First and foremost, thank you

7 Assemblyman Englebright, for championing this

8 issue and for continuing to call for strong

9 action from New York in leading the nation. While

10 the Trump Administration continues to ignore the

11 urgent need to address climate change, the states

12 are taking action. I’ve been excited to join

13 colleagues in discussions about our work on

14 climate change across 50 states and hear about

15 new policies being adopted in many places.

16 Washington State just passed legislation

17 that requires 100 percent clean energy, just

18 energy, by 2045. In doing so it joined New

19 Mexico, California, with similar laws and Hawaii,

20 which has a carbon neutrality bill by 2045.

21 However, I still stand by the News Day editorial

22 that was asked about earlier which called this

23 the most progressive bill in the nation because

24 it does not have any language about the equity

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2 and jobs issues that we’re talking about today.

3 So should New York become carbon neutral by 2050,

4 I will restate for News Day that I think it would

5 be the most progressive climate legislation.

6 Massachusetts could beat us but not if you guys

7 pass it on time by June. So you’re in a race, get

8 ready.

9 These are just a few examples though of

10 important policies that are being enacted across

11 the country. And we have a chance and we can’t

12 let this chance pass us by. New York’s

13 opportunity to take comprehensive climate actions

14 comes at a time it’s needed most. The United

15 Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

16 has determined that there is no time to waste if

17 we are to avoid the catastrophic impacts of

18 climate change. The IPCC’s October 2018 report

19 highlights the inadequacy of current efforts to

20 decarbonize the global economy and underscores

21 the urgent need to accelerate action across all

22 sectors of countries to reach the goals of the

23 Paris Climate Accord.

24 Earlier this month, the

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2 Intergovernmental Panel for Biodiversity and

3 Ecosystem Services, an issue near and dear to the

4 assemblyman’s heart and The Nature Conservancy’s

5 heart, released its first report which was

6 disturbing, that detailed past biodiversity laws

7 and prospect for people and nature. Governments

8 and scientists agree, we are exploiting nature

9 faster than we can renew it. The report is a

10 shocking wakeup call and clearly shows how rapid

11 deterioration of nature threatens our food,

12 water, health and worsens the impact of climate

13 change.

14 Achieving economic development goals as

15 well as climate goals will require tackling this

16 accelerating loss of biodiversity. The Nature

17 Conservancy is working with governments,

18 corporations, non-governmental organizations and

19 financial institutions in New York, across the

20 United States and globally to help bring tangible

21 solutions to the forefront of the planning and

22 investment decisions before it’s too late.

23 Here in New York, 2019, as we said, is

24 the year to pass nation leading climate policy

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2 and we have a great starting point, thanks to

3 Assemblyman Englebright and the Assembly with the

4 Community and Climate Protection Act. We also

5 have in front of us Governor Cuomo’s Climate

6 Leadership Act, which was proposed during the

7 state budget process. With proposals now in the

8 Assembly, Senate and by the executive, it’s clear

9 that there’s an appetite for action and a pathway

10 to chapter pioneering legislation on climate

11 change mitigation.

12 There are of course differences in

13 perspective and approach, which is not unusual in

14 a matter of such significance. We’re here today

15 to urge you not to let those differences define

16 the moment. Instead, we need to collectively

17 seize this moment to negotiate a nationally and

18 globally precedent setting progressive and

19 practical bill that can pass both houses and be

20 signed into law by the governor.

21 The Nature Conservancy firmly believes

22 there’s a clear path forward to an excellent

23 outcome and we support aspects of both the CCPA

24 and the CLA. We support codifying clean energy

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2 goals, including 70 percent renewable energy by

3 2030 and 100 percent emissions free by 2040,

4 codifying net zero greenhouse gas emissions

5 economy wide for New York, creating a new climate

6 planning process within the state’s energy

7 machine planning and decision making process and

8 ensuring it includes input from environmental

9 justice, labor and conservation stakeholders,

10 substantially increasing funding for clean energy

11 programs to benefit marginalized and frontline

12 communities.

13 One of the purposes of today’s hearing

14 is what if any purpose carbon offsets should play

15 in crafting a policy to address climate change.

16 As stated, The Nature Conservancy supports an

17 economy wide goal of net zero emissions for New

18 York. We support the use of a system that allows

19 offsets in a very limited circumstance with

20 strict safeguards and accounting. The approach

21 needs to be ruthlessly realistic. It recognizes

22 that we need an audacious and ambitious goal and

23 also that we can only achieve that goal if we are

24 both progressive and practical.

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2 Along with partners some of which are

3 here, we circulated a memo that I attached to my

4 testimony that you have before you, regarding the

5 creation of an economy wide net zero emissions

6 program with important limitations. I’m not going

7 to go through those, because they’re on the memo

8 you have in front of you and they’ve been

9 discussed already.

10 But there’s a number of benefits here

11 including the ability to capture emissions that

12 can’t be captured yet, to leverage land use

13 agriculture, forestry and conservation to combat

14 climate change, to create additional valuable

15 benefits including water quality and climate

16 adaptation. And notably some of the issues are

17 contemplated in the Paris Climate Accord.

18 Thank you for the opportunity to testify

19 before you on this important issue. Through your

20 important leadership and your partnership with

21 the Senate including Senator Kaminsky and

22 Governor Cuomo and all of the stakeholders, we

23 believe that a comprehensive and effective

24 agreement can be reached before the 2019

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2 legislative session ends. And I’m also happy to

3 take questions later including about the

4 California issue that was raised earlier. Thank

5 you.

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

7 very much. Erin.

8 MS. ERIN MCGRATH, POLICY MANAGER,

9 AUDUBON NY: All right. Thank you, Chairman

10 Englebright and distinguished members of the New

11 York State Assembly. I’m really pleased to be

12 testifying here today on an issue as important as

13 climate change. I’m Erin Mcgrath and I serve as

14 the policy manager for Audubon New York.

15 In the absence of federal action we are

16 heartened by your leadership and commitment to

17 addressing climate change with the urgency it

18 deserves. Unabated, the impacts of climate change

19 will but put New York State birds, people and

20 environment at risk within our lifetimes. The

21 stark facts presented by recent reports,

22 including the Biodiversity Report demonstrate

23 that we need to develop a comprehensive

24 mitigation strategy for reducing our carbon

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2 emissions and a robust adaptation strategy that

3 combats the effect s of climate change that we

4 are already seeing in the natural world. And the

5 time to do all of this is now.

6 We are really fortunate that we have so

7 many willing partners in the fight to combat

8 climate change since it is the biggest challenge

9 that we are facing. All of the perspectives and

10 concerns that are being presented today will

11 ensure that New York State’s strategy to combat

12 climate change is robust, inclusive and targeted

13 toward our frontline communities and ecosystems.

14 What Audubon brings to the table is a

15 desire to use nature’s toolbox to support the

16 recommendations of the IPCC, which is to limit

17 global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius by

18 achieving carbon neutrality by 2050. This will

19 require us to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions

20 where technologically and financially feasible

21 and then neutralize or offset the remaining

22 emissions to reach net zero carbon or carbon

23 neutrality.

24 Carbon sequestration is an important

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2 strategy for New York State, but first I will add

3 my voice to those who are concerned about the use

4 of offsets. We are also concerned by the

5 practices of the European Union and do not

6 believe that we should be planting trees in

7 Brazil to offset carbon emissions in New York

8 State. Planting monocultures that lack

9 biodiversity is not optimal for sequestering

10 carbon and it does not provide quality habitat

11 for birds and other wildlife.

12 Any offset program that is implemented

13 by New York State should focus on increasing

14 carbon sequestration by restoring and conserving

15 and natural forests and coastal marshes in New

16 York State. Not only will this allow us to offset

17 the emissions we cannot eliminate, restoring our

18 forests and coasts will help us to mitigate the

19 impacts of extreme weather events and the

20 flooding that we’re seeing on Long Island and

21 Lake Ontario. We’ll also be able to provide a

22 host of other ecosystem services, including those

23 that are most important to Audubon, which is

24 habitat for birds and other wildlife that are

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2 facing extinction in the face of a changing

3 climate.

4 If we are to use ecosystem restoration

5 and improve carbon sequestration to offset carbon

6 emissions, we must ensure that such offsets are

7 credible, verifiable and only used for activities

8 that cannot be eliminated to human health or

9 safety, extreme financial impacts or the

10 constraints of available technology. And above

11 all, they must not negatively impact communities

12 that have already suffered environmental

13 injustices for far too long.

14 Audubon has been working on climate

15 since 2014, when we put forth our leading climate

16 report showing the impacts birds. And while it

17 does feel overwhelming, we believe that through

18 the use of offsets that are very carefully

19 tailored and only used for those things that we

20 truly cannot eliminate, along with extreme

21 mitigation of our carbon emissions we can, New

22 York State can serve as a champion for the

23 environment and successfully combat the extreme

24 effects of climate change.

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2 Thank you for your leadership on this

3 issue. We truly do appreciate it and thank you

4 for the opportunity to testify here today.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

6 very much for your testimony. [applause] I’m sure

7 everybody up here is going have a couple of

8 questions. I’d like to start, if I could. You’ve

9 all indicated you support the idea of offset and

10 carbon neutrality. I heard also interwoven with

11 your comments the -- I think I heard, I want to

12 confirm -- the overall goal of reducing and

13 eliminating input. Is that accurate? Did I hear

14 you right, that that’s the overarching goal?

15 MS. MAHAR: Yes.

16 MR. FARMER: Yes.

17 MS. MCGRATH: Yes.

18 MS. TIGHE: I think what we

19 collectively, and we’ve all signed on to the memo

20 that Jessica referenced in her testimony, that

21 our objective is to offsets being used in very

22 limited circumstances that would be prescribed to

23 deal with those emissions where we can’t get

24 there, where it’s non-achievable. And I think as

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2 I said, what’s non-achievable today, by 2040 may

3 be achievable. So that’s something that’s not

4 meant to be static. It’s meant to be something

5 that evolves over time. And we should keep

6 looking at that, because as you noted earlier in

7 your discussion, there is going to be

8 technological changes that help us get there.

9 There is a company now that is pulling

10 carbon out of the atmosphere and selling it to

11 Coca-Cola. Right. That’s not economic now, but at

12 some point something like that may be. So I think

13 -- we don’t think that should be a license to

14 continue to put out vast pollution.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I

16 appreciate that because if abused, the carbon

17 neutrality offset tool is a method for

18 maintaining the status quo. So that is a real

19 concern. The status quo means that, Erin, all of

20 your coastal marshes will be gone. They’re going

21 to drown. They represent an equilibrium between

22 the sedimentation and sea level rise right now.

23 They’ve been able to keep up with, I’m talking

24 about the Spartina marshes. They’ve been able to

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2 keep up for the last 8,000 years with the gradual

3 rise of sea level. But they will drown in place

4 if we do not take control of this issue. And it

5 will have a devastating impact on everything that

6 you mentioned. You left out one more thing, which

7 is the economy of the state. I know that’s not

8 your main focus and I know it’s also in your

9 field of vision. So I’m not being critical, but I

10 do think it deserves to be mentioned here.

11 The panel that preceded you was people

12 from the business community. They’re in harm’s

13 way as well. And certainly, the natural world is

14 what attracted colonization of North America and

15 New York in the first place. My town, 1655, the

16 reason they came to my town was because we have a

17 spectacular natural environment that attracted

18 people from Europe to settle in Setauket, and by

19 the way, it was its own colony when it began in

20 1655. In geologic time, that was yesterday, and

21 now, we’re looking at the loss of the very

22 features that brought the first colonists to New

23 York.

24 If we allow that to happen, shame on us.

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2 So I agree with you. The time is now. We have

3 four weeks and we must not fail. But we need to

4 do it right. Some of the offsets I’ve heard

5 include using existing nuclear power plants for

6 carbon offsets. What do you think about that?

7 Should that be allowable? Nuclear power plants

8 that --

9 MS. TIGHE: I don’t think anyone thinks

10 of that as an offset. I think right now, we’re

11 talking about carbon free energy. The main

12 concern is that there’s massive amounts of

13 greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuel power

14 plants. I don’t think anyone here is referring to

15 them as an offset.

16 MR. FARMER: Right, I mean to be clear,

17 under the framework that we’re suggesting, which

18 by the way, is one way that the CCPA could be

19 greatly strengthened is to codify 70 percent

20 renewables by 2030 and 100 percent clean energy

21 by 2040. If that’s --

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Are you

23 only talking energy sector?

24 MR. FARMER: In the energy sector,

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2 that’s right.

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: What about

4 transportation?

5 MR. FARMER: Yeah, no, exactly. But,

6 sorry, just --

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Et cetera.

8 MR. FARMER: -- to finish the thought --

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Sure.

10 MR. FARMER: -- with that requirement in

11 place, that means that it’s not an offset to

12 achieve the requirements of that program. So, you

13 know, what we’re talking about, and I think kind

14 of the standard understanding of the term offsets

15 is that you take a sector that the emissions

16 limits kind of are not directly addressing, which

17 here, agriculture is the way this is set up, for

18 example, and you allow for an economic incentive

19 to credit activity there that is a carbon sink

20 activity that has other environmental benefits.

21 And you insist through the framework that should

22 be regularly updated, a stringent, transparent

23 process that those are indeed real, verifiable,

24 permanent emission reductions. And so I don’t

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2 think that anyone is thinking, for example,

3 existing nuclear power is an offset. And I mean

4 more broadly speaking, I do want to emphasize,

5 there is so much --

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I’m

7 reassured to hear that. Thank you. We’ll hold you

8 to that, because it has been suggested. I’m not

9 just making this up out of whole cloth.

10 MR. FARMER: Okay. Well, certainly not

11 by us.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: And I’ll

13 point out that unlike the renewable energy

14 sources that are from things like hydroelectric,

15 there is an embrittlement process that is taking

16 place and these plants have almost ended their

17 useful lives now. But the radiation does make the

18 container vessels dangerous going forward, beyond

19 the designed useful life. So you can’t count on

20 it, between now and 2050 that these are going to

21 actually be all that helpful. So we need to have

22 a broad vision here of what is useful for

23 maintaining energy sourcing going forward.

24 I don’t think we are going to build any

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2 new nuclear power plants. We’ve got one for sale,

3 by the way, at Shoreham, if you want to get an

4 unusual used container vessel, we’ve got one

5 there. I don’t know if you know how to move it,

6 but it is indicative of a need though to really

7 start to think comprehensively.

8 One of the things that the CCPA does is

9 it sets in place what I think is ultimately the

10 most important piece, which is a broad array,

11 including environmental justice communities built

12 in from the beginning, and a broad array of

13 stakeholders that will give guidance and advice

14 and have real power in terms of the perception of

15 the wisdom that their advice really represents.

16 We’re not going to be able to do this as

17 legislators year to year. The administration is

18 going to always, not just this administration,

19 any administration at the executive level is

20 always going to be subjected to budgetary

21 constraints and limitations of personnel

22 availability, retirement problems.

23 What we need is real people who are the

24 stakeholders, the citizens, a cross section of

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2 the citizens of the state. That will enable us to

3 reach our goal. If we listen to those people, if

4 we empower them in the first place, which is what

5 is at the core of the CCPA, we empower a cross-

6 section of the people of the state of New York

7 and we say your voices matter and we will listen,

8 and the legislature can instruct that they will

9 listen, that they will be listened to, excuse me,

10 that they will be listened to and that, I think,

11 will give us a chance to make a thousand, 10,000

12 little incremental decisions along the way that

13 have been screened first through the debate that

14 will take place from our advisory group.

15 That advisory group needs to be as broad

16 as possible. It needs to include everybody at

17 this panel and much more, and we need to have you

18 reporting back to the legislature on a regular

19 basis. And we’ll be making course corrections

20 legislatively, inevitably, as we learn more. As

21 Julie has already, quite rightly pointed out,

22 there are going to be innovations coming in the

23 future, innovations and inventions.

24 But we, at the legislative level, need

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2 to hear first from the panel’s wise men and women

3 and then we can make adjustments. So this is not

4 meant to be a one-off and it’s some sort of

5 monolith that we can never touch again. It’s

6 meant to be a goal setting bill that empowers

7 real people who have been disempowered too often

8 or who have only been obliquely listened to and

9 then to go forward toward goals that -- gosh just

10 this year, what we’ve learned from the scientific

11 community has suggested that we are going to need

12 to remain flexible on adjusting those goals. We

13 may have less time than we know.

14 But I really hope that we all stay

15 engaged and don’t end up, you know, failing to

16 meet this moment that we’re in, and collectively,

17 as you’ve each pointed out, a moment that we’ve

18 never been in this moment before in terms of CO2

19 as a species. Our species has never encountered

20 this before. And --

21 MS. TIGHE: Our groups all stand ready

22 to work with you, as we have in the past --

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

24 MS. TIGHE: -- to make sure that we get

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2 something done and obviously you and I have

3 worked together a lot to try and get, and

4 accomplishing a lot. And so, we are very anxious

5 to get something done this legislative session

6 for the very reasons that you just pointed out.

7 And we are prepared to spend a lot of effort in

8 order to make sure that that happens and make

9 sure all of your colleagues in both houses are

10 prepared to do that as well as the governor.

11 MR. FARMER: Yeah. And I mean regarding

12 this planning process that you set forth, it’s an

13 incredibly smart idea. And it’s something about

14 the CCPA that we really think is a leading

15 feature of the CCPA and we strongly support and

16 we strongly support equity screens and other

17 planning measures that are included. You know,

18 when it comes down to the details, I think we’ve

19 suggested some mechanics on the bill language

20 about situating that within the energy plan and

21 making sure that all of the ambitious programs

22 that New York has set up that are functioning and

23 doing really good work, you know, the offshore

24 wind program, NYSERDA’s existing range of

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2 programs, that we can build from those as fast as

3 possible. And so we have kind of some details on

4 how we think something that incorporates really

5 all of the substance of the kind of smart

6 planning process of the CCPA and then smoothes

7 that out with existing framework of laws in a way

8 that it functions extremely efficiently together.

9 And so I think that’s an example of how the bills

10 can be combined and together it will be

11 incredibly strong.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: What about

13 the advisory group composition?

14 MS. MAHAR: I think there have been a

15 lot of ideas --

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I mean the

17 executive, for example, during -- excuse me just

18 one second.

19 MS. MAHAR: Yeah, go ahead.

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: The

21 executive in what we did not embrace as part of

22 the proposed budget, thought that instead of

23 something like what we’ve put forward in the

24 CCPA, which is 25 advisors, and you hear from me,

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2 our intent would be a cross section of the wisdom

3 available to us from advocates and ordinary

4 people around the state, the governor put forward

5 nine people, six of whom were his own cabinet

6 appointees. I’m sorry, that is not a successful

7 formula for anything other than status quo and

8 control. We need to get a little beyond the

9 normal political imperative of controlling

10 everything from single points of government. Or

11 am I off base?

12 MS. MAHAR: No, not at all. And I think

13 today’s hearing has also been helpful in bringing

14 more voices and additional voices who have been

15 asking frankly, to be part of the process which

16 speaks to your desire and the desire of the

17 public to have a robust stake holder process. I

18 think this will lead to a spirited and productive

19 discussion between you and the senate and the

20 executive about how to structure it, but we

21 absolute I would support -- I’ll speak for The

22 Nature Conservancy, I don’t want to speak for the

23 panel. The Nature Conservancy for sure would

24 support a process that creates engagement and

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2 also a way for members of the public and members

3 who are selected by the legislature and the

4 executive together to bring their expertise into

5 this process. And I think there’s a lot of models

6 for that, and there have been people who have

7 testified here today, I think, that are serving

8 on similar, you know, task forces or councils in

9 other states so I don’t think we have to reinvent

10 the wheel. I think that there’s probably a way

11 that we could do this and it’ll be okay.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I need

13 that reassurance, I thank you. I want it to be

14 okay. And I think everybody involved. The

15 governor has been a leader, a national leader on

16 this and so I’m not being critical of the

17 governor. I was there when he and Al Gore helped

18 set the ship that we are now sailing in motion at

19 Columbia University about five years ago.

20 [laughter as lights go out and back on].

21 DANNY: Sorry, it wasn’t intentional,

22 Steve.

23 MS. TIGHE: He’s just doing his energy

24 conservation part.

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2 DANNY: Just moving things along.

3 MS. MAHAR: So I don’t do reliability

4 issue.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I

6 appreciate that sentiment though. And it’s

7 important to hear it as part of today’s testimony

8 because there is always a struggle over power. I

9 don’t mean the kind of power that Danny just

10 touched on with the lights. I’m talking about who

11 is going to control the process of who has a

12 voice. That’s why the word community is part of

13 this. Those communities that have been

14 disempowered historically is part of why we’ve

15 got such a big problem. It’s almost half the

16 population of the state that had no voice on the

17 environment. That has to change. They have to be

18 at the table, we have to work together and be

19 empathetic with one another’s needs. And that’s

20 part of the goal of this. And part of why it will

21 be significant if we can achieve the passage in

22 the next month because that’s what has to happen

23 in every state and ultimately in every nation.

24 And so we’re really hopeful that you as

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2 third party validators will understand the

3 significance of the broad outline, structure and

4 purpose of these features of the CCPA. I want to

5 yield to my colleagues now. Is there other

6 individuals who want to offer questions?

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Can I just get

8 a quick clarification?

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Yes,

10 Barbara.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Jessica,

12 talking about people serving on panels in other

13 states. I’m assuming you’re not saying there are

14 not plenty of people here and 20 million people

15 in New York State who have all the expertise that

16 we need?

17 MS. MAHAR: Yes, don’t import people.

18 But what I’m saying is the process that states

19 are using to tackle similar issues could serve as

20 models as we’re setting up whatever governance

21 structure needs to be created to move forward

22 with the council structure in the CCPA. But yes,

23 do not import people. We have good New Yorkers

24 who can do that.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Thank you. Not

3 that I’m opposed to [unintelligible] [04:35:01]

4 the other states, but --

5 MS. MAYAR: Thank you for clarifying

6 that. Thank you.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Danny?

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Oh, no.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I have

10 many more questions, but I just want to say you

11 have provided us with comments in written form

12 that is a draft of suggested amendments to the

13 bill we are studying that and --

14 MS. TIGHE: As I mentioned in my e-mail,

15 we would be happy to meet with you in Long Island

16 or in Albany to discuss that in further detail.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

18 Thank you very much for your testimony here

19 today, thank you and we look forward to working

20 with you and accomplishing something with you

21 going forward. Thank you for your leadership on

22 this.

23 MS. MCGRATH: Thank you. Thank you all.

24 MR. FARMER: Thank you and thank you for

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2 your leadership on this. [applause]

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Our next

4 panel will be Kate Boicourt, director of

5 resilience at the Waterfront Alliance, Maggie

6 Clarke, Dr. Maggie Clarke founder of Zero Waste

7 New York. Welcome.

8 MS. KATE BOICOURT, DIRECTOR OF

9 RESILIENCE, WATERFRONT ALLIANCE: Thank you for

10 having us.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Why don’t

12 we go in the sequence I introduced you just now?

13 So, Kate, please begin.

14 MS. BOICOURT: Great. Hi. And thank you

15 for your leadership on this issue and thank you

16 to the Assembly members that have been

17 participating in this effort. I also should say I

18 must be in good hands, I’m a former wetlands

19 ecologist and so I get excited when elected

20 officials know what Spartina means, so --

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Spartina

22 patens is the high marsh. Spartina alterniflora

23 is the low marsh --

24 MS. BOICOURT: There you go.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- and

3 they’re both in harm’s way right now.

4 MS. BOICOURT: Exactly. So I think, and

5 we’re coming at this, we’re coming at this, we’re

6 an organization of over a thousand partners from

7 Northern New Jersey and all of the five boroughs

8 in New York City. And we are stakeholders with

9 ties to our waterways and waterfronts and for us.

10 climate change is very much an issue that we’re

11 concerned about, so we’re very excited to see the

12 Climate and Communities Protection Act being

13 proposed today and hopefully will be passed.

14 So I’ll try to skip through some of the

15 things that have already been mentioned today,

16 except where I want to reiterate folks that have

17 made those notes. You know, we know this is an

18 issue that is a generational effort, but for

19 which to act now, so we very much support this

20 act to take aggressive action as soon as we

21 possibly can. And we also need to be thinking

22 about not only greenhouse mitt mitigation but

23 also adaptation of our communities. And I think

24 there’s a few tie-ins here where we can think

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2 about jobs and justice as at the same time we’re

3 thinking about investment in coastal communities

4 at the frontlines and climate mitigation. So I

5 think there are some creative ways to do that and

6 I appreciate your broad framework in thinking

7 about how we can start that conversation.

8 So I just want to speak a little bit to

9 the economics. There have been discussions about

10 costs today. I’d say we’re already paying the

11 cost of inaction and we’re paying it quite

12 largely. It’s already levied a huge toll on us

13 here in New York City and in New Jersey and in

14 the globe and in actually Upstate New York for

15 those of you that representing Upstate or

16 collaborating with your colleagues that are.

17 And co-pollutants, I’m really happy to

18 see are focusing on justice in this bill in that

19 co-pollutants are a huge issue that have affected

20 our urban areas in New York City, and we know

21 that that’s a great opportunity to both deal with

22 climate and co-pollutants and our asthma rates

23 and all of the other unjust impacts that our

24 communities have.

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2 And I’ll nod to Eddie Batista. I think I

3 saw him in the room. I know he’s been organizing

4 on this issue for a long time and a lot of other

5 environmental justice communities, We Act for

6 Environmental Justice and others. So I want to

7 acknowledge that great work that has been done.

8 So to the economic ends, you know,

9 Hurricane Sandy ravaged the East Coast. We paid

10 $60 billion in damages, and as a nation, in 2017

11 alone, we suffered $300 billion in damages. And

12 that’s roughly the GDP of Ireland. So we know

13 we’re paying the cost now. So I think that as we

14 talk about the cost of acting, I think those are

15 stats that are important to kind of bring home to

16 folks. And that’s something that we’re facing

17 more and more.

18 So we do need action on mitigation and

19 we also need to seek opportunities for adaptation

20 as well. So as part of any climate change

21 legislation, I think we need to ensure that

22 adaptation is part of the investments in our

23 communities. And we need a variety of options to

24 redefine our relationship with the environment

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2 and particularly heat and water, green and gray

3 infrastructure. We need to be thinking about

4 natural landscape features, integrated flood

5 protection management and especially in those

6 areas of highest risk.

7 And I heard a few things today, one

8 which of was the gentleman talking about

9 insulation or effectively retrofitting homes. I

10 think there are things like that that can be done

11 where we’re talking about making energy

12 efficiency with low income homeowners and we’re

13 also talking about giving them housing options,

14 elevating their homes, retrofitting their homes

15 so they’re more resilient to coastal storms. So I

16 think that’s something that’s very important to

17 consider now.

18 And also, you know, we’re here as the

19 Waterfront Alliance to say we’re here to help as

20 you’re considering legislation like this in the

21 future, making sure we are increasing funding for

22 adaptation. And I think that’s something that

23 we’re actually organizing right now, to really I

24 think you hit the note on the head making sure we

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2 have leadership beyond the electoral cycle.

3 And so we, as an alliance are organizing

4 New Yorkers and New Jerseyans to do just that and

5 we are gathering to gear up for a 2020 campaign

6 on organizing how we’re going pay for this, who

7 decides, who benefits and so I encourage you to

8 get in touch with us about that.

9 But just to reiterated, you know, this

10 is really a fight against the same old deal. We

11 want jobs and justice, and I think that that’s an

12 important piece of this that makes it different

13 from other forms of legislation. And I think we

14 really have an opportunity here to re-envision

15 our relationship with energy efficiency, but also

16 with our coastlines and think of what we want our

17 future to look like. And I encourage to you to

18 also think about the positive aspects of that as

19 you are rolling out the legislation.

20 And I think -- communication was brought

21 up as a real issue and I know that you mentioned

22 that to the advocacy community and so I think

23 that’s loud and clear and we’re trying and we’re

24 trying to figure out messaging that works. And I

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2 think that’s very much an important issue. And as

3 part of this legislation and as part of the

4 projects that will come out of it, making sure

5 that provisions for communication and public

6 engagement are part of that is something that we

7 feel is very important.

8 So thank you again. I should also say

9 wind power is something that we’re very in

10 support of and I think there’s jobs created

11 through that. So thank you for your time today

12 and I cede the rest of the time to my colleagues.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

14 for your time today. You have been so patient in

15 waiting since the sun came up this morning. But I

16 appreciate your testimony. Thank you. Doctor.

17 DR. MAGGIE CLARKE, PHD, FOUNDER, ZERO

18 WASTE NEW YORK: Thank you very much. I really

19 appreciate, I’m very happy to be here presenting

20 to you, a fellow geologist. And I’ve known this

21 for some time and so it’s very exciting. I’m

22 going to be providing information I don’t think

23 you’ve heard before. No one else in the room has

24 said anything and it’s additional ways to combat

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2 climate change that are not well known. So I’m

3 Maggie Clarke Ph.D. environmental scientist,

4 earth and environmental scientist, former CUNY

5 professor, currently on the board of both the

6 Manhattan Solid Waste Advisory Board and the

7 National Recycling Coalition Board, as well as

8 chair of the Sustainability and Resource

9 Conservation Division of the Air and Waste

10 Management Association and member of the New York

11 State Association of Reduction, Reuse and

12 Recycling Legislative Committee.

13 I’ve published papers that that discuss

14 the relationship between zero waste and climate

15 change. Today, I’m speaking as a professional in

16 my field because we haven’t had time to get all

17 of these organizations to approve this testimony

18 but I’m glad to hear there’s two more weeks that

19 maybe we can get some written testimony to you.

20 So solutions to climate change are

21 usually limited to what we’ve heard today,

22 alternative energy, alternative transportation,

23 energy conservation and related topics. This is

24 based on contribution of carbon to the atmosphere

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2 by electrical generation, buildings and

3 transportation sectors. But in 2009, U.S. EPA

4 presented a paper at a zero waste conference that

5 I attended showing an alternative view of carbon

6 emissions to the atmosphere. In this systems

7 view, EPA showed that materials management,

8 specifically production of consumer goods,

9 packaging and food accounted for well over 40

10 percent of carbon emissions to the atmosphere.

11 Looked at this way, it becomes clear to

12 those of us who have been working in the fields

13 of waste prevention, reuse, recycling and

14 composting that these methods, also known as zero

15 waste solutions, together are a long neglected

16 way to combat climate change. And yet this

17 information, this EPA pie chart that’s below and

18 I hope you all have this testimony that I gave

19 out to you, it’s not known by those who have been

20 devising Green New Deals or other programs to

21 combat climate change.

22 I recognize that this is a pretty busy

23 graph and so on the next page, I re-expressed it,

24 and you can see that about half of the carbon

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2 emissions to the atmosphere are associated with

3 production and transportation of packaging, goods

4 and food and a little bit due to use of

5 appliances and devices, which would be reduced

6 with waste prevention and reuse and repair

7 programs and so forth.

8 This is the half of the pie that would I

9 hope that your committee could look more into and

10 help with more legislation. The other half, which

11 is passenger transportation and use of HVAC and

12 lighting, basically building conservation, that’s

13 getting a lot of attention already. So moving on,

14 materials production is an unknown carbon

15 footprint to most people.

16 As far back as 1990, EPA recognized that

17 the much larger impact of waste is in materials

18 production, as compared with disposal in the life

19 cycle of waste. EPA realized that reducing the

20 demand for consumer goods, packaging and food

21 would reduce emissions generated in the

22 extraction of materials, that’s logging and

23 mining, refining and manufacturing processes and

24 transportation of materials between these steps.

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2 Reducing land filling and incineration by zero

3 waste methods further reduces carbon emissions to

4 the atmosphere.

5 Reducing the use of paper and wood

6 products allows the trees to remain as carbon

7 sinks in the forest. This is a schematic diagram

8 that EPA put together a long time ago to show

9 various life cycle steps, starting with raw

10 materials acquisition going to manufacturing use

11 and so forth and you see the CO2 and methane and

12 other greenhouse gas emissions associated with

13 each one and the sinks also.

14 Zero waste has also been an essential

15 component of climate action plans. And you may

16 have never have heard of climate action plans,

17 but again, EPA back in the early aughts was

18 giving communities advice on how to put these

19 together. And so as far back as 2004, cities like

20 San Francisco have included zero waste programs

21 as part of their citywide climate action plans

22 which also include alternative energy projects

23 like wind and solar and energy conservation.

24 EPA advises state and local

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2 jurisdictions on writing these climate action

3 plans and has plan listings on their website. I

4 should say had, I’m not sure if it exists. The

5 report with the pie chart, the special, very

6 important pie chart I know does not exist on

7 their website right now, but some of us have

8 copies.

9 A climate change action plan lays out a

10 strategy including specific policy

11 recommendations that a local government would use

12 to address climate change reduce greenhouse gas

13 emissions. And San Francisco’s plan includes

14 sections including zero waste measures, for

15 example, increasing residential recycling and

16 composting. They estimate CO2 reduction in tons

17 of 70,000, increasing commercial recycling and

18 composting, 109,000. And construction and

19 demolition and down the line, they’ve actually

20 enumerated the number of tons of CO2 reductions.

21 And all together, these represent 302,000 tons of

22 CO2 reduced from a total of 2,614,000 for all

23 categories of zero waste actions, also including

24 transportation, energy efficiency and renewable

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2 energy.

3 So what’s zero waste? In this pie chart

4 that I have here, this is another EPA pie chart

5 and you’ve probably seen pie charts like this for

6 waste, but EPA puts out two different charts. The

7 one that you see more often than this one shows

8 recycling categories and composting categories.

9 In this one, you see containers and packaging,

10 non-durable goods, durable goods, which are made

11 to last for at least three years, yard waste and

12 food waste. Okay.

13 And when you look at it this way, you

14 can see, for example, that the containers and

15 packaging, what kind of zero waste solutions can

16 be done? Recycling, redesign, bans and reuse. In

17 terms of non-durable goods, which are

18 proliferating the throw-away society, recycling,

19 bans, EPR, extended producer responsibility and

20 redesign. We need to redesign some of these

21 packaging types and non-durable types out of

22 existence.

23 Durable goods, those are things made to

24 last more than three years, we need more repair

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2 and reuse programs. We need to be able to

3 characterize what is on the curb that is reusable

4 and then rescue it from being crunched in the

5 back of a packer truck and sent off to landfill

6 or far away incinerators.

7 Food scraps, we can reduce the amount of

8 food waste, reuse food, composting and anaerobic

9 digestion, yard trimmings, composting and

10 anaerobic digestion, so and up in the upper left

11 corner there, we need more education. We need to

12 motivate people to participate. It’s not simply

13 to send out one brochure once a year, as our

14 Department of Sanitation does. They spend about

15 25 to 50 cents per person per year on education.

16 That’s like a postage stamp and they think

17 they’re going to get education, much less

18 motivation? I don’t think so.

19 Enforcement, likewise. It’s spotty, it’s

20 not enough. Pay as you throw. I’ve long been a

21 proponent of pay as you throw here in the city. I

22 know that the last solid waste management plan

23 for the state beyond waste included statewide pay

24 as you throw and I’m still waiting to see that

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2 happen. I would love to see that happen because

3 EPA said decades ago that that is the one best

4 way to reduce, reuse, recycle and compost, that

5 one mechanism where everybody does not pay the

6 same for solid waste management or disposal. They

7 pay according to how much they throw out. And

8 that then gets people to act properly.

9 Since sustainable materials management

10 addresses 42 percent of carbon emissions, zero

11 waste solutions and the circular economy should

12 become a high priority solution for any Green New

13 Deal legislation, as well as program budgets and

14 statewide plans with the purpose of reducing

15 climate change. As it stands now, the New York

16 State budget has been starved for many years, the

17 Environmental Protection Fund which is funded by

18 unclaimed nickel deposits on bottles and cans

19 goes primarily for purchase of Upstate lands and

20 very little is allocated for recycling and other

21 zero waste programs. It’s a mistake that zero

22 waste solutions are not emphasized in Green New

23 Deal legislation.

24 This all needs to change to take

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2 advantage of the serious reductions to climate

3 change that would occur if zero waste programs,

4 legislation, billing systems like pay as you

5 throw, improved education and enforcement were to

6 be adequately funded and prioritized in the

7 state. Above, I mentioned this pie chart showing

8 the goods packaging and food based view of our

9 waste stream. And in fact, it’s really not a

10 waste stream, it’s a discard stream, along with

11 zero waste solutions that each slice of the pie

12 can utilize.

13 Despite the fact that much of these

14 materials are disposed in incinerators and

15 landfills, the fact that they could be reduced,

16 reused and recycled and composted, most of these

17 can be dealt with in much more intelligent ways

18 with proper programs and legislative and budget

19 support. There are also job benefits to zero

20 waste, as you can see in this next chart here

21 that if you reuse products, computer reuse 233

22 jobs per 10,000 tons of per year of waste and

23 compare that to the bottom, landfill and

24 incineration. You only have one job per 10,000

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2 tons per year of waste. The farther up in

3 sustainability hierarchies you go, the more jobs

4 you have.

5 The Green New Deal legislation also

6 refers back to the original new deal, which

7 prioritized the job creation and it’s shown in

8 many studies, including this one mentioned, that

9 the jobs are created at the top of

10 sustainability, hierarchies like solar energy is

11 at the top of the hierarchy and then fossil fuel

12 and nuclear require far fewer people for the

13 amount of energy produced. So repair and reuse of

14 products creates orders of magnitude more jobs

15 than landfilling and incineration do on a per ton

16 basis. So to conclude, it’s in the best interest

17 of this committee to prioritize zero waste

18 solutions as illustrated in my testimony today.

19 To reduce carbon emissions, New York has

20 to recognize that zero waste solutions must be a

21 big part of any Green New Deal and a significant

22 proportion of climate change budget needs to be

23 allocated to zero waste initiatives. Any future

24 legislation and I hope that if it can’t be done

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2 this year, that you’ll look into this next year,

3 that legislation to combat climate change must

4 incorporate zero waste policies in order to

5 reflect this need. And I’m happy to take

6 questions.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Questions,

8 colleagues? [applause]

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Just a comment

10 to say I agree.

11 DR. CLARKE: Oh, thank you. I’m glad.

12 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: And thank you.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: The only

14 thing I would say is that we are aware of some

15 parts of what you have brought to us today.

16 DR. CLARKE: Great.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: We did, as

18 part of the budget, create a food recycling and

19 composting law for the first time in the state

20 and it perhaps gives us a beachhead on the issue

21 that you rightly point out is a whole continental

22 problem. We’ll certainly study your testimony.

23 Thank you very much.

24 DR. CLARKE: Thank you.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you,

3 both.

4 MS. BOICOURT: Thank you. [applause]

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Our next

6 panel is Mark Dunlea, the chairperson of the

7 Green Education and Legal Fund, Laura Haight,

8 U.S. policy director of the Partnership for

9 Policy Integrity, Eric Weltman senior organizer

10 Food and Water Watch and Rachel Goodgal of 350NY.

11 Welcome.

12 MR. MARK DUNLEA, CHAIRPERSON, GREEN

13 EDUCATION AND LEGAL FUND: Thank you.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Mark

15 Dunlea, you want to start off?

16 MR. DUNLEA: Okay. Well, I’m Mark

17 Dunlea, and I’m chairman of the Green Education

18 and Legal Fund and one of the principle authors

19 of the New York State OFF Act, which has 40

20 legislative co-sponsors that would bring us to

21 100 percent renewable energy net zero carbon

22 emissions by 2030 and impose an immediate halt to

23 any new fossil fuel infrastructure. I certainly

24 want to thank the legislature for holding this

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2 hearing today. I think it’s great the legislature

3 is going to be engaged with the governor in

4 trying to set climate policy for the state. And I

5 also want to commend particularly Mr.

6 Englebright, Assembly Member Englebright for his

7 leadership with the CCPA. And I think the CCPA

8 deserves a lot of credit, particularly for making

9 the issues of environmental justice and just

10 transition and labor standards, the need for, you

11 know, living wage union jobs, a core component of

12 climate action. I think not only has that issue

13 been raised here in New York State, but it’s also

14 really become a national issue.

15 And I think some of the economic justice

16 issues -- I was so glad the last speaker did make

17 a mention to the Green New Deal, which is

18 something that I first started working on in 2010

19 and I will notice there is a Green New Deal

20 legislation also pending in New York State, which

21 I hope will be included in the final climate

22 resolution.

23 I guess the first point I want to start

24 off with is that the climate situation is much

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2 worse than we have been discussing today. You

3 know, it was good that the IPCC recently

4 repackaged its previous finding. They didn’t

5 really come out with anything new, but they

6 warned that we had 11 years left for bold,

7 unprecedented worldwide action to give us a

8 chance to survive in climate change.

9 Now the IPC, by nature, is a fairly

10 conservative body both because it’s trying to

11 represent scientists and because a lot of the

12 fossil depending countries like the United

13 States, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Brazil has to

14 sign off on the IPC announcements, they’ve always

15 been wrong. They’ve significantly understated the

16 extent of extreme weather and how fast climate

17 change is occurring. As one of the authors of the

18 IPCC said, what you should really do is take our

19 worst case scenario and then double it. And that

20 will give you an estimate of how bad the

21 situation is. So we do not have 11 years left and

22 also, the IPCC in that 11 year pronouncement

23 basically relies on a Hail Mary pass in order to

24 give us a chance of survival. And that is they

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2 incorporate carbon sequestration technology into

3 their path that maybe we can keep it below 1.5

4 degrees. Well, you know, I don’t know many

5 football teams that rely on a Hail Mary pass,

6 even a basketball team that relies on Hail Mary

7 passes as a basic core strategy and that’s what,

8 unfortunately, the IPCC did.

9 I am particularly scared that in recent

10 years, that more and more scientists have begun

11 to raise the possibility of the extinction of

12 human species. That’s a very frightening

13 situation and about a year ago, the University of

14 California San Diego with a forward or a quote

15 provided by the then Governor Jerry Brown of

16 California, put out a report that there was the

17 possibility within the next 50 years, 30 percent

18 possibility of the extension of the human

19 species.

20 We need to take real action to stop that

21 from occurring. And that’s where I think the,

22 unfortunately, the CCPA falls short in that its

23 goal for 100 percent clean energy, zero carbon

24 emissions by 2050 is too slow. We do hope after

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2 this hearing that the Assembly will put forth

3 what changes it is considering to the CCPA to

4 make it stronger. We think there should be a more

5 transparent process and that the public has the

6 right to know what, in fact, are the real issues

7 being debated in the state legislature.

8 Now your hearing notice provided three

9 questions to address. So I’ll deal with them

10 briefly and then also talk about quickly some

11 other issues that we hope will be included in the

12 final package. Certainly as I said, the CCPA

13 demands strong recommendations, strong applause

14 for its commitment to try to get more funds for

15 the environmental justice community.

16 We’ve heard a lot of claims today that

17 we’re trying to get all the climate funds. It’s

18 not really what’s in the, you know, the CCPA.

19 It’s much more limited than that, but we wish you

20 well in trying to get as much money as possible

21 to help as EJ communities as possible. But I also

22 remember, you know, I spent 30 years running a

23 statewide antipoverty group, The Hunger Action

24 Network, and before that, I was a state head

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2 organizer for a group formerly known as ACORN,

3 now New York Communities for Change, and so

4 ending poverty and helping people of low income

5 is very important to me.

6 And I was living in New York City during

7 Hurricane Sandy and I was part of the coalition

8 effort that really tried to work to ensure that

9 in the rebuilding effort that we dedicated jobs,

10 opportunities to those, you know, most negatively

11 impacted, low income people living in the

12 Rockaways and in Coney Island and elsewhere. But

13 what disturbed me and one of the reasons I quit

14 The Hunger Action Network and decided to go work

15 fulltime on climate change was that they were not

16 at the same time that they were demanding more

17 jobs for the rebuilding effort, they were not

18 demanding policies to stop the seas from rising

19 in the future and to stop heat waves and to stop

20 wildfires.

21 And if you want to help low income

22 people, yes, do the Elijah part, do the jobs

23 part, but you have to stop climate change.

24 Because we all know it’s low income people who

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2 are the principle victims and they don’t just

3 need jobs. They need to avoid catastrophic

4 climate change. And we’ve also have to remember

5 that the real victims are the poor people in

6 third world countries and developing countries

7 and those are the countries that are closest to

8 the equator. And it is at the equator and the

9 polls where we are seeing the most dramatic

10 changes in the climate. We are looking at 30 to

11 40 temperature rises right now in the arctic.

12 That is incredible. We don’t see that as much

13 here in New York State, but we are seeing that in

14 other parts of the world. And I think our EJ

15 component must be concerned about what we are

16 doing to help other people in other parts of the

17 world.

18 Just transition, we implore you to try

19 to put labor standards in the CCPA. I will note

20 that the OFF Act is actually significantly

21 stronger than the CCPA on the just transition

22 provisions particularly that we should be

23 requiring workers who are displaced in the fossil

24 fuel industry to actually be guaranteed jobs,

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2 besides giving priority in new hirings and that

3 we provide funding to communities negatively

4 impacted on the shutdown of the fossil fuel

5 industry.

6 The third point on the carbon offsets.

7 You might have noticed I said that our bill does

8 require 100 percent, a goal of 100 percent clean

9 energy, net zero carbon emissions. We do that by

10 2030, so a whole lot faster than 2050. So if you

11 want to do a compromise 100 percent net zero

12 carbon emissions by 2030 and zero carbon

13 emissions by 2035, that would be a compromise

14 that we could live with.

15 One of the reasons we did put that in

16 there, we are supportive of the concept of

17 regenerative agriculture, that we should be doing

18 sustainable agriculture and other changes to put

19 carbon back into the soil. One thing we’ve not

20 heard much today, other than from NYPIRG is that

21 the governor’s concept of carbon neutral by 2040

22 certainly we think opens up the door for nuclear

23 power which right now constitutes 31 percent of

24 the state’s electricity. Our bill, the OFF Act

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2 actually would require a phase-out of nuclear

3 power plants by 2025.

4 I believe Laura is going to talk a lot

5 about the problems with biomass and why that

6 should not be considered. Certainly, we do not

7 want to see the situation like we have in

8 Vermont, which gets a very significant percentage

9 from burning wood. And we’re not talking just

10 about wood stoves, we’re talking about utility

11 scale burning wood, which is not a good idea. Nor

12 are we very supportive of the use of carbon

13 sequestration. We have spent tens of millions of

14 dollars on it. Nothing’s been proven to work yet,

15 it’s a miracle of technology. If it occurs,

16 great, but let’s not, you know, rely upon that in

17 our climate policy. And I’m very concerned that

18 it’s very likely to turn into the biggest

19 corporate boondoggle in history.

20 A couple things that should be added is

21 that we should be halting fossil fuels, period.

22 Now I know there are legal issues related to the

23 jurisdiction about some of the fossil fuel

24 infrastructure related to the federal government.

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2 I will note that other states, other counties

3 across the country have begun to assert the right

4 in trying to protect public safety and health

5 that the states should take efforts to certain

6 bills. Assemblyman Carroll here earlier today,

7 has a fossil fuel moratorium bill, Senator

8 Metzger has recently introduced such a

9 legislation, the Free From Fossil Fuels Fact.

10 We have to stop burning fossil fuels.

11 And in Germany, yes, they’ve definitely increased

12 the percentage of energy they’re getting from

13 renewable but they’ve not decreased the carbon

14 emissions. And we have to do both, and I assume

15 my colleague Eric Weltman will go into more

16 details about that.

17 And we also need to ensure that, for

18 instance, like we did in New York City after

19 Hurricane Sandy, when we have to go replace gas

20 boilers, A, we don’t replace it with gas boilers,

21 that replace it with clean renewable heat systems

22 like heat pumps and geothermal, and in fact we

23 should prohibit utility companies from being

24 allowed to supply buildings that convert from oil

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2 furnaces to gas furnaces and certainly we need to

3 amend our building codes. So there are some legal

4 challenges to what the state can do to halt

5 fossil fuels, but there are a lot of different

6 ways the state can look at it.

7 One thing I’m very concerned about with

8 the CCPA is the planning process, and I would

9 suggest, as you may have done this already, but

10 of course, back in 2009, the CCPA, you know,

11 largely bills out on this 2009 executive order

12 that Governor Patterson first issued on climate.

13 There was a plan in process that was done. And

14 you can go on to the DEC website and see the

15 draft of that plan that was developed in 2009.

16 And I asked one of my friends, who used

17 to work for the Public Service Commission, well

18 how is that plan? And her response was it’s

19 pretty bad. And I said, well, how can it be bad

20 if you and other good people, Peter Iwanowicz

21 were involved in writing this plan? Well, because

22 we were told that the industry and the utility

23 companies had to write all the key policies on

24 energy.

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2 So we need to make sure that in the next

3 planning process that in fact there is a better

4 way to ensure the proper input. It needs to be

5 quicker. You know, it’s one thing to debate what

6 the state’s going do by 2030, versus 2040 versus

7 2050. But what we really should be debating is

8 what the state going to do in 2020 versus 2021

9 and versus 2022. And one of the most frightening

10 things about climate policy in New York State is

11 that after the 2002 initiative by Governor Pataki

12 to get the state to get 30 percent of its

13 electricity by 2015 by renewable energy, New York

14 State has managed to add on a grand total of four

15 percent of the state energy coming from wind and

16 solar.

17 And even to get to the governor’s

18 projection or goal of 70 percent renewable energy

19 by 2030, we have to be adding on about five

20 percent a year. And there is a big difference --

21 if we’ve added four percent over 15 years, and

22 we’re now going to add five, six, seven percent a

23 year, something has to change.

24 One problem with the CCPA is it requires

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2 a four-year review process. The OFF Act requires

3 the benchmarks of timeline every two years, not

4 every four years, and we require annual review.

5 And by the review, I think that’s really the role

6 of the state legislature can occur is that

7 annually should review the progress that the

8 state administration has made in moving to 100

9 percent clean energy and move it along.

10 One of the things actually my friend who

11 is with the Public Service Commission suggest we

12 do, look how they did the planning process in

13 California where they’ve done a much better job

14 than us. In our bill we added on a requirement to

15 have local plans on the requirement. Senator

16 Metzger and her Freedom from Fossil Fuel has

17 suggested regional planning. But certainly we

18 need more than the state involved with this and I

19 think we need to look at particularly the whole

20 issue of sighting, because we all know that if it

21 takes you 10 years to sight a large scale solar

22 or wind farm, we’re never going to solve the

23 climate change. We think that the CCPA needs to

24 be strengthened as initially intended to make it

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2 more incumbent upon the state agencies to have

3 actual full compliance with the state agency

4 climate plans and we support the concept that’s

5 in the Senator Metzger’s act that the public

6 should have the right to sue to enforce. This is

7 very, very important in California. California,

8 you know, San Diego has a climate plan to get to

9 100 percent clean energy by 2035.

10 I have three brothers that live in San

11 Diego, it’s a very conservative, Republican town.

12 If they can get to 100 percent by 2035, we should

13 be and my friend who helped, who was involved

14 there, said big thing is we have the right to sue

15 and every time they waffled, we threatened to sue

16 and then went back to the table and put it back

17 together.

18 The last point I raise in the testimony

19 is looking more at the issue of public ownership.

20 That has been particularly critical in Germany

21 and moving them to speed up renewable energy. We

22 were very disappointed last year that the

23 proposal by the governor to allow NYPA to build

24 more renewable energy was not approved. I know a

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2 different version was passed this year, but we

3 think public ownership would help with some of

4 the sighting issues, and I guess I fibbed a

5 little bit. I’ll just throw in as the last point

6 we need a state carbon tax. We cannot continue to

7 allow companies to pollute our communities for

8 free without any type of fiscal repercussions.

9 [applause]

10 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Laura

11 Haight.

12 MS. LAURA HAIGHT, U.S. POLICY DIRECTOR,

13 PARTNERSHIP FOR POLICY INTEGRITY: Good

14 afternoon.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Good

16 afternoon.

17 MS. HAIGHT: Thank you, Chairman

18 Englebright and members of the Assembly, Lifton

19 and O’Donnell for staying here through this long

20 day. And this is actually my first time

21 testifying before this committee under your

22 chairmanship, Mr. Englebright, so it’s quite an

23 honor and a pleasure to be here, especially this

24 most important issue facing our planet. I am

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2 currently working for an organization you may not

3 have heard of before, called the Partnership for

4 Policy Integrity, PFPI. We are a small but mighty

5 organization that works on largely biomass energy

6 issues and other clean energy issues, including

7 fracking and methane emissions and so forth. I’ll

8 bring that up in my testimony as well.

9 And we work on the international level,

10 as well as national and state. We’re founded in

11 Massachusetts, but I work out of my home in New

12 York. I’m going to address my comments

13 specifically on the environmental climate and

14 health impact of biomass energy. And when I’m

15 talking about biomass energy, I’m speaking

16 primarily about forest biomass energy, wood

17 burning power plants, wood burning stoves and

18 boilers. The term biomass is one of these very

19 large terms, as you know, that addresses anything

20 that’s organically derived, so it includes the

21 organic portion of municipal solid waste stream.

22 It includes cow manure, it includes algae, but

23 let’s be honest, here. Most of the power that is

24 coming from bioenergy is coming from burning

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2 trees and tree products. And in fact, in many

3 cases it’s being used as alternative for coal.

4 We are seeing that especially in England

5 and that’s unfortunate because the stack

6 emissions from wood burning power plants are

7 actually worse than the carbon emissions from

8 coal plants. However, by sort of a unfortunate

9 error in carbon accounting by the IPCC, the

10 emissions from the biogenic portion are not

11 counted, so the stack emissions, because it’s

12 burning wood is not counted as greenhouse gas

13 emissions. But all the fossil fuel input that

14 went into that production of energy is counted.

15 So, for instance, right now, in the

16 Southeast -- none of this is in my testimony, by

17 the way, this isn’t even in my outline. In the

18 Southeast, there’s tremendous, tremendous damage

19 being done where forests are being clear cut,

20 pelletized, pellets shipped overseas, burned in

21 England where they get two million pounds a day

22 in renewable subsidies and considered carbon

23 neutral and the only carbon emissions that are

24 counted in that whole process are whatever fossil

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2 fuel emissions are used in the harvesting,

3 processing or transport.

4 That’s not exactly what I was going to

5 start off by saying. I was going to talk about

6 how we support the CCPA.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

8 MS. HAIGHT: And in particular the

9 economy wide approach as well as the definition -

10 -

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: But your

12 departure has been very relevant to counter some

13 of what we’ve heard.

14 MS. HAIGHT: I will be going back, but

15 it wasn’t how I was planning on starting there

16 and I hadn’t been planning on bringing in the

17 Southeast, because the forestry industry in the

18 Northeast is quite different than in the

19 Southeast. But at any rate, one thing that we

20 have found over and over again is that most

21 emissions reductions policies, most policies,

22 such as carbon taxes, pricing programs and so

23 fords only focus on fossil fuels emissions, not

24 biomass emissions, because they’re considered

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2 biogenic. And that includes RGGI. So the Regional

3 greenhouse Gas Initiative doesn’t capture all

4 greenhouse gas emissions from power. You’re

5 right. It doesn’t include methane emissions in

6 their calculations when they’re including natural

7 gas and they don’t include emissions from biomass

8 power plants either. So it’s not -- these

9 programs are flawed in that they’re not capturing

10 all of the carbon that’s included, that’s emitted

11 as part of our electricity process.

12 Likewise and I’m sorry I’m going to

13 burst some bubbles here today, but most renewable

14 energy policies also fail to properly define

15 what, you know, the type of renewable energy we

16 want to see. When we say renewable energy, we

17 often think that that’s clean. But in fact,

18 garbage incineration and biomass burning, which

19 are the dirtiest forms of energy, separate from

20 nuclear power, but in terms of air emissions, the

21 dirtiest forms, least efficient forms of energy

22 production are almost universally included in

23 renewable energy policies.

24 And I’ve looked at over 100 of the 100

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2 percent renewable polices that have been advanced

3 around the country, I was looking for good

4 examples of definitions of biomass and I only

5 found two. And those were your bill, the CCPA and

6 the OFF Act. In the entire country, those are the

7 only good definitions. And they’re very strong

8 definitions. I mean I was looking for more nuance

9 because you can sort of try to play around with

10 what might be good biomass versus bad biomass.

11 But these are both very clean definitions in that

12 they just say no biomass, which is fine with my

13 organization because we have seen firsthand how

14 often these definitions are twisted and contorted

15 in such a way that whole forests get through

16 these loopholes.

17 And it’s been really troubling because

18 we only so many resources for clean energy and we

19 only have so much time, you know, now we’re

20 talking about ten years to reduce the emissions

21 and you’ve got money siphoned away from truly

22 clean renewable energy sources and going into

23 burning wood and wood products that are highly

24 carbon emitting. And not only that, but you are

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2 also losing the carbon sequestration value of the

3 forest from which they were harvested. And of

4 course, in the Southeast where there has been

5 just terrible destruction, you are losing

6 everything. You’re losing the soils, the carbon

7 in the soil, you’re losing everything because

8 it’s being clear cut.

9 What we have seen in examples where

10 policies have gotten stronger, unfortunately, is

11 that sometimes, this has driven more biomass

12 energy as opposed to more clean energy. So we’ve

13 seen that that in the U.S., the European Union,

14 their renewable energy directive has in fact

15 driven more biomass combustion there. And right

16 now, I almost didn’t make it to this hearing

17 today because a lot of my work has been lately on

18 defending what is really the only science based

19 policy in the country with regard to calculating

20 the carbon emissions from biomass and

21 incorporating them into policy, and that’s

22 Massachusetts Renewable Portfolio Standard, which

23 is a model because it’s actually based on

24 science. Look at that. What a surprise.

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2 And as a result of the very stringent

3 science based protocol for counting the carbon

4 emissions and so forth, requiring only very

5 efficient biomass plants to be eligible for it,

6 there are only a few biomass power plants that

7 are actually eligible for the Massachusetts RPS

8 and they’re small, they are combined heat and

9 power plants that are highly efficient, they are

10 locally sourced. We still would rather they

11 weren’t in there, but it’s an example of if you

12 wanted to craft a narrowly defined policy, it’s

13 defensible.

14 Now the Baker Administration, contrary

15 to his public image as being a champion on

16 climate change is proposing to open that wide

17 open, rollback these standards, allow dirty

18 polluting biomass energy to be purchased from

19 other states and it will allow a plant to move

20 forward, surprise, surprise, in an environmental

21 justice community in Massachusetts, Springfield,

22 Massachusetts, which has been named two years is

23 a row as the asthma capital of the United States

24 will get a 45-megawatt biomass power plant in a

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2 community that is already an EJ community, that

3 already has a garbage incinerator, they’ll be

4 getting $10 million to $12 million in revenue

5 through the RPS and it’s all because of the

6 weakening of the Massachusetts statute.

7 So you can see why I almost didn’t make

8 it here, because this is the model we’ve been

9 walking around like the world with, you know,

10 saying, well, you know, Massachusetts has a

11 science based policy. And, but I have been also

12 using your bill as a model of what a good

13 renewable energy definition would look like.

14 And the better thing in Massachusetts

15 would have been never to have had biomass allowed

16 in the RPS definition at all and we are working

17 with the Massachusetts legislature to get it

18 taken out.

19 The other cautionary tale I want to

20 include in this is we weren’t expecting this.

21 Last year, we worked with Massachusetts

22 environmentalist and clean energy activists to

23 expand their RPS, succeeded in not getting

24 everything we wanted. Of course my organization

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2 wanted us to change the definition of RPS. But

3 the other groups didn’t want to go along with

4 that. What we got was a doubling of the annual

5 increase from one percent to two percent.

6 I bring this up because I’ve heard the

7 criticism that your bill doesn’t get to 100

8 percent fast enough. Our concern is just that the

9 definition is clean. If you don’t get to 100

10 percent in 2030, that’s not necessarily the worst

11 thing in the world. What I think is the worst

12 thing in the world is if you get 100 percent of

13 2030 and it includes a lot of crappy dirty energy

14 that’s going to make our climate worse and hurt

15 our communities and add more air pollution and

16 reduce our forest, you know, living biomass,

17 which is our natural carbon sink.

18 So they had doubled their RPS to annual

19 growth from one percent to two percent and now

20 the Baker Administration is working very hard to

21 enable the state to meet those goals by importing

22 dirty power and building more dirty power. So I

23 know this won’t happen in New York, because we

24 know that you guys won’t let that happen. But I

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2 just wanted to throw that in there.

3 When we talk about time and I know I’m

4 probably up, I didn’t even look at the time when

5 I started, the timeframe is extremely important

6 when you talk about biomass manager, because you

7 know, technically yes, a tree is renewable in

8 theory. A new tree would grow -- the theory

9 behind biomass energy being carbon neutral is a

10 new tree will grow back to replace the tree that

11 burned and over time that tree will grow to be

12 able to sequester the same amount of carbon that

13 was emitted when the first tree was burned.

14 That’s a lot of ifs, right, you know.

15 And just to throw in another scientific thing,

16 with climate change, we can’t even predict that

17 new trees will grow back or will grow back in the

18 same species composition or at the same rate. But

19 in Massachusetts, when activists got this great

20 RPS regulation put in, it was a negotiation with

21 the Patrick Administration, they got a study done

22 called the Manomet Study, which showed the rate

23 of payback basically compared to fossil fuels.

24 So for instance, in a fossil fuel if you

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2 were to burn mixed road for electric production,

3 it would take more than 90 years for the new

4 wood, tree to grow back to be able to soak up all

5 the carbon emissions that came out from that hour

6 it took to burn the tree. We don’t have 90 years.

7 We don’t have 15 years, which is, you know, when

8 you start comparing mixed wood to coal, you’re

9 still talking about decades, 45 to 75 years from

10 when that tree gets burned. If you talk about

11 logging residues, just trees and limbs and

12 branches and things that might otherwise have

13 just rested on the forest floor and naturally

14 held on to carbon for a while, but eventually

15 decomposed, you’re talking about still ten years

16 compared to coal. We don’t have even have ten

17 years.

18 We need to start reducing emissions

19 right away. And this brings me to the bigger

20 picture, of the IPCC 1.5 report and I will

21 probably wrap up. The IPCC, as I said, had some

22 sort of failed carbon accounting for biomass and

23 also almost all, like 100 out of the 120 or so

24 models that have been developed to get to that

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2 2.0 emissions level have relied on bio-energy

3 combined with -- some level of bio-energy often

4 combined with carbon capture and sequestration,

5 BECCs.

6 So when you heard John Bartow earlier

7 today from the forest industry talk about how

8 wood could be carbon neutral or carbon positive,

9 I think he actually really meant carbon negative

10 but that being positive, that’s based on sort of

11 this fictitious view first of all that burning

12 wood is carbon neutral, which it’s not. And then

13 based on okay, and then if you capture the

14 emissions from that, then wow, it’s carbon

15 negative.

16 A lot of science has come through since

17 2010, when that study was done in Massachusetts

18 and many, many, many studies have indicated what,

19 you know, have confirmed those results that the

20 overall emissions of carbon will exceed fossil

21 fuels by decades to over a century. And one of

22 the positive things in the 1.5 report, I know

23 most people found it pretty gloomy, we were

24 pretty excited because not only did it seem

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2 achievable that we could actually get to 1.5

3 emissions if we took all these steps, that it was

4 doable, that the technology was there, that the

5 goals were not that impossible.

6 But also when they channeled, they look

7 at four different pathways to getting there, one

8 of those pathways actually involves no biomass

9 combustion. One of those pathways, and there’s an

10 attachment here that I included in the packet,

11 our post, the IPCC’s Recipe for a Livable Planet,

12 Grow Trees Don’t Burn Them. One of those pathways

13 called for reducing bio-energy emissions down to

14 2010 levels, and just really focusing on

15 protecting our natural forests and restoring

16 forests.

17 That’s pretty incredible, that’s a

18 pretty big move in the scientific community that

19 this was even legitimized by the IPCC as a viable

20 pathway. So that’s, you know, that’s where we

21 believe this state should go. We understand that

22 the forest community has jobs and workers and

23 they’re struggling with various impacts in their

24 industry, but burning trees, counting them as

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2 renewable energy and pretending the carbon

3 emissions don’t exist is not the solution.

4 There may be better ways of addressing

5 them and certainly forests should be valued for

6 all of their ecological values that they offer

7 not just in terms of species, habitat and water

8 purification and air quality purification, but

9 also further carbon sequestration.

10 I’m sure I missed some of the things I

11 wanted to say but you know, I guess the last

12 thing was the co-pollutant issue. Just as these

13 are more polluting than fossil fuels, including

14 coal for carbon dioxide admissions, they’re also

15 the same way for the co-pollutants, especially

16 PM2.5. And I won’t go into details about just how

17 bad PM2.5 is for public health. So with that, I

18 will wrap it up, other than if there is anything

19 we can do to provide more information to this

20 committee as they move forward, we’d happy to

21 provide it. Thank you very much. [applause]

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

23 very much. Eric Weltman, senior organizer, Food

24 and Water Watch.

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2 MR. ERIC WELTMAN, SENIOR ORGANIZER, FOOD

3 & WATER WATCH: That’s me. Again, my name is is

4 Eric Waltman. I’m a Brooklyn based senior

5 organizer with Food & Water Watch on behalf of

6 Food & Water Watch’s over 120,000 New York

7 supporters, we are grateful for the opportunity

8 to testify regarding state policies necessary to

9 prevent climate change.

10 On Wednesday evening, we received the

11 tremendous news that the Cuomo Administration had

12 denied the Williams Companies a permit for

13 constructing a fracked gas pipeline under New

14 York Harbor. [applause] It was an incredible hard

15 fought victory. However, the company is being

16 allowed to resubmit its application. It was a

17 stark reminder that New York has a long way to go

18 towards moving off fossil fuels. Over five years

19 since the ban on fracking, we are contending with

20 an onslaught of fracking infrastructure,

21 pipelines and power plants that transport and

22 burn fracked gas. We’ve stopped Williams for now

23 but in Dover Plains, a massive fracked gas power

24 plant is under construction while we are trying

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2 to stop another fracked gas power plant in

3 Newburgh.

4 We’re in a hole and we’re digging it

5 deeper. We need legislation as bold and ambitious

6 as the sign says it must be. First it’s

7 imperative that New York transition to 100

8 percent renewal energy by 2030. Second, we must

9 ban any new fossil fuel infrastructure. These two

10 crucial policies are contained within the OFF

11 Fossil Fuels Act, Assembly Bill number 3565,

12 sponsored by Assembly Member William Colton and

13 they should be, they must be part of any climate

14 change legislation that is passed.

15 That said, there are many elements of

16 the Climate and Community Protection Act that we

17 fully embrace and support. The bill places

18 environmental justice front and center and puts a

19 priority in providing substantial funding to low

20 income communities and communities of color that

21 bear the brunt of climate change. The labor

22 provisions are especially strong and crucially,

23 it codifies what before were simply aspirational

24 goals into law.

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2 And that last point, however, we urge

3 the legislature to go further. New York must

4 guarantee the right for citizens to legally

5 enforce these climate goals and state and local

6 agencies must be required to adhere to the

7 climate plan. Any legislation is the product of

8 negotiation. And our hope is that what emerges

9 from the discussion and the debate over the next

10 few weeks is a bill that’s stronger, not weaker

11 than the CCPA.

12 On that note, the main criticism of the

13 CCPA is that it doesn’t match the pace that the

14 science says we must move off fossil fuels. It’s

15 becoming increasingly clear that we cannot

16 postpone a full transition until the middle of

17 the century. Simply put, 2050 is too late. The

18 most recent IPC’s report established 2050 as the

19 goal for global greenhouse gas emissions to reach

20 zero. But the United States must slash emissions

21 much faster if there’s any hope of reaching zero

22 globally by that year.

23 In the United States New York stands

24 uniquely positioned politically and economically

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2 to lead the way. The science is unambiguous. We

3 must do more and we must do it faster. The OFF

4 Fossil Fuels Act establishes a timeline of 2030

5 to move completely off fossil fuels. That year is

6 also the target date in the federal Green New

7 Deal proposal by New York’s own Alexandria

8 Ocasio-Cortez. If we’re serious about the scale

9 of the crisis that climate change poses, we must

10 adopt this deadline for New York.

11 It’s also imperative that we not rely on

12 plans focused on so-called carbon neutrality.

13 These plans invariably lead to offsets that

14 justify emissions and greenhouse gases and that

15 promote dirty and unsustainable biofuels, nuclear

16 power and carbon capture sequestration. Rather,

17 we should mandate a comprehensive approach to

18 climate change that moves us off fossil fuels to

19 renewable energy.

20 We stand ready to work with you. I’ll

21 finally note Mr. Chairman, I’m going to leave a

22 flyer about a proposed power plant in the

23 Meadowlands, in New Jersey, that would provide

24 all of its power to New York City, the Cuomo

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2 Administration has the authority to stop it and

3 we must demand that they do so. Thank you.

4 [applause]

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

6 Rachel Goodgal, 350 NYC.

7 MS. RACHEL GOODGAL, 350 NYC: Hello. My

8 name is Rachel Goodgal. I’m a member of 350 NYC.

9 We’re a local grassroots affiliate of 350.Org

10 working to solve the climate crisis. Most of my

11 points are very on par with Eric and this whole

12 panel so I’ll be brief. I am here today because

13 scientists have been telling politicians about

14 climate change for longer than I have been alive

15 but we haven’t yet had the political will to rise

16 to the challenge.

17 I’m here today because the IPCC, as

18 we’ve heard, tells us we have a decade to half

19 our carbon emissions and until around 2050, maybe

20 earlier, to get to net zero worldwide in order to

21 limit warming to 1.5 and avoid climate

22 catastrophe.

23 So obviously, New York can’t solve this

24 crisis alone. We have a few options. We’ve made

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2 it clear that we’re not taking the option of

3 giving up so that’s great. We could take the

4 option of getting carbon free by 2050 and say

5 we’ve done our part and then do our best to adapt

6 to the increasing impacts of climate change on

7 our citizens. Or we can choose to lead. New York

8 is not a middle of the pack kind of place. New

9 York is one of the richest states in the nation

10 that contributed by far the most to the crisis.

11 New York is a place for innovators, for dreamers

12 and for people who get things done. And New York

13 is a place where we draw upon our diverse and

14 unique backgrounds and skills and create progress

15 together.

16 The CCPA has a lot of value. We’ve heard

17 about it today. It shows our will to mitigate and

18 adapt to climate change, it rightly focuses on

19 the need for quality employment and support for

20 workers who transition to a clean economy and on

21 plans to end the legacy of pollution that the

22 fossil fuel that placed on low income communities

23 and communities of color around our state and

24 those provisions are vital and they should be

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2 strengthened.

3 But a 2050 goal is not bold, it’s barely

4 passable and we can do much better. We have the

5 resources, the will and thus the obligation to be

6 a model for the world. It’s our moral imperative

7 to rise to this challenge. We must mandate 100

8 percent renewable electricity and net zero

9 anthropogenic emissions across sectors in New

10 York in 2030. We must say no to all new fossil

11 fuel power plants and start taking them offline

12 now, not a generation from now. We must ban all

13 new pipelines and infrastructure that locks in

14 the production of fracked gas outside of New York

15 State. We banned the production of fracked gas in

16 New York State because it obviously has horrible

17 climate and health detriments.

18 So if we take these steps, New Yorkers

19 will win, we’ll win, we’ll have better health

20 outcomes, reduce coal pollutants from vehicles

21 and power plants, we’ll spur innovation and

22 create jobs and we’ll win because we’ll provide a

23 path that others can follow which could have huge

24 awesome impacts mitigating the climate crisis.

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2 Thank you. [applause]

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Questions?

4 I just, I would like Laura, for you to stay in

5 touch with us on the biomass issue. You’ve given

6 us more than we can digest in the time here

7 today. And I thank you for that. But you are

8 particularly knowledgeable in this area. I have

9 the testimony from someone from earlier that says

10 -- part of the testimony reads, specifically

11 forest biomass used for energy can bolster energy

12 production, provide jobs and promote

13 environmental stewardship by improving air, soil

14 and water quality. I would note that that’s very

15 different from what you told us. And so please

16 let us be in touch.

17 MS. HAIGHT: Okay.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

19 very much.

20 MS. HAIGHT: Thank you.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

22 Our next panel Chelsea Turner, climate justice

23 organizer of UPROSE and Jason Gomez instead of

24 Chelsea Turner. And then Edith Kantrowitz, board

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2 member of United for Action and Peter Savio, a

3 volunteer with Citizens Climate Lobby New York

4 and then Nella Pineda-Marcon, a registered nurse

5 and director at large of the New York State

6 Nurses Association. My two colleagues have to

7 leave. They do so reluctantly but I want to say

8 thank you to both Dan O’Donnell and Barbara

9 Lifton [applause]. They are not only with us this

10 whole day, but are with us on this issue and are

11 an important part of the Assembly’s forward

12 momentum and just I want to say thank you to each

13 of you.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: Thank you,

15 Steve.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER O’DONNELL: Thank you,

17 Steve.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER LIFTON: We have a great

19 chair, don’t we? Yay, Steve Englebright.

20 [applause]

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Who would

22 like to begin? Please. State your name for the

23 record.

24 MS. NELLA PINEDA-MARCON, RN, DIRECTOR AT

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2 LARGE, NEW YORK STATE NURSES ASSOCIATION: My

3 name is Nella Pineda-Marcon. I’m a nurse at Mount

4 Sinai, St. Lukes and Mount Sinai West. I am a

5 proud union member and climate activist. I am on

6 the Board of Directors of New York State Nurses

7 Association and co-chair of our Climate Justice

8 and Disaster Relief Committee. NYSNA is the

9 largest nurses union in New York State with over

10 43,000 members.

11 I have seen firsthand the massive

12 destruction caused by climate change when I went

13 on a medical mission with NYSNA to the

14 Philippines in 2013 in the aftermath of Typhoon

15 Haiyan. This trip had a great impact on me and

16 helped propel me into the climate justice work I

17 do today. As nurses on the frontlines of patient

18 care, we see firsthand every day the destruction

19 that climate change and climate justice issues

20 have on the health of our patients. The massive

21 amount of pollutants that are being pumped into

22 our city air are causing an increasing in chronic

23 asthma conditions in our most vulnerable

24 communities.

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2 These communities are also

3 disproportionately faced with contaminated water

4 supplies and tainted soil and they are the ones

5 that are usually hit the hardest by catastrophic

6 events such as Hurricane Sandy. If this isn’t a

7 public health crisis, I don’t know what it is,

8 but it gets worse.

9 The recently released Intergovernmental

10 Panel on Climate Change found that current trends

11 will lead to food shortages, wildfires, drought,

12 floods and other extreme weather events with no

13 documented historic precedent within the next 20

14 years unless major reductions in greenhouse

15 emissions happen within the next decade.

16 We nurses are healers and have a duty to

17 serve the public. We are the ones who see the end

18 results of natural disasters made so much worse

19 by our own hand. We are the ones who see the end

20 results of environmental injustices that we have

21 created. According to the World Health

22 Organization, air pollution is the number one

23 public health problem in the world. The numbers

24 of sick and dead are virtually incalculable.

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2 But in all destruction, there is some

3 light. We have all the tools at our disposal to

4 start changing the tide. We have the ability to

5 do something right here and right now. This

6 starts with the passage of the Climate and

7 Community Protection Act and its mandate of 100

8 percent renewable energy in our state by 2050

9 with 40 percent investment targeted for

10 environmentally vulnerable low income

11 communities.

12 We must insure that we are investing if

13 those very communities that have consistently

14 been the ones to bear the brunt of pollution in

15 our society and the effects of climate change. We

16 must get this done to begin the work that all of

17 us know we have to undertake. There is no dodging

18 this bullet. There is no more putting things off.

19 This bill needs to get passed and we just cannot

20 afford to water it down. The clock is ticking.

21 We are seriously concerned about the

22 CCPA being changed to have it set a carbon

23 neutrality standard, rather than a zero emissions

24 standard. Carbon offsets do not reduce pollution

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2 in our most vulnerable communities. It only kicks

3 the can down the road and does nothing to solve

4 the public health crisis before us today. In many

5 cases, carbon offset programs are poorly

6 regulated and do not actually take carbon out of

7 the air. This does nothing to solve the problem

8 my sick and dying patients are facing right now.

9 We must take on the issue of climate

10 change head on and pass this credible piece of

11 legislation. We owe this to our patients, our

12 communities, our families and our future

13 generations. We owe this to ourselves. Thank you

14 for this opportunity to stand before you today.

15 There’s no time to waste. Let’s get things done.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

17 very much. [applause] Your thoughtful comments ar

18 so very much appreciated.

19 MS. EDITH KANTROWITZ, BOARD MEMBER,

20 UNITED FOR ACTION: Hi. My name is Edie

21 Kantrowitz. I’m an environmental activist with

22 United for Action, a local grassroots

23 organization and with several other environmental

24 organizations and I would like to thank you for

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2 giving me the opportunity to speak today. And I

3 would really like to thank Chairman Englebright

4 and all the other assembly members for the

5 leadership that you are showing on this, all the

6 hard work and I can tell that there’s really a

7 passion there and it gives me some hope.

8 And I have to say that I’m just a

9 grassroots volunteer so I’m not as deep into the

10 weeds as some of the other people who have spoken

11 here today so eloquently and so I kind of want to

12 apologize for that, but I think it’s important

13 for all citizens to be involved and for all of us

14 to speak out. So I just wanted to come down and

15 well basically nag you, because I think you are

16 doing great, but you need to do even greater.

17 Because when I think about the climate

18 emergency we are now facing, it kind of seems

19 almost impossible to find something to say about

20 this situation that we find ourselves in that

21 hasn’t already been said. But I think most

22 important is that we have to keep emphasizing the

23 urgency over and over and over again. And then

24 yet even that starts to sound like something

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2 we’ve heard before. It’s urgent it is an

3 emergency we only have ten years, we only have

4 eight years. Yeah, well, you know, those of us

5 who are activists, those of us who are

6 scientists, those of us engaged with public

7 policy we’re only too aware of what this urgency

8 means.

9 But for the average person, the climate

10 catastrophe may seem like something for the

11 future, something where we still have time. But

12 we don’t. We have been lucky here in New York

13 City. After Super Storm Sandy, we have not really

14 had another major weather event that interrupts

15 life as usual. We might see that it’s hotter than

16 it used to be or wetter than it used to be and

17 that some things are getting worse. And some of

18 us might go to a hearing like this one or to a

19 hearing about storm surge barriers, but many

20 people are still not quite getting it.

21 So this is not just a problem for our

22 children and our grandchildren. This is affecting

23 us today. Now, those who live in California,

24 where they’ve had horrendous wildfires or those

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2 who live in places like Texas and Louisiana and

3 Puerto Rico and the American South and the

4 American Midwest, where there’ve been horrific

5 storms that turns people’s lives around, they

6 will understand this differently.

7 And the same goes for people in other

8 parts of the world, in Africa, in India and even

9 in Europe and places where people have been

10 experiencing extreme weather. In fact, when I

11 look at Weather.Com it seems like almost every

12 day a different part of the world is experiencing

13 extreme and truly tragic weather events. Homes

14 and lives are being destroyed.

15 So this is not the future folks this is

16 now. The ice caps are melting now. The seas are

17 already rising now. We are having a tremendous,

18 unprecedented extinction of species now. Flooding

19 is increasing. Droughts are happening. People are

20 having to migrate, and it’s going to come closer

21 and closer and start affecting us in ways we

22 maybe can’t even imagine yet or maybe don’t

23 really even want to imagine. I mean can you

24 really get your head around what it would mean to

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2 have food shortages here in New York City? Can

3 you picture that?

4 So it makes me think of something that

5 happened a few days after the 9/11 attacks. I was

6 in midtown in a bank branch, trying to use the

7 ATM and all of a sudden, a cry of panic goes up

8 and there was a bomb scare and so suddenly,

9 people ran out of the bank including me and

10 people were running down the street. We were

11 running for our lives, literally. So fortunately,

12 that one was just a scare. But the climate

13 emergency, on the other hand, this is the real

14 thing. And so we have to really run and take

15 action, just as if we were running for our lives

16 because we are running for our lives.

17 So what does this mean in terms of New

18 York State? We have the opportunity and the

19 responsibility to set an example for others. Our

20 state is a climate leader and we can be proud of

21 the climate initiatives that have been taken by

22 New York State and by New York City. And by this

23 Assembly Committee and I know that you know your

24 intentions are so strong that I almost feel

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2 guilty nagging you, but I think we have to keep

3 nagging each other. And we have to get real.

4 We have to recognize that the scientists

5 are saying that even if we meet the Paris Accord

6 goals, which at this point, we’re very far from

7 doing, even if we did meet them we would still be

8 in deep, deep trouble. So we have to go as far as

9 we can as fast as we can, and then we have to

10 take it up a notch and go even further and do

11 faster. And there is simply no other way if we’re

12 going to survive. We have to run for our lives.

13 We have to somehow put aside our concerns about

14 the political realities, the economic realities

15 and recognize that there’s a scientific reality

16 which is the bottom line. And that somehow

17 everything else will have to maneuver itself

18 around that if we’re going to survive.

19 And I know people have differences of

20 opinion about what role offsets might play in

21 that, but we have to look beyond those

22 differences and we have to think about what’s the

23 most and the quickest that we can achieve and in

24 the way that’s going to be best for everybody.

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2 Right now, we need to get some very comprehensive

3 climate legislation for New York State and we

4 need to make sure that we are on 100 percent

5 renewables for our electric power by 2030, even

6 sooner than that would be better. We absolutely

7 have to do this and we also need to absolutely

8 make sure that we stop using fossil fuels and

9 stop building fossil fuel infrastructure. That

10 must be in the legislation.

11 Okay, there’s been discussion about

12 biomass. The way that I look at it, it comes down

13 to something very simple. It’s called don’t burn

14 anything. Period. [applause] We’ve got solar,

15 we’ve got wind, we’ve got geothermal, we’ve got

16 appropriate scale hydropower, so don’t burn

17 anything, period. Okay. We need to make sure that

18 we switch to heating our homes with heat pumps,

19 that we electrify the transportation sector. We

20 need to make big changes in how we deal with

21 manufacturing and in how we deal with food and

22 agriculture. And we know that some of this still

23 needs to be worked out. We also need to stop

24 using so many plastics. And we need to make sure

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2 that every sector of our economy becomes

3 sustainable and fast.

4 And I also have to really thank Dr. Hang

5 for reminding me again of what I had even

6 forgotten, which is we need to put a tremendous

7 emphasis on our conservation, efficiency and

8 demand reduction because that’s a very big piece

9 of it. But we also need to make sure that we do

10 all of this without using nuclear energy, which

11 is not only deadly dangerous but it’s also an

12 emissions producer.

13 So we also need to make sure, as

14 everyone has spoken about today, that there’s a

15 just transition so that people won’t have to

16 worry about losing their jobs as these changes

17 are implemented so the communities won’t have to

18 worry about a loss of income and so that people

19 won’t have to say, oh yeah, well there’s going to

20 be new green jobs but they’ll go to that 22-year-

21 old guy who has the training that I don’t, you

22 know, so we have to make sure that people are

23 getting the training that they need and the job

24 retooling they need.

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2 And at all times, we have to keep

3 environmental justice as our touchstone, that it

4 stays in the forefront of our vision so the

5 voices of disadvantaged communities are heard, so

6 that they’re given a leading role in making sure

7 that changes don’t have an adverse effect on

8 their communities and so that we don’t repeat the

9 mistakes and keep perpetrating the injustices.

10 And then beyond all that, it’s not

11 enough to just stop making emissions. We will

12 also need the programs that reforestation and

13 regenerative agriculture to actually sequester

14 and drawdown carbon dioxide in a way that is

15 healthy for our biosphere, in a way that isn’t

16 just pie in the sky technology, tinkering around

17 and maybe it’ll happen, maybe it won’t, and maybe

18 it’ll happen and it will make worse problems. But

19 you know the best carbon sequestration comes from

20 trees.

21 So the bills we pass this year will be

22 just historic. We’ll probably need quite a few

23 bills and quite a few mandates as we said 2019,

24 2020, 2021 going on and on, in order to fully

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2 implement a real Green New Deal for New York

3 State, one that could begin to give us a shot of

4 surviving into a livable future. But we have to

5 go all out and start doing it now as fast as we

6 can, not to wait a second longer. Well, I know

7 you’ve only got four weeks. So we got to do

8 something quickly.

9 We have to set the goals that may seem

10 unrealistic, we have to set an example and we

11 have to change our world because our world is

12 going to change whether we like it or not. And so

13 we have to make sure that we’re moving in the

14 flow with those changes so we can have a livable

15 future. We have to do it with the urgency and the

16 single mindedness that Americans and New Yorkers

17 has brought to the effort that we saw during

18 World War II, because the climate emergency is

19 our really World War III and we are fighting for

20 our survival. Thank you. [applause]

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Edith, you

22 are awesome.

23 MS. KANTROWITZ: Well, thank you.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I am in

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2 awe of your presentation. Thank you for bringing

3 your thoughts.

4 MS. KANTROWITZ: I usually hate that

5 word awesome and for the first time I’m very

6 honored.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I didn’t

8 say awesome, I said I am in awe.

9 MS. KANTROWITZ: I’m very honored, thank

10 you.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: But you’re

12 so articulate and you’re so on point and I just

13 want to say again, thank you.

14 MR. PETER SAVIO, VOLUNTEER, CITIZENS

15 CLIMATE LOBBY, NY: Good afternoon. My name is

16 Peter Savio. I am with the Citizens Climate Lobby

17 or CCL. We really appreciate you for hosting this

18 meeting, Chairman Englebright and Steven and

19 Jordan for staying this long day and more panels

20 to follow. So thank you. This is very impressive.

21 The diversity of people here, the diversity of

22 voices and the fact that you are listening is so

23 welcome.

24 Just a quick note on who is the Citizens

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2 Climate Lobby, we have over 400 chapters in the

3 U.S. The primary focus is on a fee and dividend

4 approach at a federal level. So in other words, a

5 price on carbon that gradually increases over

6 time. There’s a bill in D.C. that’s got 37

7 cosponsors, we think it has a lot of promise.

8 However as has been acknowledged

9 earlier, there isn’t a lot of hope in terms of

10 getting things done in D.C. in the near term. And

11 we absolutely support the actions being

12 undertaken in New York and we absolutely are

13 impressed and particularly with you Chairman

14 Englebright as well as Senator Kaminsky and

15 Governor Cuomo. The CCPA and the climate

16 leadership backed offer an incredible advanced

17 blueprint for how we address this issue and we

18 applaud you for it.

19 Climate disruption issues, challenges

20 and risks are multifaceted, pervasive and have

21 not arisen overnight. Systematic policy solutions

22 must reflect a multifaceted and robust portfolio

23 of responses, have clear achievable goals and

24 outcomes and the key is speed and scale. We

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2 really, we’ve heard a lot about it today. We need

3 speed and scale.

4 And we have a few suggestions, many of

5 them are aligned with the panel that spoke

6 earlier today. So the CCL has a lot of -- we

7 independently came to some of the same positions

8 that NRDC and Julie from the League of

9 Conservation Voters and others have mentioned

10 earlier today. So what that means primarily is

11 that the things that we have to add are -- so I

12 will not repeat all of those that are in the

13 written document.

14 But what I will emphasize is a few

15 differences we have and the primary differences

16 and what we think would be helpful to add to the

17 bill, we appreciate what Walter Hang brought up.

18 Energy efficiency is nearly always the least cost

19 option, results in the most jobs and the largest

20 reduction in carbon emissions per dollar spent.

21 Increased levels of efficiency achievement also

22 reduce the baseline against which renewables

23 goals are calculated. Remember, renewables goals

24 are a percentage of total sales if efficiency can

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2 bring down total sales, that makes renewables

3 targets more achievable and more affordable.

4 We recommend that legislation, that the

5 CCPA include early action to codify our energy

6 efficiency targets. Right now, they’re executive

7 action and we applaud the fact that the Assembly

8 and Senate are working with the governor to

9 codify essential elements of renewables goals. We

10 think it’s also essential to codify energy

11 efficiency goals and we’ve provided some language

12 on that front.

13 We believe that from the perspective

14 that energy efficiency is so cost-effective, we

15 need to modernize our codes and standards. There

16 are six to ten other states that are much further

17 ahead than we are. We have a choice on where we

18 want to be. But codes and standards offer an

19 excellent opportunity for all new construction

20 and all new appliance purchases.

21 And then lastly, the existing executive

22 goals primarily apply to the investor-owned

23 utilities. We believe that a similar level of

24 goals should apply to the public authorities,

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2 NYPA and LIPA as well.

3 So we think those steps can be early

4 actions. With the urgency of climate change, with

5 the risks and the threats and the emergency

6 that’s under discussion, we think we need early

7 action. We think the process issues that the CCPA

8 envisions is essential to get broader public

9 input, to have a stakeholder process, to do

10 further roadmapping. But we’re concerned that

11 that could take some time to build the ideas and

12 formulate the ideas and we think these early

13 actions in energy efficiency are very essential

14 steps that are off the shelf items that are

15 already done in other states and we can provide

16 language if it’s helpful to help advance that

17 here.

18 We also think that climate legislation

19 should include early action that addresses

20 exposure in communities that are most impacted by

21 air pollution. One way to do that, we have three

22 suggests. One way to do that is a minimum

23 percentage of the energy efficiency achievements

24 in the residential sector should be delivered in

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2 residences of disadvantaged customers and that

3 could be higher than 20 percent. Massachusetts

4 has a 25 percent, California has a 25 percent. We

5 believe 20 to 30 percent is appropriate as a

6 minimum percentage, so that utility residential

7 customers get the benefits that they’re paying in

8 their bills, but in most cases the energy

9 efficiency programs don’t target the low income

10 customers.

11 A second suggestion we have is that

12 public transit buses be purchased at an

13 accelerated rated rate, in other words, switching

14 to electrified transit. Right now there are ten

15 electric buses on the road in New York City, ten

16 electric buses, straight electric. There are a

17 good number of hybrids, there are natural gas

18 buses but only ten electric. We would argue that

19 given lung level exposure to pollutants and

20 emissions from both the diesels and the hybrids

21 that disadvantaged areas should to be the first

22 to get the expansion of electric buses and then

23 we set a goal that at least 40 percent of public

24 transit buses serving disadvantaged communities

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2 be electric buses by 2030, sooner if possible.

3 We think that starts to address the

4 transit sector. It’s got a lot of carbon benefits

5 and it addresses the disadvantaged communities.

6 Those are the types of strategies that we think

7 are essential where we can actually have

8 economic, environmental and environmental justice

9 benefits in one fell swoop. We also think it is

10 essential to task D.C. and NYSERDA to develop and

11 implement, in consultation with the Climate

12 Action Council and Disadvantaged Communities

13 Working Group community air monitoring plans.

14 Right now, we have gaps, significant

15 gaps in information about where the point sources

16 of pollution are, where the worst pollution is.

17 We do applaud the Assembly for A1779 and we think

18 that that high local environmental impact zone

19 legislation and the companion senate bill is

20 essential. But we think the data needs to be

21 brought together and we certainly are pressing

22 the governor to sign this bill, given that the

23 Assembly and Senate have passed it.

24 If we want to understand the

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2 disproportionate burdens that disadvantaged

3 communities face, the data in that bill and the

4 data that can be gathered by DEC and NYSERDA can

5 help influence where and how the money is spent

6 most effectively to really address the health

7 issues that we’re talking about.

8 In terms of goals, we would argue that

9 the some of the goals in the bill could be

10 strengthened, so we would argue, as several

11 others have, that 70 percent of electricity used

12 in New York be produced from carbon free sources

13 by 2030. And then in terms of greenhouse gas

14 emissions targets, we would argue that priority

15 be placed on achieving the targets, whatever the

16 target is, if it’s 80 percent, 90 percent, 100

17 percent, that priority be placed on achieving

18 those emissions reductions in communities

19 burdened by these high exposures to pollution.

20 The earlier questions that came up

21 around an absolute zero carbon or a net zero

22 carbon accounting for offsets, the Citizens

23 Climate Lobby is aligned with others that have

24 spoken earlier. We believe that a twin goal of an

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2 80 percent reduction in actual carbon from a 2020

3 baseline, in other words a more aggressive

4 baseline that’s being considered, an 80 percent

5 reduction from a 2020 baseline, an actual

6 reduction across the economy by 2050 is the

7 appropriate target. We believe that the remainder

8 should be eligible for meeting that remaining 20

9 percent reduction through offsets.

10 We are in absolute agreement with the

11 earlier speakers, that we have experience doing

12 this, that the RGGI requirements that the offsets

13 be local, that the offsets be additive and that

14 measurement and verification be serious and

15 reliable. We think will result in very few, very

16 limited, very targeted offsets and we think that

17 as we said earlier, a portfolio approach is

18 necessary.

19 Earlier discussions, Mr. Chairman, you

20 were asking questions about the makeup of the

21 Climate Action Council. What we advocate is, in

22 effect, a hybrid between the Climate Leadership

23 Act and the CCPA. We would argue that more

24 manageable group than a 20-member group may be

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2 more appropriate and that we can have the

3 subcommittees feed information in. We’re

4 concerned that a 20-member group, it may be

5 challenging to act quickly to address the

6 complexity of this challenge. And we would argue

7 that, we advocate that it be chaired by NYSERDA

8 and DEC.

9 In closing, we urge that the work to

10 date developing climate legislation not be

11 wasted. We absolutely respect the work and effort

12 over years to move this forward. We would argue

13 that we please not let the perfect be the enemy

14 of the good as you have stated, Mr. Chairman,

15 that this is going to need additional attention

16 down the road. But we have an opportunity this

17 session with the amount of work the Senate, the

18 Assembly and the Governor have put in. We think

19 there’s strong common ground and we really hope

20 the remaining issues can be resolved.

21 We respectfully request openness to

22 strengthening the CCPA. We’re willing to offer

23 more specifics as helpful. We think that

24 pragmatic compromise around how the goals are

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2 implemented would be helpful. So we the bottom

3 line is climate legislation this session and a

4 sustainable future for New Yorkers is what we’re

5 supporting and we very much applaud the work to

6 date. We hope that these recommendations put wind

7 in your sails for getting there. Thank you very

8 much. [applause]

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

10 for your testimony. Jason Gomez is speaking as a

11 climate justice voice for UPROSE. Welcome.

12 MR. JASON GOMEZ ON BEHALF OF CHELSEA

13 TURNER, CLIMATE JUSTICE ORGANIZER, UPROSE: Thank

14 you. Good evening, Chairman Englebright. I’d like

15 to thank the members of the Assembly for joining

16 us today. My name is Jason Gomez. I’m a climate

17 justice organizer with UPROSE. UPROSE is

18 Brooklyn’s oldest Latino community based

19 organization located in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. We

20 are a multiracial, intergenerational and

21 nationally recognized organization organizing and

22 leading on environmental justice and social

23 justice issues. Since 2006, we’ve intensified our

24 focus on climate justice, social cohesion and the

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2 adaptation of Sunset Park to the impacts of

3 climate change. This includes a focus on

4 community resilience and building and advocating

5 for a just transition.

6 For years, we’ve stressed the fact that

7 low income communities and communities of color

8 are disproportionately burdened by fossil fuel

9 monopoly. Polluting infrastructures and toxic

10 industries are clustered in low income

11 communities of color, leading to increased

12 asthma, cancer rates and other public health

13 concerns. Sunset Park, a predominately working

14 class immigrant community of color with a poverty

15 rate of over 30 percent is home to three peaker

16 plants that cause tremendous strain when

17 overlapped with other polluting infrastructure

18 that also live in Sunset Park.

19 Sunset Park is the city’s largest

20 significant maritime industrial area, a

21 designated industrial business zone and a

22 brownfield opportunity area. Families literally

23 live, play and study within toxic industrial

24 activities. The Gowanus Expressway also

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2 contributes to significant impacts by

3 transporting over 200,000 cars and 25,000 trucks

4 through the neighborhood on a daily basis.

5 To add another layer, climate change

6 exacerbates existing threats to frontline

7 environmental justice communities, introducing

8 new risks and vulnerabilities. Low income New

9 Yorkers are more likely to live within flood

10 zones, housing stock inequities, poor access to

11 public transportation and other social and

12 resource inequities that make recovery more

13 challenging for them.

14 For example, in Sunset Park and

15 waterfront industrial neighborhoods, storm surge

16 presents a threat through the release of toxic

17 chemicals that not only seep into the soil,

18 waterways and public parks but also into the

19 lungs of our children and elders.

20 One of the most important aspects of the

21 CCPA is the mandate to allocate 40 percent of

22 Clean Energy Funds to frontline environmental

23 justice communities. This makes this bill the

24 boldest climate legislation in the country, since

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2 it addresses some of the systemic inequities that

3 have caused low income communities and

4 communities of color to be disproportionately

5 burdened by the extractive economy. These

6 communities need the resources to build local

7 solutions for a just transition to renewable

8 economy.

9 A concrete example of projects that can

10 benefit from this fund is one of our current

11 energy justice projects called Sunset Park Solar.

12 UPROSE is developing New York’s first community

13 solar cooperative on the roof of the Brooklyn

14 Army Terminal, a building owned by Economic

15 Development Corporation on the Sunset Park

16 Waterfront. UPROSE is making history by building

17 a values based project that responds to community

18 vision for development on the industrial

19 waterfront that meets existing needs and shifts

20 us away from the use of fossil fuels.

21 The project will serve about 175

22 residents and small businesses, providing

23 subscribers with up to 20 percent in their

24 savings energy utility bills. It will also allow

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2 subscribers to own and manage the project through

3 the cooperative structure. A challenge of the

4 project has been securing funding. Since this is

5 a community-led project, funding is limited and

6 has pushed us to create partnerships to build

7 capacity and tap into the often limiting

8 resources of tax equity and philanthropy.

9 The CCPA will make funds available for

10 communities to actively lead, build and succeed

11 in developing community owned initiatives, such

12 as Sunset Park Solar. This is a real, on the

13 ground example that will pave the way for

14 communities throughout the state to actively

15 participate and build New York’s just transition.

16 We are extremely concerned that the

17 governor is pushing for a carbon neutral economy

18 instead of 100 percent renewable energy economy.

19 Burning fossil fuels doesn’t just emits carbon,

20 it emits co-pollutants and toxins that cause

21 asthma, smog, respiratory, cardiac disease and

22 other health outcomes in communities like Sunset

23 Park.

24 Climate policy that allows offsets

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2 without considering co-pollutants is racist.

3 Carbon neutrality perpetuates the systemic racism

4 and disproportionately burdens frontline

5 environmental justice communities. And I’m sure

6 this is not the kind of policy that this

7 committee and the government would want to

8 support.

9 In order to truly achieve climate

10 justice and address the climate crisis we must

11 cut pollution at the source. You should not allow

12 a peaker power plant in Sunset Park to offset its

13 carbon emissions by investing on a wind farm in

14 upstate New York while you allow Sunset Park

15 residents to keep breathing toxic air.

16 State leaders must do right by frontline

17 environmental justice communities by passing the

18 strongest possible version of the CCPA. It is a

19 piece of legislation that has been crafted with

20 equity and justice at its core to uplift

21 communities and commit to the emissions reduction

22 targets that are needed at this point in history.

23 On behalf of UPROSE and Sunset Park

24 community, I thank you for the opportunity to

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2 testify in favor of the Climate and Community

3 Protection Act. I urge you to make history by

4 building a healthy and just future for every New

5 Yorker and generations to come. You may reach me

6 at [email protected] or call 718-492-9307.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

8 so much for your testimony. I’m sure you speak

9 accurately for your entire community and it is

10 instructive to hear your words. Thank you very

11 much.

12 MR. GOMEZ: Thank you.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Edith, I

14 just want to reflect to where you began your

15 comments to us. You indicated that you weren’t a

16 professional speaker and apologized. I just want

17 you to know you spoke with knowledge, you’ve done

18 your homework. You have nothing to apologize for.

19 You are a professional speaker. Thank you.

20 [Applause] Professional quality to be a

21 professional, I suppose if you look it up in the

22 dictionary, it says you have to be paid for it.

23 Okay. But in terms of presentation it was superb.

24 Each of you has brought much to the hearing today

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2 and I have learned from each of you and I thank

3 you so very much. Thank you. Our next panel

4 Catherine McVay Hughes, board member of the

5 Financial District Neighborhood Association. Amy

6 Rosmarin, co-founder of Stop the Algonquin

7 Pipeline Expansion, Elizabeth Malone, program

8 manager Insurance and Resiliency Services of the

9 Neighborhood Housing Services of Brooklyn CDC.

10 Who would like to go first?

11 MS. CATHERINE MCVAY HUGHES, BOARD

12 MEMBER, FDNA (FINANCIAL DISTRICT NEIGHBORHOOD

13 ASSOCIATION): I would. Since my name is first on

14 the panel.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: So you are

16 Catherine McVay Hughes?

17 MS. HUGHES: Yes, thank you very much,

18 yes, Catherine McVay Hughes.

19 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: So,

20 please, the forum is yours.

21 MS. HUGHES: Thank you very much. First

22 I had good morning, then good afternoon, now I

23 will say good evening, so, Chair Englebright

24 thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name

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2 is Catherine McVay Hughes. I served 20 years on

3 Manhattan Community Board One. In case you don’t

4 know, you are in Community Board One now.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: I brought

6 my passport.

7 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: Okay. Great. You’re

8 surrounded by water on three sides.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: If you’ll

10 stamp it before I leave, I’ll be okay.

11 MS. MCVAY HUGHEST: We got the Hudson

12 River on the one side, the East River, which is

13 really a strait and the New York Estuary at the

14 southern tip. And half of that time, as chair and

15 vice-chair and helped to rebuild our community

16 after September 11th and then again after Super

17 Storm Sandy. I was appointed co-chair of the New

18 York Rising, a reconstruction program for

19 Southern Manhattan, and as you will recall, a lot

20 of communities did have New York Rising status

21 due to Hurricane Super Storm Sandy -- before

22 Super Storm Sandy which is Irene and Lee, so we

23 were just one of over four or five dozen

24 communities around the state. For the record, I

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2 have a Bachelor of Science degree in civil

3 engineering from Princeton University,

4 specializing in hydrogeology.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Awesome.

6 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: Yes. So, we can talk

7 a little science.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: We can

9 talk.

10 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: Yes. Today, I am

11 representing the Financial District Neighborhood

12 Association. The financial district is home to

13 roughly 50,000 residents and is the fourth

14 largest business district in the entire country.

15 So on your notice of the public hearing, the

16 subject was climate change and the purpose, the

17 purpose of this hearing is to examine how best to

18 address the impacts of climate change on the

19 communities and the workforce. So downtown, we

20 have the fourth largest business district in the

21 country.

22 As we approach the seventh anniversary

23 of Super Storm Sandy, we remember its devastating

24 impact on New York City, which has over 500 miles

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2 of shoreline. Sandy caused 48 deaths in New York,

3 including two drowning here, one in FiDi, and one

4 in Tribeca, just several blocks away, and I’ve

5 heard of a couple very close calls. Sandy also

6 did an estimated $71 billion in economic damage

7 in our region worth $19 billion in losses to New

8 York City while Sandy’s immediate impact, it

9 lasted only weeks, major infrastructure systems

10 including mass transit, electrical,

11 telecommunications systems, sustained lasting

12 damage some of which is not fixed today.

13 As you know, every weekend for the next

14 two years, the World Trade Center Pass Station is

15 being fixed, the underpass. The underpass loop is

16 still being fixed. The South Street Seaport

17 Museum is still recovering from the damage. Those

18 are just a handful of examples.

19 Resiliency in the face of sea level rise

20 and global climate change requires a multilayered

21 strategy which includes reducing sources of

22 greenhouse gas emissions by increasing energy

23 efficiency, such as the Gee retrofit proposed

24 earlier today and transitioning to renewable

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2 energy and adapting to changing conditions at our

3 waterfront edges in a combination with regional

4 storm surge gates.

5 FDNA, the Financial District

6 Neighborhood Association, supports the immediate

7 creation of the New York State Climate and

8 Community Protection Act, A3876, S2992. Three

9 recent significant scientific reports on the

10 impact of climate change by the United Nations,

11 we heard earlier, IPCC in October of 2018, then

12 another report by 13 federal agencies, the NCA4,

13 November 2019 (sic) and then most recently by the

14 New York City panel on climate change, the NPCCC3

15 on March 19th.

16 I just want to draw your attention. You

17 may not get to the footnote normally. But it

18 wasn’t really touched on in the last six and a

19 half hours of testimony. So footnote three into

20 one of the tools is the Antarctic Rapid Ice Melt

21 Scenario, which the PCC created to model the

22 effects of melting ice sheets on sea level rise

23 around New York City should emissions remain

24 high. There’s a physical plausibility toward the

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2 end of the century of sea levels rising faster

3 than previously anticipated, due to Antarctic ice

4 sheet destabilization.

5 And I’m sure you’re getting your Notify

6 NYC or your recent headlines. A recent CNN

7 headline as of just today, almost a fourth of the

8 West Antarctic is now, quote, unstable. So I just

9 wanted, in the discussions today, to bring that

10 to your attention.

11 Plus a recent report that carbon dioxide

12 in the earth’s atmosphere was measured at a

13 record high of 415 parts per million this past

14 Friday, confirmed the need to act now. Lower

15 Manhattan Shoreline is as exposed today as it was

16 for Sandy in 2012. As you can see from the

17 attached map, there has been no public

18 announcement of any interim flood protection plan

19 known as IFPM plan for roughly half a mile from

20 Wall Street to the tip of The Battery. So that’s

21 on the map attached.

22 FDNA looks forward to the beginning of

23 the reengagement in the Lower Manhattan Coastal

24 Resiliency, known as LMCR, Financial District and

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2 Seaport Climate Resilient master plan which was

3 announced by the city two months ago. I’m just

4 going into detail so you understand what we’re

5 struggling with to get resiliency, block by block

6 on our waterfront. That none of the big you has

7 started. And so what you see here is aside from

8 the funding of the two-year study, there is no

9 funding for the implementation from Brooklyn

10 Bridge, through to The Battery, so the $10

11 billion number that was thrown around for

12 resiliency protection, none of that is available.

13 So I just want to remind people how

14 expensive it is to handle climate, this climate

15 crisis at our shorelines. Now, if you look

16 further in the map, just talking about a couple

17 miles of resiliency, you have the Two Bridges,

18 which is less than a mile. That has, you know,

19 $176 million federal funding, $27 million of city

20 funding for a total of $203 million.

21 Then, the project you’ve heard about is

22 roughly a two mile project for the Eastside

23 Coastal Resiliency Project. That has federal

24 money of $335 million and after three different

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2 additional allotments from this city, it’s now a

3 total package of $1.4 billion to cover resiliency

4 at the waterfront of 2.4 miles.

5 Down at The Battery, the park, not

6 Battery Park City, New York City DEC plus New

7 York City Parks, plus the Battery Park City

8 Authority, plus the Battery Conservancy, we have

9 a total of $165 million. But we haven’t seen a

10 final public plan for that. The Battery Park City

11 Authority will be issuing $134 million green bond

12 for roughly a little over a mile at the Battery.

13 But north of Stuyvesant High School, Tribeca,

14 there’s no plan, no funding.

15 But more importantly, underneath the

16 color graph, the Eastside Coastal Resiliency Plan

17 is being built up to a 16.5 feet above the

18 average sea level. Here, we see Two Bridges is at

19 seven feet, Lower Eastside is eight feet and

20 exactly the same as the FiDi Seaport area at

21 eight feet. We had seven feet of water at the

22 seaport area and a water street. And you see

23 Hudson Yards, the Battery, Tribeca is 9.5 and the

24 World Trade Center, we remember seeing those

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2 devastating pictures when the site wasn’t

3 completed. So this -- I just to dimensionalize

4 the crisis of the problem here in lower

5 Manhattan.

6 So the FDNA supports the plan to

7 construct a layered defense of local seawalls and

8 a regional New York Harbor storm gate system to

9 address future storm surges. Local perimeter,

10 land based sea walls are needed to provide

11 protection from rising sea levels of the decades

12 and centuries ahead and huge storm surges are

13 best addressed by a layered defense built around

14 a regional sea gate system that vastly shortens

15 the coastline, roughly 1,000 miles, down to less

16 10 miles and provides comprehensive production

17 against the devastation caused by occasional but

18 massive destructive storm surges.

19 The U.S. Army Corps, New York, New

20 Jersey Harbor and Tributaries Coastal Storm Risk

21 Management Feasibility Study includes natural and

22 nature-based feature examples such as tidal

23 marsh, vegetative dune, oyster reef and fresh

24 water wetland. It is imperative to save the

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2 metropolitan region while maintaining a healthy

3 Hudson and East River.

4 The publication, I have a copy here

5 which I’ll submit, the Social Justice Case for a

6 Metropolitan New York, New Jersey Regional Storm

7 Surge Barrier System has demonstrated in the

8 environmental law in New York developments in

9 federal and state law, low and middle income

10 communities and communities of color suffered

11 more from Sandy and its aftermath than wealthier

12 neighborhoods. The same communities experienced

13 slower and less effective rebuilding efforts. The

14 circle of protection defends diverse income and

15 racial groups at lower cost and with better

16 outcomes than local community-based barriers such

17 as are currently planned.

18 The regional storm surge barrier is one

19 of five alternatives currently considered by the

20 Army. Alternative number two has the perimeter

21 defenses only addressing the sea level rise and

22 building a regional storm surge barrier system to

23 address the threat of storm surge. This would

24 shorten the coastline and provide comprehensive

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2 protection for the entire region. Both the Storm

3 Surge Barrier Working Group and the National

4 Institute of Coastal Harbor Infrastructure are

5 advocating for serious consideration of offshore

6 surge barriers as part of the layered defense.

7 For these reasons it’s imperative that the Corps

8 include alternative two in the tentatively

9 selected plan.

10 In conclusion, Sandy taught us the

11 importance of preparation and investment to

12 prepare for the worst potential impacts of global

13 warming. A few things to remember, the future of

14 the National Flood Insurance Program, known as

15 the NFIP continues to be uncertain and a

16 temporary extension has just passed the House

17 through September 30th. As you recall, June 1 is

18 the beginning of the hurricane seasons in 2019.

19 We don’t know how if or how much the federal

20 government will assist in rebuilding our

21 communities after the next Sandy.

22 Two, Moody’s, a major credit rating

23 agency added climate to credit risk and warned

24 cities to address their climate exposure or face

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2 rating downgrades. That would include this state

3 as well. In addition, S&P ratings incorporate

4 environmental sustainable governance guidelines,

5 ESG and climate to the extent that it affects an

6 entity’s ability to pay its debt. Cities that

7 suffer downgrades will not be able to make the

8 investments they need, including the investments

9 required to adapt to climate change and to

10 recover from future storms.

11 Three, 2018 global disasters cost $160

12 billion, a third of that, $80 billion came from

13 just four events in the United States, climate

14 change a factor says insurance company Munich Re

15 report.

16 Four, stalling on climate change action

17 may cost investors over $1 trillion. A U.N. led

18 assessment by investors includes guide to cut

19 risks in investments seen changing in value on

20 differing warming levels, Bloomberg recent

21 publication open May 10, 2019.

22 After September 11th, I came to this

23 room to testify on behalf of our community and

24 then again after Super Storm Sandy and democracy

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2 worked. It gives me confidence that we come

3 together today to defeat the climate crisis,

4 which is also a major national security issue. So

5 I want to thank you very much for listening to my

6 testimony today.

7 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

8 for offering your testimony. Is this handout a

9 part of your testimony.

10 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: Yes, and am I allowed

11 to give this to you? This is the actual one copy

12 of the article I have. I didn’t have ten of them.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Yes, we

14 would value that.

15 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: Because it goes into

16 the detail with the maps of the community.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: It

18 includes a picture of my dear friend Malcolm

19 Bowen.

20 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: Yes. He sends his

21 best, he said that you know each other.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: We were

23 hired on the same day at SUNY at Stony Brook. And

24 our offices were across -- we each got keys about

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2 the same time of day and our offices were across

3 the hall from one other. So I’ve known Malcolm

4 for almost 50 years. And he is someone with a

5 meaningful vision to protect our greatest city

6 and you are clearly, you know, cut from the same

7 cloth. If we can be of help. It’s a little

8 oblique to the CCPA, I say only a little oblique,

9 the fate of our state in so many ways is tied up

10 with the fate of lower Manhattan. And so the

11 wakeup call that we got with Super Storm Sandy is

12 one that we should not ignore and I think that’s

13 the thrust of your message. Let us stay in touch,

14 please. This is a meaningful priority. It’s

15 something like half of the revenue of the state

16 is generated below 14th street. It’s just

17 elementary that we should invest whatever is

18 necessary to prevent the drowning and destruction

19 of New York’s financial core.

20 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: And the fourth

21 largest business district is south of Chamber

22 Street, just to put it in proportion. So the

23 number one is midtown. And another thing I didn’t

24 mention is the amazing cultural and historic, you

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2 know, New York City started down here, you know,

3 between Francis Tavern and all the other major

4 historic artifacts down here.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Nathan

6 Hales grave and it goes on and on. We need to

7 talk. It’s something we can’t really fully

8 grapple with today. But thank you for bringing

9 your message and I want to extend an invitation

10 to you to continue a dialogue with my office and

11 with my colleagues. I am not alone. And many of

12 my colleagues in the Assembly are equally

13 apprehensive about what will happen if we do not

14 act.

15 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: So thank you very

16 much.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

18 MS. MCVAY HUGHES: I really appreciate

19 it.

20 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

21 Please proceed. [applause] You’re Amy Rosmarin?

22 MS. AMY ROSMARIN, CO-FOUNDER, STOP THE

23 ALGONQUIN PIPELINE EXPANSION: Yes, thank you for

24 this opportunity to help ensure the state’s

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2 climate bill can address our climate emergency.

3 I’m Amy Rosmarin, a co-founder of Stop the

4 Algonquin Pipeline Expansion. And thank you,

5 Chairman Englebright, you and your colleagues for

6 all that you’re doing to help protect us. So the

7 CCPA has strong goals to reduce carbon emissions

8 but has several loopholes that could impede the

9 achievement of those goals. And I’m going to talk

10 about them. To ensure that the state’s climate

11 bill can meet its targets, it is critical the

12 loopholes I’m about to discuss are not included

13 in the bill. And the written testimony has the

14 text from the CCPA, in green, but I’m going to be

15 talking about what’s below that.

16 So the first loophole has to do with the

17 definition of greenhouse gas emissions. For the

18 CCPA’s goal of 100 percent greenhouse gas

19 reduction to be credible, it needs to address all

20 or nearly all greenhouse gas emissions. The

21 bill’s definition of greenhouse gas emissions

22 source does not do this. The current definition

23 would let the DEC ignore any source that it

24 decides will not, quote, enable the department to

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2 effectively reduce greenhouse gas emissions, or

3 is quote, not capable of being monitored for

4 compliance.

5 The first part could be interpreted to

6 let the DEC to simply not count whatever source

7 that it thinks is too difficult to reduce. The

8 second part could exempt the vast majority of

9 sources in the state, depending on how the word

10 monitor is interpreted. It is important to

11 understand that greenhouse gas emissions from

12 most sources in New York, including cars, heating

13 systems and various other types of fossil fuel

14 burning equipment are not directly monitored.

15 Instead they are estimated, using empirical data

16 and statistics, with those estimates contributing

17 to the state’s total greenhouse gas inventory.

18 As written, this loophole could render

19 the bill’s 100 percent greenhouse gas reduction

20 mandate meaningless. Fighting climate change will

21 require the most accurate and complete inventory

22 of greenhouse gas emissions possible with an

23 effort to ensure that their net total is brought

24 as close as possible to zero.

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2 If there are to be any exemptions, it

3 should only be for sources that the state is

4 truly and capable of influencing, like airplanes

5 that fly non-stop across New York air space. Any

6 emissions source that the state can regulate or

7 influence through non-regulatory programs should

8 be counted. So the definition should be changed

9 to something like greenhouse gas emission source

10 or source means any anthropogenic source or

11 category of anthropogenic sources of greenhouse

12 gas emissions for which the state has regulatory

13 authority or has the ability to influence through

14 non-regulatory programs.

15 Okay, the second loophole has to do with

16 compliance. Transforming New York’s energy

17 system won’t be possible if emission limits are

18 violated. Near the end of the bill, the CCPA says

19 that all agencies must consider whether approvals

20 or decisions are inconsistent with or will

21 interfere with the attainment of the statewide

22 greenhouse gas emissions limits. If they are,

23 then the bill merely requires a, quote, statement

24 of justification as to why such limits criteria

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2 may not be met and the identification of

3 alternatives or some amount of GHG mitigation

4 where the project is located.

5 The bill does not require that those

6 alternatives or mitigation measures fully

7 compensate for the additional greenhouse gas

8 emissions caused by the project approval or

9 decision. Furthermore, since it says that any

10 mitigation must be where the project is located,

11 the amount of mitigation provided is likely to be

12 trivial.

13 This loophole should be closed by

14 requiring that actions taken ensure that

15 statewide greenhouse gas emission limits are not

16 violated. So the second sentence should be

17 modified to say, where an approval or decision is

18 deemed to be inconsistent with or will interfere

19 with the attainment of statewide greenhouse gas

20 emissions limits, the agency, office, authority

21 or division shall either reject the approval or

22 decision or shall require additional greenhouse

23 gas reduction measures of equal value to ensure

24 attainment of the statewide greenhouse gas

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2 emission limits established in Article 75 of the

3 Environmental Conservation Law.

4 The next loophole has to do with the

5 weak electricity mandate. A fundamental flaw in

6 the CCPA is that it is completely silent about

7 electricity after 2030. Fixing this part of the

8 bill is critical, especially since

9 electrification of other sectors like

10 transportation, heating and industry will require

11 more electricity than today. New York must plan

12 now for the renewables it will need after 2030 so

13 it will have the electricity to meet demand. The

14 CCPA should adopt 2030 and 2040 mandates for

15 electricity from load serving entities meeting

16 statewide electrical energy demand at least as

17 strong as the governor’s, that’s 70 percent

18 renewable electricity in 2030.

19 While the CCPA includes references to

20 greenhouse gas emissions after 2030, it does not

21 include anything statutory concerning electricity

22 generation after 2030. And it has to specify and

23 mandate the percent renewable generation for the

24 electricity sector in the years after 2030. It’s

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2 critical that there is planning now for the years

3 after 2030 in the electricity sector. Otherwise,

4 short-term decisions that serve the 2030

5 emissions target will be made, but adequate

6 needed infrastructure to serve the electric needs

7 after 2030 will not necessarily be in place.

8 Even considering the emission savings

9 from increased efficiencies, New York State will

10 be using more energy in the coming decades than

11 it does now, due to the transition to more

12 electric vehicles and electric equipment and heat

13 pumps. And there are estimates that almost twice

14 as much will be needed.

15 Installing the infrastructure to serve

16 both the reduced emission targets and the

17 increased electricity needs is a massive

18 undertaking. To accomplish what is needed in this

19 climate emergency, the long-term planning must

20 start now and specific mandates must be in place.

21 Another electricity related loophole in

22 the CCPA allows the state to miss its electricity

23 targets and this should be eliminated. It allows

24 targets to be extended for various reasons,

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2 including the electrification of transportation,

3 heating and industrial processes. This defeats

4 the purpose of electrifying other sectors because

5 if those targets are missed, additional demand

6 for electricity will have to be met with fossil

7 fuels. Furthermore if target dates are missed,

8 New York will have failed to act within the short

9 amount of time we have left to avoid climate

10 catastrophe.

11 To be effective, climate legislation

12 must synchronously provide for both the

13 electrification of sectors and the electricity

14 needed to support doing so. The CCPA allows the

15 state to suspend or modify obligations to ensure

16 safe, adequate and affordable electricity. Again,

17 these fundamental provisions, along with

18 affordability assistance for those who may need

19 it should be part of the plan. And the governor

20 already has executive authority that he can take

21 in the event of extreme emergencies.

22 The next points I want to discuss and

23 they’re in more detail in the written testimony

24 is that reducing greenhouse gas emissions is a

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2 massive undertaking and is more than just setting

3 limits. Synchronously, it needs programs, so the

4 climate action council should be co-chaired by

5 NYSERDA. Additionally, the scoping plan should be

6 elevated to an actual plan, and language that

7 conveys the magnitude of this task should be

8 added to the bill with specific requirements and

9 incentives. And there’s a list of those in the

10 written testimony.

11 And then I’d also like to discuss

12 nuclear energy. Due to the serious potential for

13 contamination of natural resources and health

14 impacts and the high long-term costs of safely

15 isolating and protecting the spent fuel, the

16 state should include mandates for the responsible

17 retirement of its existing nuclear reactors and

18 provide adequate resources for replacement energy

19 from renewables. In no circumstances, should the

20 energy from nuclear be replaced by gas, nor

21 should this retirement slow the transition from

22 fossil fuels to renewables.

23 And I just want to add one thing that

24 is, yeah, please ban all new fossil fuels

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2 buildout. That’s my testimony. [Applause]

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Wow. We’re

4 appreciative of your analytical evaluation. We

5 work in the world of language, legislative

6 language. And so you’ve cautioned us on a number

7 of important points, and I thank you and we will

8 review it carefully and so that’s specific to the

9 bill. The other part is your caution to make sure

10 that we make sure that the decision on the

11 Williams pipeline of the other day is not an

12 aberration.

13 MS. ROSMARIN: That the -- excuse me?

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: That’s

15 it’s not an aberration.

16 MS. ROSMARIN: Oh, that no more

17 pipelines?

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Yeah.

19 MS. ROSMARIN: Yeah, no more pipelines.

20 No more anything. You know, anything having to do

21 with fossil fuel buildout.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Yeah, the

23 infrastructure has to justify itself once it’s

24 invested into and it also gets a whole

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2 constituency full of people who are either

3 investors or who earn money off of repairing it

4 and maintaining it and buffing it so it shines in

5 the sunlight, all of which is crazy, in the

6 context of where we need to go.

7 MS. ROSMARIN: Right.

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Your point

9 is well taken. Our difficulty is it’s sometimes

10 not just a legislative decision and the governor

11 has been of different minds at different times on

12 various issues that relate to energy. He wants to

13 close one nuclear power plant, he wants to

14 continue three others indefinitely in Central New

15 York, it’s difficult to reconcile some of this.

16 But we’re trying. And we need to, and you’ve

17 reminded us of that great need. We will review

18 your specific to this bill recommendations.

19 They’re important and I thank you.

20 MS. ROSMARIN: Okay. Great. Yeah, and

21 just, I mean other people have said this, but

22 it’s crazy to allow any more fossil fuel

23 buildout, no more, you know, power plants and

24 peaker plants and pipelines because it hooks us

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2 in to just what we can’t have.

3 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Sure.

4 That’s the constituency I’m talking about. It

5 develops a constituency that starts at Main

6 Street and goes to Wall Street. So the financial

7 incentives for continuation of the use of fossil

8 fuels becomes a meaningful impediment to getting

9 to where we need to get to in terms of our

10 climate goals.

11 MS. ROSMARIN: Yes. And renewables

12 create so many more jobs.

13 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Oh, sure.

14 You’re thinking outside of the box though.

15 MS. ROSMARIN: Thank you for this time.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

17 for taking the time and waiting all day and

18 again, your thoughts will be carefully evaluated.

19 Thank you.

20 MS. ELIZABETH MALONE, PROGRAM MANAGER,

21 INSURANCE & RESILIENCY SERVICES, NEIGHBORHOOD

22 HOUSING SERVICES OF BROOKLYN CDC: Hello.

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: You’re

24 next.

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2 MS. MALONE: Yes. We’re alone at last.

3 We can talk. [laughter] Yeah, I’m Beth Malone. I

4 am, I work for Neighborhood Housing Services of

5 Brooklyn, a community-based organization that has

6 served Brooklyn residents for the last 36 years.

7 And I’m the program manager for Insurance and

8 Resiliency Services. I really, I’m just grateful

9 for your leadership on the issues of climate

10 change. It is an existential issue and our

11 organization fully supports your legislation, and

12 hopes that you can get it passed during this

13 session. I know you only have a few weeks left.

14 But one of the things that has concerned

15 me through this day of testimony is the

16 timeframes that we’re talking about, 2030, 2040,

17 2050. The coastal communities and also the

18 communities on the rivers of New York State don’t

19 have that timeframe. They are looking at a

20 lifespan of about five years financially if we

21 don’t get some action on the issues that are

22 facing these coastal neighborhoods.

23 One of the things that came out after I

24 submitted my testimony was an article dropped

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2 into my mailbox, 98 percent of U.S. counties have

3 flooded. Okay. So Upstate, I know Irene did

4 terrific damage that we have not yet completely

5 repaired and not yet completely done the

6 mitigation that is needed to protect those

7 communities. And here Downstate, the mitigation

8 that we’re contemplating is billions of dollars

9 away and years away. And hurricane season starts

10 in two weeks. Again, about an hour from now,

11 there’s a very good chance that the west end of

12 Coney Island will be flooded once again because

13 climate change is here in the New York bite and

14 the storm water catchments in Coney Island that

15 had filled up with storm water in the last couple

16 of days, probably just need one more rainstorm

17 before they have to drain out into Coney Island

18 Creek, which there was rain predicted for this

19 afternoon. I don’t know if it happened, because

20 we’ve been in here. But if it did, it’s a good

21 chance that those storm drains will be overflowed

22 and fill out, attempt to fill out to Coney Island

23 Creek. However, due to climate change and sea

24 level rise, the outtake, the outflow pipes are

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2 under water at high tide. And high tide is about

3 8:00 o’clock tonight. So once again, Coney Island

4 will be experiencing flooding.

5 And the state and the city, I went to a

6 meeting recently about this, they do not have a

7 solution for this yet. And this is not a five

8 year timeline we have to work with or a 15 year

9 timeline. This is this evening.

10 In hurricane season that’s coming up in

11 two weeks, Catherine mentioned, was talking about

12 protections for Manhattan. I know there was an

13 article in The New York Times you might have seen

14 about the great big sandbags. I was complimented

15 Dan Zarilli on getting those into place in three

16 different places in New York City, Astoria, Red

17 Hook and the Lower Eastside. The neighborhood

18 where my office is, which is in Canarsie, would

19 very much be happy to see them, however ugly they

20 are because we have nothing to stop the

21 inundation that comes in from Paerdegat Inlet,

22 even though on the other side of the inlet on

23 Bergen Beach, they did built the berms and they

24 were promised for the Canarsie side and have yet

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2 to appear.

3 We can’t wait for the Army Corps of

4 Engineers to go through their process where we

5 will not be building a $814 billion wall. But

6 when we do finally get down to engineering

7 mitigation for our waterways, and that includes

8 Upstate, we may be financially already ruined by

9 that time, as communities because the National

10 Flood Insurance Program is going to have a major

11 impact.

12 We cannot elevate our communities house

13 by house. If you look at the older neighborhoods

14 up the Hudson River and certainly along the coast

15 of New York City, we can’t put them up in the

16 air. That is not a solution physically or

17 financially possible. We’re going to have to do

18 infrastructure mitigation and it has to be done

19 so that it results in credits and reduced risk

20 rates from the National Flood Insurance Program.

21 Right now, the program, as you know,

22 since you are on Long Island, and I’m sure your

23 constituents are dealing with this, flood

24 insurance increased rates as they removed the

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2 subsidies. And they’re projecting insurance rates

3 annual premiums at ten and $12,000 a year. Long

4 before we reach those numbers, our neighborhoods

5 will be in foreclosure. I would say three to

6 five years once the map change comes in.

7 And the map change is supposed to be

8 signed off probably by the end of 2020. I don’t

9 think they’ll be able to push it back any

10 further. In New York City, that means we

11 increase our flood plain, our special flood

12 hazard area by 90 percent. There’s 34,000 homes

13 that are going to be required to purchase flood

14 insurance and these are in communities like Coney

15 Island and Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach.

16 These are working class communities. Gerritsen

17 Beach, Canarsie, and these people cannot afford

18 another bill. They cannot afford $1,000 to get an

19 elevation certification so they can manage their

20 flood program.

21 So as you go forward in working with

22 these mitigation issues, I urge you to look at

23 what we can do now to keep our city, our

24 neighborhoods and our communities viable. These

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2 are thriving areas. Retreat is not really an

3 option. There are some areas where we may be able

4 to do buybacks and acquisition and that should

5 not be rebuilt, certainly not house by house.

6 But we have to deal with the immediate

7 issues and of the 34,000 homes that are going

8 into this flood plain and are potentially facing

9 foreclosure, I’ve spoken to about 2,000 of them,

10 okay. There is no funding for education or

11 outreach. My organization has cobbled together my

12 salary from $1,000 here, $5,000 there. And one of

13 the scariest things is that I am the only full

14 time insurance counselor specializing in the

15 National Flood Insurance Program in the city of

16 New York.

17 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Oh, wow.

18 MS. MALONE: And if you know anybody

19 Upstate, I’ll be happy to talk to them, because

20 I’m lonely. But if there isn’t anybody Upstate,

21 that makes me the only one in New York State.

22 This is not a good idea. And we could train other

23 people. It’s not a matter of expertise of

24 knowledge. It’s a matter of no one is funding

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2 insurance education, not the federal government,

3 not the state government and not the city.

4 They’re all coming to us and saying can you

5 deliver this information to the community because

6 as we’ve mentioned earlier in this conference,

7 community engagement on these issues is crucial.

8 In order to get the support you need for

9 continuing the climate change address and for the

10 mitigation and programs that are going to be

11 needed to make our cities viable, the community

12 has to be informed and engaged. And that can be

13 done by community based organizations. And none

14 of us have gotten any funding.

15 So I know you need to -- I fully support

16 what you need to do now but we don’t have a 2030

17 timeline. We have about a 2025 because we are not

18 financially sustainable. And that’s without

19 another storm. Okay. So that’s what I wanted to

20 bring to you today and thank you for giving me

21 the time.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Very

23 sobering. Thank you. I think. [applause]

24 MS. MALONE: Just one more task for you.

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2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

3 for the information, not necessarily the preview

4 of terrible times that may come if we don’t heed

5 your message.

6 MS. MALONE: Well, all we have to do is

7 redesign and rebuild coastal New York. That’s it.

8 That’s all, that’s a simple thing.

9 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: A piece of

10 cake.

11 MS. MALONE: Well, we just --

12 organizations like mine just spent the last 20

13 years redesigning and rebuilding Central New York

14 City, the Bronx.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: So it can

16 be done is what you’re saying.

17 MS. MALONE: Harlem.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Yeah.

19 MS. MALONE: Bedstuy. Jamaica. We know

20 how to do this. We need the leadership and we

21 need the funding.

22 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

23 for that.

24 MS. MALONE: I’m going to take a two

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2 minute break and then I’ll be right back. We

3 still have four or five more people to go. But

4 we’re almost toward the end of the day. So don’t

5 leave, but I’ll be right back.

6 [OFF THE RECORD]

7 [ON THE RECORD]

8 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: So, if we

9 can resume, we have our final panel of the day,

10 which proves that we can count to ten. If there

11 are others who wish to testify, this is your

12 time, please come up. I do have some names. I’m

13 wondering is Yurié Collins here?

14 MS. YURIÉ COLLINS, SUNRISE NYC

15 EXTINCTION REBELLION: Yes.

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Hi, Yurié.

17 Thank you for being so patient.

18 MS. COLLINS: No problem.

19 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Is Mark

20 Schafer here? Is Annie Wilson --

21 MS. ANNIE WILSON, SENIOR ENERGY POLICY

22 ADVISOR, NY ENVIRONMENTAL LAW & JUSTICE PROJECT:

23 Yes.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- here

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2 and Kyle Jeremiah?

3 MR. KYLE JEREMIAH, COMMUNICATIONS,

4 ENERGY VISION: Yes.

5 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: And is

6 there an Arjang Jameh? Wondeful. Well thank you

7 all for staying with the program until the very

8 end here. It’s much appreciated. Why don’t we

9 being with Yurié Collins?

10 MS. COLLINS: Okay. Thank you for this

11 opportunity both for me as a concerned citizen to

12 speak at, as well as learn from you and the other

13 speakers. My name is Yurié Collins. I’m an

14 actress. I also wait tables in downtown

15 Manhattan. I’ve participated in nonviolent direct

16 actions organized by Extension Rebellion, Sunrise

17 Movement, Rainforest Action Network, and Cosecha.

18 I was encouraged to speak today by New York

19 Renews, a climate justice coalition.

20 Fossil fuel is embedded in almost every

21 moment of our modern lifestyle. Therefore, it can

22 be difficult for people to imagine a world where

23 we are not fully dependent on it. A zero

24 emissions standard can initially sound irrational

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2 so we find a middle ground and try to make

3 compromises. We want to keep living the way we do

4 now with a less guilty conscience.

5 The CCPA currently calls for eliminating

6 all greenhouse gas emissions. However, we’re

7 hearing that the governor wants to move to a

8 carbon neutral standard rather than a zero

9 emissions standard. This means that instead of

10 getting rid of all of our state’s greenhouse gas

11 emissions, we have no net releases of carbon,

12 meaning for some of the carbon we emit, we can

13 cancel it out through carbon capture and

14 sequestration, carbon offsets or other programs.

15 This proposal might sound nice and very

16 doable at first for some people. With carbon

17 offsets, companies and individuals can compensate

18 for the pollution they produce by preventing a

19 similar amount of pollution from happening

20 elsewhere or by pulling a similar amount of

21 carbon from the atmosphere. However, this

22 compromise of a carbon neutral standard does not

23 permit a clear conscious. Carbon offsets do not

24 reduce pollution in frontline communities, low

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2 income communities and in communities of color in

3 New York State.

4 The political system has abandoned these

5 communities for far too long. It is a fact that

6 polluting infrastructure such as power plants,

7 highways and landfills are disproportionately

8 sighted in low income communities and communities

9 of color. To have climate justice, we must remove

10 pollution at the source, not rearrange it. We

11 should not allow a power plant in the Bronx to

12 offset their carbon emissions by planting trees

13 or investing in a wind farm Upstate, because

14 Bronx residents will continue to breathe in dirty

15 air. This logic to me, is the same as a serial

16 killer offsetting his or her murders by giving

17 birth to as many people he or she has killed.

18 Many of us, and I mean the general

19 public, when we hear climate change, we think of

20 a distant future, hundreds of years from now when

21 the polar bears are extinct and we can no longer

22 enjoy honey or coffee and when hopefully our

23 advancements in technology has solved this

24 crisis. However, the effects of climate change

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2 are happening right now, right here at home, and

3 this crisis demands action today, using the

4 resources and inventions that already exist.

5 Our communities deserve environmental

6 justice and not just a vision for a semi-livable

7 planet in the future. Burning fossil fuels, which

8 we will continue to do so under a carbon

9 neutrality standard, don’t just emit carbon, but

10 burning fossil fuels also emits co-pollutants,

11 toxins that don’t directly cause global warming,

12 but that do cause asthma, smog, respiratory and

13 cardiac illness.

14 Carbon offsets are for carbon only and

15 don’t address the co-pollutants poisoning New

16 York communities. According to the American Lung

17 Association, more than nine million New Yorkers

18 live in counties rated C or below for toxic co-

19 pollutants. Unsurprisingly, a disproportionate

20 number of these New Yorkers are people of color,

21 which contributes to New Yorkers of color having

22 higher rates of asthma, cancer risks and other

23 health conditions compared to whites.

24 This is particularly true in Manhattan

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2 and the Bronx where people of color are exposed

3 to toxic co-pollutants at nearly twice the rate

4 of whites and in Erie, Monroe and Onondaga

5 Counties, where cancer risks due to air pollution

6 is significantly higher for people. Climate

7 policy that includes offsets but does not

8 consider co-pollutants is unjust and doubles down

9 on existing environmental racism.

10 Acknowledging that climate change is a

11 thing is simply not enough. That was taken care

12 of over 30 years ago when Exxon’s own scientists

13 circulated an internal document to management

14 warning that catastrophic events could arise from

15 continuing to burn fossil fuels. Exxon took these

16 warnings seriously, as we all know, and rebuilt

17 their drilling platforms to prepare for a sea

18 level rise they knew was coming. And yet, here we

19 are, 30 years later, still trying to figure out

20 how can we keep burning fossil fuels without

21 simultaneously killing ourselves. But we already

22 are killing ourselves by abandoning these

23 frontline communities and allowing this

24 preventable suffering.

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2 As the U.N. reported in the last few

3 weeks, with one million species now at the risk

4 of extinction, are we going to count our own

5 species as one of them? Or worse, are we going to

6 be the first species on this planet to know of

7 and do nothing or too little about and countdown

8 our own extinction?

9 We are in a climate emergency. And

10 emergencies require emergency action. And the

11 carbon neutrality standards is simply not enough

12 and we are running out of time. The World Bank

13 projected, in a 2018 study, assuming current

14 warming and emissions trends, more than 140

15 million people in just three regions of the world

16 will be made climate migrants by 2050. 2050 is

17 closer to now than 1985, the year of Thriller and

18 the time traveling DeLorean. So eventually, this

19 crisis will affect all of us, and those of us who

20 aren’t concerned now will be forced to pay

21 attention. Out of sight is a privilege, but out

22 of mind is an irresponsible and immoral choice.

23 Right now, in 2019, as I’ve stated

24 before, low income communities and communities of

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2 color are disproportionately impacted by the

3 fossil fuel economy and the worst impacts of

4 climate change. The CCPA standard requires that

5 40 percent of climate funds go to these frontline

6 communities. We are hearing that the governor

7 wants to weaken this equity provision and that

8 the 40 percent investment is too high.

9 To quote David Wallace Wells, quote,

10 this country was founded on genocidal

11 indifference to the native landscape and those

12 who inhabited it and its modern ambitions have

13 always been precarious, end quote. Weakening the

14 equity provisions of the CCPA will be such

15 precarious ambition. California tried to set a

16 similar equity standard, but their number was

17 lower, 25 percent. In practice, when the state

18 began to spend the money, they found that 51

19 percent of funds ended up going to environmental

20 justices communities because the investments had

21 the highest impact in the areas where pollution

22 was the worst. Forty percent is a modest number

23 and we must preserve this investment for our

24 communities.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 386 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 I hope New York State will stand on the

3 right side of history and make the difficult but

4 just decisions that impact all of us. For too

5 long, we’ve fed ourselves comforting delusions

6 that the burning of fossil fuels is the price of

7 continued economic growth. This vision of growth

8 is far too shortsighted and partially blind. We

9 must invest in and embrace experimentation for a

10 sustainable future, one that values all

11 communities and their fundamental rights and

12 their pursuit of happiness. And we must do so

13 with moral integrity. This is our planet, our

14 home and it’s the only one we’ve got. Thank you

15 very much. [applause]

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

17 very much. So California had 51 percent of the

18 funds going -- maybe we should change our bill

19 and make it 51 percent instead of 40 percent.

20 MS. COLLINS: That would be better.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: It would

22 be better. And it might be more in line with what

23 would be fair. I’m not just saying that tongue-

24 in-cheek. We’re going to talk about this because

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 387 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 they are trying to cut our 40 percent in half

3 right now, and maybe the best response is to --

4 MS. COLLINS: Bring it up.

5 MS. WILSON: Fifty percent.

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: -- to,

7 make it -- well, or 51 percent because there’s a

8 database from another sister state in California,

9 apparently, which I didn’t know until just now.

10 Do you know what your source of information is

11 for that?

12 MS. COLLINS: My talking points

13 specifically that one was provided from New York

14 Renews.

15 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: From New

16 York Renews?

17 MS. COLLINS: Yes.

18 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

19 very much.

20 MS. COLLINS: Thank you.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Is Annie

22 Wilson here?

23 MS. WILSON: Yes, hi.

24 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Hi, Annie.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 388 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 MS. WILSON: I was supposed to have been

3 here earlier, but I couldn’t get here, so.

4 Relating to the New York Renews bill, act, I will

5 -- no, not that New York Renews Act, look at

6 that. There’s been over 110 organizations

7 involved with New York Renews promoting this bill

8 as you know. So I will correct myself and just

9 read directly and explain the one page I’ve sent

10 in that you have.

11 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Mm-hmm.

12 MS. WILSON: And my first comment is

13 that designating a 40 percent portion of carbon

14 related revenue towards disadvantaged communities

15 might help alleviate some of the burdens caused

16 by the climate crisis and help support the

17 developments of a climate adaptation economy and

18 jobs. And so I added -- I went to the RGGI

19 reports to look at like what they had been

20 designating their funds to. So the second and

21 third page is a breakdown of their revised 2019

22 version of their expenditures. So the reason I

23 did that was because I’m wondering, regarding

24 their accounting, how they’re doing it now could

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 389 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 possibly reflect what the goals are within the

3 Climate and Communities Protection Act. In other

4 words, they could manage to identify which

5 communities their programs are, and possibly how

6 much is being given to which income bracket. And

7 so I think as a preliminary study, it would be

8 interesting to see how much at this time is being

9 given to the particular communities that we’re

10 identifying now as priority. So that’s just why I

11 added this, okay.

12 And then, my next comment is on the New

13 York Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative Operating

14 Plan Amendment. It doesn’t detail specifically

15 which -- you know what, that’s the paragraph that

16 is second to the first, and so it details what I

17 just said, as a description of the first

18 paragraph, so we’ll leave it there.

19 The big loophole, amongst others that

20 were identified earlier today, in my opinion is

21 what is renewable energy systems. And there are

22 other issues including what the other

23 identifications of renewable are, that whether

24 they be biogas, biofuels and so forth, are

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 390 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 extremely controversial. In my testimony, I wish

3 to address the hydroelectric issue, because

4 Section 66PC needs to be distinguished as either

5 small scale or large scale or in state production

6 only. My fear is that by just identifying

7 hydroelectric as hydroelectric without

8 identifying what kind of hydroelectric, there

9 will be some misuse of that definition and some

10 promotion of large hydroelectric imports from

11 Canada, as with recently in New York, two weeks

12 ago, the mayor announced that they were going to

13 purchase 600 megawatts of power from Canadian

14 hydro dams, megadams.

15 And so I will state that the Climate and

16 Communities Protection Act should precisely

17 reflect the existing state standards for

18 renewable energy. Hydroelectric in the New York

19 Clean Energy Standard adopted in 2016 doesn’t

20 allow hydroelectric with impoundment, which is

21 flooding, to be eligible. This is similar to the

22 New York Renewable Portfolio Standard of 2005 to

23 2015, and I attached the August 1, 2016 order

24 adopting a clean standard as it relates to the

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 391 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 definition as hydroelectric as no impoundment. So

3 I suggest that the Climate and Communities

4 Protection Act should reflect the standard

5 currently being used in the state for the Clean

6 Energy Standard. And I’ll address my issues with

7 that standard and nuclear power later on in my

8 comments.

9 But please change the language on that.

10 And if you can’t identify hydroelectric as small

11 scale or large scale, find a way to at least

12 address the instate production that the renewable

13 energy systems relating to hydroelectric would

14 have to be in state. With Renewable Portfolio

15 Standard, the grandfathered proportion of

16 hydroelectric from Niagara Falls and the New York

17 Power Authority control of the hydroelectric in

18 New York, was already at 17 percent. So that’s

19 already been grandfathered.

20 But for all other hydro, we cannot be

21 accepting new project that involve flooding or

22 imports from projects north of the border that

23 involve flooding. So that is again I’m going to

24 restate, very important to distinguish what type

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 392 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 of hydroelectric this act is going to incorporate

3 as renewable. And as I said, identifying instate

4 production will really help the situation if you

5 can do that. And then, because there’s already

6 that standard established, so you can avoid extra

7 language if that’s what you don’t want to go for.

8 So, I’ll read on. The Climate and

9 Communities Protection Act hydroelectric loophole

10 has become more relevant since the Earth Day

11 announcement by New York Mayor de Blasio to

12 procure for the city, this is city operations,

13 600 megawatts of hydro power produced by megadams

14 in Canada and allowing buildings to purchase

15 RECs, renewable energy credits, to offset their

16 carbon footprint with the same type of hydro

17 power via the Champlain Hudson Power Express,

18 known as CHPE, a proposed transmission under the

19 Hudson River -- and I attached the political

20 article that is entitled, Last Minute Clause in

21 City Emissions Bill Sparks Hydro Power Debate.

22 And so please review that article and

23 you’ll understand how within New York State there

24 are, for example, the New York Environmental

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 393 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 Justice Alliance has spoken up against, you know,

3 what are these RECs, what are these offsets and

4 how, instead of providing energy efficiency,

5 landlords or owners of buildings would have the

6 option of just buy RECs from hydro dams in

7 Canada, and that transmission line coming down

8 from Canada require, well according to the Public

9 Service Commission, requires 80 percent of the

10 capacity to be sold for it to be built, but it’s

11 already permitted in 2014 with a presidential

12 permit. So this is perfect example on how there

13 can be some confusion about renewable energy and

14 whether hydro power is or isn’t.

15 So, I also put in a link to the

16 Northeast Megadams dot org, and they explain very

17 well on that site the effect of methylmercury,

18 the effects of large dams and the genocide caused

19 by the methylmercury poisoning of the food

20 systems in Canada and how the ecology destruction

21 is also to be noted and considered when wanting

22 to purchase from these large projects in Canada.

23 So, regarding the Clean Energy Standard

24 and the 7.5 billion in ratepayer subsidies that

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2 support the aging Upstate nuclear power reactors

3 until 2029. I think that this act should somehow

4 address this impediment on the quick deployment

5 of locally produced renewable energy and find a

6 way to redirect the funds for the purposes of

7 this act. And I think that, to continue on with

8 this ongoing operation of aging plants and so

9 much of that money, which is $7.6 billion, will

10 be better used to implement more energy

11 efficiency and renewable energy programs in the

12 state.

13 So, in general, there were other

14 comments I wanted to bring to your attention. I

15 think and I agree with you, offsets and carbon

16 trading and market solutions are not a solution

17 of any kind and that we need to just ramp down

18 this issuance of emissions and not trade them. I

19 think also with the public ownership of the grid,

20 as a community owned program, or as a big design

21 on how do we render our systems that are in place

22 more effective, if the public owned the grid,

23 just like we own our highways, the interest of

24 the grid would be very different than what they

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 395 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 are now. So I think that including that as a list

3 of community ownership is definitely the

4 electrical grid as we need to ramp up as quickly

5 as possible with this climate crisis, our

6 renewable energy systems.

7 Of course, expanding fossil fuel

8 infrastructure in any way is highly inappropriate

9 and we need a real ban on fracking, because the

10 existing ban is a de factor ban. It’s a de facto

11 ban and we need legislation now that will

12 hopefully get passed both by the Senate and the

13 Assembly to have a real ban on fracking and not a

14 de facto ban as it stands today. Thank you very

15 much. [applause]

16 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

17 very much. Much food for thought. Kyle Jeremiah.

18 MR. JEREMIAH: Yes.

19 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Kyle,

20 you’re next.

21 MR. JEREMIAH: Good evening, and thank

22 you Assembly Member Englebright for the

23 opportunity to talk about climate change and its

24 impacts on communities and the workforce in New

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 396 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 York. My Name is Kyle Jeremiah, I represent

3 Energy Vision, which is a New York City based

4 501(c)3 environmental organization recognized

5 nationally as a leading independent expert in

6 exploring commercial, cost effective options for

7 decarbonizing our economy. I want to focus my

8 remarks on the exceptional environmental,

9 economic, public health and social justice

10 benefits for our state that can come from

11 maximizing the transformation of the state’s vast

12 stream of organic waste into clean energy and a

13 nutrient rich fertilizer. We encourage the

14 committee to make this strategy a high priority,

15 as it pursues bold legislative action through the

16 Climate and Community Protection Act or related

17 efforts.

18 New York State and the U.S. overall have

19 made impressive progress in deploying renewable

20 sources of electricity, especially wind and

21 solar. But to meet New York’s ambitious economy

22 wide emissions reduction goal requires looking at

23 all sectors and pursuing strategies appropriate

24 to each.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 397 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 So long as humans inhabit this planet we

3 will generate organic waste, especially food

4 scraps, waste water and animal manure. Harnessing

5 the power of our organic resource through

6 anaerobic digestion is a proven scalable strategy

7 that should be prioritized. Buildout of state of

8 the art infrastructure to fully develop this

9 resource in New York is an important piece of the

10 puzzle in protecting disadvantaged communities

11 most at risk from adverse impacts and ensure just

12 transitions that result in good paying jobs.

13 New York generates 3.9 million tons of

14 food waste a year from communities and businesses

15 and 13.7 million tons a year of manure and other

16 waste from farms and dairies. As they decompose,

17 these organic materials are prolific emitters of

18 methane gas that warm the climate. So is the

19 municipal sewage in New York’s nearly 600

20 wastewater treatment plants and the organic

21 already generated in previous years still

22 decomposing and outgassing in 27 major landfills

23 across the state.

24 Methane emissions from organic waste

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 398 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 sources account for nine percent of the state’s

3 total greenhouse gases by volume, which is

4 considerable in itself. Much of the climate

5 debate is focused on limiting carbon dioxide

6 emissions. But in terms of its effects on the

7 climate over the next 20 years, methane emissions

8 are much more impactful and the most urgent form

9 of greenhouse gases to curtail.

10 Methane is 86 times more potent than

11 carbon dioxide over 20 years, the critical period

12 during which we need to act to keep global

13 warming below two degrees Celcius. Using proven,

14 commercially available anaerobic digestion

15 technologies can be implemented across the state

16 today. We can capture the biogases from New

17 York’s organic wastes, preventing the methane

18 emissions that would otherwise escape into the

19 atmosphere. This tackles New York’s methane

20 emissions problem head on, directly addressing

21 the source of nine percent of its greenhouse

22 gases.

23 But that’s just the beginning. Captured

24 methane can then be processed into biomethane, a

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 399 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 renewable, ultralow carbon made in New York fuel

3 that can play a crucial role in meeting the

4 state’s greenhouse gas emission reduction goals

5 while simultaneously improving air and water

6 quality.

7 Just as electricity generated from wind

8 and solar can displace electricity from fossil

9 fuels, biomethane can be a direct renewable

10 substitute for the natural gas we use daily for

11 cooking, heating, generating electricity and

12 fueling vehicles.

13 Following the anaerobic digestion

14 process biomethane is refined into pipeline grade

15 fuel that is chemically nearly identical to

16 natural gas. But it’s not a fossil fuel. It can

17 be transported and stored in the same

18 infrastructure and used in the same applications,

19 from gas fired power plants to compressed natural

20 gas vehicles.

21 But unlike natural gas, as I mentioned

22 before, it’s not a fossil fuel. It’s fully

23 renewable, requires no fracking or other

24 extractive processes, prevents fugitive methane

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 400 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 emissions rather than generating them and has a

3 much lower carbon footprint. Biomethane fuel has

4 been verified by the California Air Resources

5 Board to be net carbon neutral or even net carbon

6 negative fuel over its lifecycle.

7 This means that more greenhouse gases

8 are captured in producing the fuel than are ever

9 emitted by the vehicles running on it. Put

10 another way, using biomethane as a transport fuel

11 doesn’t just add less greenhouse gases to the

12 atmosphere, it effectively subtracts it, actually

13 resulting in net lower atmospheric greenhouse gas

14 emissions than if the fuel were never made or

15 used in the first place.

16 Developing and using biomethane in New

17 York would vault the state towards achieving its

18 emissions reduction, clean energy, clean

19 transportation, air quality and waste reduction

20 goals while also generating significant instate

21 economic benefits. But we’re largely using this

22 resource go untapped and failing to develop New

23 York’s massive organic waste stream as a massive

24 renewable energy resource.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 401 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 But fortunately, in 2019, New York

3 passed landmark requiring large generators of

4 organic waste to divert that material from

5 landfills. For the portion that cannot be

6 redistributed for human consumption, creating

7 biomethane and compost offers a here and now

8 solution to produce carbon negative fuel for our

9 heavy duty urban buses and trucks.

10 Just yesterday, the Metropolitan Transit

11 Authority announced its intent to convert its

12 approximately 800 natural gas buses operating in

13 Brooklyn and the Bronx from fossil gas to waste

14 derived biomethane fuel at no additional cost to

15 the agency and likely resulting in cost savings,

16 the use of this ultralow carbon fuel will reduce

17 greenhouse gas emissions by at least 40,000 tons

18 or more per year.

19 And just to give you a brief summary of

20 the six benefits to New York State associated

21 with expanding the production and use of

22 biomethane. It’s a possible 15 percent reduction

23 or more in the state of greenhouse gases. In

24 terms of clean transportation, biomethane’s

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 402 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 unique role in decarbonizing heavy duty buses and

3 trucks as I just outlined with MTA’s recent

4 announcement to procure biomethane fuel. Then we

5 have improved air quality using biomethane

6 powered near zero natural gas engines which

7 reduce emissions of health damaging nitrogen

8 oxides to negligible levels, 90 percent below the

9 most stringent EPA requirements. Another benefit

10 is the improved water and soil quality, waste

11 reduction and the landfill diversion and the

12 economic benefits, 160 digesters and creation of

13 over 6,400 jobs.

14 So of the more than 90 operational

15 biomethane projects across the U.S., only two are

16 in New York, which leaves most of the state’s

17 organic waste energy potential yet to be

18 developed. That’s a liability, but also an

19 opportunity. Energy Visions research indicates

20 that given conducive policies and market

21 conditions, New York is well positioned to

22 attract investors, project developers, farmers

23 and other stakeholders to develop biomethane.

24 Through ambitious action, New York has an

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 403 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 opportunity to frame and adopt policy measures

3 that would enable more instate biomethane

4 production and use, unleashing deep positive

5 climate impacts and many co-benefits for the

6 state.

7 Other states have adopted such policies

8 enabling biomethane development. For example, in

9 California, Connecticut, Massachusetts and

10 Vermont also have laws restricting disposal of

11 organic waste in landfills, which helps create a

12 market for these materials as food stocks for

13 biomethane. California’s framework on so-called

14 short lived climate pollutants creates programs

15 and policies to reduce methane emissions,

16 especially building out infrastructure for

17 anaerobic digestion.

18 California and Oregon have made rapid

19 progress on biomethane development with their low

20 carbon fuel standard, which require fuel

21 producers, refiners and importers to reduce the

22 overall carbon content of state’s fuel supply

23 through blending or displacement of petroleum

24 based fuels with renewable alternatives including

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 404 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 biomethane.

3 Canada is currently considering a

4 similar measure. And just to wrap up, explicitly

5 including biomethane in the suite of carbon

6 neutral and carbon negative options would be a

7 significant policy step toward developing it in

8 New York. We strongly encourage the New York

9 State Legislature to include biomethane in any

10 policy or program and place a high priority on

11 pursuing these measures that could help

12 accelerate its development in the state.

13 If New York’s climate goals are to be

14 met, we simply can’t continue to ignore a

15 powerful, homegrown energy source that can scale

16 up carbon negative energy, decarbonizes heavy

17 transport and cut New York’s overall emissions 15

18 percent or more while improving our air, water

19 and soil quality, public health and economy. I

20 thank you for your time and consideration.

21 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you,

22 Mr. Jeremiah, very detailed comments and we

23 appreciate them, thank you.

24 MR. JEREMIAH: Thank you.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 405 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Arjang

3 Jameh?

4 MR. ARJANG JAMEH, ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT:

5 Thank you very much for having me.

6 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

7 for staying through the day and we are interested

8 in hearing your thoughts. You’ve had the benefit

9 of hearing as many speakers as I have. You’ve

10 been here all day.

11 MR. JAMEH: Yes, I have. Thank you so

12 much for giving me a few more minutes for me to

13 talk.

14 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Certainly.

15 MR. JAMEH: My name is Arjang Jameh, and

16 I’m the coordinator for a global sustainability

17 advocacy organization called the Zeitgeist

18 Movement. Basically, just to make things short,

19 our focus clearly is on environmental and social

20 sustainability, as those two things go hand in

21 hand because the right behavioral choices will

22 also lead to better environmental outcomes and

23 having a better environment will dictate better

24 human behavior and more sustainable actions.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 406 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 Our basic premise is that we run off a

3 philosophy or we have thinking called

4 structuralism. Structuralism simply is a

5 methodology where elements of human culture are

6 to be understood in terms of the relationship to

7 larger overarching systems or structures. My

8 point here is the root socioeconomic premise, our

9 economic mode of operation right now is in and of

10 itself highly unsustainable, because it is

11 running off of outdated notions of societal

12 management.

13 On a global and local level, the

14 question should be why are we still polluting and

15 emitting and running off of outdated and

16 inefficient industrial methods of production and

17 distribution even after decades of historical

18 data and proof, evidence that we have, that

19 attempts to change policies and establish new

20 laws within the structure of our economy have

21 been largely dismissed, ignored or even fought

22 against by the largest and most powerful

23 institutions of society, namely the financial

24 sector and in this case, the industrial fossil

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 407 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 fuels sector.

3 Now, I’m going to present a few points

4 here that can explain the structural flaws within

5 our very economy that if not looked at and

6 criticized, will ensure continuing levels of

7 environmental and social degradation over time

8 that, by current estimates, you know, we’ve heard

9 many times in this conference predict, a perfect

10 storm of ecological crises and catastrophe by

11 2050 which will also, like I mentioned, result in

12 social destabilization on a level unforeseen in

13 recent human history.

14 My first point is we have a global

15 economic mode of operation, a global system

16 that’s based on infinite growth, infinite

17 consumption. GDP growth by a certain percent

18 every year has to happen. That’s just something

19 that’s not even touched upon as taboo. Nobody can

20 even question that. How come? We have a consumer

21 model, meaning that consumption must continue at

22 a high rate, at a high level, in order to

23 maintain job creation and monetary circulation.

24 And our economy also is running based off of the

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2 competitive self interested incentive psychology,

3 meaning that one business versus another

4 business, country or individual versus another

5 country or individual. It’s all based upon

6 competing towards the goal of self interest

7 whether that self interest is individual or that

8 self interest is the interest of a company such a

9 as fossil fuel company.

10 Those things are not even touched upon

11 at a structural level. They’re not looked at.

12 Given the fact that a market economy, our market

13 economy requires constant consumption in order to

14 maintain demand for human employment and to

15 further economic growth, the question is, is

16 there a structural incentive to reduce resource

17 use by biodiversity loss or improve ecological

18 sustainability in the world?

19 We all know right now that consumption

20 is a fuel of our economy, right? Everyone is

21 considered a consumer, not even a human being,

22 we’re all consumers at an economic level. So if

23 monetary circulation slows down, we know that

24 when monetary circulation slows down, jobs are

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2 lost and people suffer economically. Why do we

3 have a labor for income, monetary based market

4 system to begin with? That should be the question

5 on everybody’s mind right now. It’s very clear to

6 anyone who does research on this that money and

7 markets are simply methods of managing and

8 dealing with scarcity. So people have to work

9 jobs in order to gain income and purchase so-

10 called scarce resources.

11 But this, based on my scientific

12 research and the organization that I work with,

13 these are very old and outdated modes of

14 operation that are simply not compatible with the

15 current technologically advanced world of

16 automation and advanced production techniques,

17 production and distribution techniques that are

18 far more sustainable are at our disposal but are

19 not being used because they’re incompatible with

20 our mode of economic operation.

21 We no longer have an issue of scarcity

22 and can reach a global abundance for the entire

23 human population in a highly sustainable manner

24 if we use the right methods. If we use the right

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 410 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 up to date methods of production, distribution,

3 and recycling and energy harnessing. We have

4 these things at our disposal, but like I said,

5 that is a completely different topic that I mean

6 I don’t have time to really go into.

7 But the point I’m trying to bring is

8 that our economy is no longer scarcity based but

9 consumption based, meaning that on an individual,

10 community, global level people, businesses and

11 larger older institutions must maintain

12 inefficient methods of operation that are more

13 affordable on a monetary level that can bring

14 income, but are highly unsustainable on an

15 ecological level.

16 These two things are not compatible and

17 that these larger institutions, such as the

18 fossil fuel industry are simply operating exactly

19 by the rules of the economic system. They’re

20 doing everything they’re supposed to be doing

21 with our economic system that we cannot expect

22 people and institutions to behave against their

23 own interests. And let me give you an example

24 what I mean.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 411 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 In the United States, the EPA, the

3 Environmental Protection Agency is constantly

4 attacked by business interests that are worried

5 about a loss of economic growth and income, such

6 as the 2013 article by Wall Street Journal that

7 said, the EPA’s latest threat to economic growth

8 which is basically attacking the EPA for its

9 interests to improve air quality standards and

10 they’re right. The Wall Street Journal is right.

11 If the EPA does push forward with these methods,

12 many jobs and billions and billions of dollars

13 will be lost. And that is simply what happens

14 when waste reduction and technical efficiency is

15 applied to our current system.

16 So what I’m trying to say is even in the

17 developing world and other countries, they’re all

18 pushing for economic growth using inefficient,

19 dirty, old industrial methods that will not bring

20 about environmental sustainability, but they’re

21 going to create jobs, absolutely and they’re

22 going to create economic growth, yeah. But, like

23 I said, it has nothing to do with environmental

24 sustainability.

Geneva Worldwide, Inc. 256 West 38 th Street, 10 th Floor, New York, NY 10018 Page 412 1 Standing Committee Environmental Conservation, 5/17/2019

2 The business establishments of the world

3 today are engaging in simply a stonewalling

4 mentality whenever they’re presented with an

5 alternative, industrial and transportation

6 methods. Another good example, that our economy

7 is clashing constantly with the idea of

8 sustainability. 2010 convention for biodiversity

9 loss report was stating among many nations that

10 came together saying none of the goals that they

11 set in place in 2002 for environmental

12 sustainability were reached, none of their goals,

13 not one of the goals. Why? Because, based on

14 their quote, sustainability efforts receive very

15 little consideration compared to economic and

16 industrial development.

17 And of course they won’t get any

18 consideration because like I said, our economy is

19 based on consumption, continual infinite

20 consumption and let’s face it. Older industrial

21 methods, such as oil plants are actually more

22 economically beneficial. They employ more people,

23 compared to renewable energy. I’m not saying that

24 jobs cannot be created by renewable energy but

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2 maintenance of a solar panel system or any other

3 geothermal system is much easier than industrial

4 based oil plant.

5 And as another example of how as we

6 become more technologically advanced, in terms of

7 efficiency and sustainability, we will be really

8 removing jobs and hence economic growth. But what

9 should we be chasing, economic growth and job

10 creation or actual environmental preservation?

11 Which are the things we should be going after?

12 The economic systems is intrinsically

13 inefficient, like I stated. It is consumption

14 based and that is never going to change, until we

15 actually criticize the actual economy, the

16 underpinning mechanism of our economy. If that’s

17 not looked at, nothing’s ever going to change.

18 I’m not going to expect any change to happen, any

19 long-term relevant change.

20 So bottom line, there is actually no

21 economic incentive towards sustainability. No

22 economic incentive. At least not on any larger

23 order long-term change. Not to mention, how our

24 economy, since it is also driven by the ethos of

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2 competitive self interest, leads to socially

3 destabilizing levels of inequality. Inequality

4 which, by the way, not only generates tremendous

5 levels of poverty and disenfranchisement of the

6 lower classes, but also perpetuates powerful

7 institutions, such as the fossil fuel industry

8 that, due to their power and influence, and the

9 fact that we have a market economy where

10 everything is up for sale, right? Everything is

11 up for sale, they can constantly stifle attempts

12 at changing our energy infrastructure to

13 renewables. Because they want to maintain their

14 income, they want to maintain their economic

15 relevance through lobbying and other methods that

16 are simply not at the disposal of the vast

17 majority of the population.

18 The lower classes are also, as

19 mentioned, subject to many of the negative

20 retroactions caused by our economic system. There

21 is a structural, economic bigotry that is not

22 race based, but actually effects the poor and

23 economically irrelevant populations of the world,

24 such as pollution, such as all the other things

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2 that are exposed to on a daily basis.

3 So again, I’m not here to impose blame

4 on individuals, corporations or government

5 administrations but rather see all of the

6 environmental devastation as an expected result

7 of continuing this mode of economic operation.

8 Now there’s two things we can compare,

9 market efficiency versus technical efficiency or

10 industrial efficiency. On one side, market

11 efficiency is about job creation and growth.

12 Whatever it is that creates jobs and keeps

13 economic growth going will be pretty much chased

14 on a market level versus technical efficiency,

15 which is simply meeting human needs in the most

16 efficient and sustainable manner, I’m afraid to

17 say it, but these two things are not compatible.

18 They are not compatible.

19 Now, are there solutions? Yes, obviously

20 based on all the other people, amazing speakers

21 before me were talking about all these kind of

22 things we can do. There is simply no shortage of

23 solutions, technical solutions to our problems.

24 However, what I’m trying to point out is that we

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2 have no shortage of technical solutions. Our

3 problem is again our root socioeconomic

4 orientation. That is the main problem.

5 So, if I was to present a few solutions,

6 first off we could be chasing localization. You

7 know, so like local communities allowing access

8 to renewable energy and local food production

9 that would actually give a lot more power to the

10 local community versus not even knowing where

11 your food’s coming from, not knowing what kind of

12 environmental devastation’s brought from having

13 bananas shipped from somewhere else. We could

14 actually have very efficient and advanced forms

15 of indoor agriculture, hydroponic, aeroponic

16 methods that are simply not being used right now

17 because they’re not profitable.

18 Another one, we can actually switch from

19 access, from an access society to a ownership

20 society. So what does that mean? Given our

21 current technological advances methods, we could

22 have a car that’s driven by GPS satellite going

23 around the clock like an Uber but not operated by

24 human, pick people up and drop them off somewhere

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2 else, whereas right now, every car we use, we

3 have one billion cars on this planet. Every car

4 we use, sits there for 80 percent of its life

5 span, a car is simply sitting there rotting away

6 when it could be used by somebody else. So why

7 don’t we have a socialization form of like a

8 public library of tools or devices that can

9 actually be used by a local community that can be

10 much more environmental sustainable, and as well

11 efficient. Because people who cannot afford these

12 things, don’t have access to them, but ownership

13 is an extremely inefficient method, extremely,

14 because it restricts access to people who could

15 actually use those things.

16 And lastly, one thing I’ll say is, you

17 know, recent talks in the political spectrum

18 talking about automation and how it is reducing

19 jobs, we should be chasing automation as much as

20 possible as long as it benefits every member of

21 society. So because of automation’s benefits, in

22 order to alleviate much of the economic stress on

23 the lower class populations, we could actually be

24 implementing UBI or even, I don’t know, on a

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2 community level, we could have some kind of

3 referendum we could actually alleviate economic

4 stress on people. Because when people have more

5 financial flexibility, they will make better

6 choices that are going to end up in accruing to

7 better environmental outcomes. You know, people

8 in today’s world, we’re talking about plastic and

9 all these different things that we can do to

10 minimize our use, most people in this population

11 of the planet, of the United States, are so

12 economically stressed out, they’re so worried

13 about their day to day struggles, environmental

14 sustainability is not even on their thought.

15 Why would it be? Caring about things in

16 this world? Caring about things in this world is

17 actually a luxury. It’s a luxury. That’s why we

18 are here. That’s why we’re here talking about

19 these things, but no one else does. 99.9 percent

20 of the population are worried about other things

21 because our economy does not give them the

22 opportunity to even think about other things.

23 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Sure.

24 MR. JAMEH: That’s why. There’s no,

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2 there is no resource of time, emotions or energy

3 for people to care about anything. Caring is a

4 luxury and if that’s what our economy is doing,

5 then I’m sorry, this economy’s got to go. We’ve

6 got to change it if that’s what it’s doing to

7 human behavior, it’s got to go. I’m sorry. It’s

8 completely B.S.

9 Now, lastly, like I said before,

10 technical capability, physical possibility is

11 completely bypassed and looked at -- it’s

12 completely shoved underneath compared to

13 financial affordability. It’s always about oh,

14 what can we financially afford? Yeah, we can’t

15 afford renewable energy, we can’t afford better

16 food production, yeah, we can afford to go to

17 wars and devastate communities all over the world

18 using our military, but can’t afford taking care

19 of our own population, which by the way if we

20 were to actually chase -- if we were to chase

21 environmentally sustainable modes of energy

22 production, guess what, all the wars would go

23 away because let’s not get it twisted.

24 All these wars, all these wars globally

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2 are resource wars. They’re all resource and

3 energy wars. We would end all of our energy wars

4 and get all our military troops back home if we

5 actually had energy productions that are

6 sustainable. We have thousands of modes of

7 production right now, energy production that are

8 simply being bypassed because they’re not

9 financially affordable. They will remove jobs,

10 they will remove economic growth. Well I’m sorry,

11 like I said, this economy is an insane economy.

12 Now, simply stating what we need to do

13 or expressing outrage without addressing

14 historically structural flaws of our economy and

15 a method of how to get there, arrive at these

16 solutions will not achieve our goals as a

17 society. So I’m not here to impose moral blame on

18 corporations that are doing things simply

19 economically in their own advantage and their own

20 benefit. I’m not here to impose moral blame. I’m

21 here simply to say ethics and morality need to

22 take a backseat, as much as I hate to say it, to

23 technical and objective methodology of the

24 scientific method applied towards the economy.

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2 Our economy is not in any way looked at

3 under the scientific lens, you know. We need to

4 look at things from a scientific method and I

5 hope in future discussions if I can come here and

6 talk here again, I can actually present an

7 economic model that is actually about human

8 sustainability and fulfillment and happiness as

9 well as environment maintenance. But those are

10 completely outside of our scope of our given

11 time. But again, thank you so much for having me

12 here today and again, I work with an organization

13 called the Zeitgeist Movement and we have, we

14 published our own book recently called The New

15 Human Rights Movement which basically has

16 solutions as well as it exposes all the

17 structural flaws of our economy and presents

18 really, really viable transitionary solutions as

19 well as long-term solutions for our global

20 society. Because you know, as a society, we need

21 to think globally about our problems, not locally

22 anymore. We have to think locally and globally

23 because that’s the only way we’re going to arrive

24 at environmental and social sustainability. Thank

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2 you so much for having me. I appreciate your

3 time. [applause]

4 ASSEMBLY MEMBER ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

5 for your comments. You have given us much to

6 think about. Thank you for that. I believe you

7 also have wrapped up our day. So many of your

8 thoughts are on a scale that embraces everything

9 we’ve heard earlier and that’s very helpful. We

10 are at the end of today’s hearing. I just want to

11 say thank you to the wonderful staff that I have

12 behind me here. They are just amazing and thank

13 you for all you do to help this committee to

14 function. This draws our day to an end and thank

15 you everyone who is still here, but especially to

16 everyone who is still here. Thank you for

17 contributing. This is the end of our hearing

18 today. Thank you all very much.

19 MS. WILSON: Thank you.

20 MR. JAMEH: Thank you so much.

21 MR. JEREMIAH: Thank you for your

22 leadership.

23 (The public hearing concluded at 7:00

24 p.m.)

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CERTIFICATE OF ACCURACY

I, Gregory Woltman, certify that the foregoing transcript of Public Hearing on Climate Change on

May 17, 2019 was prepared using the required transcription equipment and is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

Certified By

Date: June 11, 2019

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